FOF7 July 30th Developer Chat Log

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

i've said it a million times but it's such a glaring void in the marketplace. there's a zillion nfl fans and probably half of them armchair gm's. the fact that there isn't a yearly AAA football text sim is confounding.

this is why i find jim's ambivalence confusing. it seems like with the proper thrust and the right supporting cast this thing could be hugely popular/profitable a la fm.

as it is i'll take what i can get because even with just a few tweaks 2k7 is still the best sim on the marketplace.

[Goldschmidt]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Solecismic/FOF "State Of The Union" - Front Office Football Central

Wow. That post was almost a little too honest. I picture him with a beard and an old laptop running Windows 98, hammering out code in a cabin off the grid someplace...

[Gallifrey]

If it were a Win98 laptop it would be crashing too often to get any coding done.

Hands down the top improvement for me is the AI team management improvement.

If the best engine on the market gets a tuneup and runs an NFL simulation for me better than it did before when it was already hands down the best NFL simulation engine... I'm ready to play.

I would rather have realistic simulation with no glitz than the other way around.

[scorp]

Excited about the upgrades/fixes that FOF7 will bring, AND that some of the foundation for future upgrades improvements are a part of this too.

[BlackJack]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I feel like SI games still require too much wading to get to information though. I think OOTP got worse after the initial merger and never recovered from it. I think the same thing would happen to FOF.

The current version of OOTP is the best in the history of the series. FOF should aspire to be where Markus has his game.

[Mike7273]

What is FM?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mike7273

What is FM?

Football (as in soccer) manager.

[SirFozzie]

Football Manager, from Sports Interactive.

(it's what a lot of the world calls soccer)

[Mike7273]

Oh. Yuck.

[Dutch]

I agree but FM is pretty friggin' awesome.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Mike7273

Oh. Yuck.

It's the standard for sports sims. Many a posters have been converted to soccer fans based on the game

[FBPro]

Day one purchase!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Solecismic/FOF "State Of The Union" - Front Office Football Central

Ah ha - I stand corrected.

[zullojer]

Thanks to Jim and Ben for taking the the time. Can't wait for a freshened up version of fof, very excited for a coming soon release date post.

As for the talk about graphics and art, pshhhhh. If I want graphics I'll play my playstation, I want numbers baby, and numbers that make sense.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Some of the responses in here remind me of a comment that Markus makes pretty much every year regarding OOTP. Inevitably, someone posts at OOTPDev: "Markus, for this year, how about just fix/tweak the stuff that doesn't work optimally and don't bother with new features!"

And Markus responds essentially: "I have to have major new features or people will get upset and not buy the latest version. I'll do what I can to tweak the stuff I added five years ago and still doesn't really work quite right, but new features come first!" (Yes, I'm paraphrasing, but that's very clearly his message.)

Jim appears to be doing the opposite here: rather than adding a ton of attention-grabbing "new features," it looks like there are some crucial and much-needed tweaks/fixes (SP roster-building AI, free agency offers, scouting algorithm changes, salary structures, end-game time management, WR tweaking, etc.), some very nice new reporting elements (draft history, QB performance, ratings tracking, etc.), and several strategic new features that some would consider small, but that could be game-changing (game film, FTP for MP, staff changes, etc.)

Overall, I'm excited.

I never understood this argument. The tweaks/fixes should be included in the original version, or a patch...not the next game to be purchased.

[azjoe_02]

Where I am right now in life doesn't allow me any time to really dedicate to controlling a MP team, though it was a lot of fun - much more so than SP.

With that being said, this news of an improved AI, is a boon for me.

Thank you Jim!

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by BlackJack

The current version of OOTP is the best in the history of the series. FOF should aspire to be where Markus has his game.

Maybe. Haven't bothered with it, but 6.5 is still the best in the series IMO.

[sjshaw]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

(And surely hope he makes uploading MP exports easier..it's what keeps me away from that side of the game.)

I thought it was eLicense refusing to answer your emails requesting a license reset.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Maybe. Haven't bothered with it, but 6.5 is still the best in the series IMO.

It's been great since v12.

[Solecismic]

I just wanted to mention a couple of things.

First, I really appreciate those who share this desire to have a football simulation that captures what coaches do during games. And I'd like to keep adding GM function as well.

I never dismiss a popular feature request without thought. If I could provide custom league sizes/divisions in a short amount of time, I'd do it. I just don't think it would be a good business decision to spend most of an entire development cycle on it. It's surprising how much those little divisions impact.

