a-11 offense (the mother of all spread offenses)

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

Wondering what everyone's thoughts were considering this new spread offense just instituted by a high school coach in California. Just some quick thoughts off the top of my head.
Can this be successful long term?

Could it ever be used in some way in college or the pros?

And is this just asking for your qb to be totally destroyed?

And wouldn't it be cool to see this simulated in a new FOF or bowl bound?




http://www.a11offense.com/

[ISiddiqui]

That's crazy!

[Galaxy]

I love how football (high school and college) always see to come up with new systems.

[MacroGuru]

Well, keeping it in the gun allows for more time.

Its going to force the defense to spread out and handle the multiple receivers.

Obviously it can be stopped, as it happend 3 times in their first season.

Personally, it is gimmicky to me and will be figured out pretty quickly on the defensive side.

[cartman]

I wouldn't knock it just because they lost three games early on. Texas had a similar experience when they introduced the Wishbone, tying and losing their first two games with it, then reeling off 30 straight wins. By then, a ton of colleges started to use it.

I like the wrinkle that they are lining up in a kick formation. That means that none of the players have to declare if they are "eligible" to go downfield, and tip off the defense.

[Swaggs]

Is the player that snaps the ball eligible also?

[Poli]

I'm not sure I'd be overly concerned. Spread your defense out accordingly. With a 4-3, I'd send a corner, OLB, and DE out to each side. I'd keep the tackles and MLB inside. I might walk the safeties up some into the alleys. I might have the corners and backers focus their responsibilities on the players actually catching the ball. My guess is that although all eleven are 'eligible' that not everyone's catching the ball. I think I'd try to force their hand and make them get the ball to that 11th man.

Should a player go in motion to one side, I'd send the safety over his way.

If I felt my ends couldn't get the job done out wide, I might sub them.


Shrug.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Is the player that snaps the ball eligible also?

Yep.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I have to admit that I'm confused. Which fundamental piece of the rules am I missing here? As I understand it, there must be 7 players on the line of scrimmage. The five between the ends are not eligible. How does that change in a scrimmage kick formation? Is this to mean that if a team lines up for a traditional field goal attempt, anybody could go downfield and be an eligible receiver as long as he's wearing one of the eligible uniform numbers? From the diagram in the first post here, it looks like only the center is on the line of scrimmage. How is that even a legal formation?

I'm confused. I understand that I must be missing something really simple, but I just don't get it.

[Poli]

I could be off, but they 'do' have 7 on the line. Much like the double wing, being on the line can mean being aligned along the midline of the center. Meaning it could be hard for a defender to tell.

Additionally, shifting could instantly take some of the players that were ineligible and make them eligible.

[Poli]

Bsak can probably explain it better being the ref that he is.

[Ryche]

I would think a version of a zone blitz could destroy this. Rush 3, drop back 8. Mix up the 3 rushing and someone is going to come through untouched pretty much every time.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by cartman

Texas had a similar experience when they introduced the Wishbone, tying and losing their first two games with it, then reeling off 30 straight wins. By then, a ton of colleges started to use it.

Yep, invented in Texas and perfected in Oklahoma.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I'm confused. I understand that I must be missing something really simple, but I just don't get it.

They have video clips of it up. The diagram in the original post is misleading. They use a lot of shifting and motion to move players in and out of eligible and ineligible positions. On the passing plays, you usually see the 3 linemen and 2 of the wide outs stay back to pass block. They also run a lot of roll-outs and draws. From what I saw, they have a pretty fast QB to get away from pressure (which he got a lot of).

[Cringer]

I don't like it. I am not saying it doesn't work, it clearly did in the video I watched. It is just not the style of football I would want to run. My biggest problem was, when they clearly wanted to run the ball they couldn't at all. Their best running play was the QB draw, not a bad thing IF you have the QB to do it.

I didn't see any real trouble from the defensive side. Good pressure on the QB, I bet if they go up against a real stud DLman they have a bunch of trouble. A bunch of short dinking and dunking passes, and I see wide open WRs as much as in a normal offense.

