Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

[papinho81]

Recently, we discovered that we, as game users, we can modify the default ATTACK/DEFENSE level the CPU is starting a game with. You know, it is the small coloured bar that can be BLUE, GREEN (default for us as a USER), ORANGE. With the game development it can sometimes become DARK BLUE (CPU defending a win or a tie) or even RED (CPU needing to score by any mean for whatever the reason).


The problem:
This little bar has long been a source of frustration for many PES 2017 gamers. Konami, possibly driven by the intention of providing gamers entertaining end to end games (REF: Jim Beglin commentary in the game) decided to assign to the majority of teams in the game the rather extreme configuration ORANGE/BLUE.

This decision, intentional or not, has been very effective at making games really end to end as ORANGE in attack seems to lead to very aggressive and rather direct offensive mind (needs further exploration and better description) while BLUE in defence lead to midfielder dropping in numbers in front of their defensive line. As the change between an ATTACK attitude and a DEFENCE attitude occurs instantly, when a team loose possession (ATT-->DEF) or regain possession (DEF-->ATT) the ORANGE/BLUE configuration as led players controlled by the CPU to be caught in the very schizophrenic attitude of projecting in attack as quickly as possible then projecting as quickly as possible in defence.

To the disenchantment of many players, this type of oppositely minded behavior has led to the scarcity/absence of midfield battle, which is for many football fans a very important component of this sport. This is because CPU players tend to retreat too quickly in their defensive half/third, with little interest in regaining the ball upper on the pitch.


Solutions:
I recently found that by copying the tactical formation from one team to another the team that received the tactic (paste) would also inherit the default ATTACK/DEFENSE levels from the reference team (copy) simply using the SAVE/LOAD options in Game Plan, Data Management. The drawback of this approach is that you have to know what team have the ATTACK/DEFENSE level you are looking for. This information can also be accessed for PC users using a team editor tool such as DINO editor as the default ATTACK/DEFENSE levels seems to correspond to the “Numbers in attack/Numbers in defence” (Few/Med/Many) that was editable by the gamer in previous version edition of the game but not in 2017 copies despite being visible with editor tools.

In parallel, Matt10 found that you can also change ATTACK/DEFENSE level of any team going to Support Settings --> Go to simple tactics --> Simple tactic settings finally choosing among the various simple tactics available each of them corresponding to a particular ATTACK/DEFENSE level that Matt mapped already. You can find the full instruction on how to do that on his youtube video:

Spoiler

We need you:
So now we know we can change and how to change the default ATTACK/DEFENSE of teams, but we are left with 9 possible configurations that we need to understand in order to use them wisely when making a particular team tactic.

The goal of this thread is to try describing and understanding these various ATTACK/DEFENSE configurations. How it affects players positioning, players aggressiveness, team cohesion,ect…?
Do the ATTACK and DEFENSE levels can be treated independently or do they interact? How? ect?

Ultimately this exploratory work should improve our decision making when we want to assign a default ATTACK/DEFENSE level to a particular team, whether it is a possession team or counter attack team (or any kind of variation).

Please share your thoughts, feelings, evidences and experience with the various ATTACK/DEFENSE levels.



Here is where you can find each of the 9 possible configurations to compare using the SAVE/LOAD solution.
(Legend: Orange-->O, Green-->G, Blue-->B; ATTACK/DEFENSE):

O/O:--> Brazil, Chili, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Cameroon,
Montpellier... (It is not very common for club)
O/G:--> Barcelona, Fiorentina, Lazio, Betis Seville ,Mexico, Japan...
O/B: Every single Premier League team and many other:
--> Real Madrid, PSG, Benfica, Porto, Schalke, Inter, AC Milan ect...

G/O: Colombia, USA (extremely rare)
G/G: Real Sociedad, Dortmund, Many European national teams such as Germany, Italy, France, England, ect...
G/B: Espanyol Barcelona, Celta Vigo, Chievo Verona, Roda JC...

B/O: ID:2293 (several fake teams)
B/G: Mallorca, Koln (Id:199), Zurich (ID:1386), ID:2255, ID:2348, (Lot of fake teams)
B/B: Monaco, Marseille, Sevilla, Greece, Portugal...

Should we take the scarcity/absence of B/O and B/G in "real teams" as an indication of their anomalies?

[DirtyCobra]

Fantastic thread. Very interesting to see How this will work.

