Big 10 Expansion Thread -Big Ten ready for a playoff .. finally?

[sterlingice]

I think the short answer is "none". And what's to say this is good or bad for the NCAA (as in the association hq), anyway?

SI

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Forgive me for what may seem like a dumb question but does the NCAA have any kind of authority over the schools? Seems like the inmates running the asylums.

When I was my son's age, the following teams were in the Eastern Independent Conference

Rutgers
Cincinnati
Notre Dame
Pittsburgh
Penn State
Temple
Boston College
Northern Illinois
Colgate
Navy
West Virginia
Southern Illinois
Syracuse
Army
Holy Cross College
Dayton
Marshall
Villanova


Missouri Valley Conference:

Tulsa
Louisville
New Mexico State
Wichita State
West Texas A&M
Drake
North Texas

of course, we had the Southwestern Conference:

Baylor University
Texas
Texas A&M
Arkansas
Southern Methodist
Texas Tech
Rice
Texas Christian


The WAC:

Brigham Young
Arizona
Arizona State
Colorado State
New Mexico
Texas El Paso
Wyoming
Utah


and finally, the Southwestern Independents:

Lamar
Georgia Tech
Southern Mississippi
Arkansas State
Houston
Miami (Florida)
Virginia Tech
Memphis
Tulane
Tampa
Texas Arlington
Florida State
Utah State
South Carolina
Louisiana Lafayette
Air Force
Tennessee Chattanooga
Idaho



Point is, lots and lots of changes had been made, lots of changes soon to be made and lots of changes will continue to be made.

[Swaggs]

Sour grapes:

NYTPete Thamel

Just filed a Big East story. One news nugget: Big East will hold Pitt and Syracuse to their exit contract, meaning a June 2014 exit.

Hopefully, just a ploy to get more buyout cash. It would be stupid to have those schools hanging around for another three years.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Sour grapes:



Hopefully, just a ploy to get more buyout cash. It would be stupid to have those schools hanging around for another three years.

In addition, remember that rumors are the ACC's grabbing UConn and Rutgers soon and SECs taking WVU, so there'll be a lot more leverage for an early out.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Forgive me for what may seem like a dumb question but does the NCAA have any kind of authority over the schools? Seems like the inmates running the asylums.

At the end of the day they're still just a voluntary organization. Really they just help out with administration and regulation/discipline. A school or group of schools could leave whenever they want. It's definitely not the relationship the NFL or MLB has with pro teams. Which why I think these (sterile) visions of 4 16-team balanced pro-style conferences will never quite work out as smoothly as some think (what happens the day 12 of the 16 teams in one of the conferences want to jump ship?)

[molson]

I just want to sit around and listen to Bucc telling stories about old timey college football underneath an old oak tree.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by molson

I just want to sit around and listen to Bucc telling stories about old timey college football underneath an old oak tree.

"FACEMASKS? They didnt wear facemasks! And the helmets were leather. Thats when real men played football."

[RainMaker]

There doesn't seem to be a lot of backlash over this from fans. Lot of interest, but not a lot of people upset about their school leaving a longtime conference or a new one.

[Suicane75]

I wasn't making a judgment per se, I was just under the impression that the NCAA had more control over things than I guess they do.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There doesn't seem to be a lot of backlash over this from fans. Lot of interest, but not a lot of people upset about their school leaving a longtime conference or a new one.

Well for the Big East teams outside of maybe Louisville, Cincy and South Florida everyone has been looking for any opportunity to get out of the conference. The basketball schools run things have held football back for years.

If things work out the way they appear to be headed I'll miss games with Pitt and Rutgers each year (the back and forth between WVU and Rutgers fans on game week each year makes the series a lot of fun), but getting out of the Big East more than makes up for it.

[Marmel]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There doesn't seem to be a lot of backlash over this from fans. Lot of interest, but not a lot of people upset about their school leaving a longtime conference or a new one.

After the last 10 years serving under the Providence mafia, I am now looking forward to serving our new Tobacco Road overlords.

Plus we are going to kick some serious ass on the hardwood.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Point is, lots and lots of changes had been made, lots of changes soon to be made and lots of changes will continue to be made.

Yep. It's something that tools like Gregg Doyel (grrr! look at my tough guy picture!) don't seem to get - the college football landscape has always changed over time. We may romanticize how things were when we were at an impressionable age, but that's not how things were 20 years before that or how they were 20 years after that.