Overall, it is a good way to take advantage of your top athletes. And it totally screws over any kid who wants to play on the o-line.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I have to admit that I'm confused. Which fundamental piece of the rules am I missing here? As I understand it, there must be 7 players on the line of scrimmage. The five between the ends are not eligible. How does that change in a scrimmage kick formation? Is this to mean that if a team lines up for a traditional field goal attempt, anybody could go downfield and be an eligible receiver as long as he's wearing one of the eligible uniform numbers? From the diagram in the first post here, it looks like only the center is on the line of scrimmage. How is that even a legal formation?

I'm confused. I understand that I must be missing something really simple, but I just don't get it.

The graphic is clearly oversimplifying it. Just like a flanker who is outside the tight end is obliged to start a play from a couple yards behind the LOS to ensure that the TE is eligible, so must certain players in this formation step back from the line and technically start the play in the backfield. That's not very well communicated in the graphic or description.

What would be challenging, of course, is that just by shifting a few feet each, you could go from three eligible receivers on the left side to one end and two linemen, and suddenly move two other players to eligible positions.

[Zelig]

It is a little more complicated that that. We had a big discussion back in April on this at American Football Monthly - a coaching forum.

The A-11 Offense: You Have to See it to Believe it
by: Mike Kuchar
April 2008
Copyright American Football Monthly

Warning: Although completely accurate, the following information may seem preposterous, even downright offensive, to some defensive coaches and those conventional offensive coordinators who have grown accustomed to running the same scheme year after year and too set in their ways to change. All skill players on the field at the same time? Every player can be eligible on any given play? It’s real. It’s all real. So real that we got film to prove it – right now as a matter of fact on AmericanFootballMonthly.com. So before you get any further, put this article down, get on your computer and check it out. Go ahead, you won’t believe your eyes.

Now do you believe us? We don’t blame you for being a little skeptical. In fact, nobody believed Head Coach Kurt Bryan at Piedmont High School (CA) either when he and Assistant Coach Steve Humphries dreamed up this scheme over a year ago in the bowels of the football office at Piedmont. They say the mother of all invention is necessity, and Bryan found it necessary to be able to compete against schools that were twice the size of the 800-student enrollment that he had. As a one-back, west coast style offense the previous season, Piedmont was 5-5, struggling to edge their way into the playoffs. So, he got to thinking. The plan was to create a scheme that would spread defenses and get his best athletes on the field at the same time – giving them plenty of grass to work with. But that just wasn’t original enough; most of the country was already shifting to the spread offense. So, Bryan had to come up with something totally different and what he just may have done is completely revolutionize the game of football.

Bryan and Humphries began designing what they initially called ‘Project Pluto’ in the spring of 2007, concocting hundreds of unique formations on paper. The goal was to force defenses to cover the entire field and limit the possibility of getting to the QB, like so many teams were able to do against traditional spread teams. Problem was, whatever they would scheme up would not fly with some of the NFHS (National Foundation of High School) rules.

THE LIGHTBULB
But Bryan and Humphries found a chink in the armor of the NFHS, and it lay in the scrimmage kick formation. According to high school rules, a scrimmage kick formation (most commonly used in punts and drop kicks) is a formation with at least one player seven yards or more behind the neutral zone. There is no player in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs, with the possibility of a kick being attempted. The wheels started to churn. What if we can line up every play, not just fourth downs in a SKF? And what about the possibility of not kicking from the SKF? What if we can put our QB at seven yards as the kicker and run every play out of our system from that formation? They probed further into the rules of the SKF. According to the NFHS, all eligible receivers must wear jersey numbers 1-49 or 80-99, except in a scrimmage kick formation, and it is permitted to line up in a scrimmage kick formation every down. “Does that mean we don’t have to use ineligible numbers?” Bryan and Humphries began to think. Defenses would have a fit trying to figure out who they need to cover. “And what about the long snapper?” Bryan remembers asking himself. “In a punt you have to lay off that kid for a couple of seconds. Wouldn’t the same apply if we lined up every play in a scrimmage kick formation? We’d be able to get every shotgun snap off virtually untouched.” They were onto something big and they knew it.

