Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

[Court_vision]

College Hoops is out and it seems it's better in just about everyway than the PRO game...

- IsoMotion works better / much more refined.

- Way less bugs and no game killers like the time out bug.


- Plays great out of the box, unlike NBA05 which is only 'passable' after a hell of a lot of tweaks.
- Teams play more 'realistically' to their real selves...ie, half court teams play half court / full court teams run. (In NBA 2K5, everyone runs...even Detroit and Indy).

- Better fast breaks.

- Less 'stupid' stuff like PG's taking hook shots from the top of the key.

- Player "momentum" system works much better.

Last year, CH04 was so much better than NBA04 that it wasn't even close.

It seems clear it's the same this year.

There's a fairly clear trend here that the NBA game is basically an "early BETA" that get's released laden with bugs and glitches and an "early" IsoMotion....

And College, with an extra 2 months to work on it, is the 'fixed game'.

Not just with Visual Concepts.

Look at EA Sports also...where NBA Live is killed by the lack of fast breaks. Now March Madness is out with 'fixed' fast break code.

Is it time to accept the PRO game...due to the need to 'rush' it out...is just an early BETA each year? One aimed at a more populist market (ie a lot of kids buy it also) and thus the need to just get it onto the shelves regardless...

Whilst the College games get "refined" and "fixed"...and are aimed much more at a 'purist' basketball market. Ie, people who genuinely love basketball? I know for a fact that the market is taken into account when they work on these things. Ie, College fans generally expect 'more' of a SIM (Those of us who want a hard core SIM for the PRO game are in the minority...)

I am pretty much done with the Pro games if this trend contiues. I'm not paying for early beta's each year. Whilst I can undertsand the sales logic, it's insulting to put out bugged / unfinished games each year.

The good side of all that is...the College game is light years better than the Pro's again this year, so at least we have one great basketball game out there

[KBomber]

Re: Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

Hey monkey, clean out your PM account

I think this is as close to being the game that the purists have been hoping for as we'll get. My level of excitement relative to playing this title is off the charts

Have fun..........

[KBomber]

Re: Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

Hey monkey, clean out your PM account

I think this is as close to being the game that the purists have been hoping for as we'll get. My level of excitement relative to playing this title is off the charts

Have fun..........

[jfsolo]

Re: Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

I agree 100%. Is this intentional or are the programmers on the pro teams just less talented then their college cohorts? The "pros" have been CRUSHED two years running. Maybe they're just there to get paid, but my ego and competetive sprit would have me feeling like a clown, to be working on the "A" game, but always outclassed by the "B" game.

I'm not one who leans toward conspiracy theories, but if Monkey's pro game "Beta" theory has any validity to it, then thats quite a sad state of affairs.

There is hope though. I thought Madden finally "outplayed" little brother NCAA this year for the first time since 2001. Although many would argue that it was Ncca falling down a bit as opposed to Madden ascending to great heights.(I think its a little bit of both)

[jfsolo]

Re: Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

I agree 100%. Is this intentional or are the programmers on the pro teams just less talented then their college cohorts? The "pros" have been CRUSHED two years running. Maybe they're just there to get paid, but my ego and competetive sprit would have me feeling like a clown, to be working on the "A" game, but always outclassed by the "B" game.

I'm not one who leans toward conspiracy theories, but if Monkey's pro game "Beta" theory has any validity to it, then thats quite a sad state of affairs.

There is hope though. I thought Madden finally "outplayed" little brother NCAA this year for the first time since 2001. Although many would argue that it was Ncca falling down a bit as opposed to Madden ascending to great heights.(I think its a little bit of both)

[Court_vision]

Re: Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

I'm not one who leans toward conspiracy theories, but if Monkey's pro game "Beta" theory has any validity to it, then thats quite a sad state of affairs.

It's not a conspiracy theory...I'm not into that stuff ...it's simply market reality.

