12-15-2011, 12:13 PM | #751 | |
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I don't know how to dispute that although I don't recall him ever changing myself. That said, you're telling me a half-season suspension couldn't have accomplished the same thing? I just don't see why people feel that fighting is somehow this be-all/end-all of deterrents. Shouldn't vigilante justice apply to the rest of life if this is so effective? Why has society said that the deterrent for assaulting someone on the street is jail time, but the deterrent for assaulting someone on the ice rink is a retaliatory assault? The bottom line is you can change human behavior in many ways. Does beating someone up work sometimes? Sure. But there are other methods, and I don't get why hockey can't grow up and use them. Especially when the argument seems to always be "well it worked great 40 years ago!". Well guess what, it's not 1970 anymore, get out of the past.
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12-15-2011, 12:17 PM | #752 | |
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Oh I totally agree, diagnosis and attention are probably the biggest reason that this has become a sudden epidemic. That said, we aren't going to just stick our heads back in the sand, so we need to look at ways to fix it.
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12-15-2011, 12:32 PM | #753 | |||
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I am pretty much on the fence in regards to fighting in the NHL. In the past, when I was much younger (back when the NJ Devils were relevant, Zach Parise was just a twinkle in his mama's eye, and college football didn't need a system to determine which teams were good), I believed that fighting was a great part of the game. I am not so sure about that anymore. I totally get your argument about why other sports don't allow it, and the more I thought about this the more I became confused as to why the NHL has fighting and no other leagues allow it (outside of rugby and European soccer). Claude Lemieux was a complete piece of shit who played to injure other players, and finally was called out on it when McCarty rearranged his face. With that being said, a season-long ban for his actions probably would have resulted in the same thing: no more Lemieux.
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12-15-2011, 12:55 PM | #754 | |
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You could also argue that the actual act of having his face rearranged may not have changed him anymore than all the other after-effects of that cheapshot. I'll use a really lame and overly long personal example to try to explain: Years ago I played in a very competitive floor hockey league. My team was terrible, and most teams stomped all over us every game. However one other team was just as bad (if not a little worse) than us, and that team became our heated rival. Because the league was pretty small, we played each other a few times throughout the season, and the games got progressively more chippy. In one of the last games I remember playing, my main nemesis on the other team high-sticked me in the face not once, but twice in the same shift. I complained to the ref after the second one, because he was standing right there and called nothing yet again, and he just shrugged. So I turned around, boiling with anger, and followed my nemesis into the corner at full speed. He had his back to me, and with him about 3 feet from the boards I caught him and put everything I had into a vicious push from behind. The guy went face-first into the boards, and even as he was flying towards them I knew I had done something super, super bad. Thankfully for everyone involved he wasn't seriously hurt, and he got up looking for a fight. Naturally I was still pretty hot and we got into it a bit before getting separated. But even then, my actions were pretty half-assed; I felt absolutely awful for what I'd done, and was thanking God I hadn't just put the guy in a hospital bed over a game of floor hockey. From that day on, I have never in my life hit someone from behind in any type of hockey. I think about it whenever I get too upset, or am tempted to get extra 'edgy' as I play. It totally changed how I react in the game, and it had nothing to do with the mini-scrum that followed, or even if no one had separated us and the guy had beaten my into the floor. I simply realised how bad it could have gone and knew I never wanted to have that feeling again. So back to Lemieux. I think a case could be made that the entire Draper incident simply caused him to 'see the light', or otherwise wake up to the potential consequences of his actions. Maybe he realised he went too far, and altered his game in the future because of it. We can't really know unless he were to say one way or the other, but i think that scenario is just as plausible as him becoming less chippy simply because he didn't want to get his face rearranged again.
