Werewolf CLXI - GAME OF THRONES: GAME OVER!! (See Post #2356--Page 48)

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

'Course, that was probably the problem WITH Varys/Littlefinger. Because I bloody well woulda lied my ass off if the situations were reversed, I really couldn't trust a whole lot they were saying.

Yeah, I think ideally a guy like Varys has to be made indispensable, so you're forced to sift through his words. Or in some way so useful or enticing that it's tempting to let him in on your secrets and get something from him.

Interestingly DT made me think that killing Clegane actually helped him out, and for a bit there I thought I had him on my side or in my debt. So he did screw with me at least.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Things may have worked out very, very differently had you been investing in your lands.

Had you benefited from the extra money & troops, you would have been more appealing later on, and I likely would have decided against screwing you over - as it stood, there was just too good of a chance to score a decisive victory over you (though it didn't pan out well, with some unfortunate rolls).

Yeah, my weakness was troops, so I would have ideally been investing from day one to try to make up that gap.

Which is why having a guy like JAG on your side was a big boon. I'm sure the two of you went through the rules carefully and figured out stuff like that and more importantly noticed things the other had missed.

[Autumn]

I wanted to say Coffee did a great job at cornering the market on power. But that can be dangerous (as he found out). I tried from early on to not press my luck early and make myself too much of a target. I think I waited a bit too long, but in general it was a decent strategy. I didn't go after Tywin for several days,f or instance, because I knew if I did I'd become the prime target. At the point I finally went ot cpature him Robb got him that afternoon.

Die rolls never really went my way except for one time. Both Robb and Balon got captured by other kings in wars I was in. The only time the dice liked me was when I lost my battle -- I had actually calculated that there was a very good chance things would go in my favor even by losing, and they did, with two kills coming from other kings, and Axell getting captured, allowing me to use Davos's ability.

[path12]

I thought the roleplaying in the game was about the best I've ever seen in one of these games. Everyone took to their character and it really enhanced the experience at least for me.

Bravo.

[Zinto]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I'll be interested to hear if Zinto would have really gone along, but it seemed like he would have if it came to that. I had decided to bend the knee to Balon if it meant defeating Robb and Renly. When it turned into choosing one of them to bend the knee to, I chose not to.

I was hoping that we could avoid bending the knee until the end but I am sure it would have been hard to coordinate but honestly I knew I probably was not going to win as a king since my income was so low after the second war. I really didn't want you, path, or coffee to win since you know you guys screwed me at the beginning. So, I was completely on board with bending a knee to Jackal.

[mauchow]

I had a blast fishing... I purposely didn't submit orders as I wanted shit to go down. . Turned out I didn't need to do that with the big three way bannerman exile. Thats when thw game started. Which in turn made my entrance into the game take longer.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by path12

I thought the roleplaying in the game was about the best I've ever seen in one of these games. Everyone took to their character and it really enhanced the experience at least for me.

Bravo.

Agreed, there were some excellent performances.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Saldana, why did you kill Melisandre? I'm not sure how that helped you. Was she one of VArys's four?

I was already trying to line myself up with stark, so when I learned that she would rez you if you died, I wanted to takee your extra life out of the picture as a gift to my new lord

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Also, an apology to The Jackal for missing his question on landbased battles. Obviously, that would have been a key piece of information to take into consideration.

All good, I'm just glad I got to be a part of this. Hopefully from the beginning next time.

[InBlue]

June was a difficult month for me. With school ending, there were finals, parties, etc... I'm glad I got to be part of this game for so long.

I know I didn't post so much, but I enjoyed keeping up with the game even when I didn't have anything to say.

[Danny]

I would like to say that I have never achieved a less deserved victory than this one.

[Narcizo]

Thank you a lot for running the game Chief - it was a lot of fun. I love games with the potential for a lot of intrigues.

Generally I think it should have been easier to kill the Kings and harder to get rid of the bannerman (the fact that no starting bannerman survived until the end shows it was stacked against the bannermen). I always presumed that once a king had no bannermen then they would be eligible for the vote and would become unaffiliated bannermen if they were voted out. I think it would have been nice if the bannermen had more opportunity to do things on their own outside of the influence of their king and perhaps be able to conspire to replace the king as the leader of their faction etc etc. I think that would have added another level of intrigue and paranoia to the game.