What's happening now is a logical continuation of what big-time college sports is. If people really have an issue with what's happening to the student-athletes, then address the core issues, not the symptoms.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Well for the Big East teams outside of maybe Louisville, Cincy and South Florida everyone has been looking for any opportunity to get out of the conference. The basketball schools run things have held football back for years.

If things work out the way they appear to be headed I'll miss games with Pitt and Rutgers each year (the back and forth between WVU and Rutgers fans on game week each year makes the series a lot of fun), but getting out of the Big East more than makes up for it.

I wish there was a back and forth in wins and scoring too.

[gstelmack]

I don't remember any wailing or gnashing of teeth when my South Florida Bulls moved up from the Sun Belt to Conference USA. Or when the Big 8/12 formed. Everyone only started getting up in arms when the ACC raided the Big East a few years back.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

I don't remember any wailing or gnashing of teeth when my South Florida Bulls moved up from the Sun Belt to Conference USA. Or when the Big 8/12 formed. Everyone only started getting up in arms when the ACC raided the Big East a few years back.

I won't speak for your South Florida situation but the Big 8/12 transition was ugly. First you had the breakup of the SWC with Arkansas and Texas ready to throw down and then you had Nebraska and a lot of the old guard in the Big 8 extremely pissed about adding the Texas schools. Maybe the internet wasn't as big back then but here in Big 8 land it was a HUGE deal.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by panerd

I won't speak for your South Florida situation but the Big 8/12 transition was ugly. First you had the breakup of the SWC with Arkansas and Texas ready to throw down and then you had Nebraska and a lot of the old guard in the Big 8 extremely pissed about adding the Texas schools. Maybe the internet wasn't as big back then but here in Big 8 land it was a HUGE deal.

Ah, my bad then. Or it was before the Internet and message boards so I didn't get to hear about it...

[OldGiants]

Don't ever think that how things shake out in the immediate future will have any bearing by 2016 (to pick a year). Factors that seem to be getting enough air time (as if any this needs more air time) are that:

1. Football is where almost all the money is
2 The 'other' sports, often called 'The Olympic sports' all lose money.
3. Cutting the cost of The Olympic Sports pretty much involves slicing travel costs.
4. Universities are still primarily in the education business.

Conclusion: who you play in football will be carved away from the conferences for all other sports. These conferences will be local.

After a bit of sorting out that there are four big conferences, each with 16 to 24 members. These four champions will meet in the big games to decide the national title.

This, of course, will make the have-nots angry, and they might react like this:

Stanford and Cal call UVa, Duke and Wake Forest. These schools announce they are withdrawing from the Big Four and will be joined by Rice, Northwestern and Vanderbilt to form an Ivy League With Scholarships.

The Big Four schools scoff at the ILWS. "Bunch of tree huggers and commies," sniffs the AD of Alabama. The ILWS then announce they are adding the three military academies. "What was that you said about our country's heroes?"

Since they are being excluded from the big football money, the ILWS next announces they are adding basketball schools without big time football.
The Jesuit colleges join--G-town, Marquette, Providence. Notre Dame says this the Pope told them to join, so they do, too.

Now the ILWS says, "We are inviting schools who wish to improve the core mission of education. So we will add UCLA, Kentucky, Louisville, North Carolina, and Kansas, all of whom are now committed to academics."

Next steps are:

1) Announce more rigid academic standards in excess of the Big Four.
2) Essentially add in all the other basketball playing schools except for the Big Four schools.
3) Schedule an ILWS basketball championship for schools that meet the new, higher academic standards. Add in the other Olympic Sports on these conditions.

Sit back and watch schools re-align again.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Yep. It's something that tools like Gregg Doyel (grrr! look at my tough guy picture!) don't seem to get - the college football landscape has always changed over time. We may romanticize how things were when we were at an impressionable age, but that's not how things were 20 years before that or how they were 20 years after that.

What's happening now is a logical continuation of what big-time college sports is. If people really have an issue with what's happening to the student-athletes, then address the core issues, not the symptoms.

I think this puts into perspective the teeth-gnashing over the loss of conference rivalries:

For about 90 years, the Texas/Oklahoma game was a non-conference game.

