OT - The search for the perfect pop song
 

Okay, I know from previous musical threads here that true pop music isn’t many people’s cup of tea. I’m sure there are some people here who will confess to really liking it … but for each one of them there are ten who will say “All pop music is crap, and you couldn’t make me listen to it even if you attached electrodes to my genitals!” If that’s all we can get from you on the topic – then please, kindly move along, there’s nothing for you to see here.





…okay.

Now, where were we? Pop music. Specifically, pop songs. I think there’s art even in such a medium. (And no, I don’t count myself as a true fan of pop music)

What is the definition of a pop song? I don’t know – but I reckon it’s a little like “pornography,” where most everyone’s best working definition seems to be “I don’t know exactly, but I know it when I see it.”

What makes for a great pop song? I don’t know. In my mind, I think it has to be pretty approachable – it can’t be the sort of geeked-up political, metaphorical, obtuse, philosophical, emo-driven crap that overthinkers like me ordinarily tend toward. No, a true pop song is for everyone. It should have a certain catchiness, maybe a little storyline, or at least a simple message that we can easily understand. Again – it’s tough to get a handle one, but I hope you’re with me so far.

Ideally, the value of a great pop song lies in the song itself, not just the performance of the song, which is really an amalgamation of the song but also the musical arrangement, the instruments chosen, the singer’s peculiarities, and the production approach. All those things, in my mind, make a record – but really, I’d rather talk about a song here. You ought to be able to read the lyrics, and get a sense of the song itself – even without having to depend on a certain backbeat, or a particular inflection from the singer, or that sort of thing.

Not that the performance is irrelevant, but it shouldn’t be everything. I think of a song like (fairly random example here) “Don’t Stop Believing” as performed by Journey. On paper, just the lyrics, I don’t think that it’s really all that much of a song. The well-known performance, however, is definitely one of the most beloved pop singles of the last few decades – I’d submit that it’s a great record, but not a great song. But maybe that’s just me. Perhaps my own karaoke rendition would have you rocking just as well as theirs.

So, without further ado… have any thoughts about truly great pop songs? Maybe even the greatest pop song? Maybe even… dare we say it… the perfect pop song?

I humbly submit, for your consideration


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I'm a Believer
By Neil Diamond

I thought love was only true in fairy tales
Meant for someone else but not for me.
Love was out to get me
That's the way it seemed.
Disappointment haunted all my dreams.

Then I saw her face, now I'm a believer
Not a trace of doubt in my mind.
I'm in love, I'm a believer!
I couldn't leave her if I tried.

I thought love was more or less a given thing,
Seems the more I gave the less I got.
What's the use in tryin'?
All you get is pain.
When I needed sunshine I got rain.

Then I saw her face, now I'm a believer
Not a trace of doubt in my mind.
I'm in love, I'm a believer!
I couldn't leave her if I tried.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Yes, this comes from two recent exposures to the Smash Mouth remake, done for (I believe) and used in the movie Shrek.

What can I say? I think this song, as it is there on paper, fits the bill for me awfully well. It fits into absolutely perfect meter, the rhymes are immaculate (and not a single one is the all-too-common “painfully forced rhyme” that pervades bad pop songs), and the contents is… well, right on target for a good pop song.

The original version by Diamond was fine, but he didn’t bring quite the right energy to it that The Monkees could. (Isn’t that just too often the case for Neil Diamond?) I guess anything positive I’d want to say about the Monkees (and that really isn’t all that much) I could say as well about Smash Mouth (perhaps our modern equivalent?) and I enjoy their version just about as much (and thought it worked very well in Shrek).

Wonderful song, I submit. Great art? Probably not. Winner in this particular contest? You be the judge.

I trust you get the idea…

Smash Mouth, the modern equivalent to the Monkees? In a word, no.

Any of Madonna's big hits.

Walk Like An Egyptian

Dirty Laundry

Jump (Van Halen... or you could go with Kris Kross...)

Can't Touch This

Girls Just Wanna Have Fun

I dunno... those are the first things that pop into my head when I think "pop song"

Dola... maybe a better question would be "perfect pop artist." Lots of singers/bands have songs that reach #1 on the pop charts... but you wouldn't ordinarily consider them pop artists.

OT, but the first tape I ever owned was The Best of The Monkees. I would come home from school and watch their show on Nick every day, so my bro and sis bought it for me for one birthday.

I think I still have that sucker in a box somewhere...

I think I'd have to go with Madonna's Like a Prayer.

And there has to be more than lyrics or you are just looking at poems. I don't really know enough about music to be able to picture the music of a song separate from the performance of it.

