More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

[aholbert32]

Re: More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

Giving levels to a animation that is exactly the same animation no matter the level and that also reduces your stamina is not realistic at all. Fight night champions had some in-depth stats when it came to the boxing aspect of fighting. Left and right power and speed for kicks and punches should be SUPER NECESSARY for immersion. Just have in depth stat tree with I guess levels to animations but only to boost accuracy, effectiveness with sub animation and etc. I wish I had time to do a dam chart or something to explain it better but limbs need to be broken down more and we need a lot more animations to make everything look and feel appealing

I wasnt addressing animations. Thats something that is separate. I completely agree that there should be animations that show if someone has a faster or more powerful strike. I've been asking for that behind the scenes for years now.

I tend to try to stay out of these sort of discussions because this is a kind of a wish list/request thing and I dont want to step on something that people may want added...especially if it isnt going to negatively affect the game. The only reason I responded was because I disagree that there is no discernable difference between Henderson's Hbomb and other overhands. Visually there isnt but the power and effect that strike has is clearly more powerful than other overhands in the LHW division.

This **** is all so subjective anyway when you are judging power and speed at a high level. Like I can say with some certainty that Ngannou's hands are more powerful than most HWs...the high ranked superstars tend to be easier. Once you go a little bit lower down the roster, it becomes harder.

Is Walt Harris' right hook slower or faster than Tai Tuivasa's? I dont know and after watching tape my opinion may be different than others simply from the eye test. Even if we all agreed that Walt's hook was faster...by how much. 1 point? 5 point? Then we have to do the same analysis for every strike and fighter. Its also duplicating work we already do with the move levels a little.

I just wonder how much it would actually add to the game (would it really add depth that was noticable to most people who buy this game) vs. the work and time it would take to get those stats rights. Its obviously easier to just group them by power and speed (fingers crossed that they will separate punch and kick this time). Keep in mind, I'm only talking about stats. I completely agree about the need for animations.

Anyway, I'll go back to lurking. You guys can go back to discussing.

[Jizamurai]

Re: More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

I wasnt addressing animations. Thats something that is separate. I completely agree that there should be animations that show if someone has a faster or more powerful strike. I've been asking for that behind the scenes for years now.



I tend to try to stay out of these sort of discussions because this is a kind of a wish list/request thing and I dont want to step on something that people may want added...especially if it isnt going to negatively affect the game. The only reason I responded was because I disagree that there is no discernable difference between Henderson's Hbomb and other overhands. Visually there isnt but the power and effect that strike has is clearly more powerful than other overhands in the LHW division.



This **** is all so subjective anyway when you are judging power and speed at a high level. Like I can say with some certainty that Ngannou's hands are more powerful than most HWs...the high ranked superstars tend to be easier. Once you go a little bit lower down the roster, it becomes harder.



Is Walt Harris' right hook slower or faster than Tai Tuivasa's? I dont know and after watching tape my opinion may be different than others simply from the eye test. Even if we all agreed that Walt's hook was faster...by how much. 1 point? 5 point? Then we have to do the same analysis for every strike and fighter. Its also duplicating work we already do with the move levels a little.



I just wonder how much it would actually add to the game (would it really add depth that was noticable to most people who buy this game) vs. the work and time it would take to get those stats rights. Its obviously easier to just group them by power and speed (fingers crossed that they will separate punch and kick this time). Keep in mind, I'm only talking about stats. I completely agree about the need for animations.



Anyway, I'll go back to lurking. You guys can go back to discussing.

The animations will make a big difference. Power and stat wise overall yeah u will have heavy weights that hit the same but how does that punch look , who lands faster, what animation covers the most distance in that split second to catch that opponent clean, does Walt Harris and tai throw that hook the same. What animation will land faster? Stat wise yes you will have a lot of fighters that maybe will have the same stats or different stats but maybe one or two are the same but like I said it will always come down to the animation and how fast the animation is , good technique vs great technique vs poor and ok technique. Not everyone punches or kicks the same. Some might hit the same but who lands. Ok ummmmm I think I’m repeating myself [emoji23] I’m glad we agree on something. Nothing should be tied in together because that defeats the purpose of different fighters different people the uniqueness. I don’t know if they will do this, I’ve been looking all over the place for a site where I can speak my mind on these things because I have lost faith in EA UFC. The bodies aren’t correct, there’s no fighter likeness down to the looks and animations and misleading career mode. They have done good things but I hope things change for the better.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

Yes, more attributes. Clinch striking stats, combo speed stats for kicks & punches separately. Basically, just copy what they had in EA MMA. Abilities have honestly been just okay, EA MMA honestly made you play to the fighter’s strengths and avoid their weaknesses than EA UFC by just having everything in ratings w/o an abilities system (and using the full numeric ratings system helps too).

