Madden NFL 25 News Post

Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

10:14 AM - May 28, 2013 by jpdavis82

MyMaddenPad has posted details on formation audibles in Madden NFL 25.

Quote:


	In real life, coaches call plays based on personnel and that�s what EA wants players to do. They want more realistic play calling and more realistic audibles being called. While playing Madden NFL 25 in early May I dove into how this system worked first hand and it worked as expected. Each formation had their own set of audibles you can audible to within that formation. How to set up your audibles is easy too. You would go into the �Coaching Options� under the �Customize� tab and then you go to �Customize Playbooks� which will allow you to update audibles and plays for all playbooks. From this screen you�ll be able to create a playbook or edit an already existing playbook. If you go to the audible tab you�ll see the formation in a big screen that shows you the personnel with 4 audibles for that formation on the right side. Pressing the confirm button takes you to a screen where you can replace one of the audibles with any of the plays in the formation. It�s still unclear if all the plays in that formation will be available or just the plays from that formation in that playbook.

UPDATE: Shopmaster updated the article with some more information.

Kolbe (Madden Creative Director) also chimed in with a few items of interest.

Quote:


	While on the field, you CAN audible to any Formation and Set combination that shares the personnel group you have on the field. For example - lets say you're the Cardinals, because everyone wants to be the Cardinals. You're on the field in Shotgun Bunch (11 personnel) - you complete the previous pass and no huddle. You then bring up the audible menu and you have audibles for: Shotgun - Bunch, Y-Trips HB Wk, Normal HB Wk, Split Close, Trio Singleback - Tight Doubles, Z-Trip In this case, that's a total of 28 audibles at the line - Congratulations, you're Peyton Manning.

Source - Madden NFL 25 Quick Hits: Formation Audibles (MyMaddenPad)

Game: Madden NFL 25Reader Score: 5/10 - Vote Now
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Member Comments

# 61 jpdavis82 @ 05/29/13 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BezO


	Did you know Cobb would be successful lining up at RB prior to last season? This year, when a team inevitably uses some player in an unconventional way, do we wait for EA to update rosters/playbooks? How does this work? Why not allow what the NFL allows? Hell, teams put OTs at TE in certain situations.

I'm guessing you don't know much about Randall Cobb. I believe he is the only player in Kentucky history since Shane Boyd in 2003, to score a passing, receiving, and rushing TD in the same game.

# 62 BezO @ 05/29/13 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdavis82


	Cobb does it quite often, not the most versatile slot WR in the league? He plays WR, QB, and HB.

Not my actual point, but I'll take that.

We don't know what Green Bay could do with Josh Cribbs, a former QB. We don't know what any player can do until we see him do it.

This time last year, OS would frown upon lining Cobb up in all these positions. What I'm saying is allow Madden gamers to do what the NFL allows and let player skill sets play out.

# 63 infemous @ 05/29/13 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BezO


	I watch different games than some of you all. In the games I watch, TEs like Hernandez line up at WR/slot quite often. RBs like Bush line up at WR. Teams put RBs at QB. I can't recall a name right now, but I've seen WRs in the backfield just this past year. Jerry Rice used to do it all the time. OS/EA at it's finest. Fix problems by limitation. No, Turner will not be a threat split out. And there are circumstances where a CB will line up over a split out RB/TE. But let's keep asking for & celebrating the implementation of band-aids.

I agree that we should avoid band aids but the real issue is that Michael Turner should not be effective at WR yet he is. Sproles should be though.

The gameplay isn't at the point where we can freestyle, and you can still have a formation or sub that will allow you to play the guy there, you just won't then be able to audible to a heavy run set and have WRs pancake OLBs and DEs.

# 64 jpdavis82 @ 05/29/13 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BezO


	Not my actual point, but I'll take that. We don't know what Green Bay could do with Josh Cribbs, a former QB. We don't know what any player can do until we see him do it. This time last year, OS would frown upon lining Cobb up in all these positions. What I'm saying is allow Madden gamers to do what the NFL allows and let player skill sets play out.

This may not be possible but hopefully on next gen they can just edit what a player can and cannot do based on what happens in the real NFL season. I.E. If Tavon Austin lines up in the backfield in STL, then in the next roster update it should let you put him in the backfield.