[Tinker]

I couldn't play PES for several days, but it seems today I will, so.. I would like to see how G/G, G/O and O/O plays as that would, at least theoretically, seem to be most balanced settings.

[papinho81]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tinker

I couldn't play PES for several days, but it seems today I will, so.. I would like to see how G/G, G/O and O/O plays as that would, at least theoretically, seem to be most balanced settings.

Please do mate! The more people we get involved the faster, we will come to a consensus (if possible of course).

It would be nice to see if some configurations are always superior to others.
For example it is quite obvious that O/O makes everything more intense to use Matt words. But does it also expose the team to through balls and/or quick counter attack?

Also as you mentioned in the impression thread, and if the "Numbers in attack"/"Numbers in defense" correspond to the attack levels (I have no doubt it does), klashman tutorial is a may be a good starting point.

http://klashman69.blogspot.ch/2015/0...-tutorial.html

[papinho81]

Here are two short videos comparing the positioning of side midfielders on replays.

Blue/Bue:

Spoiler

Orange/Orange:

Spoiler

On the first video the SMF is following the man with the ball while trying to reach its defensive position which seems to force the FB to step up.
In the second video the two SMF are following the the defensive situation from some distance and we clearly see them stopping their run before reaching their defensive third. In this particular case they might have stop because their seeing the keeper is getting the ball.
But in many other instance I have seen the SMF with O/O getting involved in the last third only when the defensive situation last for some time.


In this second set of video we see pretty much the same situation once with Blue/Blue and once with Orange/Orange

B/B:

Spoiler

O/O:

Spoiler

In the B/B video the midfielder try to resist but their retreat instinct is stronger, the CAM makes a double hesitation, he steps up but as soon as he realizes the CF will do the job he retreats.
In the O/O video they also seem to want to go back but there is 3 men keeping their high position, also the others are concerned about where the ball is played almost ready to jump to make an interception. Seeing they can do nothing they retreat and Cervi goes to mark its man.



Also on B/B Benfica defense often formed a line with 6 men involved in defense. This never happened when I played them in G/G or O/O.
Finally, Benfica possession and pass accuracy stats increased with warmer colors, B/B having particularly low possession stats.
Sometimes I feel like cpu build up is calmer on G/G but it also send the ball back from time to time on O/O.

Overall B/B felt particularly weak compared to G/G and O/O. I am not sure if O/O is superior to G/G.



As a summary I would say that:

B/B seems to suit a very defensive play style with little interest in getting the ball and a strong will to have numbers to get a compact defensive block.

G/G: seems to me quite balanced. It might suit team that do not have particularly marked offensive or defensive styles.

O/O: many players are getting involved in the offensive play and the pressing high up pitch (particularly striking on free kicks, the SMFs mark your FBs). I didn't find yet any particular weakness in defense. It might suit well very offensive teams that make use of the gegenpress.

[Tinker]

That's very detailed!

Could it be that B/B should be reserved for defensive teams that have Long ball attacking style? Otherwise with Short pass they would pass the ball in their half without much attacking intentions.

I remember putting attacking numbers to Few in PES2015 and having short pass was a no no: AI players would just kick the ball among themselves.

[papinho81]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tinker

That's very detailed! Could it be that B/B should be reserved for defensive teams that have Long ball attacking style? Otherwise with Short pass they would pass the ball in their half without much attacking intentions. I remember putting attacking numbers to Few in PES2015 and having short pass was a no no: AI players would just kick the ball among themselves.

Actually, despite I had them set as a possession team Benfica attempted several time long balls to their attackers. I didn't see them passing more the ball at the back.
So yeah, it could suit Long ball teams such as Sunderland or Burnley.

Of course it needs more testing.

I am streaming, testing Monaco with G/O, if you want to join:
https://www.twitch.tv/papinho811/videos/all

Edit:
Really liked what I have seen from Monaco on G/O. It suits well their style of play with a high press but not necessarily sending a high numbers of players forward.

[papinho81]

On the continuity of the test I did with Monaco, I tried G/O for Barca but it was not working well. FBs took too much time to join the attack as did the CM leading to a Barca without tooth and depth in their play. I then switched them to O/O and it was wayyyyyyy better. You can have a look at it on my archived video on twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/131794786
Barca on O/O starts around 1:40:00.