News Post

Do Sports Games Receive Too Much Criticism?

06:33 PM - May 24, 2008 by countryboy

One of our forum members, countryboy, has written an interesting piece about the scrutiny that sports games receive in general. We decided to tag it for our front page since it was already receiving a lot of attention.

Do sports games receive too much criticism?

I am asking this question about every sports game. Football, baseball, basketball, hockey, racing, golf, tennis, soccer, wrestling, or any other sport that you can think of that has a video game representing it.

Every one of these sports has a fan following behind it, that want the game to mirror what they see on TV or play themselves. And along with this expectation of an exact replica, the fans become more and more demanding of the game. No more settling for something that just represents the sport they play/watch. We monitor every screenshot, every video, and hang on every word that is a preview of our game. Then we play the game for ourselves, enjoy it for the first couple of days, and then throw it under a microscope and examine it from top to bottom, leaving no feature, no player model, not one single aspect of the game is left out of the examination.

If a player's hair cut is wrong we know it. If the game isn't being played properly, we spot it. If the fans section isn't 100% then you can bet your bottom dollar that someone is going to mention it. We knock ourselves out, examing the game, making sure that its perfect. And the minute that it isn't, we agonize over it until the next installment, or a patch, whichever comes first.

So my question again. Do sports games receive too much criticism? Or maybe I should ask, do we set ourselves up for disappointment by expecting perfection from our favorite sports game? Do we examine this as if we are examining a crime scene, looking for something thats not right, out of place, to the point that there is no way that we can fully enjoy the game?

What other genre of games receive this much criticism and have to live up to these types of expectations? I know that there are fans of Halo, GTA, MGS, COD, and others that expect certain things out of the game and if they are lacking the fans will be heard. But, do the fans of those types of games, expect the same type of perfection that fans of sports games expect? I mean, when playing COD, do you find yourself saying, "man, there is no way that a soldier would run like that." or "that isn't the proper way to hold a machine gun. Look at it, his hand position is all wrong and his body posture is out of sorts." I don't think we do. We play these games because they are games. So why don't we play sports games for the same reason?

Why don't we play the game for the fun of it? Why do we focus on the negatives so much and tend to overlook the positives of a sports game? I mean after all, its just a video game, right?

So, I'll ask my question one more time. Do sports games receive too much criticism? I am looking forward to the thoughts and insights of my fellow OS'ers and especially my fellow sports nuts.

DISCLAIMER This post is in no way, no how, intended to call out those who complain about a sports game, get upset when something isn't right, or anyone that talks about something negative about a sports game. We all do it. We all have our certain expectations and when they are not met, we get frustrated when said expectations are not met. This post is for nothing more than discussion. Thank you for reading.

Member Comments

# 21 mgoblue @ 05/26/08 02:44 PM

I'm not totally convinced some sports gamers actually want to enjoy a game. I swear, with bitching and whining about sock colors, jerseys, every little thing...then tweaking the "eye blink" slider so the players blink correctly, I think some people just love nitpicking, whining, and just bitching about the current year's release.

I 100% believe that there are way more guys than any of you think who would see a theoretical "perfect" Madden release and go "It's not NFL 2k5, it sucks".

Personally I've stopped striving for the "sim" aspect a lot of guys go for, because after a while it stops making a game fun. I'm not a NFL level coach, I shouldn't have to watch hours of tape in order to understand defenses in Madden. I just want to have fun in games, I want them to be realistic, but I think sports gamers are overly sensitive to realism. Seriously, people don't bitch about Sonic's sock colors.

I know I'm in the drastic minority here, but it's just how I feel based on what I see here every year. No game will be perfect or even near perfect to guys here because they'll find some little issue and blow it way out of proportion.

# 22 countryboy @ 05/26/08 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgoblue


	I'm not totally convinced some sports gamers actually want to enjoy a game. I swear, with bitching and whining about sock colors, jerseys, every little thing...then tweaking the "eye blink" slider so the players blink correctly, I think some people just love nitpicking, whining, and just bitching about the current year's release. I 100% believe that there are way more guys than any of you think who would see a theoretical "perfect" Madden release and go "It's not NFL 2k5, it sucks". Personally I've stopped striving for the "sim" aspect a lot of guys go for, because after a while it stops making a game fun. I'm not a NFL level coach, I shouldn't have to watch hours of tape in order to understand defenses in Madden. I just want to have fun in games, I want them to be realistic, but I think sports gamers are overly sensitive to realism. Seriously, people don't bitch about Sonic's sock colors. I know I'm in the drastic minority here, but it's just how I feel based on what I see here every year. No game will be perfect or even near perfect to guys here because they'll find some little issue and blow it way out of proportion.

this is the reason behind my article. Great post mgoblue

# 23 countryboy @ 05/26/08 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdjacobs


	Do sports gamers give games too much criticism at times? Yes. Games like Halo, GTA, etc. have years between releases, so it's easier to see the improvements. If they were yearly, we'd be complaining about the lack of improvement. Do most major media sites give the games enough criticism? No. When was the last time a major media site went in and addressed if community concerns were addressed from one year to the next? Have they ever actually evaluated online play (for example) or do they just regurgitate what the press release on the game says for that feature? (Not to mention when some sites give the old 'they just changed the year on the box' joke.) I'd say that sometimes fans are too critical and media sites are not critical enough. One party needs to be less critical and the other more critical. Then we may begin to see more changes from one year to the next, regardless of if we feel enough changes are already occurring. Good article, countryboy.

good post and thank you.

