Soccer Thread 2011-2012

[terpkristin]

I was just coming to post about the ManU-Arsenal game. Been following the match report online...what the hell is going wrong with Arsenal?!

/tk

[Easy Mac]

they're not from Manchester.

[law90026]

Originally Posted by terpkristin

I was just coming to post about the ManU-Arsenal game. Been following the match report online...what the hell is going wrong with Arsenal?!

/tk

Depends on who you want to believe. I firmly believe Wenger (the Arsenal manager) has lost it and it's long past time for him to go.

His supporters will insist its the owners that refuse to spend money to improve the side and sanction the sale of the club's best players. I think that's BS but that's the other view.

[Oilers9911]

Wenger has turned them into a squad of players that are completely out of their depth. He'll be lucky to survive this.

[Big Fo]

That was just amazing. Basically the whole game from de Gea's penalty save on was like shooting pure joy straight into my veins.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Wenger has turned them into a squad of players that are completely out of their depth. He'll be lucky to survive this.

This. He's trying to play a tactic designed around one of the three most talented squads in Europe with a squad that isn't even in the 6 most talented in the Premiership any more. Painful to watch.

Bottom line is I think the elite players don't want to play for Wenger any more, whether he wants them or not. They are about to pay well over the odds for Cahill who is a nice player but hardly the kind of guy who gets you back among the elite or turns things around. That's the kind of transfer they are going to get stuck making now. Wenger has to go IMO.

Also just saw this on the BBC twitter feed, sums it up pretty nicely:

"Average age of today"s starting 11s: Man Utd 23 v Arsenal 23.6. Quality youth vs Average youth. The Arsenal myth exposed. Case Closed."

[DaddyTorgo]

Holy shit. I mean yeah Arsenal are bound to struggle without Cesc and Nasri...but wtf...why bother guys? Just forfeit before the game instead of getting embarrassed like that.

[-apoc-]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Holy shit. I mean yeah Arsenal are bound to struggle without Cesc and Nasri...but wtf...why bother guys? Just forfeit before the game instead of getting embarrassed like that.

Or Song, Gervinho, Sagna, Gibbs, Frimpong (haha), Wilshere, Verm. It is still damn embarrassing but it is not the end of the road for Arsenal yet.

[bhlloy]

meh... there's maybe three players on that list who would even get on United's bench. If that's who you think is going to turn things around for Arsenal you are as delusional as Wenger.

[DaddyTorgo]

Gervinho and Wilshire are class.

Neither has demonstrated the ability to be the focal point of a team's offense for a team playing at the level that Arsenal want to be playing at though.

[-apoc-]

I have no delusions we are fighting for the title. We are in a 3 way battle for 4th with Liverpool and the Scum from down the road though I think it is more vs pool. We are not on the same tier as City, Chelsea or United anymore we simply can not afford to be until/if FFP kicks in and has any teeth.

[henry296]

Just imagine all the complaints if that was the score in a FM game.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by henry296

Just imagine all the complaints if that was the score in a FM game.

I tweeted something along those lines during the match - shocking score, Arsenal were always going to be affected by losing two of their best players but .....

[sovereignstar v2]

Arsenal will have to give up 10 goals in a match before Wenger realizes he needs defensive reinforcements.

[sovereignstar v2]

Edin 'The Bust' Dzeko scores 4. Nasri with 2 assists. Happy times.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by -apoc-

Or Song, Gervinho, Sagna, Gibbs, Frimpong (haha), Wilshere, Verm. It is still damn embarrassing but it is not the end of the road for Arsenal yet.

The first point is this one. They may not match Man U, but that group represents 6 of the 11 first team starters for Arsenal. (Sagna, Verm, Gibbs, Song, Wilshire, Gervinho) Add in no replacements for Cecs or Nasri and you have a lineup that really only featured 3 guys who were locked in starters at the end of July. (and I'm not all that displeased with Walcott, Szeny or Van Persie. . . none of them have any help right now)

Verm, Sagna and Song make up 3/5 of the starting defense. (which actually hadn't been that horrible this year thus far) Gervinho is our best creator at this point. Wilshire probably our best overall player. Gibbs. . . ok, he sucks. I actually like Frimpong, but he isn't at Song's level yet.