# 65 BezO @ 05/29/13 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdavis82


	I'm guessing you don't know much about Randall Cobb, I believe he is the only player in Kentucky history since Shane Boyd in 2003, to score a passing, receiving, and rushing TD in the same game.

No, I didn't follow him at Kentucky. An no, I didn't know he would be this successful until he actually did it.

Prior to last season, he wasn't doing much if any of that. With a healthy WR core, does he even get the chance?

I'm not debating my knowledge of individual players. I'm talking about coaching & strategies. What you all are celebrating is limiting what NFL teams actually do. We seem to only be acknowledging when stats are produced. Players line up "out of position" quite often. It dictates match ups, dictates coverage & reveals coverage. Of course not every RB that lines up WR is a great route runner with great hands. But you still have to put a defender out there. Who that defender is is key.

# 66 jpdavis82 @ 05/29/13 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BezO


	No, I didn't follow him at Kentucky. An no, I didn't know he would be this successful until he actually did it. Prior to last season, he wasn't doing much if any of that. With a healthy WR core, does he even get the chance? I'm not debating my knowledge of individual players. I'm talking about coaching & strategies. What you all are celebrating is limiting what NFL teams actually do. We seem to only be acknowledging when stats are produced. Players line up "out of position" quite often. It dictates match ups, dictates coverage & reveals coverage. Of course not every RB that lines up WR is a great route runner with great hands. But you still have to put a defender out there. Who that defender is is key.

Cobb is in position to become the #1 or #2 WR at Green Bay in the future, so yes I think he gets the chance. I think he's going to be one of the best WRs in the league in the next 3-5 years.

# 67 BezO @ 05/29/13 01:04 PM

I'll leave it at this...

NFL teams don't limit their formations by personnel.

Most only have a problem with putting players in unconventional positions because other aspects of the game a broken.

I make suggestions/complaints based on realism, not broken elements of the game.

I understand why you all ask for & celebrate this, but it doesn't make it right.

The NFL is changing at record pace. Madden will never catch up using band-aids. We've seen the Wildcat & Spread Option hit the NFL in the last 5 years? RBs at QB & successful running QBs were both complained about prior to seeing it on Sundays. Devs responded. Then these things become common in the NFL and Madden can't handle them because of band-aids.

# 68 infemous @ 05/29/13 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BezO


	No, I didn't follow him at Kentucky. An no, I didn't know he would be this successful until he actually did it. Prior to last season, he wasn't doing much if any of that. With a healthy WR core, does he even get the chance? I'm not debating my knowledge of individual players. I'm talking about coaching & strategies. What you all are celebrating is limiting what NFL teams actually do. We seem to only be acknowledging when stats are produced. Players line up "out of position" quite often. It dictates match ups, dictates coverage & reveals coverage. Of course not every RB that lines up WR is a great route runner with great hands. But you still have to put a defender out there. Who that defender is is key.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with me as a poster here, but I am constantly arguing for adaptive AI and real physics.

until they are implemented I think that this approach is the most palatable way of fixing the audible system. It also gives people a lot more options, beyond limiting them.

Before you were limited to a handful of plays. Now we can change formation when running the hurry up and not have to worry about our star WR being lined up somewhere his skills are wasted.

I personally hated going from 5 wide to a 4 wide 1 RB set only to see the guy I wanted to get the ball line up in the backfield. Now that won't be the case, but I can still give the defense a different look from the previous snap and attack them how I see fit.

Yes, teams aren't restricted like we would be, but we lose something that was being exploited for a system that gives us more options.

Until physics and adpative AI is in the game, we should welcome this, because otherwise the innate flaws that exist currently will continue to be exploited and be an issue for sim gamers.

At the end of the day, everything we see in the NFL is based in reality. Until Madden is based in reality, we can't see everything in the NFL in Madden - at least from a gameplay perspective, there is no excuse for some of the skimping we see in career modes.

# 69 BezO @ 05/29/13 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	So Bezo, you are correct that limiting/disabling formation subs was/is a band-aid instead of addressing player performance limitations at various positions but this is a different matter.