# 24 stretch45 @ 05/26/08 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgoblue


	I'm not totally convinced some sports gamers actually want to enjoy a game. I swear, with bitching and whining about sock colors, jerseys, every little thing...then tweaking the "eye blink" slider so the players blink correctly, I think some people just love nitpicking, whining, and just bitching about the current year's release. I 100% believe that there are way more guys than any of you think who would see a theoretical "perfect" Madden release and go "It's not NFL 2k5, it sucks". Personally I've stopped striving for the "sim" aspect a lot of guys go for, because after a while it stops making a game fun. I'm not a NFL level coach, I shouldn't have to watch hours of tape in order to understand defenses in Madden. I just want to have fun in games, I want them to be realistic, but I think sports gamers are overly sensitive to realism. Seriously, people don't bitch about Sonic's sock colors. I know I'm in the drastic minority here, but it's just how I feel based on what I see here every year. No game will be perfect or even near perfect to guys here because they'll find some little issue and blow it way out of proportion.

I agree

# 25 countryboy @ 05/26/08 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sqeg


	I know you can't please all of the people all of the time but, you can please some of the people, all the time. And the reality is, this just isn't happening.

good post speg, but I disagree with the statement above. Developers are pleasing some of the people all the time. Now it may not be you and I who are sim heads, but they are definitely pleasing people all the time. And in more cases than not, its the casual/online gamer.

Again, very good post.

# 26 davin @ 05/26/08 08:41 PM

I think they deserve too much criticism given the circumstances. One year, really a couple months isn't enough to fix everything. There will be no perfect football game, because there are just too many variables and too many things to go wrong. I like realism, I edit my rosters of NCAA as much as I can, if they have a guy at the wrong position (for example, incoming freshman Mike Brewster for OSU), I will move him. If they have the wrong number, I will fix it if I can. I try to play the game realistically, but I catch myself scrapping the run every now and then and throwing 50 times a game (often out of sheer frustration, "run it until you get it right"). I get NCAA every year, I love the game and the excitement that comes with it. I don't expect perfection, really I just like to be entertained and if it plays realistically that is great. I remember a year or two ago playing Madden 99 on the n64 with a friend, in that game: the ball was thrown through 3 defenders, players went through eachother, the ball's release was crazy (rotation and then rocket launcher) among other things. Interceptions happened when the ball would warp through the helmet of your WR. But do you know what, that was the version of Madden I enjoyed most, my friends and I would all play on the same team, all four controllers. It didn't matter the game had its amazingly unrealistic moments, we enjoyed it anyways.

When NCAA 2009 comes out, there will be something wrong with it. The WVU mascot already scares the hell out of me. I'm sure some gameplay flaw will come out, and I will complain. But I will play on despite that because I love college football and think it is still a pretty good game. I know I am not their target customer, and I accept the game for what it is and try to enjoy it.

# 27 countryboy @ 05/26/08 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davin


	I think they deserve too much criticism given the circumstances. One year, really a couple months isn't enough to fix everything. There will be no perfect football game, because there are just too many variables and too many things to go wrong. I like realism, I edit my rosters of NCAA as much as I can, if they have a guy at the wrong position (for example, incoming freshman Mike Brewster for OSU), I will move him. If they have the wrong number, I will fix it if I can. I try to play the game realistically, but I catch myself scrapping the run every now and then and throwing 50 times a game (often out of sheer frustration, "run it until you get it right"). I get NCAA every year, I love the game and the excitement that comes with it. I don't expect perfection, really I just like to be entertained and if it plays realistically that is great. I remember a year or two ago playing Madden 99 on the n64 with a friend, in that game: the ball was thrown through 3 defenders, players went through eachother, the ball's release was crazy (rotation and then rocket launcher) among other things. Interceptions happened when the ball would warp through the helmet of your WR. But do you know what, that was the version of Madden I enjoyed most, my friends and I would all play on the same team, all four controllers. It didn't matter the game had its amazingly unrealistic moments, we enjoyed it anyways. When NCAA 2009 comes out, there will be something wrong with it. The WVU mascot already scares the hell out of me. I'm sure some gameplay flaw will come out, and I will complain. But I will play on despite that because I love college football and think it is still a pretty good game. I know I am not their target customer, and I accept the game for what it is and try to enjoy it.

