Madden NFL 13 News Post

Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

10:36 AM - June 11, 2012 by LBzrule

In episode 230 of Madden Daily, Sgibs revealed that run/pass commit is in Madden 13. Check the video out here:

Also I've already submitted this to the appropriate folks at EA. But this is where the community comes in. If they don't see a big reaction they are not going to address it. So you guys need to chime in. I don't want the Run/Pass Commit in Madden 13 to be like NCAA which is an all or nothing affair and which also does not focus on gap control/force/containment. To me this is EA's chance right here to do something really great. To see run/pass commit in action in Madden 13 see this video: Browns vs Seahawks.

7:18 in this video you see run commit left. I don't like it like this. I don't like the complete nullification of the defensive play called and having everyone sell out. Here is what I sent to the devs.
Can you guys make the following tweaks:

1. The run commit only activates against run plays. This way it operates more like a run fit, which is more realistic than having complete sell outs against the run and plays into their read and react defense theme. Allow Play Recognition to govern whether guys bite on Play Action.

2. When committing left or right, edge defenders; DE's and 3-4 OLB should step up the field and set the edge.

3. All other defenders in the front seven, with the exception of the backside DE or OLB, should simply attack the next gap over.

4. Backside DE/OLB should step up field first as if he is looking for boot action or reverse, then trail the play.

So for the 3-4 for instance you would have something like this

In the above diagram you have the defense in the base 3-4 with the DE's in 5 and the NT head up center. As the diagram shows, all the guys are going to do is hit the next gap over. So if I go run commit right then the DLine should look like this from left to right. B A C. RDE takes backside B gap; NT takes right side A gap; LDE takes right side C gap. RILB has backside A gap, and LILB has front side B gap. Edge players step up and set on the right side; back side player steps into the back field checking for backside boot, reverse and playing cutback. So that would actually look like the following:

Notice the NT LDE and RDE. Based on their alignment they are only going to fire to the next gap over. Also whether the offense runs right or left, there will always be a backside player.

Let's take some other examples from the 4-3 Stack and Over

4-3 Stack

Run commit left here (might be different since the direction is based on looking at the screen and this diagram is at the back of the defense, but you should get the picture)would have Duckett/Seawright firing to C, Jospeh firing to A, Strahan stepping up field to set edge, Osi stepping up field backside looking for boot, reverse, if neither are there trail the play down the line. Pierce has left A then scrape, Arrington left B then scrape (I only advocate this for Madden since all they can probably do is get guys to fire to the next gap over. In real life Duckett Seawright would have B and Arrington would have C) Emmons backside B then scrape.

4-3 Over

Let's go run commit to the right from the backside of the defense. Strahan, backside contain player looking for boot, reverse and then just trailing play; Joseph to A; Duckett/Seawright to B; Osi Fire to C. Arrington checks C; Pierce Check A; In Madden Emmons would be on the line of scrimmage so, Fire up field and set edge.

I would also hope it is clear that run commit does not automatically mean that I stop the run even if I have the "right" fit call. It should mean a great deal given certain offensive plays. For tosses it should work great if I have the right call. But against a wide zone, it should be less automatic because if the linebackers run outta there too quick, cutback lanes should be there, especially if the back side guy over pursues.

This is very important. Please do not have the defenders just arbitrarily running right and left. Have them hit gaps, step up and set the edge, play backside contain, pursuit. This is a chance to do something really nice for run defense IMO.

Pass commit. Can this be used to change the rush angles and engage points of the DE's/3-4 OLB's with the OT's. Can we get the engage point much deeper and closer to the Qb as he is dropping?

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Member Comments

# 61 PSUEagle @ 06/11/12 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	Here is my question. Considering how FUBAR we have been told the coding in next-gen Madden is and how it is supposed to add so much more difficulty to implementing things into the game, how feasible is it for EA/Tiburon to address these things like run/pass commit before the next consoles? That "other game" was likely built on core football fundamentals from the start so it was likely easier to build on that. I don't think anybody would argue that about next-gen Madden so maybe band-aids here and there are the best the devs can do right now. I think even Infinity was likely mainly implemented this generation in hopes of ironing it out for the next consoles. Also where is the core problem in regards to representing run/pass commit, the AI, the playart, the animations, all three or something else entirely? I am hoping there can be something straightforward that we all can get behind that devs and programmers can clearly envision a way to get into Madden on these current consoles.