Now, it would suck if that game goes away completely due to all of these moves, but I can't imagine that happening.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

More posturing by Texas. This time they're implying a MU or KU connection to the ACC. May happen with KU, but MU isn't going to the ACC.

Orangebloods.com - Source: Texas will make decision within two weeks

Notre Dame continues to say their primary choice is to remain independent and have other schools in Big East, but that conference may not last.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

dola

TT poster reappears on Tigerboard.......

Baylor's and others, legal threats have yet to be rendered entirely moot, although that will happen shortly.

It has taken several weeks longer than Mondo thought, but we're basically here, the final scenario should shake out by Monday, then watch the fireworks.

Mondo says what hasn't changed is that when aTm is firmly planted in the SEC, Missouri follows. That's all there is to it, not much else to say. Missouri has been #14 all along and still is.

The ACC didn't "cotton" to being used as a bargaining chip by Bevo and put an end to it. (Mondo knew several weeks ago the ACC thing was bogus I don't recall if I posted that or mentioned it in private to someone here?)

There are now only two options for Dodd's make a deal with the Pac 12 or give up the LHN and save what's left of the B12 with equal revenue sharing.

Either way TT and MU are safely in BCS conferences.

Hilarious isn't it. Dodds stepped right on old Bevo's "tail" and totally took a Bevo Chip Brown shot to the face.

I still can't come totally clean except to say the Permian Basin has been my home and we still have a little say in what happens in Texas.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by Atocep

If things work out the way they appear to be headed I'll miss games with Pitt and Rutgers each year (the back and forth between WVU and Rutgers fans on game week each year makes the series a lot of fun), but getting out of the Big East more than makes up for it.

Same here. As a 30 year old guy, my first vivid sports memory was my dad taking a 6 year old me to a RU game against Syracuse at the old Rutgers Stadium. The last 2 games I went to with my dad before he passed away were wins over Virginia Tech and West Virginia in 1992. I also remember going to games against Pitt, Penn State, Temple and BC over those 6 years, some at Rutgers Stadium, some at the Meadowlands, and those are the teams I feel a bond to.

[JPhillips]

The only thing I really hate about the new alignments is the changing of the Big East Tournament. IMO that tourny was second only to the NCAA and with all the changes it's bound to lose some of it's stature.

[Ksyrup]

@Jake_Trotter: Implementation of pod system in scheduling alleviated 1 of OU’s major concerns in joining Pac12, athletic dept.source said

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Same here. As a 30 year old guy, my first vivid sports memory was my dad taking a 6 year old me to a RU game against Syracuse at the old Rutgers Stadium. The last 2 games I went to with my dad before he passed away were wins over Virginia Tech and West Virginia in 1992. I also remember going to games against Pitt, Penn State, Temple and BC over those 6 years, some at Rutgers Stadium, some at the Meadowlands, and those are the teams I feel a bond to.

I remember those RU-VT games back then. Always a 50-49 shootout, with VT on the short end most of the time.

[Daimyo]

Big Ten has been pretty quiet this time around. I'd always hoped they'd end up with Syracuse even though it was always a long shot.

At this point are they just hoping the Big East completely implodes and that is enough to finally push ND to join?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

In addition, remember that rumors are the ACC's grabbing UConn and Rutgers soon and SECs taking WVU, so there'll be a lot more leverage for an early out.

This actually may make UConn and Rutgers looks MUCH better to the ACC. If you pick those two, the demands that Pitt and Syracuse play until 2014 may be moot because the teams that are leaving may have the votes to dissolve the whole thing on the football end (though I'm not sure what BE rules are on that).

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

Big Ten has been pretty quiet this time around. I'd always hoped they'd end up with Syracuse even though it was always a long shot.

At this point are they just hoping the Big East completely implodes and that is enough to finally push ND to join?

They better not, because ND is going to join the ACC ,not the Big Ten. I believe the current ND AD is the former AD at Virginia, and the current Duke AD is the former AD at ND. Or something like that.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

This actually may make UConn and Rutgers looks MUCH better to the ACC. If you pick those two, the demands that Pitt and Syracuse play until 2014 may be moot because the teams that are leaving may have the votes to dissolve the whole thing on the football end (though I'm not sure what BE rules are on that).