Same matter to me. Audibles are based on the formations/personnel available in the huddle, no? So, If I come out in base personnel, I can't audible to any formation that EA doesn't connect to that personnel.

In the huddle or at the LOS, it's the same limitation. My problem is not with the audibles per se, as their just a product of the playbooks & play calling set up. I have a problem with the entire play calling mechanic.

I have the same problem with this as I had with defensive hot routes / audibles in your thread. The limitations provided / asked for are not aligned with football. They're Madden band-aids based on other broken Madden elements.

Everything is this big, complicated thing that can't be implemented right away... until the masses start asking for it, then all of a sudden, it wasn't so hard after all. Anyone remember EA saying last gen consoles couldn't handle multi-defender tackling? Another game implemented it that same year. EA followed shortly after.

I see the same things here every year. Folks complain about the micro issues. EA fixes the micro issues. Rinse, repeat. Nothing ever gets fixed. But I get it, somewhat. Folks play online against randoms, many of which cheese every facet of the game they can. I just wish folks put in as much complaining/suggestion time towards real fixes as they did these micro issues.

# 70 juicer420 @ 05/29/13 02:31 PM

I can't believe someone would complain about this. This is a huge feature added to the game. We have an entire playbook to use in the hurry up now! What's not to love?

I mean, this is an actual addition to the game and not a rehashed old feature being brought back. It's a step in the right direction. I'm sure you can still move players around all over the field too.

I guess I have no idea why anyone would complain about this. It's so much better and realistic than what we had before. And we haven't even seen it yet. How can anyone criticize this already?

# 71 BezO @ 05/29/13 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juicer420


	...It's so much better and realistic than what we had before. And we haven't even seen it yet. How can anyone criticize this already?

LOL

10 char

# 72 juicer420 @ 05/29/13 02:41 PM

Here's how the entire system should work.

1. We need out of game formation substitutions back.
2. Coaches can then set all their formations as they would like. Even HB in the slot, TE outside, or WR in the backfield etc.
3. Then when you audible, the game can match your current on the field personnel with formations that you set up.

So, if you have one formation, lets say a 3 WR set with 2 backs...but you play a TE as one of the WRs...if you audible, you can either go to a similar formation that you set or to a 2 WR/2 HB/1 TE.

And vice versa. If you come out in a base set, but have a formation with the TE lined up outside, then when you audible...you can go to this variation formation that you decide.

Also, multiple position eligibility is needed.

# 73 BezO @ 05/29/13 02:55 PM

IMO, this is how the system should work...

Select personnel
Select (any) formation
Select play (all possible play types & route combinations should be in all formations)

If you want to audible, same, except personnel of course.

I like formation subs from the huddle, but more for using a 2nd RB, repositioning WRs, etc. It should not be the lone mechanic for unconventional positioning.

# 74 juicer420 @ 05/29/13 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BezO


	IMO, this is how the system should work... Select personnel Select (any) formation Select play (all possible play types & route combinations should be in all formations) If you want to audible, same, except personnel of course. I like formation subs from the huddle, but more for using a 2nd RB, repositioning WRs, etc. It should not be the lone mechanic for unconventional positioning.

If you choose your personnel first, you should be limited to the formations you can select or audible to. The last thing I would want to see is someone choose 4 WR personnel (so I would choose a dime or quarter coverage) and then they come out in a heavy formation with wideouts playing TE and fullback.

I think the limitations need to be there. But on the same token, players with versatility should be able to be used in multiple positions.

Which is why I say they need to add multiple position eligibility. If a dude like Cobb could be a WR and a HB, even with the formation limitations, you could expand your personnel to more formations when he is on the field.

I also like in the huddle subs, but I think we should be able to set our formations before hand. And make changes on the fly in the game.