Full disclosure: I know next to nothing about programming.

With that said, I think it's very possible if they have the right guys in place and a commitment to building it correctly from the ground up. They should start working on the new game as soon as they receive internal copies of the PS4/XBOX 720.

They may need to release a place-holder type game for a couple of years on the level of Madden 06 while they build, but again, I think it's very possible. The problem is you have a combination of game play guys who understand some of the game but not nearly enough (and IMO don't have the passion/desire/drive to truly learn what they don't know) to go along with a marketing apparatus that believes that making the game anymore "complex" will alienate the all mighty "casual" crowd. The game play guys can't/won't fix the issue, while the marketing guys essentially support the status quo due to no competition.

Bad combination.

# 62 LBzrule @ 06/11/12 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	Here is my question. Considering how FUBAR we have been told the coding in next-gen Madden is and how it is supposed to add so much more difficulty to implementing things into the game, how feasible is it for EA/Tiburon to address these things like run/pass commit before the next consoles? That "other game" was likely built on core football fundamentals from the start so it was likely easier to build on that. I don't think anybody would argue that about next-gen Madden so maybe band-aids here and there are the best the devs can do right now. I think even Infinity was likely mainly implemented this generation in hopes of ironing it out for the next consoles. Also where is the core problem in regards to representing run/pass commit, the AI, the playart, the animations, all three or something else entirely? I am hoping there can be something straightforward that we all can get behind that devs and programmers can clearly envision a way to get into Madden on these current consoles.

Big, this last part here is what I'm trying to remember. When did run/pass commit show up in the Madden series? Was it 05? 06? Also when did it show up in NCAA? I know why it showed up in NCAA. In that game you couldn't just call a good play and stop the run. You were kinda forced to use run commit to stop it. Even then people would still have 200 + rushing yard games in online head to head games. Defense too passive.

# 63 LBzrule @ 06/11/12 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	From what I can tell be searching the internets, it appears it was first in Madden 2005 with the defensive pre-play controls. On a side not, I wish I hadn't searched because a I honestly couldn't believe some of the stuff I read about old Maddens that they are repeating even this year. lol Anyway, I think it was added to deter gamers from blatantly running the same plays over again. I guess adaptive AI has been a consistent issue with Madden even last gen. The crazy thing is, I don't think it's an issue in the sense that they can't get it to work properly to deter a lack of play calling diversity but rather a balancing issue for how "fun" the game is. In an interview before M10 came out, Ian talks about intentionally weakening adaptive AI in HUM v HUM games I guess because they felt like that was limiting User control, letting the AI adjust for you. So run/pass commit is likely some compromise to put some form of adaptive AI in control of the User. Same thing with the smart feature from Madden 09's weapons, it would show the User the their opponents play if repeated too many times but the AI players didn't do anything to adjust, without User input. I really wish you hadn't inadvertently started me down this rabbit hole. lol

Hmmm if it was added in 2005 it was probably added for that stupid JUKE GLITCH in Madden 2004 (Juke Glitch might have been in Madden 2005 can't remember). See this is what I'm saying. When you look back at when this stuff was added it is always something that was happening on the competitive scene or in online lobbies that was exposing the game and that Juke Glitch back then was a mess.

# 64 KBLover @ 06/12/12 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	Also where is the core problem in regards to representing run/pass commit, the AI, the playart, the animations, all three or something else entirely? I am hoping there can be something straightforward that we all can get behind that devs and programmers can clearly envision a way to get into Madden on these current consoles.

I probably won't be a lot of help because I just don't think it should exist at all.

It's...just the way guys should play because that's how the game is played. Not to mention the thing brought up with calling a pass D and still "committing to the run", which is like...what?