It's not just football. You think Providence and Seton Hall are gonna let their cash cow games against Syracuse and UConn walk out the door that easy?

[Logan]

My buddy emailed me a tweet from a CBS guy saying that the WVU application was rejected by both the ACC and the SEC. Anything else on this?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

They better not, because ND is going to join the ACC ,not the Big Ten. I believe the current ND AD is the former AD at Virginia, and the current Duke AD is the former AD at ND. Or something like that.

IT does make some sense, in terms of recruiting and growing the brand in general. They are already in the midwest, so joining a midwestern conference doesn't do much for them. Getting into the south and even fortifying their NE base, with the ACC's expansion north, seems pretty smart on their part.

Plus, I think I'd welcome the chance to beat their ass on a yearly basis...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Logan

My buddy emailed me a tweet from a CBS guy saying that the WVU application was rejected by both the ACC and the SEC. Anything else on this?

Brett McMurphy is the guy. Was dismissed when another site reported it last night, but appears to be gaining traction today. That tweet was a confirmation that he had checked his sources again and that they confirmed its validity.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by Logan

My buddy emailed me a tweet from a CBS guy saying that the WVU application was rejected by both the ACC and the SEC. Anything else on this?

In terms of the SEC, supposedly it was more of a "not yet" than a rejection. The SEC is essentially waiting for the B12 lawsuit stuff to clear up and/or the Texas/OU move to be official before they make any moves.

I have heard a wide variety on the ACC, but I think it's pretty unlikely WVU will wind up there. If the SEC ends up raiding the ACC, that could change.

[Ksyrup]

@sptwri: Story going up at Kansascity.com that Missouri has an offer from SEC but that SEC is willing to wait on implosion of Big 12

[JPhillips]

I'll admit I can't see a likely end game for this realignment that doesn't end with WVU getting screwed. Unfortunately they just don't bring much to the table.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

KC Star reporting that Mizzou has been given official invite to SEC. SEC is willing to wait on any response until after OU decision. Sounds like MU may go even without a OU move to the PAC-xx.

Edit: Sorry Ksyrup. Posted from mobile and didn't see your post.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'll admit I can't see a likely end game for this realignment that doesn't end with WVU getting screwed. Unfortunately they just don't bring much to the table.

Again, my long-time bias against WVU makes me glad that they could get screwed (i.e., not in a major conference) but we'll have to wait and see. As much as I picked on Rutgers, I think they're cool, esp. after seeing how huge their NYC market is (despite having little sports successes in recent decades). ACC needs to add UConn and Rutgers could be a good addition to0 but not WVU (besides I don't think VT would allow them anyways).

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'll admit I can't see a likely end game for this realignment that doesn't end with WVU getting screwed. Unfortunately they just don't bring much to the table.

I guess it depends on how you look at it. First, if the SEC goes to 16 as expected, who else are they going to get for the East division?

Even if they stay at 14 (with Missouri as #14), that leaves WVU as probably the best football program in the merged Big 12 and Big East. So long as those 2 combined can keep 1 of their 2 BCS autobids, how is it worse than the Big East right now? I mean, Syracuse and Pitt combined had a losing conference record over the history of the Big East. Depending on the exact lineup, WVU and TCU would likely be the football powers, and WVU, Louisville and Kansas also give you 3 top 20 basketball teams.

I guess it plays out like a disappointment compared to joining the SEC or ACC, of course, but I don't really see it as a drop off from their current position. If they lose the BCS bid, on the other hand, that changes.

[molson]

The Mountain West Commissioner told the Idaho Statesman that they're talking merger with Conference USA. Well, actually the word he used was football-only "federation" rather than merger, presumably with a championship game between the winners of the MWC and C-USA. They're also hoping to get in on the Big 12/Big East scraps.

Could Boise State be headed to a new-look Big 12? Plus more conference realignment talk | Voices.IdahoStatesman.com

[Ksyrup]

@Matt_HayesSN: SN source confirms SEC offer to Mizzou -- and this: SEC only wants 14 teams


If this is true, and WVU news about being rejected from SEC/ACC is true, then WVU seems to be odd man out here.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by molson

The Mountain West Commissioner told the Idaho Statesman that they're talking merger with Conference USA. Well, actually the word he used was football-only "federation" rather than merger, presumably with a championship game between the winners of the MWC and C-USA. They're also hoping to get in on the Big 12/Big East scraps.