One thing that’s bugged me for a while, is GNP power stats. They can actually be removed, guys with power just have power. GSP will always be given a high GNP ratings/abilities even though irl his power in stand up and GNP isn’t exactly different. I think it’s a common mistake every game has made that we’ve just been jaded to.

[aholbert32]

Re: More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

Yes, more attributes. Clinch striking stats, combo speed stats for kicks & punches separately. Basically, just copy what they had in EA MMA. Abilities have honestly been just okay, EA MMA honestly made you play to the fighter’s strengths and avoid their weaknesses than EA UFC by just having everything in ratings w/o an abilities system (and using the full numeric ratings system helps too).

One thing that’s bugged me for a while, is GNP power stats. They can actually be removed, guys with power just have power. GSP will always be given a high GNP ratings/abilities even though irl his power in stand up and GNP isn’t exactly different. I think it’s a common mistake every game has made that we’ve just been jaded to.

Thats not completely true though. Just thinking of certain classic fighters....people like Tito Ortiz ahad incredible GNP power but didnt replicate that at all when he was standing. In reverse, Chuck Liddell had incredible stand up power but not the same amount when in top control.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

Thats not completely true though. Just thinking of certain classic fighters....people like Tito Ortiz ahad incredible GNP power but didnt replicate that at all when he was standing. In reverse, Chuck Liddell had incredible stand up power but not the same amount when in top control.

But kinda like you said, top control is what really matters though. Keeping someone on the ground and wearing them out is usually what these wrestlers end up doing. Covington, Khabib, GSP, etc., all the modern grapplers I can think of really have the same power standing as they do on the ground. Most times they end up finishing with a sub. Now if a Francis (or most HWs) manages to get you on the ground, they’d likely finish if they’re still fresh but it would all depend on how good their top control is, and in Francis’ case in game, it’d be very dangerous to take any GNP from him, but easier to get up once he starts swinging since he wouldn’t have good top control.

It’s really hard for me to think of any modern wrestling heavy fighter that has more powerful GNP than they do standup. The guys you mentioned were still basically hurting guys on the ground due to the volume of punches they could throw that wouldn’t be defended, and EA MMA also had GNP speed and GNP combo speed which I think is more beneficial.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

It’s really hard for me to think of any modern wrestling heavy fighter that has more powerful GNP than they do standup.

This seems like a bit of an arbitrary restriction. I would say someone like Mark Munoz is a relatively recent example of a fighter who was primarily known for his brutal ground and pound. I feel that Frankie Edgar is another wrestler who is definitely more dangerous from top than striking. Brock Lesnar and Curtis Blaydes as well.

I would also say that some well-rounded fighters like Jon Jones, Paul Felder, Mousasi and Rory McDonald have also been historically more damaging with their ground and pound than their regular striking.

Also, I would say fighters like Chad Mendes, Woodley, Josh Koscheck and Johny Hendricks haven't really displayed ground and pound that was comparable to their stand up power.

[Haz____]

Re: More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

But kinda like you said, top control is what really matters though. Keeping someone on the ground and wearing them out is usually what these wrestlers end up doing.

Now if a Francis (or most HWs) manages to get you on the ground, they’d likely finish if they’re still fresh but it would all depend on how good their top control is.

Not necessarily true. This made me think back to Machida vs Yoel. Machida is looking damn good, then out of nowhere Yoel gets the super fast takedown, right into massive deadly elbows for the KO out of nowhere.

Yoel has barely any top control at all; he can take guys down, but can't control them on the ground, or actually hold them down. He does has insane power though.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

This seems like a bit of an arbitrary restriction. I would say someone like Mark Munoz is a relatively recent example of a fighter who was primarily known for his brutal ground and pound. I feel that Frankie Edgar is another wrestler who is definitely more dangerous from top than striking. Brock Lesnar and Curtis Blaydes as well.