I guess if they put it with crash on the DL, that's one thing that's at least a bit realistic. That would at least shift the gaps the LBs are targeting (since the line is slanting that way the defensive gaps shift too and then it's up to the OL to block at the point of attack and seal things off).

Or, perhaps make it more an on-the-fly communication to represent how guys communicate on the field when they seem something - though, that, too, should be based on ratings AWR and PRC, the leadership role, or maybe both. So if you're caught in the draw, you can use it to call "Draw! Draw!" while the play is going on to maybe help response. Likewise with the play action. Then put one in for screens - basically the deceptive-type plays.

I don't know - I just can't come up with something that doesn't feel like it's negating mental ratings and player tendencies.

# 65 kjcheezhead @ 06/12/12 09:04 AM

Late to the thread. Seems like a lot of guys feel LBz suggestions are too complicated. Not sure why. Mostly it came down to 4 changes.

Quote:


	1. The run commit only activates against run plays. This way it operates more like a run fit, which is more realistic than having complete sell outs against the run and plays into their read and react defense theme. Allow Play Recognition to govern whether guys bite on Play Action.

Seems easy enough to do. I think draw plays might go along with play action where play recognition/awareness decides if they commit?

Quote:


	2. When committing left or right, edge defenders; DE's and 3-4 OLB should step up the field and set the edge.

So basically, if I commit to the defenses right the RDE or ROLB first step should be towards the line instead of to the right? Again, doesn't seem like a terribly complicated programming tweak.

Quote:


	3. All other defenders in the front seven, with the exception of the backside DE or OLB, should simply attack the next gap over.

Again, similiar to suggetion 3 this doesn't sound too complicated of an adjustment

Quote:


	4. Backside DE/OLB should step up field first as if he is looking for boot action or reverse, then trail the play.

The last defender away from the play doesn't commit like the rest, his assignment is to watch the backside.

Seems like simple fixes imo and they make sense logically when you think about how a defense would react to the run. I hope the devs can do these tweaks before the game drops.

# 66 LBzrule @ 06/12/12 10:20 AM

Video from NCAA 13 demo on the way about this stuff. Yikes

Here is the video. Interesting things. On the crashes to the right the DLinemen did not take the next gap over. They just stood where they lined up and got blocked there. He either beat the block or not. But when run committing in that same direction, it basically looked like the OL got screwed up and just forgot to block people. The run commit has the DL crashing so far in the direction that you commit. It's like BLIND Football. Forget everything else and go that way.

The other thing that was really interesting and did not make sense was that I purposely shifted the defense out of position and because I selected run commit the direction of the run, I was still able to blow up the run the majority of the time. This makes no sense. Goes completely against run defensive football fundamentals. One of the first things that must happen when defending the run is we must align our front properly or we are already beaten. As you can see toward the latter portion of the video, we are outmanned on a side and still stop the run just because I picked the run commit to that side. This is kinda sloppy. I should have ran quarters and see what I could have done out of that.

I think the crash right/left need to be like the run commit, but the movement much less extreme. It should simply be next gap over. This way the run commit can be saved for Goal line, 3rd and 4th and inches situations. The remainder of the game you should be able to set your run fits how you like and see guys man gaps and play fundamental defensive football.

Also Big and Taz, I think I know why the run commit was added to Madden NCAA back in 2005. QB Sneak and FB Dive out of Goal Line sets were unstoppable. So rather than getting the interior line to fire off the ball and getting the linebackers who were basically standing right there some intelligence, they came up with this feature. They added right and left run commit for tosses and the juke glitch probably.

When they first had it it was just for the middle. It wasn't until later that they added left and right commit.

# 67 BezO @ 06/12/12 12:06 PM

Man, that vid is ugly!

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	The reasoning I got was that they could give me everything 2k does pre-snap but on the field. That was in 2009 and I haven't seen it yet I don't know if it is the OL cannot handle it or what.

From what I remember, the way defensive "assignments" and blocking assignments are tied together would require an overhaul to the blocking AI given all the new combinations the defense would have. That's probably why the o-line can't block run commits.