The NBA game needs to be released early and the market is different. Ie, a lot more 'casual' gamers. There is a lot of pressure to get that game out. Unfortunately, it's rushed and released full of bugs. This is not a 'one off'...each of the past 3 NBA games from VC have been full of bugs. This years being the worst, ie actual game killers.

Conversely, the College games gets a couple of more months work. Thus the refinement. Thus the IsoMotion and fast breaks being hugely improved. Thus the minor annoyances 'fixed' like player momentum.

Needless to say the major annoyances like fouls and no TO's are 'fixed' also.

The dissapointing part of all this is that all the time spent on 24 / 7 etc...could / should have been spent on ironing out all these bugs / gameplay faults.

Unfortunately, VC feels like the NBA market needs gimmicks like 24 / 7 and spends (wastes) a lot of time on it.

The College game...they just concentrate on the purist elements of basketball.

There's not a lot I / you / we can do about this. It's just the reality of the different markets.

I've heard a lot of positive things about NBA 2K6....things that really would take it to a whole new level...and, if those occur, maybe we'll finally get a decent PRO game...For now though, the College game is just a hell of a lot better / fixed / smoother / smarter.

K Bomber...just cleaned my PM's out. Didn't realise it was so full...apologies to anyone who has tried to PM me

[Court_vision]

Re: Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

I'm not one who leans toward conspiracy theories, but if Monkey's pro game "Beta" theory has any validity to it, then thats quite a sad state of affairs.

It's not a conspiracy theory...I'm not into that stuff ...it's simply market reality.

The NBA game needs to be released early and the market is different. Ie, a lot more 'casual' gamers. There is a lot of pressure to get that game out. Unfortunately, it's rushed and released full of bugs. This is not a 'one off'...each of the past 3 NBA games from VC have been full of bugs. This years being the worst, ie actual game killers.

Conversely, the College games gets a couple of more months work. Thus the refinement. Thus the IsoMotion and fast breaks being hugely improved. Thus the minor annoyances 'fixed' like player momentum.

Needless to say the major annoyances like fouls and no TO's are 'fixed' also.

The dissapointing part of all this is that all the time spent on 24 / 7 etc...could / should have been spent on ironing out all these bugs / gameplay faults.

Unfortunately, VC feels like the NBA market needs gimmicks like 24 / 7 and spends (wastes) a lot of time on it.

The College game...they just concentrate on the purist elements of basketball.

There's not a lot I / you / we can do about this. It's just the reality of the different markets.

I've heard a lot of positive things about NBA 2K6....things that really would take it to a whole new level...and, if those occur, maybe we'll finally get a decent PRO game...For now though, the College game is just a hell of a lot better / fixed / smoother / smarter.

K Bomber...just cleaned my PM's out. Didn't realise it was so full...apologies to anyone who has tried to PM me

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

I'm hoping to pick up the college game this evening. You say you understand the logic from a sales perspective, but you're not expressing it at all. The economic reality is that people want games NOW - games that come out considerably later than a game they're in direct competition with put themselves at a serious disadvantage. Let's say VC held the pro title an additional two months, just releasing the game today. Most people that wanted a basketball game would've gotten NBA Live by now. The game would've garnered no where NEAR the attention it's received so far. Perhaps the few of you would "respect VC more" by holding out to put. But respect doesn't put food in a family's mouth, so to speak.

You also have to admit that the criticisms the pro game has received undoubtably helped the college game; you guys would've ROASTED them had they released the title with similiar issues. Can we say for sure that the issues found with the pro game would've been known by the developers? And the game has been out for two days. I'm sure the sim-nazis will begin to find flaws in the title, and possibly blow those out of proportion. People are so quick to label something as a "gamekiller" it's ridiculous.