“We knew by spreading the field from the numbers to the numbers, from left to right, we would force the defense to account for everybody. We wanted to create huge running and passing lanes for our smaller and quicker QBs. Basically we wanted to spread the offense to the extreme,” said Bryan. “We still weren’t totally sure that what we were coming up with was legal, but we knew it was cutting edge,” said Bryan. So, Bryan did the right thing by submitting his master plan to the California Rules Association in the spring before last season. He even invited some of the officials down to Piedmont for a whiteboard discussion and on-field demonstration of the new scheme. Although some of the officials couldn’t believe their eyes, it all checked out. “We really couldn’t figure out anything wrong with it,” said Sam Moriana, a California official with over 50 years of experience at the high school level. “When teams come out in high school in the punt formation, they usually punt. Although it’s not the typical punt formation, I just think that it’s different and innovative and was bound to come along. Kurt showed everybody what he was going to do. He didn’t hide anything.”

THE BLUEPRINT
Bryan named his new design the A-11 offense, which stands for ‘All Eleven Players Potentially Eligible.’ It features up to all eleven players wearing an eligible receiver jersey with the potential of two QBs in the shotgun formation. There is no one under center (that would violate SKF rules), thereby meeting the criteria for a scrimmage kick formation. In order to get the proper spacing, Bryan divides the field into thirds or pods (Diagram 1). Diagram 1:'Pods'

The left hash to the left sideline is the red pod; between the hashes denotes the white pod; and the right hash to the right sideline is the blue pod. The base formation, which Bryan calls 3-5-3 (based on the numbers of players in each pod respectively) features a center with two adjacent linemen – that could be either guards or tight ends in the white pod. The next closest players line up a yard outside the hash with the potential of three to four players in each pod (Diagram 2). Two backs will line up in the backfield, either a running back and QB or two QBs. According to NFHS rules, if two players are in the backfield, the ball must be snapped between the two. So, defenses really never know who is going to get the snap. “We would want two QBs in the backfield in order to have a two-headed monster. Plus, the defense doesn’t know where the ball is going to be snapped. We can run it either way. You want your best athletes back there touching the ball as much as possible,” said Bryan. It was a crazy idea and could never work, right? “It was radical, but every change is. We figured that if we ever got this thing approved by the rules association and we got the green light it would be awesome. Either we would get fired or change the game of football forever. Obviously it worked out pretty well.”

Diagram 2: '3-5-3' Base Formation

After working out some of the initial kinks of a the new system, the Highlanders reeled off seven straight wins, and finished with a 9-3 record, including an undefeated record in league play. Although, the scheme may seem complex, Bryan and his staff worked on developing the most important element of any offense – keeping it simple for the players. “We had to clinic our players on the rules of the game, based on who is eligible or who is not. An eligible numbered player may not be eligible based on where his location is.”

According to high school rules, only five players are eligible to receive a pass on any particular play, with seven total players lining up on the line of scrimmage. Bryan wasn’t getting around that one, but he again found a way to tweak it just enough to create a conflict to the defense. Prior to the snap, in order to satisfy the seven players on the line requirement and to be in correct position for at least one second prior to the snap, the snapper and the six other players usually move onto the line of scrimmage. But that only pertains to a traditional formation. In a SKF, the numbering exception does not take effect until a player establishes himself on the line of scrimmage.

In other words, if all eleven players are off the line they are technically still eligible to receive a pass until they step on the line. And remember in the A-11 every player is wearing an eligible number so it’s virtually impossible to determine who isn’t eligible until it may be too late. Bryan may start in his base formation, but will frequently motion and shift until he gets a numbers advantage in one of the pods, as in ‘shift base out’ (Diagram 3). In this scenario, the R motions across the formation while the B steps on the line of scrimmage, creating a trips look. “We will get the ball according to where they are weak or we have a man advantage. The theory is the ball moves quicker than the man and it proved to be true. If we think we have the advantage inside the hashes (white pod) then we’ll get the ball downhill on a run. If we have an advantage in the red or blue pod, we’ll get the ball out there quickly on a quick screen or some type of flood pattern. The biggest dilemma is that the defense has to determine who is eligible and who isn’t and they only have a split second to do it. It cuts down their communication time,” said Bryan. All the moving and shifting left many opposing coaches scratching their heads.