There will come a time when one person can no longer create a viable product solo. That time may have already come. If so, it's time to get a real job. No hard feelings.

[A-Husker-4-Life]

I honestly don't care about league customization sizes, all your updates sound f**king great. Don't let acouple people bring you down, this announcement is EPIC.. I can't wait to see fof7, keep up all the hard work..

[Mota]

While I tend more towards the GM side vs. coaching side, I'm definitely in for this one, as I will be for any sports sim that Jim makes. It's been so long since a new version, I am really looking forward to all of the improvements!

[Gallifrey]

Originally Posted by A-Husker-4-Life

I honestly don't care about league customization sizes, all your updates sound f**king great. Don't let acouple people bring you down, this announcement is EPIC.. I can't wait to see fof7, keep up all the hard work..

I agree.

[Firefly]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

I've said it before, I'll say it again: the main issue I have with the UI is the modal nature of the windows. I want a roster window AND the depth chart window open at once. Otherwise the actual presentation is fine for me for what the game does.

Aside from that, there are usability improvements as alluded to. Weight training was a chore, for example, and could be very streamlined if you had a single screen report of everyone's weight status along with buttons to train up / down for each player. Interviews are similar.

That would be awesome.

As far as the people who think this game could be a big commercial hit, I don't get it. Sure, there are a bunch of football fans out there, but how many are as nerdy as to want a simulation rather than a pretty button punching game? Other than the people here, I mean?

It's great that the AI algorithms (wink wink) are going to improve, very good news. That staff draft thing sounds weird, let's see how it works out in practice. Will we need another draft utility to run that?

[PhinsFan]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I just wanted to mention a couple of things.

First, I really appreciate those who share this desire to have a football simulation that captures what coaches do during games. And I'd like to keep adding GM function as well.

I never dismiss a popular feature request without thought. If I could provide custom league sizes/divisions in a short amount of time, I'd do it. I just don't think it would be a good business decision to spend most of an entire development cycle on it. It's surprising how much those little divisions impact.

There will come a time when one person can no longer create a viable product solo. That time may have already come. If so, it's time to get a real job. No hard feelings.

1st off Thanks Jim for doing the chat and thanks to Ben for setting it up.

2nd I hope the customization thing doesn't discourage you from moving forward with the game. I can see why people want it, but I think most of the follower of this game may not care about. For me the custom league feature isn't a big deal.

I'm sure you've already thought about this but figured I'd mention it anyway, Get the game where you want it to be for this fall, then work on the custom league sizes/divisions during the following year and release a new game next fall with those custom features in place. Possibly give a discount to those of us that buy the game this fall.

I am not into the single player much, I like multi player. So my hope is the new game will transition easily to the MP leagues I'm already a part of. I am commissioner of one of the leagues and I am wondering how difficult it will be to transition the league over to the new game, it is my main concern for now.

The game sounds very promising as a whole. I'll admit that I would like to see a sexy/flashy game but it's not what this game is about really. The most important parts are the game engine remaining solid and the new features being user friendly. It was mentioned before that it would be nice to have more than 1 window open at a time as well as streamlining the game plan screens. I believe you touched on these topics in your chat.

I'm looking forward to the new game, keep up the good work Jim.

[Sef0r]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

That doesn't mean that at all. TCY imports were there for FOF4, FOF2K4, and FOF2K7 even as more ratings were added. The new ratings aren't in TCY imports.

didn't know that. Thanks...looking forward to seeing how he implements some of these new features, especially scouting, coaches and gameplanning

[Dutch]

I'm not one to throw a lot of pro-Jim stuff out there, usually because I've got my constructive criticism glasses on, but I'm not a fan of seeing Jim focus on the negatives of this thread.

So with that being said, the idea of FOF being a one-man show (essentially) is inspiring in this day and age. So I think we could all use a little bit of expectation management. Not to say the criticism aren't warranted, but most of us, I suspect (myself included), simply have no idea how long it takes to become this proficient at programing and then realize the dream into an actual product.

Once we put it into perspective, Jim has conquered some pretty serious programming ground with regard to pro football (and college football). He's still THE ONLY programmer to deliver a career management simulation of football that somewhat realistically mimics real real football. At least the player develop curves and most stats are pretty spot on. And the GP'ing stuff and logic was getting better with each version...