Personally, I'm enjoying NBA2k5 immensely. I'm 8-8 with the Wizards in my Association. I haven't had any ridiculous trades, or any outlandish stat issues. I love the game. Sure, I'd love for the game to be more refined - that will always be the case with games. But I think most developers would tell you, the one thing they would love to have more of is TIME. Even on the Halo extras dvd, the developers all said they wanted more time - and they were developing that game for three years, with no direct competitor. If it were strictly a developer situation, they would've chosen to hold their game. But you have producers that realize time is money, and the more time you give your competition, the more you put yourself at a disadvantage. It's simple business logic. They could hold the game until next February, and have it be as close to perfect as it'll get. But they'd sell a lot less units. You sell less, the more likely it'll be that you won't be in business very long.

The fact is, most gamers don't have the high expectations that many hardcore gamers have. Like I said, I'm enjoying the game a ton. I don't make the problems with the game bother me to the point where it makes the game unplayable to me, as some of you have. You shouldn't try to paint the game as some unplayable mess.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

I'm hoping to pick up the college game this evening. You say you understand the logic from a sales perspective, but you're not expressing it at all. The economic reality is that people want games NOW - games that come out considerably later than a game they're in direct competition with put themselves at a serious disadvantage. Let's say VC held the pro title an additional two months, just releasing the game today. Most people that wanted a basketball game would've gotten NBA Live by now. The game would've garnered no where NEAR the attention it's received so far. Perhaps the few of you would "respect VC more" by holding out to put. But respect doesn't put food in a family's mouth, so to speak.

You also have to admit that the criticisms the pro game has received undoubtably helped the college game; you guys would've ROASTED them had they released the title with similiar issues. Can we say for sure that the issues found with the pro game would've been known by the developers? And the game has been out for two days. I'm sure the sim-nazis will begin to find flaws in the title, and possibly blow those out of proportion. People are so quick to label something as a "gamekiller" it's ridiculous.

Personally, I'm enjoying NBA2k5 immensely. I'm 8-8 with the Wizards in my Association. I haven't had any ridiculous trades, or any outlandish stat issues. I love the game. Sure, I'd love for the game to be more refined - that will always be the case with games. But I think most developers would tell you, the one thing they would love to have more of is TIME. Even on the Halo extras dvd, the developers all said they wanted more time - and they were developing that game for three years, with no direct competitor. If it were strictly a developer situation, they would've chosen to hold their game. But you have producers that realize time is money, and the more time you give your competition, the more you put yourself at a disadvantage. It's simple business logic. They could hold the game until next February, and have it be as close to perfect as it'll get. But they'd sell a lot less units. You sell less, the more likely it'll be that you won't be in business very long.

The fact is, most gamers don't have the high expectations that many hardcore gamers have. Like I said, I'm enjoying the game a ton. I don't make the problems with the game bother me to the point where it makes the game unplayable to me, as some of you have. You shouldn't try to paint the game as some unplayable mess.

[Court_vision]

Re: Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

I'm hoping to pick up the college game this evening. You say you understand the logic from a sales perspective, but you're not expressing it at all. The economic reality is that people want games NOW - games that come out considerably later than a game they're in direct competition with put themselves at a serious disadvantage. Let's say VC held the pro title an additional two months, just releasing the game today. Most people that wanted a basketball game would've gotten NBA Live by now. The game would've garnered no where NEAR the attention it's received so far. Perhaps the few of you would "respect VC more" by holding out to put. But respect doesn't put food in a family's mouth, so to speak.

You also have to admit that the criticisms the pro game has received undoubtably helped the college game; you guys would've ROASTED them had they released the title with similiar issues. Can we say for sure that the issues found with the pro game would've been known by the developers? And the game has been out for two days. I'm sure the sim-nazis will begin to find flaws in the title, and possibly blow those out of proportion. People are so quick to label something as a "gamekiller" it's ridiculous.

Personally, I'm enjoying NBA2k5 immensely. I'm 8-8 with the Wizards in my Association. I haven't had any ridiculous trades, or any outlandish stat issues. I love the game. Sure, I'd love for the game to be more refined - that will always be the case with games. But I think most developers would tell you, the one thing they would love to have more of is TIME. Even on the Halo extras dvd, the developers all said they wanted more time - and they were developing that game for three years, with no direct competitor. If it were strictly a developer situation, they would've chosen to hold their game. But you have producers that realize time is money, and the more time you give your competition, the more you put yourself at a disadvantage. It's simple business logic. They could hold the game until next February, and have it be as close to perfect as it'll get. But they'd sell a lot less units. You sell less, the more likely it'll be that you won't be in business very long.