Diagram 3: 'Shift Base Out'

“The problem for us was twofold,” said Bert Bertero, coach at Saint Mary’s HS, who lost to Piedmont 21-14. “First off, you tend to get caught up in who is eligible and who isn’t. We told our kids that they can’t do the officiating. They need to leave that up to the officials. Secondly, it forces you out of your comfort zone. You almost need to become a two-minute defense just to keep up with their tempo. That is so hard to prepare for because our scout team can’t replicate it within six days of preparing. It really became a distraction during the season because we had to come up with a separate package to defend it.”

THE BASE PLAYS
Despite the complexity of the scheme, Bryan managed to package the base plays he ran out of his west coast style of offense a year ago and bottle them into the A-11 offensive system. “I didn’t want to totally dump all the ideas that we had established a year ago,” said Bryan. “But the biggest change was getting into that shotgun formation. I had never been a shotgun coach in my 21 years of coaching. I hated it. I wasn’t comfortable with it. So if a guy like me can do it, anybody can.” One of the first plays he implemented was Base Wide 10 Option Right (Diagram 4). Here it’s drawn up from Bryan’s base 3-5-3 set against a typical 3-5-3 defensive structure. Bryan will use this in order to take advantage of a walked out, outside linebacker who is flexed wide because of the A-11 formation. On the backside of the play, Bryan teaches his players to scoop the defender in front of them by getting ‘their heels to the play.’ The center and play side tight end will work to hook the nose and tackle while the E back comes screaming inside to pick off the Buck linebacker. After securing the snap, the one back (or QB in this case) will work downhill and attack the inside shoulder of the Sam linebacker while the two back takes a bucket step to get into pitch relationship at 4.5 yards behind the QB. It’s a double option play designed to get the ball outside the hash and in the alley in a hurry.

Diagram 4: 'Base Wide 10 Option Right'

Bryan admits that because most teams were trying to load the white pod (tackle box), he threw the ball more than 70 percent of the time. His most effective pass play while moving the pocket was Base Out Creep 18 Tiger (Diagram 5). Because of having only three players aligned with the snapper, most of the A-11 pass schemes are rollouts in an effort to attack the perimeter and push the pocket. It’s important to remember that on forward pass plays only the end receiver on the line of scrimmage will be eligible. If a player is covered up on the line of scrimmage by another receiver, that player is ineligible. So, in order to seal the backside edge and prevent run-through, he’ll line up the ‘A’ back next to the U. The A, U, Center and Y will all reach block with an attempt to get their heels to the play without going downfield. On the front side of the play, the Z receiver runs an 11-step post curl, making the defender think he’s attacking the post. The E receiver works a five-yard speed out into the flat. If the QB doesn’t get him the ball right away, he’ll convert it into a wheel route. The B player screams hard inside to make what Bryan calls a ‘hunt block’ which means he is sealing the first threat that the defense presents to the edge from outside in. The two-back executes a ‘creep’ technique, which is a short shuffle motion with intent to seal the edge at the point of attack. After securing the snap, the one-back attacks the edge looking for either the E or the Z receiver. Or, if he likes the look backside, the X receiver will be running a post.

Diagram 5: 'Base Out Creep 18 Tiger'

Because ineligible receivers are permitted to go downfield on plays where a forward pass does not travel beyond the neutral zone, Bryan has a ton of screens in his offensive package. One of his most successful screens has been Base Out Stagger One Dink Screen Right (Diagram 6). The idea is to sell the Tiger pass scheme as much as possible, while screening the ball to the two-back. The center will stay engaged with the nose as long as possible; the U and the Y will set to the side of the call (in this case left) flashing a pass pro set for a two-count and work up to the second level. All receivers away from the play will work to seal their head up defenders getting their heels to the play. The three receivers to the side of the play will either try to kick out or seal the defenders in their pod. The two-back will pretend to block the front side defensive end (chip block) for a two-count then turn around expecting the ball. The QB, or one-back, will take a three-step drop, let the defensive line rush up field, then throw a ‘soft dart’ to the two back. If for whatever reason, the front side defensive end doesn’t fall for the screen fake, the QB will push the edge quickly to get him to widen, then dump the ball right underneath him.

