Brick by Brick: A RL Programming Dynasty, Take 2

[Cap Ologist]

Reposting over here to help keep ideas flowing logically.

This is a rough outline of how I want to introduce each part of the game. I'm moving combat towards the end, since it's built on every other skill in the game. Combat will always be the main focus of the game, but will be better understood within the confines of the rest of the game.

1. The character
2. The setting
3. Primary skills
4. Secondary skills
5. Possible skills
6. Kingdoms
7. Combats
8. Armies


I started playing online RPGs in January of 2005. My first RPG was Omerta, a grueling and addicting mafia game that seemed at times more like a job than a diversion. Players raced against each to gain higher ranks by committing crimes and smuggling booze and drugs.

The Omerta world was controlled by powerful families that were essential to survival in the game. Alignment with the right family could mean the difference between becoming a godfather or a never-was. Loyalty to the family was essential.

The double-edged sword of Omerta was how death was handled. When you died, you would have to restart completely. All ranks you had gained were wiped out. This led to the feverish desire to rank harder to make yourself harder to kill, because there were no safe zones to play in. However, it also meant that the desire to cheat would rear its ugly head frequently.

The second game I played was Syrnia. Syrnia was a walk in the park compared to Omerta. Instead of having to constantly monitor the game, you had to enter a code every 15-20 minutes. Death in Syrnia was handled quite differently than Omerta. When you died, you only lost the possessions that you were carrying at the time. There was no restarting from scratch, and there were two ways of dying. One, by attacking a NPC monster, the other by PvP. However, the PvP area was typically deserted and never emphasized enough in the game. Syrnians could band together to form clans, but for the most part, the typical Syrnian is content to play in a chatroom with a timer, and exhibits little ability to collectively plan and work together.

My third game I've played extensively is Movoda. Movoda is very similar to Syrnia, but with a few differences. Movoda has guilds which are designed similarly to the clans in Syrnia. However, the designer has tried to design a game where players are 'forced' to work together. Guilds can raid and war against each other, steal goods and damage buildings. However, a large majority of Movodans came from Syrnia, and so what could be a brilliant and strategic game is in danger of being ensnared in mediocrity.

So, to say I'm still in search of the perfect game would be a bit of an understatement. I think that each of the three games did things well, and that by hitting those strengths, a pretty challenging game could be designed. So that is my quest, to design a game that is centered around teamwork and competition.

[Cap Ologist]

Each character will have three basic attributes: education, leadership and energy.

Education can be gained at any of the schools located throughout the world. It will also be randomly gained from time to time through the actual training of a skill. Education will be skill specific, not a generic bonus. Higher levels of education will result in kingdom bonuses, allowing others you've chosen to work with to benefit.

Leadership can be gained in two ways. One, by successfully completing random events such as leading a successful attack against NPC fighters, and two, through training other skills. The first way will result in larger gains, but will be more infrequent. The second way will be consistent but much slower. To establish a kingdom, a player will have to first reach a minimum leadership level. This will hopefully create a more enjoyable gaming experience as it will prevent new players to joining a kingdom led by unknowledgeable people. Leadership will also determine how many soldiers you can lead during an invasion, and how quickly you can recruit invaders.

Energy is used to train all skills. Combat will be a bigger drain on energy than other skills. This will make all skills somewhat challenging to train, but an efficient kingdom shouldn't have difficulty managing the supply chain. Energy can be gained through the training of other skills, with the more 'physically challenging' skills providing a faster way to level. Energy can be restored through eating food or by resting.

Each player will be limited in what they can carry on their person. But they can buy various pack animals like donkeys, mules, and oxen to pull different sized carts and wagons to increase their carrying capacity. Each player can own one house which must be built in their kingdom.

Player's wealth will be measured in silver. Silver can be gained various ways in the game: selling items to NPC shops, fighting NPC fighters, etc.

[Cap Ologist]

The game will take place during the medieval time period in the time of kings, castles and knights. I'm debating between two ideas, which will probably be more aesthetics than anything else:

1. A chain of islands, with several larger islands where the main resource gathering takes place. Each kingdom would be set on its own island, each with its advantages/disadvantages. This would require the creation of boats to launch invasions, which would increase the difficulty of launching them.

2. A continental setting, with kingdoms based in different locations connected by roads throughout the map. This would make invasions slightly easier than the island setting.

Either setting will only have 20-25 spots for kingdoms, thus creating more impetus for conflict. There will also be a PvP area, where defeat could result in a loss of leadership skill, a stay in a hospital for several hours, etc. Still tinkering with different ideas. The PvP area will most likely be the only place to gather the highest level raw materials.

[Cap Ologist]

The primary skills are those that focus on gathering resources that are used to train the other skills.

1. Logging
Grab your hatchet and head to the nearest forest to gather timber. There are five types of trees, each producing a different amount of lumber after they've been sawed. Pine (1 piece of lumber), spruce (2 pieces), birch (3 pieces), beech (4 pieces), and oak (5 pieces). Different forests will be made available as you increase in logging experience. Also, the more experienced lumberjacks will be more successful at chopping down usable trees.

2. Fishing
Fishing will take place in fresh and saltwater locations. There are eight types of fish that restore different amounts of energy after they've been cooked: minnows (1 E.P.), perch (2 E.P.), bass (4 E.P.), catfish (6 E.P.), trout (8 E.P.), salmon (10 E.P.), tuna ( 11 E.P.) and lobster (12 E.P.). Fishing will probably also work similarly to logging.

3. Mining
Mining will take place in different locations throughout the map. There are 5 types of ore available at 5 different mines. Each miner must meet a minimum level requirement to mine at each location.

4. Cultivating
Cultivating will take place in random locations with the discovery of wild plants and in the fields owned by kingdoms. The random discovery of wild plants will be open to the public, the fields can be opened/closed to the public based on the desires of the kingdom. There are six plants that can be cultivated for food: beans (1. E.P.), carrots (2 E.P.), squash (3 E.P.), tomatoes (4 E.P.), corn (5 E.P.) and potatoes (6 E.P.). Cultivating levels will determine the types of plants you can plant/harvest and the success rate of the plantings/harvesting.