DT's victory conditions were pretty impossible as it turned out (given the impossibility of keeping bannermen alive) so I don't blame him for departing from them. I'd pretty much decided to settle on shit-stirring and making sure that Joffrey lived even before the end and just channelling my paranoia and letting that decide what to do (like the plot to kill Stark - stupid Selmy)! Oddly enough I don't think I actually made up too many stories, most of the info I gave was either legit or stuff that I believed (Balon being reponsible for the assassanation of Melisandre). I think the only story I totally made up was the one that Tywin had cut a deal with Renly, which was mainly to try and get the vote off of him - before Chief said that bannermen could flee their lords at any time.

In terms of what went down I think Zinto made a huge mistake letting Hoops go, unless Hoops was dead set on leaving. Path kept two dishonoured bannermen at it didn't seem to impact him. Even if Jaime was the bodyguard (he was mine as well) I'd take Jaime leaving over Tywin going any day. Overall it seems that a lot was decided by the luck of the draw (capturing Hoops, capturing Jackal etc).

I did feel sorry for Autumn when all the other threads had hundreds of posts and his own only had a couple of pages. If he'd got more back up someone might have noticed that he could invest in more than one thing per day.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Danny

I would like to say that I have never achieved a less deserved victory than this one.

I would like you to make this your new sig please.

[Autumn]

Yeah, I think maybe it was too difficult for bannerman to flee factions. I know I had looked at convincing Jaime to do that, but when I realized they'd still have to spend a day bieng possibly captured, it seemed pointless.

It would be interesting to tie land and gold into victory conditions more, perhaps, so that you might tempt someone with promises of those. It didn't seem gold was all that useful, and in the books having land is really, really key. It was here for troop production, but other than Petyr I didn't feel it really was going to change anybody's mind about anything.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Part of my role - I was immune to assassins, but couldn't buy them either.

I figured this was the case from what you said.

[hoopsguy]

I wasn't dead set on leaving, but we saw the negative honor hit cut into funding - that dramatically lowered my value to House Lannister. I did not have the benefit of knowing what my troops/value was relative to all the other bannermen at that time ... perhaps I would have reached another decision with more complete info. But I really did think that my leaving Joffrey, and giving him half the troops/ships/cash in the process, was not going to be a net negative.

I also tried to help Joffrey get a safe landing with Robb, or at least provide some guidance on how I thought he should play his hand down the stretch. By and large, I thought Tywin was loyal to his family and tried to play it that way throughout, with Tyrion being somewhat an exception due to the strained relationship they had in the books.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I'm sure you expected people to buy spies and such a lot. I know I never even considered hiring Littlefinger because I wouldn't trust what he told me. SAme with dealing with Varys. Which was too bad, because that was a fun thing to have in the game, and I would have loved being one of them and screwing with people. But it seemed like it wasn't necessary enough to risk it.

I was pretty much 99.9% honest FWIW. My only dishonesty was omission in some cases I believe.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Also, assassinations had a chance of failing.

And, also, DaddyTorgo controlled the non-Faceless Man assassination trade and could foil (I think) up to 3 attempts.

Yep. And I foiled the one on Renly, and I think one other one (I forget who it was on), and let the one on Littlefinger go ahead.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Interesting little sidebit on mau and Barristan.

For a few days, it had been apparent that Robb Stark was likely going to be the King to get Barristan's services, so mau started contacting CW daily and asking him which of his bannermen he would like to protect. CW consistently said his Hand of the moment, so JAG and then Bug and then finally hoopsguy was protected.

Presumeably hoopsguy would have continued to be protected, except that Robb finally achieved enough honor to receive Barristan's services in his Kingsguard. So mau joined CW's KG and wasn't available to protect others anymore. That very day, DaddyTorgo (coincidentally, he didn't know about Barristan's role) ordered the assassination on hoops--an assassination Barristan/mau would have stopped, with a chance to reveal who ordered it.