There is no art team, there is no PR team (sans Ben E Lou), there is no Philharmonic Orchestra doing the opening musical score nor NFL Films doing the opening dialogue (except on RNFL's front page that is), there aren't any PC to MAC conversion teams, there isn't a distribution team, there isn't a game engine design and test team, there isn't a UI design and test team, there isn't boom operator, or an exclusive catering service. It's just.....Jim.

And for Jim to take a life-pause, go through so much real-life drama and then re-appear ready to get back on this beast of a program he's built, is inspiring, to say the least.

I think most of the discussions here are fair, but I wanted to make sure that after all that, we should still say...Jim, your efforts are very much appreciated. Quite simply, your game rocks.

Now, you mentioned that doing annual updates seems like something you don't want to do, but I would be okay with that. I spend my money on all kinds of stupid bullshit, if I could come away with an low-expectations/updated version of FOF each year for my troubles, I'd be better off right now. Even if the updates just fix game engines issues you find, adds rosters, and whatever else comes along that you dream up that you think YOUR game needs...it would be just fine by me.

[MalcPow]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I am pleased beyond words that there's going to be a new version of this game, and Jim has proven to me that he understands what I want out of a game like this far better than any other develop ever has. I'm not going to dwell on too many specifics, I'm just really happy to see this coming together.

I will say that the space it takes to talk about better AI decision making and so forth -- that really undervalues that sort of effort. No, it's not an eye-catching "new feature" but that is the bread and butter of these games, and Jim's ongoing attention to this sort of thing is why FOF, even six years old, remains the absolute titan in its niche.

I have every reason to believe and expect that a great game is going to get better. I'm in.

This basically captures all my feelings. I'm really looking forward to this game.

[aston217]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Dola:

And frankly, I'm particularly encouraged that Jim is listening to the community. Roughly three months ago, he posted in this forum and essentially said that tracking ratings over time was cheating, but after the community's response to that, he's adding it as a much-needed report in the game itself.

Yep. Very encouraging.

Can we get some more publicity for this game? Where else is it eing announced?

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Mike D

I'm not one to throw a lot of pro-Jim stuff out there, usually because I've got my constructive criticism glasses on, but I'm not a fan of seeing Jim focus on the negatives of this thread.

So with that being said, the idea of FOF being a one-man show (essentially) is inspiring in this day and age. So I think we could all use a little bit of expectation management. Not to say the criticism aren't warranted, but most of us, I suspect (myself included), simply have no idea how long it takes to become this proficient at programing and then realize the dream into an actual product.

Once we put it into perspective, Jim has conquered some pretty serious programming ground with regard to pro football (and college football). He's still THE ONLY programmer to deliver a career management simulation of football that somewhat realistically mimics real real football. At least the player develop curves and most stats are pretty spot on. And the GP'ing stuff and logic was getting better with each version...

There is no art team, there is no PR team (sans Ben E Lou), there is no Philharmonic Orchestra doing the opening musical score nor NFL Films doing the opening dialogue (except on RNFL's front page that is), there aren't any PC to MAC conversion teams, there isn't a distribution team, there isn't a game engine design and test team, there isn't a UI design and test team, there isn't boom operator, or an exclusive catering service. It's just.....Jim.

And for Jim to take a life-pause, go through so much real-life drama and then re-appear ready to get back on this beast of a program he's built, is inspiring, to say the least.

I think most of the discussions here are fair, but I wanted to make sure that after all that, we should still say...Jim, your efforts are very much appreciated. Quite simply, your game rocks.

Now, you mentioned that doing annual updates seems like something you don't want to do, but I would be okay with that. I spend my money on all kinds of stupid bullshit, if I could come away with an low-expectations/updated version of FOF each year for my troubles, I'd be better off right now. Even if the updates just fix game engines issues you find, adds rosters, and whatever else comes along that you dream up that you think YOUR game needs...it would be just fine by me.

Best post in this thread by far. By far.

I agree, i would throw money at Jim annually for a minor update or two, some tweaks and fixes. Just keep your shirt on, and we'll be okay

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Originally Posted by Mike D

I'm not one to throw a lot of pro-Jim stuff out there, usually because I've got my constructive criticism glasses on, but I'm not a fan of seeing Jim focus on the negatives of this thread.

So with that being said, the idea of FOF being a one-man show (essentially) is inspiring in this day and age. So I think we could all use a little bit of expectation management. Not to say the criticism aren't warranted, but most of us, I suspect (myself included), simply have no idea how long it takes to become this proficient at programing and then realize the dream into an actual product.