[Cap Ologist]

The secondary skills focus on taking the raw resources and converting them into usable goods. Each kingdom will be able to build processing facilities at there location. There will also be public facilities that can be used.

Craftsmanship:
Craftsmanship allows a player to convert timber into lumber and use the lumber to build kingdom structures, boats, carts and wagons. Levels dictate how efficiently you can convert timber into lumber and how efficiently you can use lumber to build structures, boats, carts and wagons.

Cooking:
Cooking turns raw fish into an edible source of energy as well as providing different options for using vegetables. Levels dictate how efficiently you cook, reducing the number of burnt fish and specialty dishes.

Smithing:
Smithing is a two step process. First, the ore has to be smelted down into one of the six types of bars. Then the bars can be smithed into the various tools, weapons and armor. Levels dictate what kind of bars you can make and how many usable bars you are able to smelt as well as how many usable tools, weapons and armor you can smelt.

[Cap Ologist]

Here are some ideas for skills that might possibly work themselves into the game.

1. Speed
This will mainly help people get places quicker. It could also play a role in combat. Right now, I could go either way on it.

2. Thieving
Unlike Syrnia and Omerta thieving, I'm actually enjoying the prospect of this skill. Players can choose to gain thieving experience by picking the locks on money pouches and treasure chests as well as NPC shops. If they choose to thieve a player and are successful, they can steal anything that is in on the pack animal/cart of that player. If they are unsuccessful, the thieving victim gets 1 swing at the thief. If the swing wipes out the energy points of the thief, the thief will suffer the same consequences as defeat in the PvP area.

3. Wizardry
Not sure about this one at all, but I'm thinking of 2 options: enchanting players to make them work more efficiently for a short period of time or possibly enchanting equipment. Still undecided for now.

[Cap Ologist]

Kingdoms can be formed when a player reaches a minimum leadership level, probably level 10, but that will be determined when the formula for experience is figured out. There will be 20 or 25 locations for kingdoms in the world. Every kingdom is able to invade any other kingdom. If a kingdom successfully completes a TBD number of consecutive invasions, they can choose to evict the citizens of that kingdom, thus clearing a spot for their friends to start a kingdom.

Each kingdom will have different structures/facilities they can build:
Castle: primary defensive structure, several options of fixed size that limits the number of other buildings you can build.
Towers: increases the ability to withstand invasions
Drawbridge: increases the ability to withstand invasions
Moat: increases the ability to withstand invasions
Warehouses: only place other than on a person that items can be stored, can be looted during raids.
Kitchen: cooking location
Sawmill: converts timber into lumber
Blacksmith shop: converts ore into bars, and bars into usable goods.
Greenhouse/fields: places to grow crops
Woodshop: place to build carts/wagons/boats
Market: place to buy/sell goods from other players
Recruiting facilities: place to recruit troops for invasions
Libraries: Private academies to train education, possibly add an extra bonus
Alchemy Workshop: Anybody up for a little Mad Science?

I'm considering different options to keep people from jumping from kingdom to kingdom. I'm thinking either they take a significant leadership loss or they have to fulfill some work requirement.

[Cap Ologist]

There are two aspects to the combat design, individual and corporate.

Individual combat is essentially what it sounds like. You will have to train your character against different leveled opponents, each with their pros and cons.

As of right now, I've got 8 opponents in mind, and more will be added as needed. Here they are from least challenging to most challenging:

Gypsy (5 E.P.)
Bandit (10 E.P.)
Pirate (15 E.P.)
Highwayman (20 E.P.)
Gladiator (25 E.P.)
Renegade (30 E.P.)
Barbarian (35 E.P.)
Mercenary (40 E.P.)

Weapons and armor can be gained two ways:
1. By smithing them
2. By looting them (either from NPC fighters or human fighters in the PvP area)

Each of the smithable pieces of armor and weapons can be made out of the different types of metals that can be smelted. Tin will be the weakest, platinum will be the strongest. The armor/weapons looted from NPC fighters will be different from the smithable weapons/armor.

The tentative list of armor:
Helmet
Sleeves
Breastplate
Chainmail
Shield
Leggings
Boots

The tentative list of weapons:
Mace
Sword (short/long/2-handed)
Battle axe
Spear
Falchion

As the player gains experience and rises in stature among the warriors of the land, they are able to serve as a 'recruiter' by impart their wisdom to new soldiers. These recruits will form invading armies that are sent to pillage and plunder opposing rivals. As a player's experience increases, he is able to train recruits into more capable adversaries while also shortening the required time to train them.

Each faction will have a set time limit from the time they begin raising an army to use it. Idle armies lose interest and soldiers desert, wasting the time and resources used to train them. When the first soldier is recruited, the countdown begins. The troops will desert depending on the wages paid to them at recruitment.

As far as the actual army is concerned, I'm still kicking some ideas around. One idea is to have armies comprised of different types of soldiers such as archers, footsoldiers, and knights. Each of the different types will also have different levels, so a level one archer would be weaker than a level two, and so forth. The level of the recruit would be determined by the combat level of the 'recruiter.'

High combat levels will be needed not only to train invading armies, but to fend them off as well. There will also be a high risk/high reward PvP area in the game. I'm still waffling back and forth on whether this area should carry an Omerta-style death or not.

Alright, I want to go back and add a few things here. I want to create a game where attacking occurs frequently, but not too frequently. To avoid some future pitfalls, making a few changes to how the invasions work:

1. You'll need active members from your group online to launch the raid. Each active member will lead X number of soldiers into battle. Perhaps the leadership skill will increase the number of players you can personally lead.

2. While the invading army is trying to outlast the active defending group, the attacking active members are fighting through a defending army. The attackers have to defeat the defending army and still have invading soldiers alive after a certain amount of time, say 45 minutes for the raid to be successful.

3. Each group is fair game to be attacked. Diplomacy will be crucial, and perhaps vassals will be a part of the game. So if a group is launching annoying raids, they can be attacked by the universe. Also, I'm thinking of adding an element that if you have a set number of consecutive, successful raids you can evict that group from their location, forcing them to start completely over.

