Werewolf LXX Pleasure Cruise - (GAME OVER)

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Like I said , I enjoyed the game but as WW goes in a game where it is impossable to have any COT it's almost impossible to win.

I think there was a COT for alot of the game, it just wasn't mentioned much at all.. and then by later in the game things had fallen apart.

Early on you saw PurdueBrad and Barkeep heavily protecting each other, but the villagers killed that off. Nfg was semi-active in protecting Sonic Youth and same with Oliegirl-Nfg and I believe Mccollins-Anxiety The problem was that there wasn't enough information sharing on the COTs there, and in most cases suspicions from those not in the COTs ended up killing off those COT and starting things from ground 0 again.

I think this is one of those games that Barkeep can later point at for his huge speech on why information sharing is important in games (even though Ironically enough he chose to not do so in this game at a pretty crucial time too!)

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Like I said , I enjoyed the game but as WW goes in a game where it is impossable to have any COT it's almost impossible to win.

Just don't attack everyone

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Yep, I actually was worried that the locational clues would be so powerful that I tried to help the wolves out a bit there by putting in the killer's PM the message that other villagers in the area would have received, so no one would be outed for PM wording play. Based on locations alone, I could very easily have seen Chief Rum, Passacaglia and Tazftw all caught pretty easily!

I was pretty nervous about the locations as well and didn't give out where I went unless I pretty much had to.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by path12

You must have been laughing your ass off watching us pursue one red herring after another.

Nah not really. I was worried for the first 6 days that the wolves were going to get clobbered. So I figured mostly that was a short term issue.. When Passacaglia got lynched, I figured it was only time till someone put it all together.. Just never happened.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

So you could've posted that day after all?

Yep. I figured I saw screwed anyway, so my best bet was to not post, and hope someone figured that I was poisoned. I was trying to make it obvious that I was around, too -- hanging out in the thread as much as I could, posting in other threads in the WW forum, posting a lot in General Discussion. I kept refreshing, thinking someone would say, "Hey, how come Pass isn't saying anything, even though we've been talking about lynching him?" but the best I got was "he's been kinda MIA" after being gone 23 hours! And then, the one to suggest that I had been drugged was Taz, who was still a henchman -- a bad guy, but one who didn't know about the plan. That got a big "doh" from me.

I think that really, I just figured there was no hope, and I might as well shoot the moon -- if it worked, it would have been legendary in my mind. In retrospect, it seems like the vote was pretty close, so I might have been able to save myself simply by voting clap, and any more defense of myself would have just been gravy (though, knowing me, any defense of myself would have just made more people vote for me).

Alan -- So Lathum had just a +1 to his vote? How did that get me lynched?

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by mccollins

Day 2 @ Safari Office: KWhit, Chief Rum
Day 3 @ Conch Shell House: KWhit, Passacaglia

When or how did Taz get converted?

I was made the offer after I went golfing. Killing Anxiety made me a henchman.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by mccollins

Just don't attack everyone

I actualy never attacked anyone.

I may have strongly defended my self

[KWhit]

I thought it hillarious that Pass ended up getting lynched based on the drugs - everyone assumed he was lying about giving them to PurdueBrad, but he really did give them to him.

That could have really ended up screwing us.

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I think there was a COT for alot of the game, it just wasn't mentioned much at all.. and then by later in the game things had fallen apart.

Early on you saw PurdueBrad and Barkeep heavily protecting each other, but the villagers killed that off. Nfg was semi-active in protecting Sonic Youth and same with Oliegirl-Nfg and I believe Mccollins-Anxiety The problem was that there wasn't enough information sharing on the COTs there, and in most cases suspicions from those not in the COTs ended up killing off those COT and starting things from ground 0 again.

I think this is one of those games that Barkeep can later point at for his huge speech on why information sharing is important in games (even though Ironically enough he chose to not do so in this game at a pretty crucial time too!)

This is where my inexperience got me - I was afraid to share things because of the way people were attacked with suspicion (generally by Lathum and Cronin) when they shared anything!

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I think this is one of those games that Barkeep can later point at for his huge speech on why information sharing is important in games (even though Ironically enough he chose to not do so in this game at a pretty crucial time too!)

I see what you are saying but no one trusted the information that was given because so much of it was unverifiable.

There were alot of instances ( NFG giving Olie the bullet for examle) where people were afraid to trust the info for fear of a conversion.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

I was made the offer after I went golfing. Killing Anxiety made me a henchman.

I can't remember if I did that one or not. CR might have. But whichever one of us it was would have been at the same location as him.