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12-15-2011, 01:40 PM | #755 | |
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I'm on the fence about fighting...I hate the staged crap and the "you just rocked my teammate with a clean hit but I didn't like it" stuff but when two guys have been battling all game decide they've had enough of each other, well, I suppose I'm not as bothered by something like that. If the last example were gone from the game, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, but first two certainly would make things more enjoyable. But, at the same time, there are guys who simply don't give a shit about others on the ice and are going to do what they are going to do regardless of consequences on or off the ice. Suspensions and penalties be damned for a guy like Tootoo who still has no problem running over (and jumping at) anybody on the ice but the moment he gets tapped on the shoulder he plays dead while flinging his gear all over the ice like he's taking a nap at a yard sale. Suspensions and fines have done nothing to deter this kid so maybe he needs to get the message in some other fashion...no? And while we're talking about real life consequences, what do you suppose would happen when I call the cops about the two teenage punks who beat the shit out of my inflatable Santa on my front lawn the other night? I'll tell you, nothing. For one, the punks know the cops aren't going to send out anybody in a timely fashion so they have plenty of time to destroy a few more Santas on their way to 7-11 to grab a Slurpee for their leisurely walk home. And secondly, even if they were caught in the act they know nothing is going to come of it because the cops have more important crap to deal with and what they're doing isn't really hurting anybody so it's small peanuts. I didn't do that shit when I was a kid because I was scared of what would happen if I were to get caught...either by the house I vandalized or by my dad when he found out. I didn't even worry or think about what the cops would have done. But that isn't the way kids think today. |
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12-15-2011, 01:54 PM | #756 | |
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This is precisely why I quit playing "organized" men's hockey 15 years ago...some guys take the shit WAY too seriously and have no respect for the other guys on the ice...ref's included. |
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12-15-2011, 03:22 PM | #757 | ||
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Umm ... Quote:
... I don't think it would have been over a game of floor hockey, it would have been for two high-sticks to the face. There's a pretty good distinction there afaic, the former would be if you took the guy out because already had a hat trick & it it was only halfway through the first period. YMMV, but I don't see those as the same thing at all honestly.
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12-15-2011, 04:14 PM | #758 | |||
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excellent
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12-15-2011, 04:17 PM | #759 | |
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Yes. We're talking about a quick emotional reaction and a quick punishment. You know the enforcer will not miss something that is even close to questionable. You don't know what the league will miss and the players will try to push the envelope to see what they can get away with. When the players do the policing they will come after you for a clean but borderline hit too, as you know that is how it works. That will have more of an affect on a player than any new rule will. Players that are already looking to make those hits will be thinking that they won't get caught. With a new rule you get punishment, with player policing you get prevention. With the players policing you will think twice about any hard hit on their star player, even if it could be legal. |
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12-15-2011, 04:20 PM | #760 | |||
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This got me thinking (in relation to what I posted earlier). For a guy like Suh or Harrison in the NFL, what would happen if players were allowed to "police" the game like the NHL does? Instead of Suh stomping on that guy's head and being thrown out, what if a 300lb O-lineman threw him to the ground and stomped on him in return? The NFL would be much more interesting at least.
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12-15-2011, 04:59 PM | #761 | ||
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Bolded is probably the worst part of the game. I understand it -- players are reacting in a half second to what it appears to them. If Crosby hits the ice, the assumption is going to be it was dirty, not matter how clean it was. We saw it with Asham - Beagle early on this year. Asham felt Beagle crossed the line with one of his team's stars (Letang), Beagle obliged, and a couple seconds later was picking teeth out of his mouth. Was Beagle over the line-- not really, Letang was giving it to him as well. But when Letangs helmet was nearly knocked off, Asham perceived it to be over the line. Quote:
I agree to a point...the league would have to totally change how it doles out suspensions. And I don't have very much faith in that. I do not understand though the idea that these things didn't occur before. Clarke, Howe, Hunter and Messier were dirty. All before the instigator. They didn't refrain from being dirty out of fear of retaliation. If they felt they gained an advantage by playing the way they did, they kept doing it. Cooke, Tootoo, Kaleta, Ott etc do the same today-- it gives their team an edge. If the league called everything, and their antics continually left their teams SH, they'd either stop of be out of a job.
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12-15-2011, 05:39 PM | #762 |
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Blues vs Rangers tonight, can't wait!
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12-15-2011, 05:42 PM | #763 |
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12-15-2011, 06:51 PM | #764 |
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Pronger is done for the year.
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12-15-2011, 07:27 PM | #765 |
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I am not surprised by this in the least. Get well soon, Capt. Elbows.
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12-15-2011, 08:09 PM | #766 |
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Yikes.
Something I've always wondered. Take a look at Pronger's helmet: http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos...5U-x-large.jpg How secure are these? I mean, look at the chinstrap. And that's the norm. It seems like the equipment, or at least the fitting of it, could be much better.
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12-15-2011, 09:14 PM | #767 | |
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Just flipped over to NHL network and heard this. Is there a hit this related to? I'm assuming not the stick to the eye...but what the hell?
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12-15-2011, 09:17 PM | #768 | |
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He got smoked into the boards after he came back in the Phoenix game. Went face first into the glass. I wouldn't be surprised if this was related to the stick in the eye. |
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12-16-2011, 07:33 AM | #769 |
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The timing just seems...odd.
Crosby suffered his in January. David Perron was in November. Neither were ruled out, just out indefinitely, and then missed the remainder of the season. Just confused how it's already determined he'll be out. And if it is that severe that they can determine, is this the end for him?