4. Frequent losses during offensive attacks will reduce your ability to recruit, by either lengthening the time needed or by removing access to higher level troops who don't want to fight for a loser.

[Cap Ologist]

To raise an army, you'll need:
1. The recruits
2. Armor/weapons to equip them (helps determine the CL of the unit)
3. Provisions (generates the number of E.P.s the unit will have)
4. Boats (if invading islands)
5. Training facilities at your castle
6. Wages for the recruits (determines how long before they desert)

Armies:
Armies will consist of several different units, with different advantages/disadvantages.

1. conscripts
2. spear men
3. light infantry
4. heavy infantry
5. light calvary
6. heavy calvary

Invasion Guidelines:

1. You'll need active members from your kingdom online to launch the raid. Each active member will lead X number of soldiers into battle. The number of soldiers they can lead will be directly tied to their leadership levels.

2. While the invading army is trying to outlast the defending kingdom, the attacking active members are fighting through a defending army. The attackers have to defeat the defending army and still have invading soldiers alive after a certain amount of time, say 45 minutes for the raid to be successful.

3. Each kingdom is fair game to be attacked. Diplomacy will be crucial, and perhaps vassals will be a part of the game. So if a kingdom is launching annoying raids, they can be attacked by the universe. Also, I'm thinking of adding an element that if you have a set number of consecutive, successful raids you can evict that kingdom from their location, forcing them to start completely over.

4. Frequent losses during offensive attacks will reduce your ability to recruit, by either lengthening the time needed or by removing access to higher level troops who don't want to fight for a loser.

[Cap Ologist]

Reserved for FSP1

[Cap Ologist]

Reserved for FSP2

[Cap Ologist]

Reserved for FSP3

[Cap Ologist]

Reserved for FSP4

[Cap Ologist]

Reserved for FSP5

[Cap Ologist]

A few things for my devoted beta testers to think/comment about:

1. Levels

I'm thinking of using them much differently than Syrnia or Movoda does. Instead of 'unlocking' different items, they will 'unlock' competency at gathering/making items. So, while in theory, a level 1 miner will be able to mine platinum, the odds of them actually being 'competent' to do so will be severely stacked against them.

I think this will bring a whole new dimension of strategy to the game as kingdoms will have more decisions to make.

2. Armies

I'm leaning more to being able to customize different units. Right now, I have 5 or 6 units that will make up the armies. Their overall strength/difficulty will be based on a base level plus the type of equipment they are outfitted with and their EPs will be determined by a base level plus the amount of provisions given them. So, say the base combat level of a conscript is level 5 with 10 EPs. If they are outfitted with low level equipment, they may end up with a CL of 15, if they are outfitted with higher level equipment, they could end up with a CL of 25. The EPs could increase by 1 for every 2 EPs of food they are given. Those numbers are purely fictional as I haven't worked out a logarithm for how that would work.

3. Any thoughts about the 'On The Bubble' skills?

4. Should higher level equipment reduce the cycle times or improve the success rate, or both?

5. Should there be level restrictions on equipment or should the break rate increase dramatically the less experienced the user is?

[JAG]

A couple global comments:

1. Do you want the game to be possible to play solo? (obviously it will be a much more rich game if people play as part of a kingdom, just curious about this).

2. Glad you reconsidered some aspects of the leveling...your last post still mentions what you were thinking about before just so you know to change it at some point.

Education can be gained at any of the schools located throughout the world. It will also be randomly gained from time to time through the actual training of a skill. Education will be skill specific, not a generic bonus. Higher levels of education will result in kingdom bonuses, allowing others you've chosen to work with to benefit.

So you will have an education level for each skill? Learning at the schools will require energy...plus silver? Or is that not yet worked out? I like the idea of higher levels of education allowing kingdoms to bonus from that knowledge, though I think it would have to be hard to get to that level or perhaps there couldn't be a cumulative bonus from everyone in the guild so as to make it not too unbalancing.

"Leadership can be gained in two ways. One, by successfully completing random events such as leading a successful attack against NPC fighters, and two, through training other skills. The first way will result in larger gains, but will be more infrequent. The second way will be consistent but much slower. To establish a kingdom, a player will have to first reach a minimum leadership level. This will hopefully create a more enjoyable gaming experience as it will prevent new players to joining a kingdom led by unknowledgeable people. Leadership will also determine how many soldiers you can lead during an invasion, and how quickly you can recruit invaders."

Just wanted to say I *love* the idea of 'medival heists and OC's' and there's a lot of potential there for you to make interesting scenarios.

"Energy is used to train all skills. Combat will be a bigger drain on energy than other skills. This will make all skills somewhat challenging to train, but an efficient kingdom shouldn't have difficulty managing the supply chain. Energy can be gained through the training of other skills, with the more 'physically challenging' skills providing a faster way to level. Energy can be restored through eating food or by resting."

As I think I mentioned in the other thread, I'm curious to see how you will handle this because from what you've said regarding failure rates for fishing / cooking, it sounds like it will be close to impossible for people to have the energy to continually train skills all day, or perhaps there will be some low level tasks that will require little or no energy and people will have to decide how to ration their daily energy. I personally think it would be a good idea to avoid a situation where people are stuck with nothing to do because they have no energy.

"Player's wealth will be measured in silver. Silver can be gained various ways in the game: selling items to NPC shops, fighting NPC fighters, etc."

Here I recommend taking a lesson from Syrnia and Movoda where numerous people find currency to be worthless and there's an ever-increasing amount of it around and make certain things expensive so people actually have to be careful with what they purchase. From looking at your ideas thusfar, you appear to have things in place to do this already.

"There will also be a PvP area, where defeat could result in a loss of leadership skill, a stay in a hospital for several hours, etc. Still tinkering with different ideas. The PvP area will most likely be the only place to gather the highest level raw materials."