I just don't understand why these half baked features are implemented.

# 68 LBzrule @ 06/12/12 02:22 PM

Yeah it really is unfortunate. I was thinking maybe there is something they can do, but there may not be anything they can do this year that would completely destroy the run blocking logic. After thinking about this some more, it seems like the OL and DL are in a script based on where the DL lines up and that keeps the storm contained. If you want to stop the run then you either have to wheel and deal and hope things work out, or you go with an all out gamble. It's so fundamentally unsound defensive football

# 69 KBLover @ 06/12/12 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	Here is the video. Interesting things. On the crashes to the right the DLinemen did not take the next gap over. They just stood where they lined up and got blocked there. He either beat the block or not. But when run committing in that same direction, it basically looked like the OL got screwed up and just forgot to block people. The run commit has the DL crashing so far in the direction that you commit. It's like BLIND Football. Forget everything else and go that way.

That was ridiculous.

That "commit" stuff is just insane. How could that ever be considered realistic football and something that should be sent out? Ratings are meaningless because they don't even block the guys. The defense doesn't need ratings because they just run free because the offense doesn't block. Nothing the HB can do except not fumble.

Ugh.

I don't know if you ran plays where you ran it opposite of the commit (commit right, run left), or how it works against the counter (commit right, counter-left) because after just seeing the commit to the correct playside, I just couldn't take it.

This will definitely be one thing I won't be using in M13 and I hope the CPU doesn't either because that I know already is going to drive me up a wall.

And crashing is still useless. Why didn't they just make crashing work and leave out the commit stuff? And if they won't make crashing work...just take it out (isn't that their supposed mantra now - if it doesn't work, it's out?)

I just wish this game would get away from the "counter mentality" like it's a fighting or RTS game (and even there it's not so much all-or-nothing, just advantage/disadvantage - skill can still overcome a character's/unit's weaknesses) and just get to football and make it more advantage/disadvantage to where personnel still matters. You could have the best OL in the league but with that kind of behavior...what's the point? You're just hoping to "beat the commit" instead of just executing solid run blocking and reading blocks/holes as the HB or defender and taking advantage of your personnel.

# 70 LBzrule @ 06/12/12 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBLover


	That was ridiculous. That "commit" stuff is just insane. How could that ever be considered realistic football and something that should be sent out? Ratings are meaningless because they don't even block the guys. The defense doesn't need ratings because they just run free because the offense doesn't block. Nothing the HB can do except not fumble. Ugh. I don't know if you ran plays where you ran it opposite of the commit (commit right, run left), or how it works against the counter (commit right, counter-left) because after just seeing the commit to the correct playside, I just couldn't take it. This will definitely be one thing I won't be using in M13 and I hope the CPU doesn't either because that I know already is going to drive me up a wall. And crashing is still useless. Why didn't they just make crashing work and leave out the commit stuff? And if they won't make crashing work...just take it out (isn't that their supposed mantra now - if it doesn't work, it's out?) I just wish this game would get away from the "counter mentality" like it's a fighting or RTS game (and even there it's not so much all-or-nothing, just advantage/disadvantage - skill can still overcome a character's/unit's weaknesses) and just get to football and make it more advantage/disadvantage to where personnel still matters. You could have the best OL in the league but with that kind of behavior...what's the point? You're just hoping to "beat the commit" instead of just executing solid run blocking and reading blocks/holes as the HB or defender and taking advantage of your personnel.

I ran it opposite the commit after I created that video and if the CB opposite the Commit gets blocked it's a home run if you have a speed back. The thing that really made me mad was I would purposely run to the left side. I would also shift the defensive line and linebackers that way and run commit the other way. On the snap the entire front seven just takes off to the right although I shifted them all left. I don't like the feature. Childish IMO. I mean I think it's pretty weak that just because I'm running left and you run commit left, now my OL is not going to block. And to add to what you've implied, I'm for getting rid of anything that makes the ratings obsolete, like this feature does. They do need things in the game where you can add logic to your run defense, but not this kinda stuff. Unfortunately it's all they are giving us.