If you want to make fun of that group, I can live with that, but don't try to pretend they aren't MASSIVELY better than Traore, Coquilin, Jenkinson, Rosicky, and Djourou.

The obvious problem is Arsenal need to bring in both both defensive and midfield help and nobody truly knows if it's Wenger or the board who refuse to do it. The season is really going to come down to the next three days. If players are purchased, Arsenal will recover from this and battle it out for a top 4 spot. (may not get it, but they'll be in the top 6 and life will go on)

If they don't purchase players, I think there is a real chance they miss any European football next year. That means Wenger will certainly be shown the door and someone new comes in.

[whomario]

Some of the big guns in Europe with really impressive performances over the weekend. Besides the english teams covered here, over in Spain Real and Barca also had amazing first league games.
Real beat Saragossa 6-0 and Barca beat Villareal (4th place last year) 5-0.

Barca today was without Pique, Puyol and Alves and up front played with Xavi and David Villa on the bench until it was allready 4-0...

Their system and the way they execute it is just insane, today (due to Pique and Puyol missing the game) they played Mascherano and Busquets in the CB spots, both are normally defensive midfielders, i don´t think that would work on many other team.
Real very impressive as well though.

[Big Fo]

Ronaldo had one of the easier hat-tricks I have seen in that 6-0 win.

USA fans won't get to see Fabian Johnson make his debut this week, the paperwork for his Germany -> USA switch wasn't completed on time. He will still travel and practice with the team though. I was looking forward to seeing him, if he could be even an adequate left back for the national team it'd be huge for us.

Also, Zach Loyd and Heath Pearce have withdrawn with injuries and they have been replaced by Jonathan Spector and Chris Pontius. Clint Dempsey will miss the Costa Rica game but ought to be back for the Belgium game.

[RainMaker]

Is it me or does it seem like there is an even larger gap from the top teams and the rest in those leagues?

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Ronaldo had one of the easier hat-tricks I have seen in that 6-0 win.

USA fans won't get to see Fabian Johnson make his debut this week, the paperwork for his Germany -> USA switch wasn't completed on time. He will still travel and practice with the team though. I was looking forward to seeing him, if he could be even an adequate left back for the national team it'd be huge for us.

Also, Zach Loyd and Heath Pearce have withdrawn with injuries and they have been replaced by Jonathan Spector and Chris Pontius. Clint Dempsey will miss the Costa Rica game but ought to be back for the Belgium game.

Party boy!

[MrBug708]

Report: Spanish club Sevilla pondering move for Dempsey | MLSsoccer.com

Sevilla interested in Dempsey

[Icy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Is it me or does it seem like there is an even larger gap from the top teams and the rest in those leagues?

At least in Spain the gap is being bigger and bigger and there are big complains already about the huge $ difference between teams, that grows even more every year as it's tied to titles and TV income sharing. There are some voices talking about a salary cap (but it won't ever happen).

Past two years there have been new records of points and goals scored by R.Madrid and Barcelona, and this year it looks even worse after the first games, with Madrid and Barcelona winning 0-6 and 5-0.

It seems that the winner of La liga (R.Madrid or Barcelona) will just lose one or two games, against the other top team. The rest of teams will fight to finish 3rd or 4th to win an spot in the Champion League.

I'm a R.Madrid fan and of course love to see them scoring 6 goals per game, but i must admit that there is little excitement unless it's a game vs Barcelona.

[Marc Vaughan]

At least in Spain the gap is being bigger and bigger and there are big complains already about the huge $ difference between teams, that grows even more every year as it's tied to titles and TV income sharing. There are some voices talking about a salary cap (but it won't ever happen)

Its definitely getting more extreme in my opinion - previously the bigger teams had a stronger side, now its at the stage where frequently the bench players for the larger teams are better than the best starting players for many of the smaller sides in a league.

I'm hoping that this will be mitigated somewhat going forward by financial regulation and the home grown rule - but time will tell ....