[Passacaglia]

Taz and Anxiety -- did the wording of the PM about the conversion affect your decision? I had one where they framed me for some crime (I think it was a violation of NCAA rules), but they also had a gun pointed at me, so I figured I'd better do what they say.

[KWhit]

Alan -

What caused me to be the first Underground member? Random?

[jeheinz72]

Yeah I didn't do a good job of tracking people's whereabouts from the get-go, so then when it became Day 4 or 5 I just kinda figured well, someone else will have that info when I need it.

Not a wise decision on my part.

[KWhit]

Incidently, I had the choice to turn down the underground position too on the first day.

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I can't remember if I did that one or not. CR might have. But whichever one of us it was would have been at the same location as him.

Well I lost $250 to you by being a foot farther away from the hole so....



Can I have my money back?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by mccollins

This is where my inexperience got me - I was afraid to share things because of the way people were attacked with suspicion (generally by Lathum and Cronin) when they shared anything!

show me where I attacked someone for giving out info

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by mccollins

This is where my inexperience got me - I was afraid to share things because of the way people were attacked with suspicion (generally by Lathum and Cronin) when they shared anything!

Um, the players I attacked were: KWhit, Barkeep, and Passacaglia. Pass was a wolf, and KWhit and Barkeep were notable for NOT sharing information. I backed Lathum at every turn, and also posted support for you and nfg.

[KWhit]

st.cronin -

You said you were onto me. Why were you suspicious of me again?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Yep. I figured I saw screwed anyway, so my best bet was to not post, and hope someone figured that I was poisoned. I was trying to make it obvious that I was around, too -- hanging out in the thread as much as I could, posting in other threads in the WW forum, posting a lot in General Discussion. I kept refreshing, thinking someone would say, "Hey, how come Pass isn't saying anything, even though we've been talking about lynching him?" but the best I got was "he's been kinda MIA" after being gone 23 hours! And then, the one to suggest that I had been drugged was Taz, who was still a henchman -- a bad guy, but one who didn't know about the plan. That got a big "doh" from me.

I think that really, I just figured there was no hope, and I might as well shoot the moon -- if it worked, it would have been legendary in my mind. In retrospect, it seems like the vote was pretty close, so I might have been able to save myself simply by voting clap, and any more defense of myself would have just been gravy (though, knowing me, any defense of myself would have just made more people vote for me).

Alan -- So Lathum had just a +1 to his vote? How did that get me lynched?

The day you were lynched it was 6 votes required for lynching. Lathum's +1 put it just above the amount needed and lynched you.

Another note regarding votes, the golf game provided one of two means for someone to be able to flat out duke someone in this game. If anyone had at any point more than $1000 gained through actions (not from being passed), they would trigger a crew bribe duking option. Kwhit one the first game of 4 people and was able to duke Cronin. It was he that got cronin killed and not Lathum. He happily let Lathum take the blame for it.

Lathum won the next game but only ended up with $750 total and just 1 player short of being able to duke someone himself. Ironically enough Lathum was the one with the other chance of being able to duke someone.. if the Underground chose to kill the captain (one of their actions they had from the beginning but never used), Lathum would lose his +1 vote option, but he would gain a duke ability that was one time use.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

Well I lost $250 to you by being a foot farther away from the hole so....



Can I have my money back?

Oh yeah. I couldn't remember if you were one of the people whose money I took or not.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Alan -

What caused me to be the first Underground member? Random?

Nothing in this game was random. You were the last person who chose to go and explore the ruins where they were waiting, so you triggered the underground choice. If you had turned them down, your life in this game would have been made tougher, but you would have lived and the next day someone would have been given the same option in the same location.

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I actualy never attacked anyone.

I may have strongly defended my self

Path12 (the whole game) and Heinz this last day would beg to differ.

[Lathum]

So who still thinks I am a wolf

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Another note regarding votes, the golf game provided one of two means for someone to be able to flat out duke someone in this game. If anyone had at any point more than $1000 gained through actions (not from being passed), they would trigger a crew bribe duking option. Kwhit one the first game of 4 people and was able to duke Cronin. It was he that got cronin killed and not Lathum. He happily let Lathum take the blame for it.

Yep.

That generated a lot of confusion as to the voting mechanic, which only helped the wolves. If a villager would have won the golf tourney, they could have duked someone and shared the info about which would have helped people understand the voting mechanic.

[path12]

I'm pissed at myself. One of my personal rules is not to get locked into a particular mindset in a game. But the stuff surrounding Lathum seemed so perfect that I wasn't able to break out of it. Heinz saw the same thing I did that last day.

If I'd hadn't gotten fixed on that I might well have started tracking locations better. Oh well.