A 'quik' comment...

I think - or at least the way I've read your explanation - that you're putting too much emphasis on the lyrics of the song. What you see "on paper" is really the last thing that makes a song great. The melody has to be first and foremost, and you can't really get that from the lyrics. The lyrics can turn a very good song into a great one, but the best lyrics in the world can't turn a bad song into a good one.

That said, this is an interesting topic. For me, the whole 'pornography' part of it is whether the song is being performed by a group of musicians as opposed to an "entertainer" - my term for the Britney Spearses of the world. Singers who show up, let someone else write and perform the music, and spend more time on choreography than the music. That type of 'pop' I have absolute disdain for. And if that's what you're looking for, then I'm at a loss to describe a 'good' pop song.

However, if you're talking about pop/rock - the kind written and performed by actual musicians - I'm a big fan of well-crafted pop music. The problem is, very little of it these days can be considered 'pop,' as in 'popular.' And most of the songs that come to my mind are (a) not well known; and (b) probably a bit too sophisticated either in music or lyrical content, to fit what you are looking for.

However, since I want to play along, I'll throw out a song that I think fits what you are looking for, although I'll admit it probably isn't the type of 'pop' song you're looking for, and it may not be my #1 choice, but just oof the top of my head:

Jellyfish's Baby's Coming Back


I knew that when I saw her
that my life would soon move over from the fast lane
gone would be the days of all by drinkin and my carrying on
but when I settled down
the party king uncrowned
this stubborn memory hadn't faded
too many dumb mistakes
and all the grief it makes
left nothing else to be debated

and if you say that you understand then you're lyin'
but if you figure that I'm alright now I can't deny it

Baby's coming back
baby's coming back
and I'm on my best behavior
I can't take it anymore
I just woke up on the floor today
I've long run out of my last chances but she's on her way

If I had a dollar for every single time I fought her
I'd buy a handgun
but that couldn't shoot away
the bull's eye that she made on my heart

and if I sound like a beaten man well I guess so
but on her way is the sweetest prize and I can't let go

What I told her on the telephone was that I'd been so bad
I wouldn't blame her if she mowed down these wild oats I'd sown
but when she said she'd give me one more chance
I said knock three times when you arrive

Baby's coming back...


This song's got it all - catchy, sing-song verses and chorus, a well-known and easily digestible storyline, some clever lyrics to boot...

I could probably nominate a dozen Jellyfish songs, but most of them have lyrics that are too briilliant, and subject matter that is to obtuse, to be fully digested by the masses. But this one I think works.

Yeah, see... it's gotta be popular. And I've never heard of these guys. Any relation to Green Jelly? Those guys had a pretty good pop song once...

How about something from the King of Pop himself - say, Michael Jackson's Billie Jean?

Were looking for great pop songs, not the most well-known great pop songs. There's plenty of 'pop' music out there that no one has heard of - that doesn't make it any less 'pop' music, just because it's not popular. But maybe QS can clarify - are we talking about songs that are popular, or 'pop music' as a genre?

Like I said, if that's the criteria, I think I'll have to sit on the sidelines for this one.

Best pop artists of all time: The Beatles.

I'd throw out songs by the Beach Boys, if more bands had covered them. Pure pop. Catchy tune, upbeat positive lyrics. Not deep or really thought provoking. Appeal to a broad base of people. That's kinda how I picture pop.

Early Beatles (Love me do, I wanna hold your hand, Hard days night) might have some good candidates. Perhaps some Elvis. Jailhouse rock and many of his other "movie" hits. Carl Perkins and Blue Suede shoes. Those are some older ones that come to mind. Twist and Shout.

Later examples might be R.E.M. - End of the World as we Know it, What's the Frequency Kenneth and other later R.E.M stuff (drawing a blank on song titles); the Police - Wrapped around my finger, Every Breath you take, Don't Stand (so close to me); Tom Petty - most anything he did solo.

Probably not as specific as you'd hoped, but perhaps it'll get others thinking.

I liked Beat It and Smooth Criminal better, but that's just me.

No, Billie Jean was the best MJ song bar none! Fonzie wins!

Dude, were you even alive when the Thriller album came out?

Beat It spawned the most popular satire Weird Al Yankovic ever made, and it probably was singularly responsible for his career taking off...

Frankin judges pop songs by how well they translate to Wierd Al parodies.

American Pie, Beat it, and Smells Like Teen Spirit (wasn't that the name of the Nirvannah song W. A. did) are his favorites.