I know you said you're still tinkering with this, but I'm not high on the idea of a hospital stay for several hours. I know what you're getting at, you want there to be real risk and real loss for those who go there unprepared, but maybe you could have them not able to regain energy for a few hrs instead and as a result forced to do minimal tasks during those few hrs (assuming you agreed with my thoughts above in regards to energy). Also, the PvP area being teh only place to gather the highest lvl raw materials...I could people using it to get the highest lvl ore, but as you describe the other skills, like in Syrnia, would anyone use the OL to fish for lobster or would they settle for Senyn fish if that was all that was available? If that's going to be the premise for all skills (and I like the idea), I think you'll have to have some additional catches for reasons why people would do high lvl WC or fishing in the OL (much improved success rate, increased specialty drops, super specialty drops only available in the PvP area as some ideas).

"1. Speed
This will mainly help people get places quicker. It could also play a role in combat. Right now, I could go either way on it."

After seeing speed in both Syrnia and Movoda, I would say don't introduce it. If you want players able to get to locations faster, have them purchase horses (good way to take cash out of the economy), be able to ride on wagons, get boots from a drop, etc... The idea of making speed a skill that's useful in combat is a good idea in theory, but I don't think it has worked out well in Mov.

"2. Thieving
Unlike Syrnia and Omerta thieving, I'm actually enjoying the prospect of this skill. Players can choose to gain thieving experience by picking the locks on money pouches and treasure chests as well as NPC shops. If they choose to thieve a player and are successful, they can steal anything that is in on the pack animal/cart of that player. If they are unsuccessful, the thieving victim gets 1 swing at the thief. If the swing wipes out the energy points of the thief, the thief will suffer the same consequences as defeat in the PvP area."

Sounds like a high-risk (at least when facing a high lvl fighter) high-reward skill. I think you would have to tweak some aspects of it and set some limits, but otherwise it could work. I'm afraid it would be one of those things that would be very difficult to balance on both sides.

"3. Wizardry
Not sure about this one at all, but I'm thinking of 2 options: enchanting players to make them work more efficiently for a short period of time or possibly enchanting equipment. Still undecided for now."

How about an alchemy skill in place of Wizardry? I assume you have something like that in mind for cooking vegetables from what you intimate above (like movoda foods that don't just heal hps I mean), but for alchemy you could make the ingredients quite varied across skills, drops, random finds when moving from place to place, random small 'harvests'...lots of possibilities, and perhaps have the effects be more spectacular.

"Warehouses: only place other than on a person that items can be stored, can be looted during raids."

First off, I love the structures you have already in place. I'm not sure I really like the idea that warehouses are the only place besides on a person things can be stored. I think I know what you want here, for raids and such to actually be able to take stuff from people without them storing their stuff off in some private locale. However you have to consider that a lot of new people joining the game aren't going to necessarily know anyone, and to ask them to toss their stuff into a communal warehouse of a bunch of strangers is asking a lot. I'm not sure how you conceived of them, but perhaps each warehouse could be split into sections, one half of it reserved for public stuff and one half for private (that could be tricky as guilds add and subtract people though). Also, the beginning of the game, before when people are capable of building a warehouse, would require a lot of micro-inventory management that might be more hassle than fun.

Other potential structures you might consider:

Library --- Needed for guilds to get kingdom bonuses from education (better libraries + high lvl education = better advantages to the kingdom)

Alchemist Workshop --- Needed to make potions (if you decide to add the skill)

"I'm considering different options to keep people from jumping from kingdom to kingdom. I'm thinking either they take a significant leadership loss or they have to fulfill some work requirement."

That's a tough one. A leadership loss seems pretty reasonable...why would people want to follow someone who lacks in loyalty? Having to fulfill a work requirement I'm not that fond of because you could get people being overly aggressive and annoying with their recruitment of others knowing that even if they don't want to stick around, they'll at least get something from them before they leave.

"The tentative list of weapons:
Mace
Sword (short/long/2-handed)
Battle axe
Spear
Machete"

Machete seems like an odd medieval weapon. I'm not sure how you intend to classify the different weapon attributes, but I recommend making it sensible to choose one over another instead of like Syrnia (where everyone ignores all weapons but axes) or Movoda (where there is some choice, but still a number of useless weapons that no one makes).

"Armies:
Armies will consist of several different units, with different advantages/disadvantages.

1. conscripts
2. spear men
3. light infantry
4. heavy infantry
5. light calvary
6. heavy calvary"

Just thought I'd throw out the idea of being able to hire a wizard for your army. It would be expensive, perhaps requiring a high leadership or combat to attract him/her to work with you, and the wizard would demand to work alone (only one wizard per army). If you like the idea, you could go a number of different ways with it (wizard requires additional 'random' training to learn different spells to be used during an attack, perhaps increases troop morale just by the wizard's presense, could assist or be required to make certain potions, ...)

"4. Should higher level equipment reduce the cycle times or improve the success rate, or both?"

Either and/or both. I think however you want to go with it will be good.

"5. Should there be level restrictions on equipment or should the break rate increase dramatically the less experienced the user is?"

I can't remember if you decided you wouldn't go with durability (I think maybe you should for armor / weapons since it could be the 'failure rate' for inexperienced fighters), but if you do, I would say Yes and Yes to your question. As I see it, as people get higher in level, they are much more comfortable fighting in lower lvl equipment that they are accustomed to (same with getting used to mining tin ore for example), but as they are able to use new equipment by hitting their lvl req., there should be a learning curve again and possibly they could have some negatives to their combat with the new equipment until they are used to it. Just throwing out ideas.


Things to think about:

What combat attributes are you going to have?
What weapon / armor attributes are you going to have? (I like something like 'defense' to reduce damage taken and 'blocking', ability to completely prevent damage, for armor).


Nice work, very well thought out Cap.

[Cap Ologist]

Originally Posted by JAG

A couple global comments:

1. Do you want the game to be possible to play solo? (obviously it will be a much more rich game if people play as part of a kingdom, just curious about this).

Ideally, I would love to make it more like Omerta than Syrnia/Movoda in that regard. However, perhaps people should be able to own 1 house. That way those who want to play solo can, and that will also eliminate some of the concerns about the warehouse issue. However, with the failure rates, it's gonna be extremely difficult for those who think 'specializing' is of the devil. The major reason I want the game to be more team-oriented than solo is to avoid the rise of mercenaries, who join kingdoms temporarily, and then leave and face no risk of losing stuff.