I would also say that some well-rounded fighters like Jon Jones, Paul Felder, Mousasi and Rory McDonald have also been historically more damaging with their ground and pound than their regular striking.



Also, I would say fighters like Chad Mendes, Woodley, Josh Koscheck and Johny Hendricks haven't really displayed ground and pound that was comparable to their stand up power.

But those guys you mentioned don’t have more KO power with GNP compared to their stand up irl which is what the stats or perks give them. Power in these games represents KO power and they aren’t KOing too many people cold from just a few GNP shots.

GSP has a lvl 4 GNP perk which gives him 4+ power on top of his 89 power. Then we have Khabib who has a 94 power, but with his GNP perk, it goes up 3 more pts.

It’s a video gamey thing we just got used to but it’s not really a good representation of real life MMA. And they will always give these kind of abilities to wrestlers even when they don’t finish fights from GNP most times.

Top game is basically what makes these guys and the guys you mentioned dangerous and more punishing. They don’t actually have more power in GNP, the opponent is just forced to absorb more damage in those positions. Stand up power should just transfer to GNP power all the same if you really think about it. GNP speed and GNP combo speed would probably be more useful to differentiate those how are actually more effective with GNP than others.

[aholbert32]

Re: More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

But those guys you mentioned don’t have more KO power with GNP compared to their stand up irl which is what the stats or perks give them. Power in these games represents KO power and they aren’t KOing too many people cold from just a few GNP shots.

GSP has a lvl 4 GNP perk which gives him 4+ power on top of his 89 power. Then we have Khabib who has a 94 power, but with his GNP perk, it goes up 3 more pts.

It’s a video gamey thing we just got used to but it’s not really a good representation of real life MMA. And they will always give these kind of abilities to wrestlers even when they don’t finish fights from GNP most times.

Top game is basically what makes these guys and the guys you mentioned dangerous and more punishing. They don’t actually have more power in GNP, the opponent is just forced to absorb more damage in those positions. Stand up power should just transfer to GNP power all the same if you really think about it. GNP speed and GNP combo speed would probably be more useful to differentiate those how are actually more effective with GNP than others.

Id argue that Blaydes and Lesnar do. I'm still not convinced that simply because someone has GNP power that means he has the same stand up power or vice versa. That applies to some fighters but not all.

[Jizamurai]

Re: More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

I don’t believe that we should have different power stats from standing and GNP. Power is power ,left and right hand power should overall just be the same as if you’re on the ground to. Makes no sense to have different power stats when you already have power in the left and right from standing. I will say this again it’s all about the animations ,the load up or no load up , some fighters have better technique and others so the strike looks sloppy and might get there later than the other guys strike.

Yes I do agree that there should be more stats but to a certain degree but we need more animations and uniqueness in fighters. Not every fight strikes the same , they look different , land faster than others because of proper technique, some move with the strike with their head already off the certain line and more. The only reason some fighters are knocking out people on the ground other than standing up is because they have poor technique and they’re not good standing up and can’t catch an opponent clean on the feet. A grounded opponent is easier to ko since there right in front of u and u don’t have to worry about him moving to much. Power is power it’s how you use that power and Tito uses it well on the ground

[Jizamurai]

Re: More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

Also speed of speed and I don’t believe combos should be Faster just because you know how to do it but I do believe you should be able to free flow your strikes like you could in UFC 2 if you have the animations that’s it. I train and I know what I have in my arsenal and I can mix it together but I don’t get a boost in speed because i know how to do it 🤦🏽*♂️ no I develope that speed so I can tie the things I know together as it should be in the game.

No speed boost for combos , no different power stats JUST SKILL and knowing when to use that power and for god sakes do more animations for all strikes. Conor throws his left different from others and jabs different. We should have animations that already block the chin a bit with the shoulder like it’s taught , some animations should leave you open but lands faster because that’s how the animation is that’s how that person strikes because he doesn’t load up it’s more of a POP , Some should be sloppy , some should be basic , some should get your head off the center line already and more.

[Jizamurai]

Re: More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

But those guys you mentioned don’t have more KO power with GNP compared to their stand up irl which is what the stats or perks give them. Power in these games represents KO power and they aren’t KOing too many people cold from just a few GNP shots.

GSP has a lvl 4 GNP perk which gives him 4+ power on top of his 89 power. Then we have Khabib who has a 94 power, but with his GNP perk, it goes up 3 more pts.