Once we put it into perspective, Jim has conquered some pretty serious programming ground with regard to pro football (and college football). He's still THE ONLY programmer to deliver a career management simulation of football that somewhat realistically mimics real real football. At least the player develop curves and most stats are pretty spot on. And the GP'ing stuff and logic was getting better with each version...

There is no art team, there is no PR team (sans Ben E Lou), there is no Philharmonic Orchestra doing the opening musical score nor NFL Films doing the opening dialogue (except on RNFL's front page that is), there aren't any PC to MAC conversion teams, there isn't a distribution team, there isn't a game engine design and test team, there isn't a UI design and test team, there isn't boom operator, or an exclusive catering service. It's just.....Jim.

And for Jim to take a life-pause, go through so much real-life drama and then re-appear ready to get back on this beast of a program he's built, is inspiring, to say the least.

I think most of the discussions here are fair, but I wanted to make sure that after all that, we should still say...Jim, your efforts are very much appreciated. Quite simply, your game rocks.

Now, you mentioned that doing annual updates seems like something you don't want to do, but I would be okay with that. I spend my money on all kinds of stupid bullshit, if I could come away with an low-expectations/updated version of FOF each year for my troubles, I'd be better off right now. Even if the updates just fix game engines issues you find, adds rosters, and whatever else comes along that you dream up that you think YOUR game needs...it would be just fine by me.

1000% THIS

[BeerCloud]

Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
I'm not one to throw a lot of pro-Jim stuff out there, usually because I've got my constructive criticism glasses on, but I'm not a fan of seeing Jim focus on the negatives of this thread.

So with that being said, the idea of FOF being a one-man show (essentially) is inspiring in this day and age. So I think we could all use a little bit of expectation management. Not to say the criticism aren't warranted, but most of us, I suspect (myself included), simply have no idea how long it takes to become this proficient at programing and then realize the dream into an actual product.

Once we put it into perspective, Jim has conquered some pretty serious programming ground with regard to pro football (and college football). He's still THE ONLY programmer to deliver a career management simulation of football that somewhat realistically mimics real real football. At least the player develop curves and most stats are pretty spot on. And the GP'ing stuff and logic was getting better with each version...

There is no art team, there is no PR team (sans Ben E Lou), there is no Philharmonic Orchestra doing the opening musical score nor NFL Films doing the opening dialogue (except on RNFL's front page that is), there aren't any PC to MAC conversion teams, there isn't a distribution team, there isn't a game engine design and test team, there isn't a UI design and test team, there isn't boom operator, or an exclusive catering service. It's just.....Jim.

And for Jim to take a life-pause, go through so much real-life drama and then re-appear ready to get back on this beast of a program he's built, is inspiring, to say the least.

I think most of the discussions here are fair, but I wanted to make sure that after all that, we should still say...Jim, your efforts are very much appreciated. Quite simply, your game rocks.

Now, you mentioned that doing annual updates seems like something you don't want to do, but I would be okay with that. I spend my money on all kinds of stupid bullshit, if I could come away with an low-expectations/updated version of FOF each year for my troubles, I'd be better off right now. Even if the updates just fix game engines issues you find, adds rosters, and whatever else comes along that you dream up that you think YOUR game needs...it would be just fine by me.

+++
Jim,
This is a pretty kool community you gave birth to years ago.

If you really enjoy what your doing, it feels like play.
Its only work if you dont enjoy what your doing.
Play on Jim, Play on.....

[azjoe_02]

Originally Posted by Mike D

I'm not one to throw a lot of pro-Jim stuff out there, usually because I've got my constructive criticism glasses on, but I'm not a fan of seeing Jim focus on the negatives of this thread.

So with that being said, the idea of FOF being a one-man show (essentially) is inspiring in this day and age. So I think we could all use a little bit of expectation management. Not to say the criticism aren't warranted, but most of us, I suspect (myself included), simply have no idea how long it takes to become this proficient at programing and then realize the dream into an actual product.

Once we put it into perspective, Jim has conquered some pretty serious programming ground with regard to pro football (and college football). He's still THE ONLY programmer to deliver a career management simulation of football that somewhat realistically mimics real real football. At least the player develop curves and most stats are pretty spot on. And the GP'ing stuff and logic was getting better with each version...

There is no art team, there is no PR team (sans Ben E Lou), there is no Philharmonic Orchestra doing the opening musical score nor NFL Films doing the opening dialogue (except on RNFL's front page that is), there aren't any PC to MAC conversion teams, there isn't a distribution team, there isn't a game engine design and test team, there isn't a UI design and test team, there isn't boom operator, or an exclusive catering service. It's just.....Jim.