[whomario]

Arsenal reportedly has signed Per Mertesacker (26 years old, 75 caps for germany allready) for 8-10 mio pounds. As long as it´s not a mass exodus, i´m very happy to see german top players go abroad and for Mertesacker it was definitely the right time to go.
Is finally healthy again and should be in his peak years as a player.

Had a dismal season last year, but was playing injured for long stretches. Corrected that with an operation over the summer and has looked very good early, more agile than ever (which still isn´t very agile though ).
He´s very good in the air and a great defensive player overall who has a great feel for positioning, building up play isn´t his strong suit though.
If he´s really healthy this is a class signing for Arsenal, you don´t get 75

Arsenal reportedly also offered a huge amount of money (25-30 mio pounds) for Mario Goetze with Dortmund politely declining.

[MrBug708]

Now the rumors are Dempsey to Arsenal

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Its definitely getting more extreme in my opinion - previously the bigger teams had a stronger side, now its at the stage where frequently the bench players for the larger teams are better than the best starting players for many of the smaller sides in a league.

I'm hoping that this will be mitigated somewhat going forward by financial regulation and the home grown rule - but time will tell ....

Has there ever been talk of a European League? Similar to the Champions League but making that the primary league for the top teams. So instead of Man U playing in the EPL, they'd play in a Champions League that would have a 38 game season with the top teams in Europe. You can setup a relegation/promotion system with each domestic league too.

I know there is tradition and all, but it sort of seems silly to have domestic leagues when only a few teams are relevant in them anymore.

[whomario]

then you´d have leagues with no "relevant" teams in them which would kill those leagues and the 2nd tier teams almost immediately.

Take the big teams out of leagues and you´ll have TV revenue and sponsorship money go back big time because everybody will want to get in on the super league. Esepcially since contrary to the CL, dates would overlap.

[RainMaker]

But wouldn't TV revenue be made up for with the new CL? That would have to bring in some huge money considering the top teams would actually be playing other top teams regularly.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But wouldn't TV revenue be made up for with the new CL? That would have to bring in some huge money considering the top teams would actually be playing other top teams regularly.

If it would get spread around evenly and down to the normal leagues, sure. But it doesn´t get spread around fairly as it is in some leagues (spain most of all), why would it be different then ?
After all, the current Champions League money goes to participants only as well.

Personally, even if it were created perfectly i wouldn´t want it. It´d be overkill having the big teams play each other all the time.

But maybe i´m also biased towards the current system because "my" domestic league is rather balanced. Of course there´s Bayern munich earning more than all other teams combined, but they have that unique quality to shoot themselves in the foot every other year

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by whomario

Arsenal reportedly has signed Per Mertesacker (26 years old, 75 caps for germany allready) for 8-10 mio pounds. As long as it´s not a mass exodus, i´m very happy to see german top players go abroad and for Mertesacker it was definitely the right time to go.
Is finally healthy again and should be in his peak years as a player.

Had a dismal season last year, but was playing injured for long stretches. Corrected that with an operation over the summer and has looked very good early, more agile than ever (which still isn´t very agile though ).
He´s very good in the air and a great defensive player overall who has a great feel for positioning, building up play isn´t his strong suit though.
If he´s really healthy this is a class signing for Arsenal, you don´t get 75

Arsenal reportedly also offered a huge amount of money (25-30 mio pounds) for Mario Goetze with Dortmund politely declining.

Chu-Young signed for the front, Mersacker and Santos joining for the back. That leaves a hole in the middle for a creator. Not sure on Chu-Young with his military commitment in a couple of years, but it does give some depth up front. A back line of Sagna, Verm, Mersacker, and Santos could be fairly solid. (I know Santos isn't a great defender, but he gives you three guys in the back who can pass the ball and be part of the build up while Meracker sits back.

So one more game with all of the suspensions to deal with and Arsenal can throw out a first 11 lineup of:

GK - Szchezesny
RB - Sagna
DC - Mertesacker
DC - Vermaelin
LB - Santos
DMC - Song
MC - Wilshire
MC - Ramsey
AMR - Walcott
AML - Gervinho
FC - Van Persie

with a bench of Gibbs, Kochesky, Djourou, Frimpong, Rosicky (ugh), Arshavin, Myachi, Chamberlain, Chu-Young, Jenkinson, Chamakh and Campbell.