With them having this in Madden this year, makes me wonder if there are some home run run plays or some annoying 3 to 5 yard QB sneak up the middle things that are money

and this is your only recourse to stop it.

# 71 Bootzilla @ 06/12/12 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	Video from NCAA 13 demo on the way about this stuff. Yikes Here is the video. Interesting things. On the crashes to the right the DLinemen did not take the next gap over. They just stood where they lined up and got blocked there. He either beat the block or not. But when run committing in that same direction, it basically looked like the OL got screwed up and just forgot to block people. The run commit has the DL crashing so far in the direction that you commit. It's like BLIND Football. Forget everything else and go that way. The other thing that was really interesting and did not make sense was that I purposely shifted the defense out of position and because I selected run commit the direction of the run, I was still able to blow up the run the majority of the time. This makes no sense. Goes completely against run defensive football fundamentals. One of the first things that must happen when defending the run is we must align our front properly or we are already beaten. As you can see toward the latter portion of the video, we are outmanned on a side and still stop the run just because I picked the run commit to that side. This is kinda sloppy. I should have ran quarters and see what I could have done out of that. I think the crash right/left need to be like the run commit, but the movement much less extreme. It should simply be next gap over. This way the run commit can be saved for Goal line, 3rd and 4th and inches situations. The remainder of the game you should be able to set your run fits how you like and see guys man gaps and play fundamental defensive football. Also Big and Taz, I think I know why the run commit was added to Madden NCAA back in 2005. QB Sneak and FB Dive out of Goal Line sets were unstoppable. So rather than getting the interior line to fire off the ball and getting the linebackers who were basically standing right there some intelligence, they came up with this feature. They added right and left run commit for tosses and the juke glitch probably. When they first had it it was just for the middle. It wasn't until later that they added left and right commit.

That was terrible. Like you've stated though, everything is a counter to something else. Just screwing around with the NCAA 13 demo I've noticed that it appears the cpu is actually run committing when you manually motion the TE and run to that side. The defense is on you instantly. If you run the exact same play but you don't motion over an extra blocker the defense plays it honest. I feel the run commits to the right or left were put in for that reason. People were motioning over TE's, WR's, etc to out flank the defense and gain a blocking advantage. The counter, in EA's mind is to allow all out run commits that will blow up said tactics.

As it stands the run commits left and right are obviously overpowered yet the line crashes are woefully underpowered. I don't know if the gameplan feature from NCAA is making its way over to Madden but, maybe that would be a way to get your d-line to play aggressively in certain situations. I don't know. Maybe that'll help your DB's stay back in coverage and not bite on double moves on 3rd and long if your DB's are put on conservative. The only problem with that is if yu get no huddled you can't change your gameplan without calling a time out.

With run commit as overpowered as it is there's no way an already anemic flexbone option game or jet sweeps can work. You can tell 99% of the time which direction the play is going and you can just run commit to that side as soon as you see the man go in motion. That's why I put in my own rules where I only run commit in goal line or short yardage situations to the middle. The line blocks run commit middle much better and vs the cpu they will hit you with outside runs to keep you honest.

# 72 ch46647 @ 06/12/12 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	I ran it opposite the commit after I created that video and if the CB opposite the Commit gets blocked it's a home run if you have a speed back. The thing that really made me mad was I would purposely run to the left side. I would also shift the defensive line and linebackers that way and run commit the other way. On the snap the entire front seven just takes off to the right although I shifted them all left. I don't like the feature. Childish IMO. I mean I think it's pretty weak that just because I'm running left and you run commit left, now my OL is not going to block. And to add to what you've implied, I'm for getting rid of anything that makes the ratings obsolete, like this feature does. They do need things in the game where you can add logic to your run defense, but not this kinda stuff. Unfortunately it's all they are giving us. With them having this in Madden this year, makes me wonder if there are some home run run plays or some annoying 3 to 5 yard QB sneak up the middle things that are money and this is your only recourse to stop it.