Diagram 6: 'Base Out Stagger One Dink Screen Right'

[Ksyrup]

This isn't just a spread offense, this is the Courtney Love of spread offenses.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Is the player that snaps the ball eligible also?

Originally Posted by Poli

Yep.

The center is eligible if and only if he is the last man on the line of scrimmage on that side. Any end is eligible. In any other formation with people on the LOS on each side of him he would be covered and therefore ineligible to catch a pass down field.

[Poli]

It just doesn't 'startle' me, Z. I think a defense that's been prepared for unusual sets and motions would be fine. I'm not sure I'd change much up from my regular defense.

I might move the corner, safety, and OLB over instead of the DE. I think that would challenge the option more.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by bsak16

The center is eligible if and only if he is the last man on the line of scrimmage on that side. Any end is eligible. In any other formation with people on the LOS on each side of him he would be covered and therefore ineligible to catch a pass down field.

Ala the shoestring or swinging gate.

[Ksyrup]

Perhaps Central Michigan's coach can implement this offense for the coming year, so that when they make a great comeback against a good team and are driving to win the game, he can trot out a real gimmick offense instead of trying one stupid gimmick play to lose his team the game.

[stevew]

Just cause something is technically legal, doesn't mean it should be encouraged/exploited to fit into something else. Kick the coach who came up with this garbage in the nuts.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by stevew

Just cause something is technically legal, doesn't mean it should be encouraged/exploited to fit into something else. Kick the coach who came up with this garbage in the nuts.

I bet that's what Grandpa Simpson said about the guy who threw the first forward lateral.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

The Detroit Lions have run an offense for years in which nobody seems eligible.

[Poli]

What's worse? Unless they've changed the rule, one of the players interior players could actually receive the ball legally as well, at least according to Jerry Vallotton.

Vallotton, author of "The Toss" (a double wing book that I borrowed from BYU 14), mentions on page 89 of his book that "the rules state that an offensive lineman must turn and face away from the line of scrimmage (90 degrees) and be one yard deep in the backfied in order to receive the ball legally."

Sounds like something you could do rather easily with this offense.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Poli

What's worse? Unless they've changed the rule, one of the players interior players could actually receive the ball legally as well, at least according to Jerry Vallotton.

Vallotton, author of "The Toss" (a double wing book that I borrowed from BYU 14), mentions on page 89 of his book that "the rules state that an offensive lineman must turn and face away from the line of scrimmage (90 degrees) and be one yard deep in the backfied in order to receive the ball legally."

Sounds like something you could do rather easily with this offense.

Just playing devil's advocate here but if I am lined up across from said lineman and I see him turn like that, I am following him to see if he gets the ball. It could be just like how D-linemen are taught to watch for screens or pulling guards.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by bsak16

Just playing devil's advocate here but if I am lined up across from said lineman and I see him turn like that, I am following him to see if he gets the ball. It could be just like how D-linemen are taught to watch for screens or pulling guards.

True. However, I'd assume if I'm trying anything like this, I'd have a plan for said defensive lineman.

[Warhammer]

I think much of this is due to defenses not being familiar with the offense. I liken this to Arkansas Basketball's 40 minutes of hell. It worked because most teams were not used to playing that style and did not have time during the season to prepare for that style. As more and more teams got used to the system, it became less and less effective. I see the same thing here.

[Zelig]

If it gets the wins, rest assured, it will get the visibility. 7-3 or 6-4 every season won't make this the next wishbone.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Went & looked this team up on MaxPreps, found something interesting.

07-08: 7-4 overall, 239 pts scored
06-07: 5-6 overall, 310 pts scored (same coach)
05-06: 6-4-1 overall, 294 pts scored (previous coach)
04-05: 2-7-1 overall, 183 pts scored (previous coach)

Even if you take away the first two losses with this set (31-2 & 15-7), they averaged 25.5 ppg this year, while averaging 28.2 ppg the previous season with the same coach (presumably) running a more traditional offense.

Although we can't see what the talent gap between the two squads might be, I'm not exactly feeling like this is the offense of the future if it reduces scoring by 3 ppg.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

Small update....

So far Piedmont, the originators of this offense, are 0-2. Losing the first game 21-7 and the second game 61-34.