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12-16-2011, 10:12 AM | #770 | |
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First of all, Clarke, Howe, Hunter and Messier could play hockey and were obviously very good at it. Secondly, they played the way they did and backed it up. They took their lumps but they definitely dolled out more than they took because they were willing to back it up when the time came. |
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12-16-2011, 10:15 AM | #771 | |
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The doctors that examined him reccommended that he be shut down for the year. As an organ-EYE-zation you can't really ignore what the doctors say, put him out on the ice (even if he says he feels better) and risk him getting hurt. Pronger has a little more wear and tear on his body and brain than someone like Crosby does. It may be the end for him. We don't know. |
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12-16-2011, 10:54 AM | #772 | |
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So the fighting did not stop the dirty play, because they were willing to fight? This completely contradicts the argument that fights were necessary to self-police the game.
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12-16-2011, 11:36 AM | #773 |
This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off.
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12-16-2011, 11:41 AM | #774 | |||
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Milbury is a douche. I hope that 12 year old kicked his ass.
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12-16-2011, 11:41 AM | #775 | |
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The shoe is on the other hand now!
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12-16-2011, 11:42 AM | #776 | |
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Did he throw a skate at him? |
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12-16-2011, 11:56 AM | #777 |
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Interesting piece from Ken Dryden on Bettmann, concussions and science at Grantland: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...aiting-science
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12-16-2011, 12:26 PM | #778 | |
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That's pretty much my point. It existed in the time of "old time hockey", and didn't deter anyone from playing dirty. The argument that if the instigator was rescinded the Cookes and Tootoos of the world would go away just doesn't make sense. The only way to completely rid the game of them is the league itself punsihing the players/teams with suspensions. If the rule existed that said offense 1 was 40 games and offense 2 was a full 82, shit would stop. This is the only acceptable response!
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12-16-2011, 12:30 PM | #779 |
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Oh, Chrissy. Great talent, huge physical presence, and still played cheap. One of my favorites to root against.
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12-16-2011, 12:43 PM | #780 | |||
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Two thoughts here. First of all, if the league went to a permanent 4 on 4 format (not just during OT), there would be a lot more open space on the ice and we would probably not see nearly as many injuries, especially to the head. This would also ensure that coaches play their best players (nobody wants their 4th line scrub on the ice in a 4 on 4 situation do they?). Second, fining/suspending the team/coach would do a lot more in deterring future infractions, outside of meaningful discipline to the player (I like your 40/82 game suspension idea above). I would take it a step further and argue that the 1st offense for a head infraction is a 1-year ban, second offense if lifetime ban. A good example of where this should have been implemented is the Todd Bertuzzi incident. I happen to like the guy and I don't think he intended to injure/end Moore's career (FWIW, Moore was a douchebag in his own right, often taking cheap shots at Markus Naslund), but the fact remains that Bertuzzi ended his playing career. That was an instance where it could be argued that an eye-for-an-eye approach would be fitting.
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12-16-2011, 12:58 PM | #781 | |
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I'll disagree here, even though I know it's not the main point of discussion. When you do something outside of gameplay, like this or McSorley on Brashear, what else can you argue the intention are? I cheer for a team that at different points employed Matt Cooke and Ulf Sammuelsson. Those guys are/were dirty, but within gameplay. If anything, they avoid contact after the whistle.
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12-16-2011, 01:09 PM | #782 | |||
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I felt this way initially as well, but I saw a lot of interviews with Bertuzzi over the years and his manner never changed; he felt awful for what happened. He did what a lot of players do in tense moments during a sporting event, he overreacted and went after another player and the repercussions were much worse than he ever could have imagined. Just my opinion of course.
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12-16-2011, 01:12 PM | #783 | |||
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This is where we part ways. Matt Cooke has consistently proven that he is a piece of shit with no regard for other players. Bertuzzi made one mistake which unfortunately labeled him as a dirty player. Before the Steve Moore incident, he had a reputation as a tough, hard nosed player you hated to play against. Cooke just plays dirty and his talent is questionable, something you couldn't say about Bertuzzi regardless of how you feel about him.
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12-16-2011, 01:15 PM | #784 |
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niedermayer's jersey gets retired in jersey tonight. always a good time. that dude deserves it.
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12-16-2011, 01:18 PM | #785 | |
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Agree 100%.
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12-16-2011, 01:26 PM | #786 | |||
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I hated him because of who he played for (especially NJ), but it was awesome watching he and Lidstrom battling for the Norris.
