Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

[CRMosier_LM]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

That's what I'm talking about and that's what the live NFL game video shows. My argument is that show blitz should do exactly like the live games ONLY move the guys that will be blitzing rather than bringing everyone in the box. The reason I don't like it bringing everyone in the box is because then Quarters, Dollar become great run defenses against anything. Secondly as far as the blitzing personnel on many plays it moves them out of position and away from the area the play has them attacking and then game does not have smooth turn animations to get them back to those spots. Thus the movement should not be general like it is now, it should be movement that gets them in position to attack the area they should be attacking. Methinks you misunderstood my post.

Exactly, methinks I shouldn't be on OS when I have been up for 22 hours

I still don't want the limitation of not having non-blitzing players coming up to the line, not to set up some crazy blitz... But just for the sake of realism. I love to be able to have my safety up near the line to show blitz only to have him drop into coverage while the opposite side of the field is where the heat is coming from. It forces the offense to decide which way to shift their line, if they guess wrong the are screwed.

I do however understand the quarter and dollar reference.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

[brza37]

I think there needs to be more options than just "Show Blitz". You should have the option to bluff an all out blitz like it is now (I think what CR is saying.) You should also have the option to creep the actual blitzers so that they are moving at the snap but not just standing in the holes motionless (like what LB is saying). Then you should also have the option to bluff just a few blitzers so that its not an obvious giveaway when you creep fewer blitzers than in the normal "Show Blitz" look.

The user should be able to choose whether the players who creep in this 3rd option are just random for those that want to set up the look quickly or to choose who should creep on an individual basis so you can actually give the same look as some of your real blitzes.

EDIT: Sorry I should read the full posts before posting myself and not just skimming through things. I guess baller already suggested this, lol.

[Big FN Deal]

I definitely agree with the concept of each player having predetermined primary and secondary AI moves, which could seemingly be achieved by adding tons of pass rush technique animations and giving each player access to various sets based on ratings. Also, having tiered versions of each technique so they fit players according to ratings. For example, four different levels of swim moves animations, poor, average, good, great.

Also, not just for the blitz but for pass rush and even receivers coming off the LOS, they all need to "explode off the snap". The more I actually focus on the game play in Madden, CPU/AI controlled players do not hustle and the only way to get them to is by User sprint, which may cause some CPU/AI players to speed up in pursuit. I just can;t understand with all the hoopla about SPD being the dominant rating, why CPU/AI players don't utilize it off the ball.

I reference to show blitz, like with audibles and no huddle/hurry up, the premise in Madden of all personnel accomplishing it uniform, has got to go. There needs to be more accounting for how well the particular personnel on the field perform these actions. Not every player should have the same capability, for example, to run up towards the LOS, then back out at the last minute and get back in proper position. Also, similar to what LBz was saying, not every defender should be moving around and there should not be the capability of free lancing "show blitz" on every defensive play. Imo, there should be actual plays in the defensive playbooks that have "show blitz" drawn up. Meaning, in a defensive playbooks, every or some plays have modified versions of the same play with show blitz, disguise coverage, etc predesigned, like tiered play calling but for entire plays instead of individual layers. That way this stuff it represented as being practiced and calling these things would be handled on the sideline, instead of at the LOS.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I definitely agree with the concept of each player having predetermined primary and secondary AI moves, which could seemingly be achieved by adding tons of pass rush technique animations and giving each player access to various sets based on ratings. Also, having tiered versions of each technique so they fit players according to ratings. For example, four different levels of swim moves animations, poor, average, good, great. Also, not just for the blitz but for pass rush and even receivers coming off the LOS, they all need to "explode off the snap". The more I actually focus on the game play in Madden, CPU/AI controlled players do not hustle and the only way to get them to is by User sprint, which may cause some CPU/AI players to speed up in pursuit. I just can;t understand with all the hoopla about SPD being the dominant rating, why CPU/AI players don't utilize it off the ball. I reference to show blitz, like with audibles and no huddle/hurry up, the premise in Madden of all personnel accomplishing it uniform, has got to go. There needs to be more accounting for how well the particular personnel on the field perform these actions. Not every player should have the same capability, for example, to run up towards the LOS, then back out at the last minute and get back in proper position. Also, similar to what LBz was saying, not every defender should be moving around and there should not be the capability of free lancing "show blitz" on every defensive play. Imo, there should be actual plays in the defensive playbooks that have "show blitz" drawn up. Meaning, in a defensive playbooks, every or some plays have modified versions of the same play with show blitz, disguise coverage, etc predesigned, like tiered play calling but for entire plays instead of individual layers. That way this stuff it represented as being practiced and calling these things would be handled on the sideline, instead of at the LOS.

