[Edward64]

This section is in response to post #5.

As mentioned earlier ...

A quick caveat. I read a lot of links and, as you can imagine, most of them were from the more right wing, fringe groups. However, I concede that I did not research the veracity of all of their examples (or if taken out of context) but this does not mean they did not happen or are not true. So take it for what its worth

With that said, one of the central questions asked is:

A couple people mentioned "there is no curriculum for "sexual orientation or gender identity and therefore why is the law is needed" or stated another way "What discussions do you think teachers are having with the third graders that should be left to the parents?"

From my research, I did not find curriculum for FL and 3rd grade that discussed "sexual orientation or gender identity". However, there is plenty of evidence there is curriculum for middle-school and up in other states and this is what DeSantis is leveraging to support his bill.

Originally Posted by miami_fan

This one is actually an important one to start with. Here is a Politico article about this that is a bit more balanced.

How Republicans in blue New Jersey are fueling a new debate over sex ed - POLITICO

I went to the NJ Board of Education website. There is no requirement for first graders. The requirements are for the end of 2nd grade. You are more that welcome to look at all of them yourself. Here is the one I think is most applicable for this discussion.

In your politico link, it has this quote

...By fifth grade, teachers should “explain common human sexual development and the role of hormones (e.g., romantic and sexual feelings, masturbation, mood swings, timing of pubertal onset)” and second graders should be able to “discuss the range of ways people express their gender and how gender-role stereotypes may limit behavior.”

The Republican uproar was caused less by those standards than the sample lesson plans that are available to help school districts meet the state guidelines. There is some truth at the molten-hot core of Republicans’ argument. The proposed lesson plans that sparked the controversy came from an advocacy group, Advocates for Youth, with a stated left-leaning progressive mission to “shift the current cultural paradigm in which we live from one that too often stigmatizes youth and youth sexual development to one that embraces youth as partners and recognizes sexuality as normal and healthy.”

Schepisi pointed out on Twitter that there are relatively few sample lesson plans offered by advocacy groups that comply with the state standard requirements. Schools, she said, may “feel compelled to pick from the limited menu of options that are currently available.”

I can easily believe NJ finally approved curriculum is I would consider appropriate. However, I can also easily believe there were more activist/progressive (?) groups that wanted more/different curriculum than what was approved as per the Politico comment.

Counter point

PolitiFact | No, a Texas school district did not adopt pornographic sex ed curriculum

The article I linked to had footnote [13] which refers to this article Exposed: Why Austin ISD Must Scrap Radical Sex-Ed Targeted at Young Children | Texas ValuesTexas Values . It does say the curriculum is for 3rd to 8th grade but the examples it shows does not explicitly say what grades they are from. If those shown examples were being taught to 3rd graders, yeah I'd say it was inappropriate.

I am not exactly sure what this is supposed to represent. They could be like Jazz , they could not be like Jazz. The link that in that paragraph seems to contradict the premise of the article.

That article had a link around the Jazz paragraph that led to How Illinois Schools Teach Preschoolers To Celebrate Transgenderism.

To get a sense of of what this public school district is teaching the children in its care, and what the new LGBT curriculum in all Illinois public schools will look like starting next school year, let’s look at a few selections from their preschool and kindergarten curriculum for this week. This is for children ages 3 to 5.

Teachers were given a lesson plan on slides that include movies and a teaching script to show and say to the children each day of the week. The children are shown, among other things, a video of someone reading aloud the book “Heather Has Two Mommies,” famous transgender teen Jazz Jenning reading his picture book “I Am Jazz,” a book read aloud on video called “My Princess Boy,” and the apparently highly awarded video below. The script tells teachers to use materials like these throughout the year, not just during LGBTQ+ Equity Week.

I've not read the 3 books mentioned below but looked up in Amazon (could only see the previews and will extrapolate from there). If these are actually being read to children 3 to 5, yeah, I would personally have an issue with this. Punt to the parents (give them the books if needed) to have these discussions.