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12-16-2011, 01:58 PM | #787 | |
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How many guys had their way with Gretzky, Lemieux, Bossy, etc...in the "old time hockey" days? The "fear" of having a guy like Messier, who isn't really an enforcer, mess your face up because he can and doesn't give a shit what you or your "tough guy" thinks about it is why you didn't see those guys get targeted very often. Call it "respect" or "intimidation", regardless, it worked. So, either the players need to regain that respect or need to realize "real" consequences are the alternative for boneheaded plays. Is telling Matt Cooke to stay at home and play Xbox for half the season while still collecting half of his $2 mil paycheck really a deterrent for flying elbows? Like my example before about the punks who vandalized my Santa...until there is "real" consequences they aren't going to care about how many Santas they destroy. Obviously a cop talking to them about being smarter and not doing that shit any more isn't going to cut it. But if you were to put those punks inside an inflatable Santa and the owners of the destroyed Santas were told they get one free kick then maybe, just maybe, these punks wouldn't be roaming the neighbourhood looking for shit to bust up. |
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12-16-2011, 02:03 PM | #788 | |
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Except that in the example above, if the guy doesn't care about getting his face messed up, how is this a deterrent? How far back are we going, because I still remember Scott Stevens knocking Ron Francis (and basically the Hurricanes because of it) out of the playoffs before they really started cracking down on enforcers over the last few years.
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12-16-2011, 02:45 PM | #789 | |
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How do we know if a guy like Tootoo, Cooke, or Avery is bothered by getting his face filled in when they are protected like the Pope after one of their "hit 'n' run" jobs? About Stevens...are you really putting him and that hit into the same category as Tootoo, Cooke, and Avery? Seriously? That hit wasn't illegal until last season so we're talking about a clean hit, at the time, where Stevens was ready to drop the mitts with anybody who took exception. He's the exact opposite of the douches we're trying to eliminate from hockey today...in fact, I'd love to see him in his prime out there on a shift against Avery. Don't get me wrong, fighting could be gone from the game tomorrow and I'd probably enjoy the game just as much, if not better. But until ALL the players respect each other enough not to play like idiots then there has to be "real" consequences for those idiots. I'm sorry, but I don't think it's suspensions or fines because the money these guys make still doesn't justify getting a "real" job versus only getting half of a paycheck and only playing half the season when they could be suckers like you and I and working 40 hours a week making peanuts. |
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12-16-2011, 02:47 PM | #790 | |
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I can understand people hating Cooke, but to question his value is a little silly. No, he's not a 40 goal scorer like Bertuzzi, but he scores 15 goals, 30 points, hits everything (sometimes illegally) and is arguably the top PK guy (some will say Staal is) on a team that finished #1 in that category last year.
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12-16-2011, 02:59 PM | #791 | |||
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Would you still defend him if he didn't play for your team?
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12-17-2011, 10:04 AM | #792 | |
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What if when a guy was suspended he still counted against a team's cap, or maybe even their roster limit, and they still had to pay his salary (only it went to a players pension fund or charity or something)? How many teams would sign a repeat offender knowing they'd be on the hook for all that if he offends yet again? I think it is totally possible to find a mix of punishments at both the player and organizational level to keep things mostly in order without the need for institutionalized fighting in the game.
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12-17-2011, 01:00 PM | #793 |
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Cooter takes a slap shot to the head to end an ugly period for the Flyers. I couldn't care about losing the game after that happened.
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12-17-2011, 01:15 PM | #794 |
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Turris to the Sents for Rundblad and a 2nd .. what is Ottawa doing?
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12-17-2011, 02:43 PM | #795 | |
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I like the idea bolded. |
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12-17-2011, 04:59 PM | #796 |
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Paul Martin out tonight for Pens vs Sabres.
They will dress their 2 (Orpik), 5 (Niskanen), 6 (Engelland), 10 (Depres), 11 (Picard) and 12 (Carl Sneep making his NHL debut). Letang, Michalek and #9 Robert Bortuzzo out with concussions. #7 Ben Lovejoy knee injury, #8 Brian Strait broken elbow. They only have 2 more defenseman on two way deals who can be recalled if needed.
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12-17-2011, 05:01 PM | #797 | |
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But yeah...I always thought Runblad was pretty highly thought of, and Turris, well, isn't anymore.
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12-17-2011, 06:11 PM | #798 |
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Jets fans giving Selanne an incredible ovation... definitely my second favorite NHL team
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12-17-2011, 06:30 PM | #799 | |
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Nevermind...nothing to see here. Miller chased after giving up 3 before 10:00 mark.
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12-17-2011, 09:47 PM | #800 |
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Crazy ending to Rangers - Coyotes.
Brad Richards scores with 0.1 seconds on what can only be described as "Oh shit 2 seconds left, better flip this, backwards, towards the net to get it near the goal".
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