Originally Posted by JAG

2. Glad you reconsidered some aspects of the leveling...your last post still mentions what you were thinking about before just so you know to change it at some point.

Thanks, will change that.

Originally Posted by JAG

So you will have an education level for each skill? Learning at the schools will require energy...plus silver? Or is that not yet worked out? I like the idea of higher levels of education allowing kingdoms to bonus from that knowledge, though I think it would have to be hard to get to that level or perhaps there couldn't be a cumulative bonus from everyone in the guild so as to make it not too unbalancing.

I'm thinking it will require silver and energy to train (see below for more on how energy will probably work). This will help remove some of the excess silver from the game. Another idea I'm kicking around is having the skill-specific education levels and a 'general' education level which will affect all skills, but at a much lower rate than the specific ones. This would allow having a kingdom 'scribe', similar to the family 'hammer'. The scribe would receive an experience bonus plus a price reduction in training. And their general level would be the one to determine the kingdom bonuses.

Originally Posted by JAG

Just wanted to say I *love* the idea of 'medival heists and OC's' and there's a lot of potential there for you to make interesting scenarios.

Thanks, this idea developed from the Native American game I started designing. I love the way the tribes had different ways for the boys to become men.

Originally Posted by JAG

As I think I mentioned in the other thread, I'm curious to see how you will handle this because from what you've said regarding failure rates for fishing / cooking, it sounds like it will be close to impossible for people to have the energy to continually train skills all day, or perhaps there will be some low level tasks that will require little or no energy and people will have to decide how to ration their daily energy. I personally think it would be a good idea to avoid a situation where people are stuck with nothing to do because they have no energy.

This is still very much up in the air, but I'm thinking that the resource gathering skills will require more energy than the processing skills, since it's possible that you could be sitting on a stool while you run the sawmill, cook, etc. Also, I'm not thinking that the energy lost through training these skills will be comparable to what we've come to expect with combat training. I've done zero testing/modeling on how this will work, so I'm sure it will change 2 or 3 times (at the very least).

Originally Posted by JAG

Here I recommend taking a lesson from Syrnia and Movoda where numerous people find currency to be worthless and there's an ever-increasing amount of it around and make certain things expensive so people actually have to be careful with what they purchase. From looking at your ideas thus far, you appear to have things in place to do this already.

Since so much equipment is going to be required to launch invasions, I don't see the NPC shops being flooded with excess armor/weapons like Syrnia/Movoda. These are a few ideas I have to help keep silver in check:
1. Buying goods only found in NPCs: donkeys, mules, horses, oxen, etc.
2. Combat pay for invading/defending armies
3. After level 10, you have to pay a fee to use public processing facilities.

Originally Posted by JAG

I know you said you're still tinkering with this, but I'm not high on the idea of a hospital stay for several hours. I know what you're getting at, you want there to be real risk and real loss for those who go there unprepared, but maybe you could have them not able to regain energy for a few hrs instead and as a result forced to do minimal tasks during those few hrs (assuming you agreed with my thoughts above in regards to energy). Also, the PvP area being teh only place to gather the highest lvl raw materials...I could people using it to get the highest lvl ore, but as you describe the other skills, like in Syrnia, would anyone use the OL to fish for lobster or would they settle for Senyn fish if that was all that was available? If that's going to be the premise for all skills (and I like the idea), I think you'll have to have some additional catches for reasons why people would do high lvl WC or fishing in the OL (much improved success rate, increased specialty drops, super specialty drops only available in the PvP area as some ideas).

One idea I have is for the resource gathering locations be one side of the PvP area and the processing facilities on the other side to force people to have to travel through this area.

Originally Posted by JAG

After seeing speed in both Syrnia and Movoda, I would say don't introduce it. If you want players able to get to locations faster, have them purchase horses (good way to take cash out of the economy), be able to ride on wagons, get boots from a drop, etc... The idea of making speed a skill that's useful in combat is a good idea in theory, but I don't think it has worked out well in Mov.

Yeah, I kind of agree. But then I thought, how will people find flowers?

Originally Posted by JAG

Sounds like a high-risk (at least when facing a high lvl fighter) high-reward skill. I think you would have to tweak some aspects of it and set some limits, but otherwise it could work. I'm afraid it would be one of those things that would be very difficult to balance on both sides.

I kind of like the Omerta aspect of getting one swing at them. However, they will have options that only result in jailtime, so if they chose to play with fire, they should get burned.

Originally Posted by JAG

How about an alchemy skill in place of Wizardry? I assume you have something like that in mind for cooking vegetables from what you intimate above (like movoda foods that don't just heal hps I mean), but for alchemy you could make the ingredients quite varied across skills, drops, random finds when moving from place to place, random small 'harvests'...lots of possibilities, and perhaps have the effects be more spectacular.

Interesting idea.

Originally Posted by JAG

First off, I love the structures you have already in place. I'm not sure I really like the idea that warehouses are the only place besides on a person things can be stored. I think I know what you want here, for raids and such to actually be able to take stuff from people without them storing their stuff off in some private locale. However you have to consider that a lot of new people joining the game aren't going to necessarily know anyone, and to ask them to toss their stuff into a communal warehouse of a bunch of strangers is asking a lot. I'm not sure how you conceived of them, but perhaps each warehouse could be split into sections, one half of it reserved for public stuff and one half for private (that could be tricky as guilds add and subtract people though). Also, the beginning of the game, before when people are capable of building a warehouse, would require a lot of micro-inventory management that might be more hassle than fun.

Other potential structures you might consider:

Library --- Needed for guilds to get kingdom bonuses from education (better libraries + high lvl education = better advantages to the kingdom)

Alchemist Workshop --- Needed to make potions (if you decide to add the skill)

Perhaps make the library a pre-req to designating a kingdom scribe. Mentioned already about allowing 1 small personal house to help solve some of the issues, I keep forgetting that a lot of people will show up without a core group.