I sort of figured that was mau's ability, but you're right that I didn't know who he was protecting at the time.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I'm also wondering why DT/Varys had me clipped.

Because your dog killed Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I tried to go multi-tier on the spies. That was the thing, to put available information out there, but you have to decide how much you could trust it.

You could buy your own spies, with a chance they will be discovered. You could use Littlefinger's spies, with no chance they would be discovered and more likely to succeed, but you have to rely on Littlefinger to provide you with the results. Or you could go directly to Lord Varys himself and decide what you could trust from him.

For the most part, sal and DT responded honestly to questions to them, I found, strangely enough. Every now and then one or the other would hold something back or lie about something, but they generally played it straight.

When the truth will serve your purposes as well as a lie then there's no need to lie. as mentioned, I think my only dishonesty was omission, or not revealing all that I knew, but I feel like even in those instances where I wasn't explicit I tried to give an answer that was in-character and pointed the person in the direction of the truth.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

[color="Red"]CERSEI LANNISTER'S OPENING PM (Narcizo)


GM Comment: Narcizo had a pretty boring role for much of the game, so to do what he did with it, frankly, he's an All Star. If any of you received a PM from him in "Cersei" mode, you already know what I mean. Just went completely in character. Some awesome roleplay. And the changed/expanded role set really helped him further that roleplay, I think. This is a role I'll need to tinker with, but how Narc played it certainly helps me with how to further flesh it out.

Narc was awesome. I was cracking up at his PM's. Absolutely rolling on the floor, they were so in-character.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

LORD VARYS'S OPENING PM (DaddyTorgo)

You are Lord Varys, also known as the Eunuch, the royal Master of Whisperers. You are a man of mystery and your motives unclear to anyone in the game. The reality is that you truly do only want what is best for the realm, that ensures the most happiness and chance for success for all the people of Westeros, both noble and small. Strangely enough, though no one will know it, you might be the most good intentioned player in the game.

Your win condition will be to choose a King and three bannerman and to do what you can to make them the winning team. The King and each bannerman must all come from different starting factions. Your total win will depend on how many of these four survive to end of the game and are victorious.

You must choose your four players by the end of Night Zero.

You are also aware that Cersei Lannister’s goal is to stop you, although she has less power than you do. One time per game, you may trigger a bout of paranoia in her and cause her to chase shadows for a day.

You have full PM rights with Littlefinger, but be aware you have a respectful but adversarial relationship with Littlefinger, and you have a minor win condition to see him not succeed in his objective, which you will learn after Day One.

You start the game with 20000 gold per day and receive 2000 per day from various blackmail dealings. Not that you generally need money for much.

Littlefinger has spies for hire. One of those spies will turn over the information he learns to you as well as Littlefinger, including for who’s benefit he was paid to do so. The spy in question will be chosen at random. Keep in mind, Littlefinger may not tell the player who hires him the truth, but you will learn the truth from the spy, regardless.

You will receive the contents of four PM exchanges (and responses) at random each day, including who is talking to whom. These are the individual one per day PMs all players are allowed, not the full rights PMs. You will not be able to see full rights PM conversations (such as between the Kings and their Hands, or between Tyrion and Cersei).

Starting Day Three, you have the option to select a faction thread to read FOR THAT DAY ONLY. You may not post in that thread, and you can only read from the deadline to the following deadline for that day. You cannot choose the same faction again for two more days. This is akin to having a spy in the faction camp.

You control the assassin trade in Westeros. Assassins will be available to players for hire. You will learn who hired them and who they are targeting. You cannot reveal this information publically because it would reveal too much about your sources, but you can send them out in “rumors” (see below). You also have the option to “foil”up to three assassination attempts per game. The attempt will be made and publically known, but it will fail. No one will know you engineered it to fail.

Every day, you have the option to submit three “rumors” for the Little Birds report which will be posted after the deadline each day. These rumors must be true or true to the best of your knowledge. If you supply these, you may then also supply a fourth rumor, which you can choose to be true or false, which will also be posted in the Little Birdies report.

You can only post in the main game thread.