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Yep. I figured I saw screwed anyway, so my best bet was to not post, and hope someone figured that I was poisoned. I was trying to make it obvious that I was around, too -- hanging out in the thread as much as I could, posting in other threads in the WW forum, posting a lot in General Discussion. I kept refreshing, thinking someone would say, "Hey, how come Pass isn't saying anything, even though we've been talking about lynching him?" but the best I got was "he's been kinda MIA" after being gone 23 hours! And then, the one to suggest that I had been drugged was Taz, who was still a henchman -- a bad guy, but one who didn't know about the plan. That got a big "doh" from me.

Yeah, I saw you viewing the thread all the time but weren't posting and figured you were drugged but didn't post about it. I really wanted to look good so I wasn't going to unvote.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Taz and Anxiety -- did the wording of the PM about the conversion affect your decision? I had one where they framed me for some crime (I think it was a violation of NCAA rules), but they also had a gun pointed at me, so I figured I'd better do what they say.

Each person's initial conversion PM was similar.. They had two guys holding a gun on him with some method of framing them. I think Kwhit's was something about having his wife hostage, yours was NCAA rules violations, and I honestly don't remember what Anxiety's , Chiefs or Taz's were and would have to go into the folder to find it.

In each case, the punishment for violation would be losing any items you currently had (ie: Anxiety's sword) and being framed in some way for the next murder that occurs. (ie: Anxiety was framed for Raider's murder). Since people didn't really decide to do much with the information regarding deaths (Like no one even ever bothered to look into HOopsguy's death), that piece of the game really became minor when it should likely have been a major part of the clues.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by mccollins

Path12 (the whole game) and Heinz this last day would beg to differ.

Nah, in Lathum's defense on this, I came after him yesterday. I didn't really want to, but I felt with so many people coming on after I left but before I came to work in the AM, I had to present my case then.

Fat lot of good that did me, I came in down like 4-0

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by mccollins

Path12 (the whole game) and Heinz this last day would beg to differ.

I was defending myself against Path, he was the one going after me. I am sure he'll tell you as much.

I never attacked heinze, I made a case against him.

And what information were they sharing that I was attacking them for sharing?

I played this whole game being 100% honest and constantly taking swings from all sides for doing it because I knew it was the only way we had any shot.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by KWhit

st.cronin -

You said you were onto me. Why were you suspicious of me again?

Can't point to anything specific, which is probably why I got distracted by Barkeep. Just got a "wolfy" vibe off of you. Part of it was that you never, that I noticed, acknowledged that I was voting for you, part of it was that when you shared information or suspicions you did so in a very vague manner, as if you were afraid of being too specific for fear of making a mistake.

[Passacaglia]

He happily let Lathum take the blame for it.

Actually, I think that ended up hurting me. If everyone thought the wolves killed cronin, it might have looked like they were trying to set me up -- plus, Lathum thought I was trying to get cronin lynched the next day -- if I were a wolf, and I was going to kill cronin, why would I also accuse him of being a wolf? Plus, it wouldn't have given Lathum the idea that he could kill me!

I thought the 40% rule was interesting, but really restricted voting in a way. It was crazy how many times people seemed willing to go against what they claimed was their first choice in order to "get a lynch" -- which always helped the wolves.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by path12

I'm pissed at myself. One of my personal rules is not to get locked into a particular mindset in a game. But the stuff surrounding Lathum seemed so perfect that I wasn't able to break out of it. Heinz saw the same thing I did that last day.

If I'd hadn't gotten fixed on that I might well have started tracking locations better. Oh well.

I don't think you were alone.. I think there were many many villagers this game that did that.. I actually sat back at one point and said to myself,"So this must be what GMs think of me in games when I get completely locked into the wrong mindframe."

One other thing I found amusing.. it probably isn't fair to Lathum to have a poll running where he is a runaway winner for best wolf at the same time he is trying to buy trust in this game

[path12]

Originally Posted by mccollins

Path12 (the whole game) and Heinz this last day would beg to differ.

I think part of that is just Lathum's style. He is dogged in his questioning of everything no matter if he is a villager or wolf. Maybe a little secretive at times but we've all got strong and weak areas. I don't think we were ever really mad at each other during all of our back and forth.

Plus he had a bad run of early exits and I think he was determined not to have that happen again this game!

[Lathum]

OK,

I am getting mildly irritated.

Maybe I am not getting something.

I know you guys will be honest with me.

Was I attacking people?

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Taz and Anxiety -- did the wording of the PM about the conversion affect your decision? I had one where they framed me for some crime (I think it was a violation of NCAA rules), but they also had a gun pointed at me, so I figured I'd better do what they say.