Well atleast if you run "commit" to the wrong side you will pay the price for it. The only time I would ever use run commit is if it was short yardage and I thought it was a QB sneak. I would run commit to the middle. The left and right run commit are useless for the exact reason you just explained. However, I do like the pass commit button making my AI players more aware of the pass. That is realistic because when it is obvious passing downs my AI controlled players should me made aware of that. I just wish they would also make the D-ENDs get up field and create a pocket when I select that.

LBZ, I do agree that they absolutely need to overhal OL and DL play. Hopefully they do what they did with the passing game and add 400+ new animations and also add physics on top of that for next year.

# 73 LBzrule @ 06/13/12 12:27 PM

OK guys after second thought, they should be able to do something to this. When I look at what they did with slide protection for this year, which I think is a good addition (that works pretty well), they should be able to do something to this. I hope they do something with the line crashes.

# 74 sgibs7 @ 06/13/12 01:23 PM

i personally think that it SHOULD be an all out gamble - if you are telling your team that the run is coming to the right or left and your wrong - you should pay big time

# 75 LBzrule @ 06/13/12 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgibs7


	i personally think that it SHOULD be an all out gamble - if you are telling your team that the run is coming to the right or left and your wrong - you should pay big time

Gibs, I was waiting for you to chime in. Frankly, with the language of commit I can see how one would reason that it should be this way. One of the reasons I responded to one of the posters by saying I think we are talking about two different things is because of the language "commit" does put one in that mindset. My picture of commit is different. I don't see how one can commit to anything without making a read. Taking it into another arena of life, a guy or girl who "commits" to someone without asking some questions will more than likely always end up disappointed. Going back to the game, committing to a toss right should not be the same thing as committing to a Wide Zone right.

Just thinking it through I think what they need to do is take the crash right and left and make it like the original post.

I think run commit the way it is, just should not be in the game at all. My reasoning is as follows:

Just because a player tells the defense to sell out on a run to the left does not mean that the offensive line for the player on offense should now forget what their assignments are. Why is my offense punished completely just because the other player has his defense crashing that way?

Second, even if a person tells their defense to sell out on a run why should that now mean the ratings are thrown out the window? We see threads every year about how Donny doesn't rate guys right. There is some merit to this. We see threads about how the ratings in this game do not matter? Well with gimmick features like run commit, those people are exactly right. Ratings get throw right out of the window and continues to feed the negative perception of the game. How are players distinguished with a feature like this? Everyone now has the same ability? read, react timing? block shedding tackling ability? All because someone pushed commit right/left/middle? And now the entire offensive line becomes the five stooges and a bumbling TE???

Third, these type of features take us out of a football mindset and into dealing with game play abuses (Yeah I may be being a bit idealistic here in thinking game play faults can be minimized via the developer). I'm just thinking back to the first time run commit appeared in this series and I can be wrong here. If my memory is not failing me the first time it showed up was in 2005 and it only had one function and that was run commit middle to stop the QB sneak and FB dive out of goal line sets that people abused in 2004 online and on the competitive scene. Then in 2005 the juke glitch was introduced and it opened up a new can of worms. Madden 2006 gave us the vision cone in an attempt to deal with drop back passing. Madden 2007 was when I first remember run commit left/right. It might have been in 2006 I'm not for sure. The entire feature is generated around abuses and the feature itself led to abuse as guys would just come out in Quarters (this became a base defense for people and they stayed it in all game long) and run commit and blow up the run and still have great pass coverage.

Fourth, something is being revealed underneath all of this. You can't keep ignoring an infectious cut by simply putting band aids on it. It's an infection and it needs immediate treatment. The infection in this case is Madden does not have run defensive principles built into the defense. They have acknowledged this. When discussing gap control in 2009, the answer I got was, there are no gaps, guys just move to an area. Something like this you would think deserves immediate attention. Well, we are going on four years...