And for Jim to take a life-pause, go through so much real-life drama and then re-appear ready to get back on this beast of a program he's built, is inspiring, to say the least.

I think most of the discussions here are fair, but I wanted to make sure that after all that, we should still say...Jim, your efforts are very much appreciated. Quite simply, your game rocks.

Now, you mentioned that doing annual updates seems like something you don't want to do, but I would be okay with that. I spend my money on all kinds of stupid bullshit, if I could come away with an low-expectations/updated version of FOF each year for my troubles, I'd be better off right now. Even if the updates just fix game engines issues you find, adds rosters, and whatever else comes along that you dream up that you think YOUR game needs...it would be just fine by me.

[Danny]

Just to add to my original post. I was disappointed with the list initially and I still would love a sim that has a better graphical representation, expansion, historical replay and a few other things. That said, I will still probably purchase the new FOF if initial feedback is good and the AI improvements are there. It is really too bad though that there is no game that does what something like OOTP does with historical replay for football. That would be so awesome.

[BucDawg40]

Originally Posted by Mike D

I'm not one to throw a lot of pro-Jim stuff out there, usually because I've got my constructive criticism glasses on, but I'm not a fan of seeing Jim focus on the negatives of this thread.

So with that being said, the idea of FOF being a one-man show (essentially) is inspiring in this day and age. So I think we could all use a little bit of expectation management. Not to say the criticism aren't warranted, but most of us, I suspect (myself included), simply have no idea how long it takes to become this proficient at programing and then realize the dream into an actual product.

Once we put it into perspective, Jim has conquered some pretty serious programming ground with regard to pro football (and college football). He's still THE ONLY programmer to deliver a career management simulation of football that somewhat realistically mimics real real football. At least the player develop curves and most stats are pretty spot on. And the GP'ing stuff and logic was getting better with each version...

There is no art team, there is no PR team (sans Ben E Lou), there is no Philharmonic Orchestra doing the opening musical score nor NFL Films doing the opening dialogue (except on RNFL's front page that is), there aren't any PC to MAC conversion teams, there isn't a distribution team, there isn't a game engine design and test team, there isn't a UI design and test team, there isn't boom operator, or an exclusive catering service. It's just.....Jim.

And for Jim to take a life-pause, go through so much real-life drama and then re-appear ready to get back on this beast of a program he's built, is inspiring, to say the least.

I think most of the discussions here are fair, but I wanted to make sure that after all that, we should still say...Jim, your efforts are very much appreciated. Quite simply, your game rocks.

Now, you mentioned that doing annual updates seems like something you don't want to do, but I would be okay with that. I spend my money on all kinds of stupid bullshit, if I could come away with an low-expectations/updated version of FOF each year for my troubles, I'd be better off right now. Even if the updates just fix game engines issues you find, adds rosters, and whatever else comes along that you dream up that you think YOUR game needs...it would be just fine by me.

Very well said.

[MrOpinion]

Given that I have owned every version of OOTP since OOTP 4 (that's 12 editions), the lack of customization and quality HTML reports completely kills it for me.

Every league that I play is completely fictional, because I don't find the draw in playing a 'real world replay'. And the fact the the MP isn't as fleshed out as I'd like it to be means I'll probably end up sticking with FOF2K7. It does enough for what I need out of it it.

[Zee]

I'm happy to see that an improved the AI is a high priority. I stopped playing single player because it was just too easy. I hope the Coaching changes make it possible to improve your coaching staff, even if your franchise isn't one of the top money makers. It is currently hard to improve team finances and game attendance, if your team isn't winning... (and hard to win without a top coach).

What I was hoping to see, however, was an expansion on game planning that included selecting specific plays, rather than just formations. I was also hopeful that something would be said about reducing the random variability of game outcomes, and bring the results back closer to the player abilities. I'm not a great game planner, and need to rely on my GM skills to select better players.

[Gallifrey]

Originally Posted by Mike D

I'm not one to throw a lot of pro-Jim stuff out there, usually because I've got my constructive criticism glasses on, but I'm not a fan of seeing Jim focus on the negatives of this thread.

So with that being said, the idea of FOF being a one-man show (essentially) is inspiring in this day and age. So I think we could all use a little bit of expectation management. Not to say the criticism aren't warranted, but most of us, I suspect (myself included), simply have no idea how long it takes to become this proficient at programing and then realize the dream into an actual product.