The fact is, most gamers don't have the high expectations that many hardcore gamers have. Like I said, I'm enjoying the game a ton. I don't make the problems with the game bother me to the point where it makes the game unplayable to me, as some of you have. You shouldn't try to paint the game as some unplayable mess.

I didn't label it that...i said it's a "early BETA"...which it is.

Yes, ESPN NBA had to release at the same time as LIVE.

Yes, economic reality dictated that.

At least one month of production time was spent on 24 / 7...would you rather smoother IsoMotion, better fast breaks, no TO bug, more post moves...Or 24 / 7?

Because, VC feels the NBA market (ie a lot of kids) needs something like 24 / 7 included. That gets 'priority'.

Anyways, I'm glad your enjoying it spankdatazz. It's by no means a horrible game...but there's living proof right now in College Hoops 05 that the NBA game could (should) have been a hell of a lot better

Side note :yes, we can say for sure the "issues" mentioned were known by the developers. These guys aren't idiots man. They make the games...they are basketball people!...they do notice there's a lack of fouls and no time outs. Do you honestly think these guys, who are basketball fans, don't notice a lack of fouls? Come on now...

[Court_vision]

Re: Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

I'm hoping to pick up the college game this evening. You say you understand the logic from a sales perspective, but you're not expressing it at all. The economic reality is that people want games NOW - games that come out considerably later than a game they're in direct competition with put themselves at a serious disadvantage. Let's say VC held the pro title an additional two months, just releasing the game today. Most people that wanted a basketball game would've gotten NBA Live by now. The game would've garnered no where NEAR the attention it's received so far. Perhaps the few of you would "respect VC more" by holding out to put. But respect doesn't put food in a family's mouth, so to speak.

You also have to admit that the criticisms the pro game has received undoubtably helped the college game; you guys would've ROASTED them had they released the title with similiar issues. Can we say for sure that the issues found with the pro game would've been known by the developers? And the game has been out for two days. I'm sure the sim-nazis will begin to find flaws in the title, and possibly blow those out of proportion. People are so quick to label something as a "gamekiller" it's ridiculous.

Personally, I'm enjoying NBA2k5 immensely. I'm 8-8 with the Wizards in my Association. I haven't had any ridiculous trades, or any outlandish stat issues. I love the game. Sure, I'd love for the game to be more refined - that will always be the case with games. But I think most developers would tell you, the one thing they would love to have more of is TIME. Even on the Halo extras dvd, the developers all said they wanted more time - and they were developing that game for three years, with no direct competitor. If it were strictly a developer situation, they would've chosen to hold their game. But you have producers that realize time is money, and the more time you give your competition, the more you put yourself at a disadvantage. It's simple business logic. They could hold the game until next February, and have it be as close to perfect as it'll get. But they'd sell a lot less units. You sell less, the more likely it'll be that you won't be in business very long.

The fact is, most gamers don't have the high expectations that many hardcore gamers have. Like I said, I'm enjoying the game a ton. I don't make the problems with the game bother me to the point where it makes the game unplayable to me, as some of you have. You shouldn't try to paint the game as some unplayable mess.

I didn't label it that...i said it's a "early BETA"...which it is.

Yes, ESPN NBA had to release at the same time as LIVE.

Yes, economic reality dictated that.

At least one month of production time was spent on 24 / 7...would you rather smoother IsoMotion, better fast breaks, no TO bug, more post moves...Or 24 / 7?

Because, VC feels the NBA market (ie a lot of kids) needs something like 24 / 7 included. That gets 'priority'.