Originally Posted by JAG

That's a tough one. A leadership loss seems pretty reasonable...why would people want to follow someone who lacks in loyalty? Having to fulfill a work requirement I'm not that fond of because you could get people being overly aggressive and annoying with their recruitment of others knowing that even if they don't want to stick around, they'll at least get something from them before they leave.

Yeah, the leadership loss will probably be the way to go here. Or giving people the option between paying in resources (with limits) or taking the leadership loss.

Originally Posted by JAG

Machete seems like an odd medieval weapon. I'm not sure how you intend to classify the different weapon attributes, but I recommend making it sensible to choose one over another instead of like Syrnia (where everyone ignores all weapons but axes) or Movoda (where there is some choice, but still a number of useless weapons that no one makes).

Oops, changed it to a falchion. There are several things that could be done with the weapons.
1. Different weapons have different 'swing' cycles.
2. Different weapons are better suited for NPC combat, while others are better suited for PvP.
3. Different weapons last longer/easier to learn how to use.

Originally Posted by JAG

Just thought I'd throw out the idea of being able to hire a wizard for your army. It would be expensive, perhaps requiring a high leadership or combat to attract him/her to work with you, and the wizard would demand to work alone (only one wizard per army). If you like the idea, you could go a number of different ways with it (wizard requires additional 'random' training to learn different spells to be used during an attack, perhaps increases troop morale just by the wizard's presense, could assist or be required to make certain potions, ...)

Interesting, and another way to drain cash out of the game.

Originally Posted by JAG

Either and/or both. I think however you want to go with it will be good.

Originally Posted by JAG

I can't remember if you decided you wouldn't go with durability (I think maybe you should for armor / weapons since it could be the 'failure rate' for inexperienced fighters), but if you do, I would say Yes and Yes to your question. As I see it, as people get higher in level, they are much more comfortable fighting in lower lvl equipment that they are accustomed to (same with getting used to mining tin ore for example), but as they are able to use new equipment by hitting their lvl req., there should be a learning curve again and possibly they could have some negatives to their combat with the new equipment until they are used to it. Just throwing out ideas.

I think there will be durability issues (how else will we capitalize on our platinum monopoly). Durability just won't be as dramatic as I was originally planning. Right now, each type of metal will have a unique base rate, and a unique level bonus multiplier. That should model what you were talking about with higher level people being more competent with lower level stuff.
[quote=JAG;1597066]

Things to think about:

What combat attributes are you going to have?
What weapon / armor attributes are you going to have? (I like something like 'defense' to reduce damage taken and 'blocking', ability to completely prevent damage, for armor).

Still kind up in the air, but right now I'm leaning towards a single combat level like in movoda that is added to the attributes of the weapons/armor:

1. Accuracy - ability to avoid missing what you're aiming at
2. Force - ability to inflict maximum damage
3. Evasiveness - ability avoid being hit
4. Obstruction - ability to prevent damage

Originally Posted by JAG

Nice work, very well thought out Cap.

Thanks for the feedback. Always nice to get another perspective.

[JAG]

"The major reason I want the game to be more team-oriented than solo is to avoid the rise of mercenaries, who join kingdoms temporarily, and then leave and face no risk of losing stuff."

Completely agree. If the leadership loss doesn't seem significant to stop people from guild-hopping, you could probably look at a few different ways to prevent it.

"Another idea I'm kicking around is having the skill-specific education levels and a 'general' education level which will affect all skills, but at a much lower rate than the specific ones. This would allow having a kingdom 'scribe', similar to the family 'hammer'. The scribe would receive an experience bonus plus a price reduction in training. And their general level would be the one to determine the kingdom bonuses."

Sounds interesting. I can see a number of guilds fighting over who gets to be that person already.

"This is still very much up in the air, but I'm thinking that the resource gathering skills will require more energy than the processing skills, since it's possible that you could be sitting on a stool while you run the sawmill, cook, etc. Also, I'm not thinking that the energy lost through training these skills will be comparable to what we've come to expect with combat training. I've done zero testing/modeling on how this will work, so I'm sure it will change 2 or 3 times (at the very least)."

I figured this would require a lot of tweaking, but I wanted to at least mention my concern. I won't bring it up again until you start talking about a more finalized version and after it gets tested for a while.

"One idea I have is for the resource gathering locations be one side of the PvP area and the processing facilities on the other side to force people to have to travel through this area."

That might be a bit harsh or a bit too favorable for players focusing only on combat (though for sure you'll see a lot of activity in there then). Maybe just for mid-to-upper level materials?

I didn't think to ask if you had thoughts regarding whether it will be real-time or turn-based combat in the PvP area, assuming you had thought about how you wanted the PvP area to work.

"I kind of like the Omerta aspect of getting one swing at them."

Agreed, depends on how damaging 'death' is to a potential thief though. Maybe make it so thieving is only available when not in armor as well to increase the risk.

"Yeah, the leadership loss will probably be the way to go here. Or giving people the option between paying in resources (with limits) or taking the leadership loss."

Not sure about paying in resources, as you could have someone come in as a merc., they give resources to the guild, then the guild gives them back after they leave.

"Oops, changed it to a falchion. There are several things that could be done with the weapons.
1. Different weapons have different 'swing' cycles.
2. Different weapons are better suited for NPC combat, while others are better suited for PvP.
3. Different weapons last longer/easier to learn how to use."

They all sound good to me. For 2 maybe different weapons are better against different NPC's. I know you're trying to be different but having different potential damage inflicted by different weapon types seems reasonable as well. You could go D&D here and classify the damage type as slashing/crushing/piercing, then have different armor work better vs. different weapon types as well.

"Still kind up in the air, but right now I'm leaning towards a single combat level like in movoda that is added to the attributes of the weapons/armor:

1. Accuracy - ability to avoid missing what you're aiming at
2. Force - ability to inflict maximum damage
3. Evasiveness - ability avoid being hit
4. Obstruction - ability to prevent damage"

I think a Syrnia-style system where you can choose what attribute to train is more interesting as it leads to more variety in character, but then it's probably more difficult to balance that so the attributes are close to each other in value.