# 75 juicer420 @ 05/29/13 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyEaglesFly3


	I think the problem is that the real NFL is a game about matchups and weaknesses. In madden those matchups don't matter. Example. Chip Kelly likes TEs because they're too big for CBs and too fast for LBs. in madden the height and weight against the CB really hasn't mattered, and TEs can use their body over CBs. LBs can play good man coverage with any TE in the game as well. If you have a LB mismatched on a WR, the WR can only go deep to beat that LB, into the safeties they go. In the NFL, WRs like the matchup because they know they can run any route against a LB, and it's a mismatch not only in straight speed, but they're much more agile as well. I think making the players smaller/field bigger would fix some of these issues. Videos have confirmed that a 5'0 160 lbs OT with a 5 rating in all attributes can hold his own against Courtney Upshaw, so blocking with a WR with a 50 blocking rating will be able to contribute vs LBs and DEs, that's why I don't want WRs to be able to move in to TE or RB

I agree with this. The ratings, interactions, and physics need to be improved. There's no denying that.

One thing I wish we could receive are scouting reports of opponents. I don't play online head to head often, but I do play in franchise with a handful of friends.

I would love to see scouting reports that showed me the personnel groupings and formations my opponent typically runs. In my "gameplan" I would like to match up those personnel groupings with the defensive personnel I choose.

So in game, when my opponent chooses a specific set, my defensive personnel is picked for me based on what I game planned. Then I can choose the coverage and defensive play I would like to run.

Obviously, allow me to change my mind on the fly if my gameplan I chose isn't working.

That's how they do it in the NFL. Teams are allotted enough time to match personnel changes the opposing team makes on offense. So when certain groupings step onto the field, the defense is sending its counter moves on the field as well.

A scouting report will also let me know that a team will use a Randall Cobb in multiple positions. So I need to decide if my defense can stop the run in the nickel defense or if I need to run my base defense and match up Cobb with a safety or linebacker.

When the Niners played the Packers early in the season...when Cobb was on the field, they ran a nickel defense. Even if he lined up in the backfield. They just stuck Bowman on him and he did an adequate job. This is because the Niners can stop the run in their nickel defense.

These are the type of match ups and match up problems we need to see in Madden. Not trying to defend an out of position player that has more speed than the guy covering him.

# 76 BezO @ 05/29/13 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juicer420


	If you choose your personnel first, you should be limited to the formations you can select or audible to. The last thing I would want to see is someone choose 4 WR personnel (so I would choose a dime or quarter coverage) and then they come out in a heavy formation with wideouts playing TE and fullback.

No need to separate personnel from formations in that case.

IRL, a defensive coordinator is basing his personnel on the offense's personnel (also considering down & distance). He doesn't know what formation the offense will come out in.

Have you not seen a team in base personnel split 1 or both RBs? TE lined up outside a WR? It's not only done with versatile players. It's sometimes done with players that will probably never catch a pass from there just to dictate & reveal coverage. Teams will send their blocking, no hands FB out to WR just to see what the defense will do. Do you send a LB, SS or CB? What does that say about the coverage & who does that leave to cover the other 4 eligible receivers? The RB is not always sent out there because he's the next coming of Marchall Faulk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyEaglesFly3


	I think the problem is that the real NFL is a game about matchups and weaknesses. In madden those matchups don't matter. Example. Chip Kelly likes TEs because they're too big for CBs and too fast for LBs. in madden the height and weight against the CB really hasn't mattered, and TEs can use their body over CBs. LBs can play good man coverage with any TE in the game as well. If you have a LB mismatched on a WR, the WR can only go deep to beat that LB, into the safeties they go. In the NFL, WRs like the matchup because they know they can run any route against a LB, and it's a mismatch not only in straight speed, but they're much more agile as well. I think making the players smaller/field bigger would fix some of these issues. Videos have confirmed that a 5'0 160 lbs OT with a 5 rating in all attributes can hold his own against Courtney Upshaw, so blocking with a WR with a 50 blocking rating will be able to contribute vs LBs and DEs, that's why I don't want WRs to be able to move in to TE or RB

Now we're talking. Why not insist on these fixes instead of the limitations & band-aids? Do we want more realistic blocking or position limitations? More realistic route running or position limitations? More realistic footwork & coverage or position limitations?

But we're asking for & celebrating band-aids to hide these problems instead. How do you build on that? When whatever team uses whatever player in some new way this year and it takes off around the NFL, then what? How did the limitations for the Wildcat work out? How sweet would the spread option already be had we all been asking for the real fixes the last 5 years?