Not good enough to challenge for first, but certainly good enough to battle it out for 4th. I'd just really like a solid creative MC to come in so Ramsey could slide to the bench. The question is who they can get at this point.

[TroyF]

One other thing, am I the only guy who hears a rumor about any player I don't know on a transfer story and instantly looks up his ratings in FM?

[law90026]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Has there ever been talk of a European League? Similar to the Champions League but making that the primary league for the top teams. So instead of Man U playing in the EPL, they'd play in a Champions League that would have a 38 game season with the top teams in Europe. You can setup a relegation/promotion system with each domestic league too.

I know there is tradition and all, but it sort of seems silly to have domestic leagues when only a few teams are relevant in them anymore.

There used to be talk of a breakaway league involving some of the biggest clubs in Europe (England was Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea I think; Italy was the 2 Milan clubs, Juve; etc).

But it never got anywhere and I can imagine the logistics of arranging such a league would be a nightmare (revenue shares, tv rights, etc).

For the idea of a top league, the issue there is that you are going to have some absolutely small sides from the smaller EU nations that are going to get whipped on a near-weekly basis by the big boys. Not sure that would be good for anyone.

[law90026]

Re Arsenal's signing spree:

I am really glad they have started to actually sign people. Not sure why it couldn't have been done sooner but it is what it is.

Goetze apparently is a no-go now which only leaves M'villa and Hazard as the known options. Rumours of Sneijder are too far-fetched I think. I agree though that they need one more good player in midfield and they are back on track for 4th this year.

[Marc Vaughan]

I know there is tradition and all, but it sort of seems silly to have domestic leagues when only a few teams are relevant in them anymore.

Ignoring the fact that personally I detest big-money in sports and all that goes with it .... and as such would hate a European league passionately.

The problem with a European league and why it will always break down is simply that once one was established within 10-15 years you'd end up with exactly the same issue but at that level - that is that there would be 4-5 'larger' clubs whom the other 'big clubs' wouldn't be able to compete with.

If it wasn't for the multi-billionaires and other artificial constructs which exist purely to bankroll clubs above their natural revenue/spending patterns then the leagues would be far more balanced and competitive imho .... even if scaled up by taking the biggest clubs into their own league you'd end up with a similar thing, the only difference would be that those 'big' clubs would artificially inflate prices yet more in an attempt to one-up each other and force the weaker (comparatively) financial clubs out of competition.

[TroyF]

Well, Arsenal had a pretty good day on the market.

Mertesacker, Santos and Chu-Young were all finalized.

Benayoun was added for an experienced creator.

And then right before the clock struck at the deadline, it looks like they've grabbed Arteta.

If the Arteta deal is truly done, it's a huge, huge move for the Gunners. The lineup they threw out last week was a championship side lineup with morale plundering. Getting much needed support both on defense and in the midfield is gigantic.

A lineup of:

GK - Szchezesny
RB - Sagna
DC - Mertesacker
DC - Vermaelin
LB - Santos
DMC - Song
MC - Wilshire
MC - Arteta
AMR - Walcott
AML - Gervinho
FC - Van Persie

Bench: Gibbs, Jenkinson, Djourou, Koscielny, Frimpong, Benayoun, Rosicky, Arshavin, Myachi, Chamberlain, Chu-Young, Chamakh and the goaltenders.

Suddenly there are kids, vets, and actual depth at most positions. And when reasonably healthy, they'll put a lineup out there that will easily be top 6, and might be a lot better. All in all a very good day. Now it's time to maybe get an EPL win again.

[law90026]

I feel a bit meh about the Arsenal deals. It just feels (a) like panic buys and (b) settling for 2nd choice (or even 3rd choice) for some of the purchases. And once again, the club makes a nice big profit on the sale of players.

Arteta is basically Cesc lite, just older. Hopefully he can play at the high level he used to be able to reach but this signing was probably my favourite of the lot.

Benayoun is meh in my opinion. It's never a good thing when your supposed title rivals are prepared to loan you one of their players. Indicates there simply isn't much there anymore (or that you're no longer a rival). I think he''ll have some good games but he's a squad player at best.