Let's think about it by entertaining a question. What would have been the effectiveness of Strong Close Toss and Off Tackle back in Madden 10 had the game had run defensive principles built into the defense? Hypothetically, more people would not have had that as a base offense with run principles in place. Instead, it was the offense of choice by a great deal of gamers and even now people still look for strong close as a formation in whatever book they are going to choose. Why? No run defensive principles in the game. Adding run commit is not going to help that. All it is going to do is keep the status quo of playing undisciplined run defense afloat. Second, something that people need on defense would already be there now and they could simply be building on that instead of bringing back gimmicks like run commit to deal with what are probably going to be problems in the game this year. Just seems like a backward process. We'll give you flash up front and work on the substance when we can????

Run Defensive Principles need to be added over gimmick features like Run Commit. And I think they need to do what they can this year before they ship this game either by changing crash left/right and let the DL be detatched from the OL. A few things contribute to why run commit works the way it does.

1) The DL is completely detached from the OL.
2) The movement is extreme in whichever way you call it.
3) The OL just says forget it

All I'm saying is they need to keep #1 and tweak #2 to less extreme movement in the direction and Ditch #3 altogether. If they were to do that without the back side defender logic, I would accept that for this year and just play as the back side defender myself.

It will allow OL and DL ratings to remain in tact, which in turn will begin to help eliminate the all or nothing game play. That is, even if you have the correct call, that does not mean you should automatically stop it. Football is too complex of a game for that.

# 76 speedy9386 @ 06/13/12 02:32 PM

I'm not overly adept with the strategies of football but do teams ever blindly commit to a side like that in real life?

# 77 jfsolo @ 06/13/12 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	Gibs, I was waiting for you to chime in. Frankly, with the language of commit I can see how one would reason that it should be this way. One of the reasons I responded to one of the posters by saying I think we are talking about two different things is because of the language "commit" does put one in that mindset. My picture of commit is different. I don't see how one can commit to anything without making a read. Taking it into another arena of life, a guy or girl who "commits" to someone without asking some questions will more than likely always end up disappointed. Going back to the game, committing to a toss right should not be the same thing as committing to a Wide Zone right. Just thinking it through I think what they need to do is take the crash right and left and make it like the original post. I think run commit the way it is, just should not be in the game at all. My reasoning is as follows: Just because a player tells the defense to sell out on a run to the left does not mean that the offensive line for the player on offense should now forget what their assignments are. Why is my offense punished completely just because the other player has his defense crashing that way? Second, even if a person tells their defense to sell out on a run why should that now mean the ratings are thrown out the window? We see threads every year about how Donny doesn't rate guys right. There is some merit to this. We see threads about how the ratings in this game do not matter? Well with gimmick features like run commit, those people are exactly right. Ratings get throw right out of the window and continues to feed the negative perception of the game. How are players distinguished with a feature like this? Everyone now has the same ability? read, react timing? block shedding tackling ability? All because someone pushed commit right/left/middle? And now the entire offensive line becomes the five stooges and a bumbling TE??? Third, these type of features take us out of a football mindset and into dealing with game play abuses (Yeah I may be being a bit idealistic here in thinking game play faults can be minimized via the developer). I'm just thinking back to the first time run commit appeared in this series and I can be wrong here. If my memory is not failing me the first time it showed up was in 2005 and it only had one function and that was run commit middle to stop the QB sneak and FB dive out of goal line sets that people abused in 2004 online and on the competitive scene. Then in 2005 the juke glitch was introduced and it opened up a new can of worms. Madden 2006 gave us the vision cone in an attempt to deal with drop back passing. Madden 2007 was when I first remember run commit left/right. It might have been in 2006 I'm not for sure. The entire feature is generated around abuses and the feature itself led to abuse as guys would just come out in Quarters (this became a base defense for people and they stayed it in all game long) and run commit and blow up the run and still have great pass coverage. Fourth, something is being revealed underneath all of this. You can't keep ignoring an infectious cut by simply putting band aids on it. It's an infection and it needs immediate treatment. The infection in this case is Madden does not have run defensive principles built into the defense. They have acknowledged this. When discussing gap control in 2009, the answer I got was, there are no gaps, guys just move to an area. Something like this you would think deserves immediate attention. Well, we are going on four years... Let's think about it by entertaining a question. What would have been the effectiveness of Strong Close Toss and Off Tackle back in Madden 10 had the game had run defensive principles built into the defense? Hypothetically, more people would not have had that as a base offense with run principles in place. Instead, it was the offense of choice by a great deal of gamers and even now people still look for strong close as a formation in whatever book they are going to choose. Why? No run defensive principles in the game. Adding run commit is not going to help that. All it is going to do is keep the status quo of playing undisciplined run defense afloat. Second, something that people need on defense would already be there now and they could simply be building on that instead of bringing back gimmicks like run commit to deal with what are probably going to be problems in the game this year. Just seems like a backward process. We'll give you flash up front and work on the substance when we can???? Run Defensive Principles need to be added over gimmick features like Run Commit. And I think they need to do what they can this year before they ship this game either by changing crash left/right and let the DL be detatched from the OL. A few things contribute to why run commit works the way it does. 1) The DL is completely detached from the OL. 2) The movement is extreme in whichever way you call it. 3) The OL just says forget it All I'm saying is they need to keep #1 and tweak #2 to less extreme movement in the direction and Ditch #3 altogether. If they were to do that without the back side defender logic, I would accept that for this year and just play as the back side defender myself. It will allow OL and DL ratings to remain in tact, which in turn will begin to help eliminate the all or nothing game play. That is, even if you have the correct call, that does not mean you should automatically stop it. Football is too complex of a game for that.