Aim high fellas!

# 77 PSUEagle @ 05/29/13 04:34 PM

I don't see how you can be a proponent of a true simulation game and not see where BezO is coming from.

In real life formations are merely where players align: a team can choose to put players in whatever spot they so desire. For instance, I remember a play where the Vikings split FB Jerome Felton all the way to the field as the #1 WR in an Empty set. Felton had I think two catches on the year to that point, but the defense still had to spread out and honor him. And since a CB aligned over him, it became a clear indicator to QB Christian Ponder that it was zone coverage (if a linebacker/safety had walked out over him it would have almost certainly meant man to man coverage).

The above is but one of hundreds of similar scenarios you can find all throughout the league that most team use (the Saints are probably the very best at doing this, FWIW). Coaches will move guys around all the time in order to force the defense to declare coverage/get them into various checks (i.e. Empty check, 3X1 check, etc).

The problem with this series is that players are hard coded into specific spots based on formation as opposed to dynamically adjusting based on what position they play. So if I call a set with the Patriots using a "TE Wide" type of package (something that puts one of their TE's out as the #1 WR) but want to no huddle afterwards into something like SB Ace because the defense has their nickel package on the field, the game should recognize this and move the TE I have out wide in tight. Unfortunately (or fortunately if you're an acne riddled tourney style douche bag) in this series though a WR will end up as one of the TE's.

The same issue occurs with many other personnel packages in this game. Hell, for a lot of sets things are so badly coded that you don't even need to use packages to get a WR at TE: if you audible from Gun Trio to Gun Doubles a WR (can't remember which one on the depth chart) will actually end up at TE! So because EA can't even properly QC the basics of their very flawed system you end up with crap like Mike Wallace at TE getting a free release each play being covered by a linebacker.

And honestly, I can already see some loopholes in this "fix" that your garden variety online ******s will use to get a Desean Jackson lined up a FB/TE: I guarantee you the "personnel on the field" is coded to what personnel is in the default formation (i.e. Ace Bunch=11 personnel). So when someone uses a package in that set (say "All WR") the game will still recognize the set as 11 personnel (even though 10 personnel is what's actually on the field), thus enabling someone to get a WR lined up at TE. I challenge someone to prove me wrong on this one.

The bottom line is that this series is broken because this entire generation has been nothing but quick fixes, band-aids, and shortcuts. The only way you'll see a game where no one is going to try to get Mike Wallace at TE or Desean Jackson at HB is to build it from the ground up and base it on physics and a defense that has defined "rules" in place that govern how they play run and pass (i.e. not the current system which is basically "run to the footbaw"). Since that will require a massive overhaul, color me pessimistic.

# 78 juicer420 @ 05/29/13 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BezO


	No need to separate personnel from formations in that case. IRL, a defensive coordinator is basing his personnel on the offense's personnel (also considering down & distance). He doesn't know what formation the offense will come out in. Have you not seen a team in base personnel split 1 or both RBs? TE lined up outside a WR? It's not only done with versatile players. It's sometimes done with players that will probably never catch a pass from there just to dictate & reveal coverage. Teams will send their blocking, no hands FB out to WR just to see what the defense will do. Do you send a LB, SS or CB? What does that say about the coverage & who does that leave to cover the other 4 eligible receivers? The RB is not always sent out there because he's the next coming of Marchall Faulk.

You can come out in a base formation and motion the FB out wide. All these things can still be accomplished with motions and substitutions. The limitations are there to prevent unrealistic formations from personnel groupings that you would never see. Sure, there are unconventional sets in the NFL, but I don't see how limiting the audibles denies us from doing all these things you mention.

I guess I just dont understand your gripe with this. This will make the game more realistic IMO. We have a more expansive hurry up/audible system. What's not to like? It's got to be better than what was there previously. I guess I just don't see how this is a band aid fix. This seems like a step in the right direction to me. Hopefully it's well implemented.

I agree that other things need to be fixed and there are more pressing needs, but this is a welcomed addition in my book.