[JHandley]

Originally Posted by JAG

As I think I mentioned in the other thread, I'm curious to see how you will handle this because from what you've said regarding failure rates for fishing / cooking, it sounds like it will be close to impossible for people to have the energy to continually train skills all day, or perhaps there will be some low level tasks that will require little or no energy and people will have to decide how to ration their daily energy. I personally think it would be a good idea to avoid a situation where people are stuck with nothing to do because they have no energy.

I may be misunderstanding something, but can't energy be replenished through food? If so, wouldn't someone who has run themselves dry simply need to get someone from their kingdom to feed them?

Originally Posted by JAG

First off, I love the structures you have already in place. I'm not sure I really like the idea that warehouses are the only place besides on a person things can be stored. I think I know what you want here, for raids and such to actually be able to take stuff from people without them storing their stuff off in some private locale. However you have to consider that a lot of new people joining the game aren't going to necessarily know anyone, and to ask them to toss their stuff into a communal warehouse of a bunch of strangers is asking a lot. I'm not sure how you conceived of them, but perhaps each warehouse could be split into sections, one half of it reserved for public stuff and one half for private (that could be tricky as guilds add and subtract people though). Also, the beginning of the game, before when people are capable of building a warehouse, would require a lot of micro-inventory management that might be more hassle than fun.

I agree that forcing new players to give everything they have to the kingdom is a bit much to ask. I think the solution is a lot more simple than making half of the warehouse private, though. Make it a rule that you can only have your house or houses in the same town as the kingdom you belong to.

Simply think of a kingdom as a town. In this town you have a granary where food is kept for the whole town and a armory where equipment is shared for everyone. This doesn't mean that people in the town don't still keep stuff in their own homes and just as importantly, it doesn't mean raiding armies will only take from the granary or armory. Therefore, if you lose a raid, everything in that town is fairgame, regardless of the building.

This may also have the nice side effect of gently nudging people into thinking about which kingdom to join and encouraging them to stay there. If they want to move kingdoms, they can only take with them what they can carry because they won't be able to build a new house in their new kingdom until they join that kingdom. Once they join another kingdom, the townspeople will all gather around to raze the traitors house. Now, it would be possible to keep making trips to the new kingdom and having your friend store your stuff until you got it all out, but it would be very time consuming and a pain in the ass to build your house all over again.

[JAG]

I may be misunderstanding something, but can't energy be replenished through food? If so, wouldn't someone who has run themselves dry simply need to get someone from their kingdom to feed them?

Yes, I'm just saying that a careful system should be in place. When people start out with no skills and they know no one, how do they replenish energy to do anything? Since every skill uses energy, it's going to require a ton of cooked food to keep everyone going. If cooking doesn't result in a lot of food being made, that means that you might need half the people in your guild cooking just so skill training doesn't come to a halt. Or maybe not as it depends on how exactly the system will work, which is why I'm holding off commenting until there's something more specific in place.

I agree that forcing new players to give everything they have to the kingdom is a bit much to ask. I think the solution is a lot more simple than making half of the warehouse private, though. Make it a rule that you can only have your house or houses in the same town as the kingdom you belong to.

Simply think of a kingdom as a town. In this town you have a granary where food is kept for the whole town and a armory where equipment is shared for everyone. This doesn't mean that people in the town don't still keep stuff in their own homes and just as importantly, it doesn't mean raiding armies will only take from the granary or armory. Therefore, if you lose a raid, everything in that town is fairgame, regardless of the building.

This may also have the nice side effect of gently nudging people into thinking about which kingdom to join and encouraging them to stay there. If they want to move kingdoms, they can only take with them what they can carry because they won't be able to build a new house in their new kingdom until they join that kingdom. Once they join another kingdom, the townspeople will all gather around to raze the traitors house. Now, it would be possible to keep making trips to the new kingdom and having your friend store your stuff until you got it all out, but it would be very time consuming and a pain in the ass to build your house all over again.

Good call, that's far far better than my idea.

[Cap Ologist]

Quick responses:

1. Yes, you can resupply energy by eating food. Energy points work the same as HPs, with the exception that you burn through them training every skill. Perhaps, you can slowly gain energy exp and EPs by taking power naps.

2. Love the housing idea, that with the leadership penalty should be more than enough to dissuade the mercenary concept.

3. The multiple combat skill idea is very appealing, however I'm worried about the strain that would put on the supply chain.

4. Still tweaking the success/failure logarithm. Thinking it might be too severe right now. Either that, or I'll have to plan on starting people out with enough food to work for several hours.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Cap Ologist

3. The multiple combat skill idea is very appealing, however I'm worried about the strain that would put on the supply chain.

The strain on the supply chain would be more from the amount of food needed to combat train at all. If your worry is that you need to spend 4x the amount of food to get to the same combat level you have envisioned, you could increase exp gains to counteract that. Perhaps a player could designate one of four primary combat skills to train giving 2x the normal exp, a secondary skill giving 1x the normal exp, and the remaining skills getting 0.5x the normal exp (or you could work out different amounts depending on how varied you want people to be free to make their warriors.)

[Cap Ologist]

Interesting idea, I'll have to play around with that for a bit and see what it looks like.

[Cap Ologist]

So it's been awhile....

Here is a screenie of the opening territory of the game:

Five Cities

And here is my first draft of the backstory of the game.

Many years ago, a brave adventurer named Aidan stumbled upon this remote part of the world. With his band of followers, he had successfully defeated each of the four tribes that had coexisted for hundreds of years. He built his own city on the shores of Quadlake, and named it after himself.

Aidan declared himself King of the Quadlakes and forced the four tribes to submit. He was a just leader, and left most of the local decisions in the hands of the local leaders. Through the passing of time, his influence in the region grew and at the height of the power of his Kingdom, Aidan's might reached far and wide. Many tribes came to him, requesting his
protection from neighboring tribes. Aidan's army was one of the best trained and equipped in the region, and the mere sight of his forces assembling in battle array terrified the bravest of chiefs.