I actually preferred Beat It myself, but as a "pop" song I think Billie Jean is technically better. It is more melodic, establishes a more intense emotional tone, and has fewer of QS's "forced" rhymes than Beat It. Still, some of the lyrics are phrased and/or sung awkwardly which, while providing some crypticness, makes the song's full comprehension a bit less accessible. Thus, I'm not sure it is the best submission for this competition, but I felt something by Michael Jackson needed to be nominated.

This gets me thinking... we could totally create an objective ratings system to determine the best pop song of all time; assigning points for certain bits of notoriety the song received. Something like the following:


Tops the Billboard Pop Charts: 10 points per week
Covered by another band: 50 points per cover
Satirized by Wierd Al: 100 points
Appears in a movie: 50 points per movie
Appears in a TV commercial: 50 points per commercial

An excellent example of a pop band, I agree. California Girls might be a good nominee from them.


I was also thinking of Wrapped Around My Finger and King of Pain as potential nominees. Both are classic pop songs.

That's a fucking good idea!

With your points ranking, the winner would be : My way

QS, to answer a part of your question, I think it has to do with the well-known "contemporary music hook". Probably in all of the popular 'pop' songs, there is a hook or two that everyone wants to hear over and over again. It's that hook that makes a song popular, imo. I put very, very little emphasis on lyrics - partly because of my hearing but mostly is that I believe the human voice is just another instrument. It doesn't matter what the words say (or mean) but how well they match to the pitch, tone and sound of the melody.

Why does Fritz have a little plus sign next to his name when I look at the "Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread:" list?

Oh, and I'm wondering why there's no love for Hansen so far...

because I am IT, dumbass

There is no contest. Best pop song ever is "Bridge over Troubled Water."

I would submit the following:

Sugar Sugar
( The Archies )

Sugar, ah, honey, honey
You are my candy girl
And you've got me wanting you
Honey, ah, sugar, sugar
You are my candy girl
And you've got me wanting you

I just can't believe the loveliness of loving you
(I just can't believe it's true)
I just can't believe the one to love this feeling to
(I just can't believe it's true)

Ah, sugar, ah, honey, honey
You are my candy girl
And you've got me wanting you
Honey, ah, sugar, sugar
You are my candy girl
And you've got me wanting you

When I kissed you, girl, I knew how sweet a kiss could be
(I know how sweet a kiss can be)
Like the summer sunshine pour your sweetness over me
(Pour your sweetness over me)

Sugar, pour a little sugar on it, honey
Pour a little sugar on it, baby
I'm gonna make your life so sweet, yeah yeah yeah!
Pour a little sugar on it oh, yeah!
Pour a little sugar on it, honey
Pour a little sugar on it, baby
I'm gonna make your life so sweet, yeah yeah yeah!
Pour a little sugar on it, honey!

Sugar, ah, honey, honey
You are my candy girl
And you've got me wanting you
Honey, ah, sugar sugar
You are my candy girl
And you've got me wanting you

Sugar, ah, honey, honey
You are my candy girl
And you've got me wanting you
Honey, ah, sugar sugar
You are my candy girl
And you've got me wanting you

if it is not what I posed above, it is:

The Supremes---Baby Love

Ooh-ooh

Baby love, my baby love,
I need ya, oh, how I need ya
But all you do is treat me bad,
Break my heart and leave me sad
Tell me, what did I do wrong
To make you stay away so long?

'Cause, baby love, my baby love,
Been missin' ya, miss kissin' ya
Instead of breakin' up (don't throw our love away)
Let's do some kissin' and makin' up (don't throw our love away)
Don't throw our love away
In my arms, why don't you stay?

Need ya, need ya
(Baby love, ooh, baby love)

INSTRUMENTAL BRIDGE

Baby love, my baby love,
Why must we be separate, my love?
All of my whole life through (don't throw our love away)
I never loved no one but you (don't throw our love away)
Why do you do me like you do?
I get this need (baby)

Ooh, ooh

Need to hold you once again, my love,
Feel your warm embrace, my love
Don't throw our love away (don't throw our love away)
Please don't do me this way (don't throw our love away)
Not happy like I used to be
Loneliness has got the best of me

My love, my baby love,
I need ya, oh, how I need ya
Why do you do me like you do (don't throw our love away)
After I've been true to you, (don't throw our love away)
So deep in love with you?
Baby baby (baby) ooh

'Til it's hurtin' me, 'til it's hurtin' me
Ooh (baby love, ooh), baby love
Don't throw our love away (don't throw our love away)
Don't throw our love away (don't throw our love away)
(fade out)

The check can be mailed to my home address.