WIN CONDITION: 25% SATISFIED (DT selected King Renly, who survivied, and Ser Gregor Clegane (JulioRiddols), Lord Rickard Karstark (MrBug708) and Lady Melisandre (bulletsponge) as his "four" to support.

MINOR WIN CONDITION: 50% (I'll give him half credit for "stopping" Littlefinger, but saldana was realy more undone by the rule changes made necessary by DT's change in approach to the game--can't really give game credit for that)



GM Comment: I think there will be mixed responses to how DaddyTorgo played this role. He had a given win condition, and fairly early on, he chose to ignore it and just roleplay. I don't mind that myself, if it just affects him, but his role affected quite a few others, which is the main reason we saw the adjusted roles for Tyrion and Cersei. All of that is a negative, and likely what most of you will concentrate on.

The other side of the coin is, DT really did play a fantastic Varys. He was so mysterious, I, the GM, didn't know what he was trying to do much of the time. And, like Narc, he was completely nailing the character in his messages to other players. So as a GM, I can't say I support the decision he made with his character. But I appreciate the participation all the same, because it was very well done.

Allow myself to address the crowd.

I think the expanded roles for Tyrion and Cersei were awesomely interesting. I'm sorry that my change in the way I wanted to play the game made some of their early-game actions less important, but I'd hope they'd agree that they had a lot of fun with their newer win conditions?

As you can see and remember - I ditched my victory conditions almost right away. I selected Clegane as one to stay alive, and I think 3/4 (not Joffrey) of the Kings can attest to the fact that I pushed immediately for declaring Clegane an enemy of the realm and killing him.

My altered victory conditions were: "Vengeance for Elia/Rhaenys/Aegon," and "Set the Stage for Game 2 with a different cast of characters."

I think I did a good job by my own self-created victory conditions, at least in my own head. Mountain + Tywin dead = Vengeance. Stage is set for Game 2, with a different cast of characters. Hopefully we get to the see the victors/survivors, Dorne, and Danerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, Mother of Dragons.

I think my in-character communication was a thing of beauty. Some of my PMs are almost poetic - I hope Chief makes all that stuff available at some point?

I look forward to the next game, and to reprising my role as Varys.

P.S. - I do want to apologize to saldana for the heated OOC-argument that we had in PMs about my victory conditions and how changing them ruined the game for him and all. We both got pretty irate and that's not something I like to have happen over a game. So really...sincere apologies Rich.

[hoopsguy]

Sigh - yet another case of Lannister's getting screwed by people wanting to play to the books. DT goes off reservation to take out two members of one house, including actively hiring an assassin.

I understand everyone has a right to play the game the way that they see fit, but it pretty much made it impossible for House Lannister to have anything resembling a fighting chance in this game.

[Autumn]

Yeah the main problem with going off the reservation is there's no balance to meet it. I think Chief did a good job of having everything balanced well -- if Varys was going to be out to get the Lannisters there needed to be an opposing force countering him. But managing those neutral characters to be fun without overpowering was a tough challenge.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Sigh - yet another case of Lannister's getting screwed by people wanting to play to the books. DT goes off reservation to take out two members of one house, including actively hiring an assassin.

I understand everyone has a right to play the game the way that they see fit, but it pretty much made it impossible for House Lannister to have anything resembling a fighting chance in this game.

Clegane was in trouble from the start, and you were always going to be a target. I'm not the one who voted you enemy of the realm or forced you to flee and put you into play for everyone to chase after you. Once you teamed up with Stark you were definitely a target to everybody given what you brought to the table for him.

[hoopsguy]

You can make up your own version of events if it makes you feel better. However, Lannister had three bannerman. Jamie was marked for death in Bug's role. And you took it upon yourself to target the other two, including hiring the assassin for one of them.

There were, from my reading of the rules, no other characters that were marked for death in the roles Chief released.

Again, you chose to play in a manner you felt was appropriate with the book. Got it, glad it helped you enjoy the experience more. But Chief already indicated that he had to change at least two roles (Cersei + Tyrion) as a result. And I think it is pretty much beyond argument that Joffrey had no shot at winning this contest with the way the balance shifted as a result of your "rewrite."