Anyways, I'm glad your enjoying it spankdatazz. It's by no means a horrible game...but there's living proof right now in College Hoops 05 that the NBA game could (should) have been a hell of a lot better

Side note :yes, we can say for sure the "issues" mentioned were known by the developers. These guys aren't idiots man. They make the games...they are basketball people!...they do notice there's a lack of fouls and no time outs. Do you honestly think these guys, who are basketball fans, don't notice a lack of fouls? Come on now...

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

Side note :yes, we can say for sure the "issues" mentioned were known by the developers. These guys aren't idiots man. They make the games...they are basketball people!...they do notice there's a lack of fouls and no time outs. Do you honestly think these guys, who are basketball fans, don't notice a lack of fouls? Come on now...

Perhaps they did. But then, the decision at some point had to be made - how much of an issue is it versus how much of a disadvantage does it put us from a competition standpoint? There are wars going on between developers and publishers on release dates all the time... There are tons of articles coming out about the state of the gaming industry and working conditions. These guys work put in up to 80hours a week as a game gets close to release. Of course they'd want more time to finish a title, but often the economics of the situation don't allow for that freedom.

In the end, it's us, the game buyers, that dictate this focus on short development times and release dates. If people wouldn't run out and buy the first game out as much as they do, then developers wouldn't have the pressure to finish a game with the time constraints they're forced to live with.

Blaming VC (or any other developer) for our game buying habits doesn't make much sense to me. If EA held March Madness for another two months, would that automatically mean it'll be better than College Hoops? Of course not. Those of us that work don't have the freedom to be our own bosses. If something needs to be done now, we don't often have the freedom to say it'll be done later.

I'm thankful VC released College Hoops and so far it's pleasing some of the more difficult to please. Unfortunately, it's only a matter of time before imperfections are found. You can find problems with anything if you look at it long enough. I wonder where the praise will go then?

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

Side note :yes, we can say for sure the "issues" mentioned were known by the developers. These guys aren't idiots man. They make the games...they are basketball people!...they do notice there's a lack of fouls and no time outs. Do you honestly think these guys, who are basketball fans, don't notice a lack of fouls? Come on now...

Perhaps they did. But then, the decision at some point had to be made - how much of an issue is it versus how much of a disadvantage does it put us from a competition standpoint? There are wars going on between developers and publishers on release dates all the time... There are tons of articles coming out about the state of the gaming industry and working conditions. These guys work put in up to 80hours a week as a game gets close to release. Of course they'd want more time to finish a title, but often the economics of the situation don't allow for that freedom.

In the end, it's us, the game buyers, that dictate this focus on short development times and release dates. If people wouldn't run out and buy the first game out as much as they do, then developers wouldn't have the pressure to finish a game with the time constraints they're forced to live with.

Blaming VC (or any other developer) for our game buying habits doesn't make much sense to me. If EA held March Madness for another two months, would that automatically mean it'll be better than College Hoops? Of course not. Those of us that work don't have the freedom to be our own bosses. If something needs to be done now, we don't often have the freedom to say it'll be done later.

I'm thankful VC released College Hoops and so far it's pleasing some of the more difficult to please. Unfortunately, it's only a matter of time before imperfections are found. You can find problems with anything if you look at it long enough. I wonder where the praise will go then?

[NINJAK2]

Re: Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

I didn't label it that...i said it's a "early BETA"...which it is.

Yes, ESPN NBA had to release at the same time as LIVE.

Yes, economic reality dictated that.

At least one month of production time was spent on 24 / 7...would you rather smoother IsoMotion, better fast breaks, no TO bug, more post moves...Or 24 / 7?

Because, VC feels the NBA market (ie a lot of kids) needs something like 24 / 7 included. That gets 'priority'.

Anyways, I'm glad your enjoying it spankdatazz. It's by no means a horrible game...but there's living proof right now in College Hoops 05 that the NBA game could (should) have been a hell of a lot better

Side note :yes, we can say for sure the "issues" mentioned were known by the developers. These guys aren't idiots man. They make the games...they are basketball people!...they do notice there's a lack of fouls and no time outs. Do you honestly think these guys, who are basketball fans, don't notice a lack of fouls? Come on now...