[Neuqua]

Are they still running the offense?

[Senator]

oh yeah, defense is kinda a big deal.

[Poli]

Revolutionizing football alright.

[BrianD]

I'm not sure if it was mentioned before in this thread, but there is a rule when using the scrimmage kick numbering exceptions that once you take a set position in an ineligible position, you can't shift to an eligible position. Thus, once the 5 ineligible linemen get set, they can be fairly easily identified. The trick is to have the linemen wandering around before taking their set positions to not show who is one the line.

A good defense should be able to run through linemen who aren't true linemen.

Also note that a few states have outlawed the offense as being against the spirit of the game or some such.

[Young Drachma]

Story in the New York Times today about the A-11

High School Football Formation - Offense of the Future, or Just Unfair? - NYTimes.com

I missed this thread the first time, but I love the idea....

[Young Drachma]

I think you've got to be at a place where you can tailor your team to fit the system. But even if it's a gimmick, I dig it. Innovation at the lower levels of sports keeps it interesting. It's like the Grinnell system of basketball where they send players in and out like it's hockey, only shoot three pointers and don't play defense.

It's not intended to be for teams that are well balanced or that have a deep talent pool, you do gimmicks like this to win games you'd never win otherwise. It's just in the era of the web that you can make a web site and try to leverage it as a way to get speaking cash and maybe a job at a higher level.

[Dr. Sak]

DC thanks for the article. I am going to print it out and talk about this in our pregame tonight.

[AgustusM]

Not to be overly pessimistic, but I think this thing has morphed into a money making opportunity and may be part of the reason they are less successful.

when I first heard about this two years I thought it was odd, but understood that at the school they were at if they just lined up in 11 personnel they were going to get pounded. So I could see why they would try it.

However in the past 12 months I have been flooded with offers for all things A-11 such as books, DVD's and even a full week camp. Not that I fault someone for trying to make some money, but it seems like the focus shifted about a year ago.

[BYU 14]

This Offense is pure gimmick and will soon fade out IMO. I think we will see a lot of States refining the rules to be more in line with the College rules regarding the free kick formation. I know the rumor here is AZ is that the AIA already has this on their agenda for the rules meeting after the season.

I agree with AgustusM to some extent regarding the focus.

It is definitely innovative, just not practical.

[Senator]

I talk to the inventor of this offense quite a bit at Coach Huey and I think this morphed into a "Hey, maybe we can stop coaching and sell this offense to make money" venture pretty quick.

[mrsimperless]

I would zone blitz the crap out of this.

[flere-imsaho]

I'd be interested in reading what people have done to stop this offense.

[Senator]

Show up with any other offense. That usually is enough to win.

[Young Drachma]

Highlights from this season so far using the A-11.



They're obviously trying to profit from it, but I can't really fault them for it. And I think that for all of its flaws, they were trying to address problems that certain teams run into and so, while I doubt it'll gain widespread acceptance, I think more and more folks will be turned onto it.

That NY Times article probably just made them some cash for sure, though. Even if it's train wreck watchers or competitors coming to learn about it so they can beat it.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

They are now 3-3, with all 3 wins coming against teams with losing records and all 3 losses coming against teams with winning records.

They are averaging 32 points a game while giving up 27.

[DeToxRox]

Watching those highlights, I don't even see what the big deal is. A lot of those plays the kids have very little seperation, they're just making good plays. I didn't see one time where multiple guys seemed open.

[Young Drachma]

Seems like all of these gimmick systems, where if a good team ran it, you wonder what they could do. If you watch the Grinnell offense in basketball, its the same thing. And it's never yielded anyone a title or anything, but I don't think that they're designed to.

I agree the highlights weren't even remotely impressive, but..I'm guessing it's the "quality" of the schools running it.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Seems like all of these gimmick systems, where if a good team ran it, you wonder what they could do. If you watch the Grinnell offense in basketball, its the same thing. And it's never yielded anyone a title or anything, but I don't think that they're designed to.

I agree the highlights weren't even remotely impressive, but..I'm guessing it's the "quality" of the schools running it.

I would agree. If Long Beach Poly ran this, I assume the results would be absurd, but a team like that doesn't need that gimmick to win.