Once we put it into perspective, Jim has conquered some pretty serious programming ground with regard to pro football (and college football). He's still THE ONLY programmer to deliver a career management simulation of football that somewhat realistically mimics real real football. At least the player develop curves and most stats are pretty spot on. And the GP'ing stuff and logic was getting better with each version...

There is no art team, there is no PR team (sans Ben E Lou), there is no Philharmonic Orchestra doing the opening musical score nor NFL Films doing the opening dialogue (except on RNFL's front page that is), there aren't any PC to MAC conversion teams, there isn't a distribution team, there isn't a game engine design and test team, there isn't a UI design and test team, there isn't boom operator, or an exclusive catering service. It's just.....Jim.

And for Jim to take a life-pause, go through so much real-life drama and then re-appear ready to get back on this beast of a program he's built, is inspiring, to say the least.

I think most of the discussions here are fair, but I wanted to make sure that after all that, we should still say...Jim, your efforts are very much appreciated. Quite simply, your game rocks.

Now, you mentioned that doing annual updates seems like something you don't want to do, but I would be okay with that. I spend my money on all kinds of stupid bullshit, if I could come away with an low-expectations/updated version of FOF each year for my troubles, I'd be better off right now. Even if the updates just fix game engines issues you find, adds rosters, and whatever else comes along that you dream up that you think YOUR game needs...it would be just fine by me.

Says it all, well done.

[fortheglory]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

It's the standard for sports sims. Many a posters have been converted to soccer fans based on the game

I have always thought this, but upon further examination, I feel the AI roster building in FM is so weak, that the game really doesn't hold a candle to OOTP or FOF in many regards. There are so many good young free agents that AI teams never sign, that it really leaves a lot to be desired. I think eventually FM becomes a very simple game as far as roster building is concerned.

[Ben E Lou]

For MP, one of the more compelling angles in a new game coming out just 1-2 seasons from now for most leagues is the draft and valuing players. Do we see the more savvy players adjusting draft values now in anticipation of likely engine changes, or do folks just plow ahead with their current ways of thinking for a while?

[Icy]

Mixed feelings, in one hand i'm very happy about Jim getting back at it, excited about the new AI but besides that... a bit disappointed.

The customization part, i won't really miss it, maybe i'm too used to FM lack of customization, but i want to play the real NFL in a football game and the real MLB or NBA in baseball or basketball sims. I have tried to create fictional universes in OOTP, expended tons of time on custom unis, the perfect team names and alignment, etc and end losing interest an not able to feel immersed.

The UI part, it's already discussed every year for a while, and nobody changes it's opinion including Jim. As for it being expensive... well it depends... when i was heavily into modding games for fun, i did the designs for Wolverine studios games like Draft Day Sports Basketball, Draft Day Sports College Basketball, Music Wars and a Puresim version that never saw the light, as well as some screens mockups/ideas for OOTP like the deep chart/lineups one that was finally adopted, i don't think they were that bad for a non professional designer, and my "cost" per game was like a weekend at a hotel with my family, as i did it for fun and to learn more about design tricks, etc when i was into that.

If you are looking at professional UI designers with a big name, then yes, it's expensive, but if you recruit the right student, or specially game modder or fans, you will get it for almost nothing. There are plenty of game mods with same or even better graphics than professionally designed games, heck even some of the FM skins made by fans are way better than the shipped one, and they do it just for fun or personal ego of having their name printed in the game or other fans saying "thanks, you rock!"

I think Jim is too close minded about hiring others or just having anybody else putting it's hand over his projects in general (maybe i'm wrong and just a feeling I have based in his comments after years here or maybe it was because his bad experience at EA some years ago) and not aware of what is going on right now in the games industry, see iphone/android games/apps by indie developers with zero money taking over big companies like EA that is into big problems now in the mobile games biz because they are too big and too rigid in that fast changing world. The one man show approach is no longer an excuse but an advantage in some cases if you play it well.

Besides the AI improvements, one of the things i would have really liked is personalities in coaches/gm's, so every coach would have their preferred system, and every team would feel different, both on and off the field, instead of all them analyzing stats and acting exactly the same "perfect" and robotized way.

The scouts disappearing the coaches draft looks more of a way to make things simpler for MP at the sacrifice of realism and SP experience.