Big, I was having a discussion with guys the other night and we were talking about the decision to go with short branching animations and the whole one sequence win/loss thing. With my argument for having a primary and secondary pass rush move and the short branching system do you think they would do best to chain together one or more win/loss branch points? That's what might screw this up. In 2k8 it was easier to do this because of the long animations. It is still a win/loss in 2k8 but because of the long animations it is easy for a guy to switch to the secondary pass rush move and it look fluid as hell.

I also agree about the drawn up plays that have defenders bluffing. The playbook should be the tool that provides the framework for everything. Just thinking about the current playbooks where we have plays like



This type of play should serve as a basis for the rest. This has the linebackers already lined up in the A gaps and that's fine. We should also have plays where they "SHOW IT." To me a play like Sugar Cover 3 Bluff is what in defensive football is called "Showing Blitz." Several Madden plays already have this: Sugar 3 Seam, Sugar Blitz. Those three plays all SHOW Blitz and that's fine. There are some blitzes that should be that way. What we do not have and what we need are TIMED Blitzes. Plays like Nickel 335 3 Overload Fire should be timed; 245 Overload 3 seam ect all should be timed blitzes.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Big, I was having a discussion with guys the other night and we were talking about the decision to go with short branching animations and the whole one sequence win/loss thing. With my argument for having a primary and secondary pass rush move and the short branching system do you think they would do best to chain together one or more win/loss branch points? That's what might screw this up. In 2k8 it was easier to do this because of the long animations. It is still a win/loss in 2k8 but because of the long animations it is easy for a guy to switch to the secondary pass rush move and it look fluid as hell. I also agree about the drawn up plays that have defenders bluffing. The playbook should be the tool that provides the framework for everything. Just thinking about the current playbooks where we have plays like This type of play should serve as a basis for the rest. This has the linebackers already lined up in the A gaps and that's fine. We should also have plays where they "SHOW IT." To me a play like Sugar Cover 3 Bluff is what in defensive football is called "Showing Blitz." Several Madden plays already have this: Sugar 3 Seam, Sugar Blitz. Those three plays all SHOW Blitz and that's fine. There are some blitzes that should be that way. What we do not have and what we need are TIMED Blitzes. Plays like Nickel 335 3 Overload Fire should be timed; 245 Overload 3 seam ect all should be timed blitzes.

As far as animations, it seems to me the key would be having a "gather" or reset animation that serves as a universal transition to the secondary move. Like with branching from a spin move to a juke, there still is that transitional bridge or at least there should be, to make it look reasonably realistic. They either need an individual transitional animation to branch into before branching to the secondary move or have all these moves animated in such a way that branching from anyone to another is reasonably seamless, no matter the combination.

Matter of fact, have a "stone walled" type animation as the beginning point for every secondary move. So those people mo' capping each move would do a second version, starting from a stoned walled position. That way every move is capable of being the primary or secondary move, with a seamless transition. I hope I explained that so it makes sense. lol

Also, thanks for posting that play and that's exactly what I was referring to, basically having different defense "looks" for each play, in the playbooks. The difficulty with timed blitzes in Madden is that would have to be AI based, using individual defenders AWR or something, right? It's highly possible I don't completely understand timed blitzes but I thought the concept applied to all blitzes, in the sense of how well a defender synchronizes their blitz with the snap.

[shttymcgee]

I agree that it would be nice to have certain defenders move pre-snap to try to time up the blitz. I do also think that you should have the option to show an all-out blitz similar to the one that is currently implemented, but not aligning defenders in completely unsound positions when their specific assignments conflict with the show blitz option.