From the exiled sjshaw:

Come On Eileen

( Dexys Midnight Runners )

(Come on Eileen!)
(Come on Eileen!)

Poor old Johnny Ray
Sounded sad upon the radio
He moved a million hearts in mono
Our mothers cried and sang along and who'd blame them?
Now you're grown, so grown, now I must say more than ever
Go toora loora toora loo rye aye
And we can sing just like our fathers ....

Come on Eileen! Well, I swear (what he means)
At this moment, you mean everything
With you in that dress, my thoughts I confess
Verge on dirty ......
Ah, come on Eileen!

(Come on Eileen!)
(Come on Eileen!)

These people round here wear beaten down eyes
Sunk in smoke dried faces
They're so resigned to what their fate is
But not us, no not us
We are far too young and clever
Go toora loora toora loo rye aye
Eileen, I'll sing this tune forever

Come on, Eileen! Well, I swear (what he means)
Ah come on, let's take off everything
That pretty red dress .... Eileen (tell him yes)
Ah, come on! Come on Eileen!!!

Come on Eileen! Well, I swear (what he means)
At this moment, you mean everything

Come on, Eileen, taloora aye
Come on, Eileen, taloora aye
Come on, Eileen, taloora aye
Come on, Eileen, taloora aye
Come on, Eileen, taloora aye
Come on, Eileen, taloora aye

Go toora loora toora loo rye aye

Come on Eileen! Well, I swear (what he means)
At this moment, you mean everything
With you in that dress, my thoughts I confess
Verge on dirty ......
Ah, come on Eileen!

Come on, Eileen! Well, I swear (what he means)
Ah come on, let's take off everything
That pretty red dress .... Eileen (tell him yes)
Ah, come on! Come on Eileen!!!

Come on Eileen! Well, I swear (what he means)
At this moment, you mean everything

Come on Eileen! Well, I swear (what he means)
At this moment, you mean everything

I tend to think of Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody as more of a rock song, but I suppose it qualifies as a pop song as well. This song has it all: nihilism, a man sentenced to die for murder (a plot we can all relate to), tempo changes, angry mobs arguing about his release, abundant use of falsetto, and an operatic bridge (containing the word "Beelzebub"!) which bursts out into one of the best guitar riffs in the history of the universe. What could be better?

Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody

Is this the real life ?
Is this just fantasy ?
Caught in a landslide
No escape from reality
Open your eyes
Look up to the skies and see
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy
Because I'm easy come, easy go
A little high, little low
Anyway the wind blows, doesn't really matter to me, to me

Mama, just killed a man
Put a gun against his head
Pulled my trigger, now he's dead
Mama, life had just begun
But now I've gone and thrown it all away
Mama, ooo
Didn't mean to make you cry
If I'm not back again this time tomorrow
Carry on, carry on, as if nothing really matters

Too late, my time has come
Sends shivers down my spine
Body's aching all the time
Goodbye everybody - I've got to go
Gotta leave you all behind and face the truth
Mama, ooo - (anyway the wind blows)
I don't want to die
I sometimes wish I'd never been born at all

I see a little silhouetto of a man
Scaramouch, scaramouch will you do the fandango
Thunderbolt and lightning - very very frightening me
Gallileo, Gallileo,
Gallileo, Gallileo,
Gallileo Figaro - magnifico

But I'm just a poor boy and nobody loves me
He's just a poor boy from a poor family
Spare him his life from this monstrosity
Easy come easy go - will you let me go
Bismillah! No - we will not let you go - let him go
Bismillah! We will not let you go - let him go
Bismillah! We will not let you go - let me go
Will not let you go - let me go (never)
Never let you go - let me go
Never let me go - ooo
No, no, no, no, no, no, no -
Oh mama mia, mama mia, mama mia let me go
Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me
For me
For me

So you think you can stone me and spit in my eye
So you think you can love me and leave me to die
Oh baby - can't do this to me baby
Just gotta get out - just gotta get right outta here

Ooh yeah, ooh yeah
Nothing really matters
Anyone can see
Nothing really matters - nothing really matters to me

Anyway the wind blows...

Because you have him on your "Buddy List"...

I hate to admit this, but Fritz listed my all time favorite 80's pop song! Come on Eileen by Dexy's Midnight Runners...I owned that on a 45 at one point in my youth (a long, long time ago!!!)