# 79 juicer420 @ 05/29/13 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUEagle


	I don't see how you can be a proponent of a true simulation game and not see where BezO is coming from. In real life formations are merely where players align: a team can choose to put players in whatever spot they so desire. For instance, I remember a play where the Vikings split FB Jerome Felton all the way to the field as the #1 WR in an Empty set. Felton had I think two catches on the year to that point, but the defense still had to spread out and honor him. And since a CB aligned over him, it became a clear indicator to QB Christian Ponder that it was zone coverage (if a linebacker/safety had walked out over him it would have almost certainly meant man to man coverage). The above is but one of hundreds of similar scenarios you can find all throughout the league that most team use (the Saints are probably the very best at doing this, FWIW). Coaches will move guys around all the time in order to force the defense to declare coverage/get them into various checks (i.e. Empty check, 3X1 check, etc). The problem with this series is that players are hard coded into specific spots based on formation as opposed to dynamically adjusting based on what position they play. So if I call a set with the Patriots using a "TE Wide" type of package (something that puts one of their TE's out as the #1 WR) but want to no huddle afterwards into something like SB Ace because the defense has their nickel package on the field, the game should recognize this and move the TE I have out wide in tight. Unfortunately (or fortunately if you're an acne riddled tourney style douche bag) in this series though a WR will end up as one of the TE's. The same issue occurs with many other personnel packages in this game. Hell, for a lot of sets things are so badly coded that you don't even need to use packages to get a WR at TE: if you audible from Gun Trio to Gun Doubles a WR (can't remember which one on the depth chart) will actually end up at TE! So because EA can't even properly QC the basics of their very flawed system you end up with crap like Mike Wallace at TE getting a free release each play being covered by a linebacker. And honestly, I can already see some loopholes in this "fix" that your garden variety online ******s will use to get a Desean Jackson lined up a FB/TE: I guarantee you the "personnel on the field" is coded to what personnel is in the default formation (i.e. Ace Bunch=11 personnel). So when someone uses a package in that set (say "All WR") the game will still recognize the set as 11 personnel (even though 10 personnel is what's actually on the field), thus enabling someone to get a WR lined up at TE. I challenge someone to prove me wrong on this one. The bottom line is that this series is broken because this entire generation has been nothing but quick fixes, band-aids, and shortcuts. The only way you'll see a game where no one is going to try to get Mike Wallace at TE or Desean Jackson at HB is to build it from the ground up and base it on physics and a defense that has defined "rules" in place that govern how they play run and pass (i.e. not the current system which is basically "run to the footbaw"). Since that will require a massive overhaul, color me pessimistic.

I see what you're saying, and that's why I think formation substitutions are sorely needed. And I mean outside of the game and not just on the fly subs.

If you can set your formations, then the game should recognize those as the default. And not necessarily by player, but by position. So if you want your TE in as a wideout in a certain formation, the game should recognize this formation as a formation that fits your personnel group.

I don't know if you guys remember how it used to work...formation subs that is. It used to work where you put specific players in different positions. But what if you could set it up by position.

So lets say, a 3WR/1HB/1TE formation is what you want to adjust. Instead of saying you want Vernon Davis as a wideout and making that sub. Why not just change the wideout to TE1. Then the TE position can be set to TE2. The HB to HB1. And the other 2 receivers as WR1 and WR3 or WR2 and WR1, whatever you want.

The numbers represent the player on the depth chart.

Anyway, you set this formation and when you want to run hurry up or call an audible, the game recognizes that you have 2wrs/2tes/1hb on the field even though you are in a formation that is typically 3wrs. Now you can audible to any formation that you have set up that matches that personnel.

Hopefully I explained that well enough, but essentially it would allow us to call audibles to formations that match the personnel we set.

# 80 TreFacTor @ 05/29/13 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kehlis


	Plus that play isn't something Madden is even trying to stop, that was the Broncos adjusting from a bunch formation with tight ends to a stretch which is a perfectly common play. They are trying to prevent users from adjusting wideouts into bunch formations to exploit the AI which is not something you see.

I would hope that for next gen Madden they dig at the crux of the problem though. The reason people can do it and get away with it is the lack of intelligent ai to recognize the mismatch even though the formation has changed and no subs were made. One of the biggest underlying problems with the game IMHO.

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Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)