Could Boise State be headed to a new-look Big 12? Plus more conference realignment talk | Voices.IdahoStatesman.com

On twitter, people were joking yesterday that they should call themselves the Super Duper Conference.

[panerd]

I will believe the Mizzou deal when they officially join the SEC. Color me a skeptic after "Mizzou to the Big Ten" and "Painter to leave Purdue to Mizzou".

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by molson

The Mountain West Commissioner told the Idaho Statesman that they're talking merger with Conference USA. Well, actually the word he used was football-only "federation" rather than merger, presumably with a championship game between the winners of the MWC and C-USA. They're also hoping to get in on the Big 12/Big East scraps.

Could Boise State be headed to a new-look Big 12? Plus more conference realignment talk | Voices.IdahoStatesman.com

From what I've read, the only real change for the two conferences would be the championship game between the winner of each conference, with a BCS bid on the line...

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by panerd

I will believe the Mizzou deal when they officially join the SEC. Color me a skeptic after "Mizzou to the Big Ten" and "Painter to leave Purdue to Mizzou".

BryanDFischer Bryan Fischer
RT @OkStateModoc: @BryanDFischer from a mizzou fan: "trying not to get too excited. Also heard Matt Painter was our basketball coach."

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

From what I've read, the only real change for the two conferences would be the championship game between the winner of each conference, with a BCS bid on the line...

I gather that it would be essentially a merger in name only then, something set up with divisions based on existing conferences & limited (or no) inter-division play?

I was wondering if there was some quirk of the NCAA rules that allowed for a conference vs conference championship game (I assumed not), something like this would seem like the obvious workaround.

[JeeberD]

Dola-

There's also been plenty of speculation on the CUSA board about the Big East leftovers joining CUSA and the Big 12 leftovers joining the MWC and both conferences then getting a BCS bid, but that's just a pipe dream...

[Toddzilla]

The way I understand the Super Duper Conference to work is that the Mountain West would expand to 12 so each sub-conference (the MW and CUSA) would have it's own championship game and those winners would meet for the BCS slot.

imagine the excitement as Tulsa takes on UNLV for the right to face Alabama in the Sugar Bowl.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I gather that it would be essentially a merger in name only then, something set up with divisions based on existing conferences & limited (or no) inter-division play?

From what I understand, yes. Here's what CUSA commish Britton Banowsky said on the subject yesterday...

The MWC, which has tried to get an automatic qualifier to the BCS to no avail, is seriously pursuing an agreement with C-USA to have a championship game between the two leagues. The idea would need NCAA legislative approval.

"The timing is perfect to be proactive and we are exploring consolidating the two leagues in football only," Thompson said.

Thompson said a sub-committee is expected to meet on the idea next week.

"We could have 22 teams (12 from C-USA and 10 from MWC), does it need to be 24? If so then the Mountain West needs two more members," Thompson said. "We don't know if there will be five or six or seven automatic qualifiers to the BCS."

C-USA commissioner Britton Banowsky confirmed through a statement that the two leagues are working on this deal.

"We find the activities involving conference realignment fascinating," said Banowsky. "We are closely watching the recent developments in other conferences, and the potential for change. At the same time, we are working on some creative consolidation strategies that have the potential for positioning our members well into the future. We are particularly intrigued by cooperative possibilities with the Mountain West."

Thompson said that the two leagues would be run independently in this scenario, but simply share a championship game.

"There are still a lot of moving parts to make this happen," said Thompson. "If we knew that this would garner an automatic bid then we'd be working a whole lot faster."

MWC looking to keep TCU as conferences shift - ESPN

[molson]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

imagine the excitement as Tulsa takes on UNLV for the right to face Alabama in the Sugar Bowl.

I think they would have the potential to have a stronger representative than say, UConn.

[gstelmack]

But I thought playoffs were bad? I love how we keep adding conference championship games, and now cross-conference championship games, but playoffs are a non-starter, as they slowly implement a playoff system...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

But I thought playoffs were bad? I love how we keep adding conference championship games, and now cross-conference championship games,

I don't think anyone is going to end up with a cross-conference title game here though. The easier route (which doesn't seem likely to need any rule changes by the NCAA) would be to merge into a 22-team conference in name only while maintaining separation of the divisions.