Overall i see this as a base and code cleaning to be able to release better games in the future, and maybe too influenced by some old hardcore players like Ben and others (no offense for name calling i hope, not saying anything bad) that share same vision about FOF and text sims in general than Jim, and that are more into studding how the game engine works at the cost of immersion, that want total stats accuracy without any "distraction" around it, and also about the competitive MP environment than about roleplaying being a coach/gm in SP that other text sim fans prefer (like me, that is why i always come back to FM). That is why i never buy text sims that are supper accurate match replaying machines but that have no career mode. I don't see those as "games".

I love stats accuracy as much as every sports nut, but once that side is covered, I want to feel i'm a coach/gm, and realism in a text sim for me includes also feeling and dealing with part of the stuff that a real coach/gm does, not only the stats part.

Imho the developer that found a nice mix for his resources as he is also an one man show (besides GDS publishing) is HeavyReign with his FBCB and FBB games.

Anyway i was focusing too much on the negatives, and we have not seen anything yet, as i said, i'm happy to see a top game developer back at doing what he does great, hope this will work well for him and we will have new versions every year and even other games like tcy 2 or even a game that integrates both in one for a full football universe.

[Logan]

Well said Icy.

[fortheglory]

Originally Posted by Icy

Mixed feelings, in one hand i'm very happy about Jim getting back at it, excited about the new AI but besides that... a bit disappointed.

The customization part, i won't really miss it, maybe i'm too used to FM lack of customization, but i want to play the real NFL in a football game and the real MLB or NBA in baseball or basketball sims. I have tried to create fictional universes in OOTP, expended tons of time on custom unis, the perfect team names and alignment, etc and end losing interest an not able to feel immersed.

The UI part, it's already discussed every year for a while, and nobody changes it's opinion including Jim. As for it being expensive... well it depends... when i was heavily into modding games for fun, i did the designs for Wolverine studios games like Draft Day Sports Basketball, Draft Day Sports College Basketball, Music Wars and a Puresim version that never saw the light, as well as some screens mockups/ideas for OOTP like the deep chart/lineups one that was finally adopted, i don't think they were that bad for a non professional designer, and my "cost" per game was like a weekend at a hotel with my family, as i did it for fun and to learn more about design tricks, etc when i was into that.

If you are looking at professional UI designers with a big name, then yes, it's expensive, but if you recruit the right student, or specially game modder or fans, you will get it for almost nothing. There are plenty of game mods with same or even better graphics than professionally designed games, heck even some of the FM skins made by fans are way better than the shipped one, and they do it just for fun or personal ego of having their name printed in the game or other fans saying "thanks, you rock!"

I think Jim is too close minded about hiring others or just having anybody else putting it's hand over his projects in general (maybe i'm wrong and just a feeling I have based in his comments after years here or maybe it was because his bad experience at EA some years ago) and not aware of what is going on right now in the games industry, see iphone/android games/apps by indie developers with zero money taking over big companies like EA that is into big problems now in the mobile games biz because they are too big and too rigid in that fast changing world. The one man show approach is no longer an excuse but an advantage in some cases if you play it well.

Besides the AI improvements, one of the things i would have really liked is personalities in coaches/gm's, so every coach would have their preferred system, and every team would feel different, both on and off the field, instead of all them analyzing stats and acting exactly the same "perfect" and robotized way.

The scouts disappearing the coaches draft looks more of a way to make things simpler for MP at the sacrifice of realism and SP experience.

Overall i see this as a base and code cleaning to be able to release better games in the future, and maybe too influenced by some old hardcore players like Ben and others (no offense for name calling i hope, not saying anything bad) that share same vision about FOF and text sims in general than Jim, and that are more into studding how the game engine works at the cost of immersion, that want total stats accuracy without any "distraction" around it, and also about the competitive MP environment than about roleplaying being a coach/gm in SP that other text sim fans prefer (like me, that is why i always come back to FM). That is why i never buy text sims that are supper accurate match replaying machines but that have no career mode. I don't see those as "games".

I love stats accuracy as much as every sports nut, but once that side is covered, I want to feel i'm a coach/gm, and realism in a text sim for me includes also feeling and dealing with part of the stuff that a real coach/gm does, not only the stats part.

Imho the developer that found a nice mix for his resources as he is also an one man show (besides GDS publishing) is HeavyReign with his FBCB and FBB games.

Anyway i was focusing too much on the negatives, and we have not seen anything yet, as i said, i'm happy to see a top game developer back at doing what he does great, hope this will work well for him and we will have new versions every year and even other games like tcy 2 or even a game that integrates both in one for a full football universe.