Here's mine,

After your round of golf, you go back to the clubhouse to change clothes. After the other three go for some drinks in the "19th hole bar", suddenly two large men walk into the clubhouse and lock the door behind them.

You very clearly have no where that you can run, and once one of them pulls out a gun on you it is pretty clear that you must listen to what they have to say.

The other man, not holding the gun picks up a huge stack of paper and says,"We have proof here where you have evaded your taxes for a good 20 years and hidden it through a money laundering scheme... If I was a good citizen, I would take this to the proper authorities immediately... Luckily I am not a good citizen, so perhaps we could strike a deal.."

The man explains to you that he knows some important people that need some work done for them... and in return for this huge stack of "proof", they want you to do it for them, no questions asked... If you refuse, then it will be your own demise.


Do you:

1) Accept their offer and agree to do their "dirty work?"

or

2) Turn them down and face the consequences, whatever they may be.

[st.cronin]

I am really surprised anybody would think Lathum was a wolf in this game.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I am really surprised anybody would think Lathum was a wolf in this game.

welcome to my world

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Actually, I think that ended up hurting me. If everyone thought the wolves killed cronin, it might have looked like they were trying to set me up -- plus, Lathum thought I was trying to get cronin lynched the next day -- if I were a wolf, and I was going to kill cronin, why would I also accuse him of being a wolf? Plus, it wouldn't have given Lathum the idea that he could kill me!

I thought the 40% rule was interesting, but really restricted voting in a way. It was crazy how many times people seemed willing to go against what they claimed was their first choice in order to "get a lynch" -- which always helped the wolves.

I stole the 40% vote idea from Hoopsguy by the way So anyone who doesn't like it blame him! Actually alot of the various components of this game have been used before by me or other GMs. the only new thing that I think I brought in to this game was the non-random factor. And after the fact, I found it interesting to work with, but I think having a game completely non-random makes it much more difficult to run.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK,

I am getting mildly irritated.

Maybe I am not getting something.

I know you guys will be honest with me.

Was I attacking people?

Nah, I don't think so.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK,

I am getting mildly irritated.

Maybe I am not getting something.

I know you guys will be honest with me.

Was I attacking people?

Not really attacking, but like Path said, you have a way of going after thngs (I do too, see the last day and a half of this game) that just screams wolf.

And while the stuff you shared was good, it wasn't overly helpful, nor was it in any way verifiable.

I really still thought you were a wolf up until Alan posted the final list. I figured you only switched if there was another day left in the game or it was villager/villager.

[KWhit]

I figured that Lathum was the most trusted person of the bunch after his story about being the captain's helper. I just figured most everyone would believe that.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK,

I am getting mildly irritated.

Maybe I am not getting something.

I know you guys will be honest with me.

Was I attacking people?

Now that I think about it, the greybush thing was just wrong, man.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I am really surprised anybody would think Lathum was a wolf in this game.

The interesting thing is if Lathum hadn't gotten so much heat after Swaggs got lynched.. it could have led to Chief Rum getting lynched as a member of the Underground.. But since Lathum didn't have much trust any longer by many people, it sidetracked that entire possibility.

The ironic part was that the whole rope cutting thing was either a poorly worded PM on my part or a misunderstanding on his part. I tried to make it very clear in the PM that Lathum left the boat to check the ropes and the rest of the outside of the boat.. ie: THey likely were cut by someone not on the boat.. It would have been funny to me if that ended up getting Chief Rum lynched when he lied about being on the boat in the first place (when he really was somewhere else completely different)

[Lathum]

BTW- I sometimes employ a strategy in games where I try to be very on the edge so the wolves will keep me around

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by path12

Now that I think about it, the greybush thing was just wrong, man.

If it's the truth it's not an attack

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by Lathum

If it's the truth it's not an attack

Ha

[path12]

Originally Posted by Lathum

If it's the truth it's not an attack

lol

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I figured that Lathum was the most trusted person of the bunch after his story about being the captain's helper. I just figured most everyone would believe that.

Same here.. I felt that trusted wise, Lathum, nfg, mccollins, PurdueBrad, Barkeep and Sonic Youth all had places where they did things that could have added them to a more trusted list. Tazftw also would be in that group, but really the only Underground member that probably fell into that frame.. however Taz would have been in trouble if people put together locations and figured out where Anxiety died (with the information Qwikshot received from the police but I don't recall him ever sharing it with anyone).

[st.cronin]

For my next game, I'm also planning to eliminate random factors.

The voting mechanism (40%) was interesting, but I think it hurts the village to encourage runaway votes.

I know some people feel different, but conversions - I hate them. I'm never running a game with conversions.