Terrific post

# 28 countryboy @ 05/26/08 08:47 PM

I would like to say something. I would like to thank everyone for keeping it civil. I was afraid before I posted that it would turn into a flame war about one game or another, but thus far(though only 34 posts in) its remained civil and I appreciate that.

Again, this thread wasn't started to defend sports games, nor to completely rip them apart. It was started to discuss the criticism of sports game and to get people's opinions and points of views, and I am glad that is what its doing.

A lot of good information, points, and discussion going on in this thread. Keep the point of views coming.

# 29 DrJones @ 05/26/08 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blzer


	No. They are releasing a game every year. That's really probably less than six months of hard-coding. It isn't really enough to differentiate year from year, and while that's all good and dandy and we should accept that, first press-releases create totally unnecessary hype every time in and out. Does it suck me in? Of course. But this is where they should be criticized... where they don't deliver. Then the team gives excuses about not enough time to add something in, and I say that is bull. They should have a few guys secretly working on some hitting code, pitching code, franchise code... whatever, in some hidden file that takes four years to complete. But they don't do anything long-term like that. Everything is year-in, year-out kind of material. I can't wait until we see some sports games go every other year. Saves us cash, lets us play a little more of our franchise mode, and they can get more quality long-term stuff in there that they're planning on doing for a game.

A couple things:

1. You realize the people who make the press releases are often disconnected from the people who make the game, right? They like to make promises that developers have difficulty keeping.

2. When dev teams say "they didn't have enough time", sometimes they're telling the truth, sometimes not. But you can't publicly say stuff like, "This key programmer/designer/manager sucks, but he's untouchable because he's friends with important people in the company" or "20 people quit midway through the project to start their own company" or "execs decided to cut our budget in half to make the bean counters happy", now can you?

3. I'm not sure what you mean by programmers "secretly working on code". Secret from who, their managers?

4. All game devs want the two-year cycle, so they can a.) make better games, and b.) spend less time at work. This will become a reality when execs collectively decide that they can make more money this way, rather than releasing a new game every year. In other words, never.

# 30 countryboy @ 05/26/08 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrJones


	A couple things: 1. You realize the people who make the press releases are often disconnected from the people who make the game, right? They like to make promises that developers have difficulty keeping. 2. When dev teams say "they didn't have enough time", sometimes they're telling the truth, sometimes not. But you can't publicly say stuff like, "This key programmer/designer/manager sucks, but he's untouchable because he's friends with important people in the company" or "20 people quit midway through the project to start their own company" or "execs decided to cut our budget in half to make the bean counters happy", now can you? 3. I'm not sure what you mean by programmers "secretly working on code". Secret from who, their managers? 4. All game devs want the two-year cycle, so they can a.) make better games, and b.) spend less time at work. This will become a reality when execs collectively decide that they can make more money this way, rather than releasing a new game every year. In other words, never.

I was hoping somehow, someway, you'd find your way to the thread. I was curious as to how you would respond.

# 31 ehh @ 05/27/08 08:46 AM

Of course they get too much criticism and I'm as guilty of it as anyone. Bottom line is that it's a videogame intended for entertainment purposes. If you don't like it or it doesn't live up to your standards then don't play it.

Of course none of us on OS do that, we sit here and bitch and moan and come up with 700 page wish lists where we're lucky if five items get included in next year's game.

We want perfection and everything imaginable in every game but 99% of us have no idea what goes into creating a video game and/or adding those features that we, "cannot understand how that wasn't included!"

# 32 Pared @ 05/27/08 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehh


	Of course none of us on OS do that, we sit here and bitch and moan and come up with 700 page wish lists where we're lucky if five items get included in next year's game. We want perfection and everything imaginable in every game but 99% of us have no idea what goes into creating a video game and/or adding those features that we, "cannot understand how that wasn't included!"

This should stickied on the top of every board during a major game release.

# 33 DrJones @ 05/28/08 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Soldier


	I don't really buy the lack of time or resources. It's not a coincidence that in the 2 biggest years of competition between EA and VC (2004 and 2005 lines of Madden and NCAA), we saw more improvements than in the 06, 07, 08, and 09 versions of the games combined, nor is it coincidence that the ratings for 2k's baseball series have dropped solidly since 2k5.

Wait, doesn't this PROVE that lack of time or resources is legit? When EA started getting their butts kicked by 2K in the early 2000's, they poured money into dev teams to improve the quality. When a dev team at EA or 2K says "we didn't have enough resources", they don't mean that the company itself doesn't have the money, but that the money was being shifted elsewhere.