Santos is an unknown to me. Everything I've read indicates he's an offensive player rather than a real leftback. Not sure how that's going to pan out.

Per is a solid signing if (a) he hasn't lost it and (b) his lack of pace isn't terribly exposed. There was an article which showed how his match ratings in the Bundesliga have steadily been declining for the past 4 years ... that's not a good sign. I want to hope for the best here but I just don't know if he will be able to hack it in the PL.

Park is a 2 year stopgap. He will be a good rotation player but not a star.

I think Arsenal have signed enough quality to ensure they will be around 4th or 5th place at the end of the year but there just didn't seem to be much ambition in terms of trying for more. Maybe that's the reality of the PL now.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by law90026

I feel a bit meh about the Arsenal deals. It just feels (a) like panic buys and (b) settling for 2nd choice (or even 3rd choice) for some of the purchases. And once again, the club makes a nice big profit on the sale of players.

Arteta is basically Cesc lite, just older. Hopefully he can play at the high level he used to be able to reach but this signing was probably my favourite of the lot.

Benayoun is meh in my opinion. It's never a good thing when your supposed title rivals are prepared to loan you one of their players. Indicates there simply isn't much there anymore (or that you're no longer a rival). I think he''ll have some good games but he's a squad player at best.

Santos is an unknown to me. Everything I've read indicates he's an offensive player rather than a real leftback. Not sure how that's going to pan out.

Per is a solid signing if (a) he hasn't lost it and (b) his lack of pace isn't terribly exposed. There was an article which showed how his match ratings in the Bundesliga have steadily been declining for the past 4 years ... that's not a good sign. I want to hope for the best here but I just don't know if he will be able to hack it in the PL.

Park is a 2 year stopgap. He will be a good rotation player but not a star.

I think Arsenal have signed enough quality to ensure they will be around 4th or 5th place at the end of the year but there just didn't seem to be much ambition in terms of trying for more. Maybe that's the reality of the PL now.

I think that's EXACTLY what they did. Get enough to get 4th or 5th and then go from there. I think even more important than getting the players is the fact it gives the young guys some leadership and everyone (including Arshavin, Walcott, Gibbs and Ramsey) are going to have to fight for their places in the lineup. Lets face it, last week against the Red Devils, if you were healthy and not suspended, you played. Even if we had all of our health and no suspensions, the first 11 were essentially set in stone.

It looks like yet another trophyless year, but I at least like some of the kids and think if they develop them this year, next year could be a whole lot better. Szcez, Frimpong, Myachi, Chamberlain, and Wilshire are all kids. See which of them step up this year, see which of the added vets makes a difference and then we just have to pray next summer they finally open the checkbook and get some guys who are made for the system. (Eden Hazzard comes to mind fairly quickly)

If they don't, then we are looking at a battle for 4th to 7th every year and can forget about being consistent challengers.

If that's the case, we'll at least always have the invincibles. lol

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by TroyF

One other thing, am I the only guy who hears a rumor about any player I don't know on a transfer story and instantly looks up his ratings in FM?

For that matter, is Everton still using FM's database to scout potential signings?

[whomario]

Mertesacker´s "steady decline" in ratings was very marginal and even in 09/10 he was still the 6th best defender in the Bundesliga by the ratings of the paper "Kicker" that likely were quoted in the articel (1st, 1st, 3rd before that).

He then absolutely had a bad 10/11 season where he battled injury and his partner at CB (Naldo) missed the entire season with no clear replacement (he was partnered with like half a dozen guys) and the whole team having a dismal season after loosing other key guys in transfers or due to injuries.

[law90026]

Originally Posted by whomario

Mertesacker´s "steady decline" in ratings was very marginal and even in 09/10 he was still the 6th best defender in the Bundesliga by the ratings of the paper "Kicker" that likely were quoted in the articel (1st, 1st, 3rd before that).

He then absolutely had a bad 10/11 season where he battled injury and his partner at CB (Naldo) missed the entire season with no clear replacement (he was partnered with like half a dozen guys) and the whole team having a dismal season after loosing other key guys in transfers or due to injuries.