This is exactly how I feel.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Icy

Overall i see this as a base and code cleaning to be able to release better games in the future, and maybe too influenced by some old hardcore players like Ben and others (no offense for name calling i hope, not saying anything bad) that share same vision about FOF and text sims in general than Jim, and that are more into studding how the game engine works at the cost of immersion, that want total stats accuracy without any "distraction" around it, and also about the competitive MP environment than about roleplaying being a coach/gm in SP that other text sim fans prefer (like me, that is why i always comeback to FM).

I don't see anything on the changes list that talks about stats accuracy, and fwiw, I'm more into SP than MP if the AI is good enough. And I'm (obviously) very big into the reporting side and want coach/GM features in SP as well. I know it wasn't intended to be malicious or anything, but it's worth saying that your comments are quite inaccurate. To be clear, I don't necessarily *want* to play FOF the way I play it when I go all-out in a MP league. However, I'm far more interested in winning than in being true to a particular style of play. It's what works. It's the way FOF is designed. I play entirely differently in SP.

The truth of the matter is that I (along with several other "hardcore FOF veteran" types, I suspect) would *greatly* prefer that Jim go more the HeavyReign route. I enjoy FOF, so I *want* him to have a prettier interface that's still functional like FBCB2. Clearly if he does, it'll attract some dummies who wouldn't enjoy FOF but will throw $35 at Jim on an impulse purchase, play the game for two weeks or less, then never play it again. I'm all for him getting some money from those types to help make sure that FOF sticks around.

That said, I think the difference is that I--and quite a few others--have accepted the reality of what sort of game Jim is going to create, and aren't expecting anything else. I mean, we're talking 15 years now and running and JG hasn't really changed his stance on most of the issues about which people are still banging their heads against walls. Definition of insanity and all that...

There's far less disappointment when you accept Jim and FOF for what they are. I believe I said it earlier in this thread, but if you take a step back and look at the history, it's frankly some combination of comical/sad/shocking that people had any level of hope/expectation--enough to be disappointed when it didn't happen--of some of the stuff people seem to be very disappointed about.

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and let's think about it, fellas. I'm fairly certain that if JG ever gets a partnership with SI or even one of the smaller houses like a GreyDog or Wolverine, it'll be a major announcement with press releases and all that. The #1 tipoff for me that this was still solo Jim was that he was doing a Q&A with some dolt like me in IRC to publicize the new game.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

He did a kickstarter for the board game (which I bought by the way, shame on the rest of you )

He should do a kickstarter for the computer game to help with money and resources. I think he would be pleasantly surprised by the amount of money he would get that would go towards improving the game.

I know he doesn't necessarily need the extra money to complete the game. But it couldn't hurt and maybe he can put in a condition if we reach a certain amount of money on the campaign he will hire graphic designer.

However, I realize that this is his baby and he may not want to hire anyone even with the extra money and I certainly respect and admire him for that.

Either way Jim, I am buying the game and am looking forward to it greatly.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

He should do a kickstarter for the computer game to help with money and resources. I think he would be pleasantly surprised by the amount of money he would get that would go towards improving the game.

I know he doesn't necessarily need the extra money to complete the game. But it couldn't hurt and maybe he can put in a condition if we reach a certain amount of money on the campaign he will hire graphic designer.

Makes sense.

[Abe Sargent]

Right, and an important point there. This is JIM's game. It's not our game, or my game. It's his. He has a vision, and no matter what is added or pulled, we all know it's going to be better than 2k7. I'll be sad to see interviews go, I liked them, but it's Jim's game, and it will be better to have the changes he's made than to see them leave. He will always leave the game better than the previous iteration.

It's Jim's game. Am Im going to play the hell out of it.

[PhinsFan]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

For MP, one of the more compelling angles in a new game coming out just 1-2 seasons from now for most leagues is the draft and valuing players. Do we see the more savvy players adjusting draft values now in anticipation of likely engine changes, or do folks just plow ahead with their current ways of thinking for a while?

That is an interesting thought for sure. I may be missing some of the new features/reports or can't vision them but I am wondering how we (as MP players) will be evaluating players and the game for that matter.

Extensive use of 3rd party tools makes me wonder?
1. will those tools be useless in the new game?
2. if those tools are useless will there be enough tools in-game.
example scout another teams play calling
evaluate your own play calling
evaluate drafts and existing players.

If those tools can't be used any longer that will sort of set the balance in leagues for awhile I would think, just cause everyone will be learning a new game.

[aston217]

Uh, the tools are freely available to everyone, extremely helpful, and do no part in unbalancing leagues.