# 34 mgoblue @ 05/28/08 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrJones


	Wait, doesn't this PROVE that lack of time or resources is legit? When EA started getting their butts kicked by 2K in the early 2000's, they poured money into dev teams to improve the quality. When a dev team at EA or 2K says "we didn't have enough resources", they don't mean that the company itself doesn't have the money, but that the money was being shifted elsewhere.

Yeah, you can't just say "add 50 people to a dev team"...do people realize how expensive that would be at the cost of qualified people these days? That would seriously jack up the cost of a game....

# 35 muggins @ 05/28/08 08:52 AM

I don't think they receive too much crictism, especially here at OS. If a game has game-killing bugs, I want to know about it. $60 is too much to just 'settle' for a game.

How long have people been asking for certain features in certain games? Then they go and put in totally off the wall things that no one would ever want? How could they let such awful bugs get through - did they even playtest it?

You'll also notice that a game that has good on the field play with only a few issues and a great legacy mode will always get good marks here. CH2k8, NFL2k5, NCAA on the Xbox1, MLB Show etc.

# 36 bkfount @ 05/28/08 09:07 AM

These games cost 60 dollars, each year. They come out with 6 month development cycles, and cost the same as games that have been in development for years. I see nothing wrong with people being hard on these games.

It's obvious to anyone that has been in gaming for awhile, that these games have been slacking off more and more. We're no longer in the age of competition driven improvements in this genre of games. No more trying to push hard to one up your opponent year after year.

# 37 bkfount @ 05/28/08 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunt


	We are talking about multi-billion dollar corporations.

and these multi billion dollar corporations see how well the games sell as is. There's not enough reason to put more money into a game just so little things in the grand scheme of things gets addressed. Anytime they spend extra time or money on something that will have little effect in sales, it's money wasted to them.

It sucks that companies take that position, as not all of the game developers do, but it is a business.

# 38 Trevytrev11 @ 05/28/08 03:07 PM

I think in whole we are too critical, but at an individual level, people only want what is important to them fixed. On a small scale, this is do-able, but when you combine the wants of hundres of thousands of customers, these wants are un-obtainable.

However, people in the business had to know what they were getting into and decided to go that route. I'm sure they make a fair wage and if they don't they should seek employment elsewhere. If you sign up for the job, you sign up for all that comes with it. Everyone faces stress and unobtainable expectations at some point in their career and you either deal with it or you go somewhere else.

The biggest overall problem is that all of these games have a 2 sided fan base that are on complete opposite ends of the spectruns and for the most part, to please one means to piss off the other. It is impossible to be full sim and still appeal to a casual fan. The details that go into being sucesful in realisitic are just too much for most people.

If you take a baseball game and make hitting too hard, you piss off the casual fan and if you make it to easy you piss off the sim fan. Sliders in a perfect world would be the fix, but they never seem to work right or aren't explained to the user of how they work together.

The other problem, and I notice this in the MLB 2K series, is that I don't think the people creating these games have a strong knowledge of the minor details of the game. I think they are mostly casual fans of the game, but their not fannatics. Because of this, a lot of small, but important parts of the game are either missing or flawed. Look at MLB 2K8 and the stolen base issue or the fact that AI pitchers don't throw balls at a realistic pace. To anyone with a decent knowledge of the game, this is an instant pick up.

I think it would be helpful for all of these games to at least have one person on board who is knowledgeable in the sport who could see something and instantly point out that it is not right. Instead, I think you have a bunch of people who see the same thing and don't even realize it's wrong.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I think in reality, the question is, are our expectations too high? Do we want things that can't be done?

And I think with this, the answer may be yes. However, you look at pieces of games and see how well they do certain things great, but in the form of a total package, they all miss the boat somewhere.

You see the overall game play of the Show, but see the signiture stances and new control scheme of 2K8 and you can't help but wonder how great a game would be if those things were all combined.

# 39 DrJones @ 05/28/08 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunt


	We are talking about multi-billion dollar corporations.

Right, but when I talk about "dev teams", I mean the people who make the games, not the bloated bureacracy who control the purse strings. The people who actually do the work have no control over budgets. When we started making well-received MVP games, what happened? EA management slashed our budget to cut costs and would steal key people to work on say, FIFA. And then we would go onto a forum like this and be called "lazy". Devs who read those kind of things tend to tune you guys out at that point.

# 40 DrJones @ 05/28/08 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevytrev11


	However, people in the business had to know what they were getting into and decided to go that route. I'm sure they make a fair wage and if they don't they should seek employment elsewhere. If you sign up for the job, you sign up for all that comes with it. Everyone faces stress and unobtainable expectations at some point in their career and you either deal with it or you go somewhere else.

But that's it, people DO go somewhere else. There's a high turnover rate at a lot of these companies, largely due to stress, and if people are shuffling in and out (particularly if it happens at critical times, or the new people are inexperienced or unfamiliar with making sports titles), then guess what, the game quality suffers.

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