I have no doubts that 2k6 will be the best yet in the 2k series and contrary to your beliefs I believe 2k5 is above being a DESCENT pro game monk-Come on! Perfect? Heck no! A vast improvement over previous titles in the series? Mos def. NBA had to go from simcade to sim in less than a year. Choops went from sim to refined sim and that transition is a heck of a lot easier to accomplish imo. NBA went though an identity crisis. Choops has always played to their strengths and has never lost sight of who they are and what they want to portray to the public. NBA chased the dollars and strayed away from what made them and now they are going back to their roots.

Do you see how many people complain or say they will buy the competition's product if the title doesn't come out early enough? Come out early with flaws and gain market share or come out later w/ less flaws(no matter when these sports games come out they will have some oddities) and potentially lose it?

Let's not forget that CHoops had an extra 2 months to address the problems with the 2k5 engine and tweak it to near perfection. It's like if you are told to build a car from the bottom up while the other person is told to simply "pimp the ride" that you created with an extra time frame to correct your mistakes.
Choops 2k4 pimped the nba 2k3 car and now 2k5 pimped out the nba 2k4/5 car.

I also believe you are right when you say that the majority of fans of each sport have different needs. In college sports it's more about the love of the school/program and authenticity is way more important. NBA video game fans (casual which I feel makes up the majority) care more about the individuals of the game and the exciting aspects and less about the intricacies.

I mean you no disrespect monkey.

[NINJAK2]

Re: Bad trend here with the College game...RIP NBA 2K5

I didn't label it that...i said it's a "early BETA"...which it is.

Yes, ESPN NBA had to release at the same time as LIVE.

Yes, economic reality dictated that.

At least one month of production time was spent on 24 / 7...would you rather smoother IsoMotion, better fast breaks, no TO bug, more post moves...Or 24 / 7?

Because, VC feels the NBA market (ie a lot of kids) needs something like 24 / 7 included. That gets 'priority'.

Anyways, I'm glad your enjoying it spankdatazz. It's by no means a horrible game...but there's living proof right now in College Hoops 05 that the NBA game could (should) have been a hell of a lot better

Side note :yes, we can say for sure the "issues" mentioned were known by the developers. These guys aren't idiots man. They make the games...they are basketball people!...they do notice there's a lack of fouls and no time outs. Do you honestly think these guys, who are basketball fans, don't notice a lack of fouls? Come on now...

I have no doubts that 2k6 will be the best yet in the 2k series and contrary to your beliefs I believe 2k5 is above being a DESCENT pro game monk-Come on! Perfect? Heck no! A vast improvement over previous titles in the series? Mos def. NBA had to go from simcade to sim in less than a year. Choops went from sim to refined sim and that transition is a heck of a lot easier to accomplish imo. NBA went though an identity crisis. Choops has always played to their strengths and has never lost sight of who they are and what they want to portray to the public. NBA chased the dollars and strayed away from what made them and now they are going back to their roots.

Do you see how many people complain or say they will buy the competition's product if the title doesn't come out early enough? Come out early with flaws and gain market share or come out later w/ less flaws(no matter when these sports games come out they will have some oddities) and potentially lose it?

Let's not forget that CHoops had an extra 2 months to address the problems with the 2k5 engine and tweak it to near perfection. It's like if you are told to build a car from the bottom up while the other person is told to simply "pimp the ride" that you created with an extra time frame to correct your mistakes.
Choops 2k4 pimped the nba 2k3 car and now 2k5 pimped out the nba 2k4/5 car.

I also believe you are right when you say that the majority of fans of each sport have different needs. In college sports it's more about the love of the school/program and authenticity is way more important. NBA video game fans (casual which I feel makes up the majority) care more about the individuals of the game and the exciting aspects and less about the intricacies.

I mean you no disrespect monkey.