Oh... duh.

have I mentioned you have the prettiest eyes?

dola, why would you hate to admit it?

dola

it wast me anyhow

Sorry if i was unclear above. I'm trying to separate the concepts of "song" and "record." If you're focusing on best-selling singles, weeks on the pop chart, melodies, and the like -- you're answering a different question than I'm asking. It's a fine debate, just not the one I thought I was starting.

Also, there's a difference (as I intend it) between "a song that has been released in the rock/pop genre" and "a pop song." As much as I love the song Bridge Over Troubled Water, it's not at all what I'm talking about here - and even Billie Jean, I would argue, is too sophisticated to be a true pop song.

Fritz is on my wavelength. These are pop songs.

But carry on... it's an interesting discussion, regardless of what I think/thought.

I find Hansons Mmmm-Bop to be a very good, high quality pop song. Good lyrics, good musicianship, a hell of a hook and a great melody.

Bingo. And these days, the "hook" isn't even a line from the song. In some cases, it's just a cute little noise that gets skillfully mixed in. That recent Usher hit was a perfect example -- the little whistle noise was one of several clever hooks in that song.

I honestly believe that for a lot of thse big hits, you could swap in different lyrics and even different music. Put that hook on a completely different song, mix it in well (not an easy thing, by the way), and you'd have the same level of hit.

I propose "Denise" by Fountains of Wayne as the perfect pop song.

Cool, jangly guitars - check
"Sha la la" harmonies - check
About a girl - check
Moderately non-sensical lyrics - check

Fountains of Wayne - "Denise"

I know this girl named Denise
She makes me weak at the knees
She drives a lavender Lexus
She lives in Queens but her dad lives in Texas

[sha la la la la la la]
When she holds me
[sha la la la la la la]
I can’t help myself
[sha la la la la la la]
Won’t you tell me
Do you love me Denise?
Whoa-oh
Do you love me Denise?
Oh baby tell me please
[do ya do ya ah-oh do ya do ya]

I heard she used to be married
She listens to Puff Daddy
She works at Liberty Travel
She got a heart made of gravel

[sha la la la la la la]
She controls me
[sha la la la la la la]
She can’t help herself
[sha la la la la la la]
Won’t you tell me
Do you love me Denise?
Whoa-oh
Do you love me Denise?
Oh baby tell me please
[do ya do ya ah-oh do ya do ya]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/cl...313598-0278251

I have always been partial to Chuck Berry's 'Memphis' as recorded by Johnny Rivers.

The guitar has an very very slight growl and menace that added just enough of a blues/rock edge. The lyrics are Berry at his best, suggesting your typical lost-love song until the end when it becomes clear that he's singing about his daughter. The thing that pushes this song over the edge for me is the ultra-sweet 60s technique of overdubbing a 'party atmosphere' complete with people hootin' and a-hollerin' in the background and the sounds of highballs and ice cubes clanking about.

Long distance information, give me Memphis Tennessee
Help me find a party that tried to get in touch with me
She could not leave a number but I know who placed the call
'cause my uncle took a message and he wrote it on the wall

Help me, information, get in touch with my Marie
She's the only one who'd call me here from Memphis Tennessee
Her home is on the south side, high upon a ridge
Just a half a mile from the Mississippi bridge

Last time I saw Marie she was wavin' me goodbye
With "hurry-home" drops on her cheek that trickled from her eye
But we were pulled apart because her mom did not agree
And tore apart our happy home in Memphis Tennessee

Help me, information, more than that I cannot add
Only that I miss her and all the fun we had
Marie is only six years old, information please
Try to put me through to her in Memphis Tennessee



Aside form that personal fave, 'Come on Eileen' is an awesome fucking song that gets discredited too much because of the whole 80s kitsch.

Good choice. That's a great song. I think you and I are on the same wavelength.

I've always thought of pop music as the kind that got played on the pop music stations and made the pop music lists (e.g. Billboard) regardless of genre - rock, country, gospel, even heavy metal have equal chances of being pop songs. But music seems more fractured these days, and I'm not sure my definition applies anymore.

I'm not quite sure what QS is looking for, so I won't comment on that, but what I look for in a pop song is the same as I look for in any song - clever lyrics, memorable melody, and grabby hooks.

It's better that way. My discussion topic wasn't as engaging as this one is.

Love grows where my rosemarry goes

What, no Pink Floyd's Several Species of Small Furry Creatures in a Cave Grooving with a Pict? You all are such cretins.

Katrina and the Waves: "Walking on Sunshine". Peppy Poppy Good stuff.

Paging: Elton John

Generally speaking I don't pay too much attention to lyrics, but when it comes to fave pop songs I'd have to go with a Beatles song, Michelle. One of my fave songs.