All in all, the pass protection logic is very screwed up and has been for quite some time (I really can't remember a time when it wasn't). Most of the time, 5 man pressures should be able to be blocked by 6 man protections (your video showed only 5 man pro's), overloads or not, but not by sliding the un-rushed tackle across the formation. Those OL should all move together towards the outside rusher.

On a side note, I really hope that the NCAA demo is not too much of a prognosticator for what Madden is going to be (NCAA too, for that matter). I played about 3 quarters of one game before I had seen all I could handle. When I was on offense, I could pretty much shred the defense just running 4 vert variations with no hot-routing/assignment changes. Two consecutive plays when I was on defense broke the camels back: the AI QB through a ball into double coverage down the sideline, my safety (AI controlled) took a path that would have been good if the ball would have literally been overthrown by 30 yards. Then the CPU ran an option play in which the pitch man came to a complete stop and then reversed his field on the pitch, losing about 10 yards. There's no place for things like this...

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

As far as animations, it seems to me the key would be having a "gather" or reset animation that serves as a universal transition to the secondary move. Like with branching from a spin move to a juke, there still is that transitional bridge or at least there should be, to make it look reasonably realistic. They either need an individual transitional animation to branch into before branching to the secondary move or have all these moves animated in such a way that branching from anyone to another is reasonably seamless, no matter the combination. Matter of fact, have a "stone walled" type animation as the beginning point for every secondary move. So those people mo' capping each move would do a second version, starting from a stoned walled position. That way every move is capable of being the primary or secondary move, with a seamless transition. I hope I explained that so it makes sense. lol Also, thanks for posting that play and that's exactly what I was referring to, basically having different defense "looks" for each play, in the playbooks. The difficulty with timed blitzes in Madden is that would have to be AI based, using individual defenders AWR or something, right? It's highly possible I don't completely understand timed blitzes but I thought the concept applied to all blitzes, in the sense of how well a defender synchronizes their blitz with the snap.

Big to the second point, the "stone walled" animation, I think that's where that bounce could come in. Rather than the bounce serving as the means to initial contact, that could be the transition to the secondary pass rush move.

With the timed blitzes, that's why I advocated show blitz the way I did. Rather than the timing strictly be A.I controlled, it comes under user control. I tell them when to move.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

I agree that it would be nice to have certain defenders move pre-snap to try to time up the blitz. I do also think that you should have the option to show an all-out blitz similar to the one that is currently implemented, but not aligning defenders in completely unsound positions when their specific assignments conflict with the show blitz option. All in all, the pass protection logic is very screwed up and has been for quite some time (I really can't remember a time when it wasn't). Most of the time, 5 man pressures should be able to be blocked by 6 man protections (your video showed only 5 man pro's), overloads or not, but not by sliding the un-rushed tackle across the formation. Those OL should all move together towards the outside rusher. On a side note, I really hope that the NCAA demo is not too much of a prognosticator for what Madden is going to be (NCAA too, for that matter). I played about 3 quarters of one game before I had seen all I could handle. When I was on offense, I could pretty much shred the defense just running 4 vert variations with no hot-routing/assignment changes. Two consecutive plays when I was on defense broke the camels back: the AI QB through a ball into double coverage down the sideline, my safety (AI controlled) took a path that would have been good if the ball would have literally been overthrown by 30 yards. Then the CPU ran an option play in which the pitch man came to a complete stop and then reversed his field on the pitch, losing about 10 yards. There's no place for things like this...

shtty, my fear is A.I wise Madden is going to be very similar. The thing that will be different is physics. That's not a small difference I don't think. Just going off of what I read on some updates with guys at Tiburon now, I see how those outside runs in many of the videos happen. One of them reported that you cannot attack the gaps per usual with linebackers because with the physics, guys can trip and fall. I'm wondering if all the outside runs in the E3 videos were due to the OLB tripping and falling due to physics. I'm not sure.

On the five man pressures vs six blockers well the sad news from the NCAA demo is that the last set up for the 3 Overload Fire I showed, namely the outlawed version because of the Spy, with that one you can have seven man protection and the linebacker can still come up the middle untouched This is why I said a while back if they do not catch this stuff online for NCAA is going to be very BAD.