Aidan married the daughter of the chief of the Druims. They had four children that lived to adulthood, a son and three daughters. The daughters were married off to the eldest sons of the Fexro, Takoy, and Corox chiefs. These marriage alliances were typical in that day, and they did much to increase the stability of the region. His son, Aidan the Younger, married a gypsy girl, and began to grow into the disappointment that Aidan I had always feared. Where his father was patient and just, Aidan the Younger was quick-tempered and dishonest.

And so as time passed, King Aidan departed this world, and his son Aidan the Younger assumed control of the empire. He sought to expand his territory with a series of wars that were poorly planned and equipped. His forces were beaten back time after time. Aidan the Younger ordered the execution of many of his generals, blaming them for the embarrassing defeats. But all that did was further reduce the competency of the army. Aidan the Younger would never win a battle during his reign.

Aidan the Younger had only one child with his gypsy wife, a son, Aidan III. Aidan III showed flashes of brilliance, and the citizens of the Kingdom looked forward to his reign, and hopefully a return to the supremacy demonstrated by King Aidan I. The reign of Aidan III began sooner than anyone would have expected, as his father Aidan II was thrown from his horse, breaking his neck.

Aidan III was more clever than his father, but was terrified of failure. This fear would drown out his dreams and ambitions. He married, but his marriage would never produce an heir. Many of his advisors urged him to put his wife away, and remarry. But Aidan would not, he had vowed to love her all his days, and he would never waver. Where his father had lost many battles, Aidan would avoid many, fearing the shame of defeat.

And so this morning, when the news reached you that King Aidan III had died in his sleep, you see your chance to put your mark on history. Gather your own loyal band of followers and build your own empire. Will your name surpass King Aidan I, or will you be just another nameless soul in the history of this land?

[Poli]

I'm sorry to say I missed this initially!

[Cap Ologist]

Here's a fog of war map:

FogOfWar

[Cap Ologist]

Originally Posted by Poli

I'm sorry to say I missed this initially!

I think you were on your FOFC Polling Sabbatical when it was first posted, no worries though cuz Jag and HC already volunteered you to beta test.

[Cap Ologist]

The Fog of War Removed:

NoFogOfWar

[Cap Ologist]

Five City Overview:

Aidan: Former capitol city of the region, contains an NPC shop, fishing for minnows and perch, and a public kitchen for cooking.

Druim: Northern city, a tin mine is located on the outskirts of town, inside is a public blacksmith's shop.

Fexron: Western city, a monastery is located on the outskirts of town where the monks operate a school.

Takoy: Eastern city, mystical, gypsies have built a camp on the outskirts where the young adventurer can learn to fight, inside the city, the gypsies operate an alchemist's lab that is open to the public.

Coros: Southern city, surrounded by forests where timber can be harvested, inside the city is a public sawmill where timber can be converted into lumber.

[Cap Ologist]

Misc. Thoughts:

1. Instead of a 'training' process to build an invading army (like Syrnia's pirate system), I'm thinking about treating it like an NPC shop where you hire mercenaries. Once you've paid for the number of soldiers you want, then you will distribute armor/rations. This will serve two purposes: 1, make it easier to track how long you have hired their services, and 2, eliminate what looks like a bunch of tedious work.

So, this is how I picture it playing out:

Player X clicks on his kingdom's recruiting center. He has 10,000 silver on him. He sees that he can hire 1,000 light infantry for 1 week, 500 heavy infantry for 1 week. He decides to go with the 1k. He pays the NPC shop the money, then he must have 1k sets of armor and 1k sets of rations. It takes a few mouse clicks for the equipping process, then he has the ability to launch a raid within the next 7 days.

2. -Time Food/Equipment

Not really sure what I want to do here. I've had several different trains of though in the past few days.

a. Your kingdom must possess a 'relic' that enables them to be made, with the idea being that this might actually make the relics worth fighting over. So, maybe there would be 2-3 relics of varying strength for each skill. I'd imagine we'd get a lot more action for the Grail if we were the only ones able to make -time food.

b. Making alchemy the controlling skill for producing them, instead of cooking, and just make the needed ingredients drops from other skill areas.

c. Doing away with them altogether, this is a game of endurance after all.

[Cap Ologist]

Redid the game map:

Here's the starting locations:

StageOne

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Cap Ologist

Misc. Thoughts:

1. Instead of a 'training' process to build an invading army (like Syrnia's pirate system), I'm thinking about treating it like an NPC shop where you hire mercenaries. Once you've paid for the number of soldiers you want, then you will distribute armor/rations. This will serve two purposes: 1, make it easier to track how long you have hired their services, and 2, eliminate what looks like a bunch of tedious work.

So, this is how I picture it playing out:

Player X clicks on his kingdom's recruiting center. He has 10,000 silver on him. He sees that he can hire 1,000 light infantry for 1 week, 500 heavy infantry for 1 week. He decides to go with the 1k. He pays the NPC shop the money, then he must have 1k sets of armor and 1k sets of rations. It takes a few mouse clicks for the equipping process, then he has the ability to launch a raid within the next 7 days.

Seems alright, better than the Syrnia version I would agree.

Originally Posted by Cap Ologist

2. -Time Food/Equipment

Not really sure what I want to do here. I've had several different trains of though in the past few days.

a. Your kingdom must possess a 'relic' that enables them to be made, with the idea being that this might actually make the relics worth fighting over. So, maybe there would be 2-3 relics of varying strength for each skill. I'd imagine we'd get a lot more action for the Grail if we were the only ones able to make -time food.

b. Making alchemy the controlling skill for producing them, instead of cooking, and just make the needed ingredients drops from other skill areas.

c. Doing away with them altogether, this is a game of endurance after all.

a. sounds the most interesting to me. I could see alliances where kingdoms with different relics trade -time food back and forth. On the other hand, all things being equal (not counting any negative relic effects or difficulties in making -time food) that might be too imbalancing to have only one kingdom capable of producing it. b. seems logical also, though I think effects from alchemy should be more spectacular. c. I dislike as it removes a way to play. Movoda is still a game of endurance and there's almost no limit to the amount of -time foods available there as there will be in your game.