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

You can make up your own version of events if it makes you feel better. However, Lannister had three bannerman. Jamie was marked for death in Bug's role. And you took it upon yourself to target the other two, including hiring the assassin for one of them.

There were, from my reading of the rules, no other characters that were marked for death in the roles Chief released.

Again, you chose to play in a manner you felt was appropriate with the book. Got it, glad it helped you enjoy the experience more. But Chief already indicated that he had to change at least two roles (Cersei + Tyrion) as a result. And I think it is pretty much beyond argument that Joffrey had no shot at winning this contest with the way the balance shifted as a result of your "rewrite."

He could have attracted other bannermen. Not like I targeted you right away - I didn't hire the assassin till you ended up with Stark, and had you ended up with someone else I would have likely let you live longer (maybe completely as it turns out - I might have missed my window). You and he made the decision for him to flee, and the other lords out there made the decision to declare you an enemy of the realm, that's not on me.

[MrBug708]

In my hatred for Jaime role, I really had no power to do anything with him. If given a chance to go after him, I wouldn't be able to turn that chance down and I'm assuming he was a better fighter than I am

[Autumn]

The Lannisters had it tough from the beginning, as the fiction gave some reason for them to be the initial targets, and it made sense for the rest of us to gang up on someone to start. I suppose Melisandre was the next most natural target, so it was a good thing everybody hates the lannisters for me! But it did put Joffrey at a severe disadvantage, and really helped Robb, who was last on the list of characters people would be worried about for fictional reasons (Renly and Stannis both having some reason to target each other).

[bhlloy]

Yeah it wasn't much fun being a Lannister bannerman in this game. Felt like some basic WW etiquette went out the window in a rush to play the game like the books. It is was it is, but I wouldn't step in as Jaime again given the choice

[MrBug708]

There needs to be an honor hit for voting for the same house twice in a row, or not being able to vote for a house more than twice every four nights or being able to buy favor from the Septon to remove the enemy of the realm vote on yourself.

But ya, the Lannisters had it tough

Also it was going to be nearly impossible to be a bannerman and survive until the end of this game.

[Danny]

So can someone get a new ww gaming going?

[Coffee Warlord]

I just don't think the voting mechanic really 'works' in this kinda game. Not sure what to replace it with, but it didn't really fit, in my opinion.

[hoopsguy]

I want to make a point of thanking Chief for putting this game together. I know a lot of us were excited about having a "Game of Thrones" WW theme and had certain expectations associated with it. I would give two very enthusiastic thumbs up to the work Chief did creating the structure and his really engaging write-ups. Based on all the role-playing we saw in this game, I suspect many of the other players were similarly immersed in the game.

I'm sure he has a number of things that he'll rework for the sequel, and I will definitely try to find a way to play in that one when it comes around.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Autumn

The Lannisters had it tough from the beginning, as the fiction gave some reason for them to be the initial targets, and it made sense for the rest of us to gang up on someone to start. I suppose Melisandre was the next most natural target, so it was a good thing everybody hates the lannisters for me! But it did put Joffrey at a severe disadvantage, and really helped Robb, who was last on the list of characters people would be worried about for fictional reasons (Renly and Stannis both having some reason to target each other).

I reached out to hoops pretty early to see if we could work something out but really the rest of my team were all for the idea of hitting Lannister first and so I couldn't build a consensus there to join with until the Clegane thing happened (which was really a rules screwup on my part -- I thought the bannermen could just go and capture on their own and so didn't send the order out until way too late). Then we tried to switch our votes around but ran out of time with Darth's vote on Lannister.

I was very scared of Melisandre from the beginning.

[Autumn]

Yeah, I was laughing about how everyone was all worked up about Melisandre, yet I had little idea what her powers were. Everyone assumed she could kill someone, which I had no idea about at the time. And neither she nor Davos could raid, so I was stuck with basically one raider. I did want her alive because i knew she could protect me from assassins though.

[Autumn]

And raise me from the dead, though I couldn't really figure out how that would happen. I guess i should have bought assassins earlier as I didn't realize they could target kings.