It’s a video gamey thing we just got used to but it’s not really a good representation of real life MMA. And they will always give these kind of abilities to wrestlers even when they don’t finish fights from GNP most times.

Top game is basically what makes these guys and the guys you mentioned dangerous and more punishing. They don’t actually have more power in GNP, the opponent is just forced to absorb more damage in those positions. Stand up power should just transfer to GNP power all the same if you really think about it. GNP speed and GNP combo speed would probably be more useful to differentiate those how are actually more effective with GNP than others.

Correct it’s not that they have more power on the ground so they should get more power on the ground iit’s the fact that they already have power and they know how to use it in certain positions just not standing up. There shouldn’t be different power stats just because a guy knocks people out on the ground but not standing. Is the fact that the guy that knocks people out on the ground he doesn’t know how to time his power shots on the feet, his skill is what he needs to ko people on the feet but they are able to do it on the ground were they have you pinned and no where to go to escape that power

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

Not necessarily true. This made me think back to Machida vs Yoel. Machida is looking damn good, then out of nowhere Yoel gets the super fast takedown, right into massive deadly elbows for the KO out of nowhere.

Yoel has barely any top control at all; he can take guys down, but can't control them on the ground, or actually hold them down. He does has insane power though.

You actually bring up something I guess I decided to omit in my last post (thought I said it but musta changed my mind). But Machida’s head was upwards, off the mat. That would leave him more vulnerable to getting a KO from GNP. What happened can basically happen now, slam into side control and just throw those hammer fist or elbows, it just looks bad animation wise since the strikes are so much closer but they def do the damage in this game.

But yeah, Yoel has natural power that wouldn’t need a GNP power advantage or disadvantage and control wasn’t really needed in that case because he fired off elbows IMMEDIATELY while Machida kept his head up.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

But those guys you mentioned don’t have more KO power with GNP compared to their stand up irl which is what the stats or perks give them. Power in these games represents KO power and they aren’t KOing too many people cold from just a few GNP shots.

GSP has a lvl 4 GNP perk which gives him 4+ power on top of his 89 power. Then we have Khabib who has a 94 power, but with his GNP perk, it goes up 3 more pts.

It’s a video gamey thing we just got used to but it’s not really a good representation of real life MMA. And they will always give these kind of abilities to wrestlers even when they don’t finish fights from GNP most times.

Top game is basically what makes these guys and the guys you mentioned dangerous and more punishing. They don’t actually have more power in GNP, the opponent is just forced to absorb more damage in those positions. Stand up power should just transfer to GNP power all the same if you really think about it. GNP speed and GNP combo speed would probably be more useful to differentiate those how are actually more effective with GNP than others.

I would say that power isn't purely just one-hit KO ability but how much damage your strikes cause. I think "more power" is a relative term because yeah you cannot generate as much power with ground and pound as you can on your feet but I would still say that the guys I mentioned have landed their most devastating strikes on the ground and it should be reflected in-game somehow. I doubt anyone is suggesting that 100 ground and pound power should be equivalent to Francis Ngannou on feet.

I would say someone like Paul Felder has some of the best GNP at lightweight even though he doesn't knock people out standing or have amazing top control.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

More Stats or less stats in UFC 4 ? Let’s Discuss

I would say that power isn't purely just one-hit KO ability but how much damage your strikes cause. I think "more power" is a relative term because yeah you cannot generate as much power with ground and pound as you can on your feet but I would still say that the guys I mentioned have landed their most devastating strikes on the ground and it should be reflected in-game somehow. I doubt anyone is suggesting that 100 ground and pound power should be equivalent to Francis Ngannou on feet.



I would say someone like Paul Felder has some of the best GNP at lightweight even though he doesn't knock people out standing or have amazing top control.

But again, this fighter didn’t actually get rocked against Felder until his head was elevated and bounced off the canvas, this is the case most times. Any 2 of the following 3 factors can result in the KO from that gif; positioning, stamina, basic striking power. Average striking power should be enough to get that result, no extra perks needed.

Effectiveness of GNP just doesn’t need a separate power stat, esp when all they are going to do is give it to wrestlers no what like they been doing since MMA games began. If anything, we just need the ability to load up on a power shot or lighter but quicker shots from GNP.