You could be right. I want you to be right!

The blog that I read which refers to his decline: Mertesacker’s strange decline at Alexej Behnisch

[whomario]

Originally Posted by law90026

You could be right. I want you to be right!

The blog that I read which refers to his decline: Mertesacker’s strange decline at Alexej Behnisch

yeah, those are the ratings i thought they´d use. And a drop of 0,1 over 3 seasons really is marginal You also have to consider that he doesn´t score much from FKs/Corners which tend to boost some other CBs ratings.

He today made his first interview regarding the transfer or rather was asked about it at the official press conference for tomorrow´s national team clash with Austria and you could really see a light in his eyes when he talked about Arsenal and him having a emotional connection to the club (walking around in Arsenal jersey´s as a youngster for example)

Hope he is successfull at Arsenal, really is a likeable guy.

[AlexB]

Best line I heard yesterday on the transfer window moves:

Reports that a world class full back was spotted at Villa Park proved to be false - turns out it was just Hutton dressed as Lahm

[Critch]

I think Arsenal did well, especially when it became apparent that M'Vila and Hazard weren't on.

Arteta is just what they need, a controlled, creative player with experience to fit into midfield. He might not be Cesc, but he's an upgrade in midfield as long as he can stay fit. Song and Arteta looks better than Frimpong and Ramsay. (Not that I don't think they'll both be good eventually, especially Frimpong).

Mertesacker will be solid as long as he and Vermaelen can stay fit and form a regular partnership in the middle. As long as they don't get stuck with a central defence rotation like they have recently. Benayoun is a bit hot and cold, but if he means less Rosicky (or maybe Arshavin) he cant be bad.

Dont know much about Andre Santos, but he's an experienced international with a number of Brazil caps, so how bad can he be? I thought Gibbs did pretty well before getting injured, but if they want to compete they need somebody more experienced. Cant win with kids, as Alan Hansen once said

Park Ju Young means a buttload of shirts sold in South Korea apparently, also means the end for Chamakh too, I guess. Looking forward to seeing Miyaichi to see if he lives up the the hype too.

Chelsea getting Meireles to add to last week's Mata still looks the biggest upgrade for one of the big teams though.

[MIJB#19]

Poor San Marino...

[cartman]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Poor San Marino...

That game sure was a nail biter!

[cartman]

Oh wait, 11-0, not 1-0...

[bhlloy]

Back in the days of everyone getting their scores from the teleprompter at 4:45 in the UK, I think it did actually happen that a team won 10-1, and the BBC just assumed it had been sent over wrong from the copy and told everyone the team had lost 0-1.

Pretty much par for the course when the #1 ranked team in the world plays the bottom ranked team I guess. Doesn't San Marino have one player who is pretty decent and plays at a high level in Serie A?

[Katon]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Back in the days of everyone getting their scores from the teleprompter at 4:45 in the UK, I think it did actually happen that a team won 10-1, and the BBC just assumed it had been sent over wrong from the copy and told everyone the team had lost 0-1.

I've heard it said (although never with a clear citation) that the reverse happened after the 1950 World Cup - England were supposed to have beaten the US by nine, according to a few newspapers.

[bhlloy]

Yeah that's the story I was thinking of. So basically I got every single detail wrong

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Pretty much par for the course when the #1 ranked team in the world plays the bottom ranked team I guess. Doesn't San Marino have one player who is pretty decent and plays at a high level in Serie A?

I don't care much for the FIFA Ranking, aside from that it has a big impact in FIFA World Cup (qualifiers) seeding, but that #1 spot isn't all that undeserved. I'm pretty sure the last competitive match that our boys lost in regulation was the 2006 World Cup classic vs Portugal, the one with 4 players sent off. (In 2008 and 2010 it was in overtime that Russia and Spain beat us.)

The 11-0 is a new Oranje record, the old highest win ever (apparently) was 9-0. At the same time it wasn't even much of an exciting game, between minute 20 and 45 it was almost boring. The second half it was goal after goal, with the 60 minutes mark putting all thre tension on reaching that double digit. It does make me wonder why UEFA thinks it's cool to have these kind of games...