[Autumn]

Yes, chief, I'm sure you've heard your share of grumblings, but this was an awesomely fun game. All my grumblings came about completely because of how immersed I was in it, and how much I wanted to win. I found myself pondering strategy all the time, and running back to look over my notes to figure out what to do. Lots of possible tweaks but it was already a really great, fun ruleset.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Danny

So can someone get a new ww gaming going?

It won't be me at this time, I'm swamped.

[Zinto]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Yeah it wasn't much fun being a Lannister bannerman in this game. Felt like some basic WW etiquette went out the window in a rush to play the game like the books. It is was it is, but I wouldn't step in as Jaime again given the choice

I will also apologize to you bh because I completely disregarded your advice to join Stannis and Robb and it got you killed. Then again you may have been working with them at that point. Honestly, if I had known the Greyjoys were joining the game after that war I probably would have sat out.

[Zinto]

Oh and other then being a Lannister and not having much of a chance to win after three days, I really really enjoyed the game too. It got to the point were Chief may have thought I wasn't participating but a lot of the time I figured it was best to save my daily PMs since most conversations with me went like this:

Wanna bend the knee now? We promise you won't instantly die as a bannerman.

[Danny]

Honestly, I did not enjoy playing in this one. It was mostly because it felt like my initial role had nothing to do or care about at all. I needed to foil littlefingers plans, but there was nothing I could do about that until potentially after three weeks of playing. Because of this I never got invested into the game and put in very little effort.

It was better after I got my role changed, but by then I wasn't really invested in things.

[Danny]

I did enjoy following along though, just never really felt like taking an active role given my role.

[Autumn]

Yeah, I'm sure this was most fun for the kings and then less fun respectively as you went down in involvement/investment of roles.

[mauchow]

I fished. A lot!

I enjoyed it from the outside.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Zinto

I will also apologize to you bh because I completely disregarded your advice to join Stannis and Robb and it got you killed. Then again you may have been working with them at that point. Honestly, if I had known the Greyjoys were joining the game after that war I probably would have sat out.

Eh, if I'd have known the numbers were as even as they were I might have suggested the same thing, and the same thing might have ended up happening anyway. It wasn't a bad play, just the end result was bad. Would have been nice to know what you were planning ahead of time as I wasn't working with anyone else, but no biggie.

Which reminds me - CR did I die in that battle as a direct result of my role (saving Brienne) or was it just rolled that way and the writeup was flavor?

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

I just don't think the voting mechanic really 'works' in this kinda game. Not sure what to replace it with, but it didn't really fit, in my opinion.

Yeah I was thinking the same - but you'd have to have something else to do from day to day other than one battle every other day. Something like making raids more potent and involved (being allowed to split your forces to defend your own land and send others raiding or something like that), give bannermen and kings the chance to create plots like in CKII, make spies more useful. All of which would make the main thread even sparser and would require even more PMs to be sent. But I think the voting was to give some anchor in "werewolf".

I didn't mind the early days when I didn't have any power - I was like a spectator who got to post what I thought in the thread. I'd pretty much worked out that the only person I had to worry about from my original vcs was Renly and it became clearer and clearer that Stark was going to win so I didn't have to worry about that either. Once I got some power I felt like I actually had to achieve something, which is why I was basically trying to organise the assassanation of Stark.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Eh, if I'd have known the numbers were as even as they were I might have suggested the same thing, and the same thing might have ended up happening anyway. It wasn't a bad play, just the end result was bad. Would have been nice to know what you were planning ahead of time as I wasn't working with anyone else, but no biggie.

Which reminds me - CR did I die in that battle as a direct result of my role (saving Brienne) or was it just rolled that way and the writeup was flavor?

Written that way up for flavor.

You were just unfortunate in the dice roll as one of the bannermen to die (after I determined there would be two deaths).

[Autumn]

The battle deaths made for an interesting strategy. My best battle was actually the one I lost, because I had calculated that actually the more people teamed up against me, the more likely they were to die rather than my bannermen. Made joining in even on a winning side a questionable proposition, which was good--you had a decent chance of being the one who captures someone, but a good chance of losing someone as well.