I am Jazz. The story of a transgender child based on the real-life experience of Jazz Jennings, who has become a spokesperson for transkids everywhere

My Princess Boy. A heartwarming book about unconditional love and one remarkable family.

Dyson loves pink, sparkly things. Sometimes he wears dresses. Sometimes he wears jeans. He likes to wear his princess tiara, even when climbing trees. He’s a Princess Boy.

The one concern I have with this one is that unlike the first two articles, the authorities do not offer parents the option of opting out of the class. That is just as bad as banning the education altogether.

I do agree that parents should be able to opt out. So in a world without DeSantis and the FL Bill, maybe the reasonable compromise is all instructions on "sexual orientation or gender identity" should be clearly scheduled ahead of time where parents will be informed and can opt out.

Again I am not sure what the issue is. The little boy was already wearing fingernail polish. I am assuming the boy's parents were aware that he had fingernail polish. The teacher did not put it on him as far as we know. The teacher stepped in to protect the boy from possible bullying. Good on the teacher.

The issue is not just fingernail polish. The teach also said below. So yeah, that would worry me some.

Preschool teacher says she “loves taking every opportunity” to break down gender stereotypes and discuss all the genders including nonbinary

Same thing as above. What is the issue? LGBT students are following the example of LGBT teacher. In elementary school, one of the teachers I looked up to was the only Black male, non P.E. teacher in my school because he wore a tie to school every day just like my dad. That is kind of what kids do. I did not follow the dressing example of any of my teachers who were women.

My take on it is this is evidence of a activist teacher who is proudly proclaiming below. There is an inference that she is encouraging them (or asking them to explore) being "queer".

“A lot of them [students] are queer because I am queer” - 4th grade teacher

I ask again. What will migrate down to third graders. The existence of LGBTQ+ community?

I think it's been asked and answered. No, not the existence of LGBTQ community because I do not believe "instruct" = "mention".

I've also provided you with samplings (e.g. not saying "evidence" because I really haven't done a deep dive) of supposed curriculum/sample teachings that occur in 3rd grade (okay one example was 4th grade) albeit not in FL.

For middle-school, there is definitely more evidence of LGBTQ curriculum awareness & topics (and I have no problem with this because I do think it's age appropriate). If you want, I can google and find you these middle-school curriculum. And I'm pretty sure that while they are appropriate for middle-school, many are unlikely to be appropriate for 3rd graders.

What are the discussions that teachers are having with third graders that parents are not getting a chance to set the stage for?

Assuming my links & commentary above are accurate ... I'll just copy from above.

Exposed: Why Austin ISD Must Scrap Radical Sex-Ed Targeted at Young Children | Texas ValuesTexas Values . It does say the curriculum is for 3rd to 8th grade but the examples it shows does not explicitly say what grades they are from.

I am Jazz. The story of a transgender child based on the real-life experience of Jazz Jennings, who has become a spokesperson for transkids everywhere

My Princess Boy. A heartwarming book about unconditional love and one remarkable family.

Dyson loves pink, sparkly things. Sometimes he wears dresses. Sometimes he wears jeans. He likes to wear his princess tiara, even when climbing trees. He’s a Princess Boy.

Preschool teacher says she “loves taking every opportunity” to break down gender stereotypes and discuss all the genders including nonbinary

“A lot of them [students] are queer because I am queer” - 4th grade teacher (There is an inference that she is encouraging them (or asking them to explore) being "queer".)

I have 3 questions for you.

1) Do you believe the FL law "instruct" = "mention". In other words, the FL law does not allow a teacher to say "I am gay and am married to X"?

2) What is your issue with not allowing "instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity" for 3rd graders assuming gay and straight teachers are held to the same standards?

Are you okay with FL bill if held to same standards for gay & straight?

Or you do you think these topics should be discussed by a teacher (regardless of sexual orientation) in a 3rd grade classroom?

3) I've provided you examples in the corporate world where there are limitations on what can/should be said to others at a higher/lower and (importantly) same level. Although these restrictions are not legally binding, they are formal/informal corporate rules and employees may be punished/terminated for inappropriate communication. Why not in same setting in schools?