What you're saying is of course 1000% correct. At the very least remove the Tecmo style win or lose result from the call. In a big picture analysis, how many man-hours would it take to add gap control/real run defense principles. For something that will never be a marketable feature, too many hours may always make this a cost prohibitive fix.

# 78 LBzrule @ 06/13/12 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedy9386


	I'm not overly adept with the strategies of football but do teams ever blindly commit to a side like that in real life?

Hell No. That's the biggest reason why I wrote this. And I think getting underneath the underpinnings of why EA added it to the game reveals that it is a GIMMICK to deal with abuses in their game. Rather than going to the meat of the problem, they keep putting a band aid on it.

Now I will say that the language and logic makes sense in practical scenarios. For instance, in life, if I am on a field running right then I cannot be going left. That type of logic makes sense. Ahh, but that is not how defensive football works one bit. Was just reading Dean Pees this morning and he had this to say about playing Ravens defense.

Quote:


	“You’ve got to be tough. It’s a basic to playing defense.” “You’ve got know your assignments. You have to know what to do.” “You’ve got to give great effort.”

Credit Baltimoreravens.com Kevin Byrne

The key one for this discussion is the one in the middle. That one right there should tell anyone that there is no such thing is BLINDLY doing whatever. It's always about reading and reacting.

What it boils down to and I am not going to necessarily disagree with gibs, bootz ect because their argument is on a different plane. They arguing from within the Madden program and how things work and how they can be balanced in that regard. I'm arguing about something outside the program that needs to be in it and is a better solution than the gimmick.

# 79 LBzrule @ 06/13/12 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfsolo


	What you're saying is of course 1000% correct. At the very least remove the Tecmo style win or lose result from the call. In a big picture analysis, how many man-hours would it take to add gap control/real run defense principles. For something that will never be a marketable feature, too many hours may always make this a cost prohibitive fix.

You are exactly right here. And that is my biggest fear. Why would something like this need to be marketed? I'm looking at this year and I'm saying , why are QB drop backs and pass trajectories, things that are basic to football just like run principles are, why are they back of the box features? These should be basic.

# 80 speedy9386 @ 06/13/12 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	You are exactly right here. And that is my biggest fear. Why would something like this need to be marketed? I'm looking at this year and I'm saying , why are QB drop backs and pass trajectories, things that are basic to football just like run principles are, why are they back of the box features? These should be basic.

It's been like that for years basic things to football are these grand new features in madden.

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