NBA 2K15 News Post

NBA 2K15 New Shot Meter Explained

01:49 PM - August 15, 2014 by Beluba

(Promoting this post to the homepage, written by Mike Wang, Sr. Game Designer for NBA 2K15)

Let me clarify up the design of the shot meter. In previous 2K's, shot timing was just another factor within a huge list of other things that spit out a final shot % which we then rolled dice against. So really, it was Real Player % with a bit of help from the user. But the skill of the user had a minimal impact.

In 2K15, all factors that make up a good vs. bad shot get rolled up into a value that then scales the timing window for your jump shooter. So now, timing is a much more crucial factor in whether you make or miss. This puts the onus on the user to execute with more precision and separates the skilled users from the lucky ones. It's actually very similar to the design of Free Throw shooting. You can make the shot if you manage to get perfect timing but your % falls the further you are from the ideal release point. If you're way off, it's a guaranteed miss.

It's also a much more useful feedback system. If you're unfamiliar with your players, it's much easier to get a sense of their timing by glancing at the meter. Also, it's much easier to see how close or off you were with your timing after the fact to help you learn... much more useful than the letter grade system (which is still an option btw.)

My intention was never to make shooting a "meter game." The most successful people in the office are the ones who still watch the shot animations for visual cues of when to release, using the meter only for feedback or for occasional guidance.

I knew there would be some concerns, so let me try to address those now:

- No, you cannot "master" the meter and hit every shot you take
- Yes, you can turn it off in the options menu
- Yes, Real FG% is still an option
- Yes, it is very difficult to get "perfect timing," especially on the higher levels

Hopefully that clears some things up. IMO, shooting is much more engaging now and I think you guys will like the feature.

Game: NBA 2K15Reader Score: 8/10 - Vote Now
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Member Comments

# 101 lvnba @ 08/16/14 07:13 AM

Thanks for the info, Beluba.

Will this be implemented in the online gaming? Specially in the Online Associations.

# 102 Goffs @ 08/16/14 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trackball


	As a fan of Andre Miller (who does not jump), this is welcome.

This goes to any player with a set shot...

# 103 Gramps91 @ 08/16/14 08:19 AM

I'm not sure I like it but at least it's optional so that's cool. I actually really like using Real Player % as I suck at timing. I'll give it a shot though, as long as it's optional I'm happy.

# 104 stillfeelme @ 08/16/14 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beluba


	This is one fundamental difference between 14 and 15 that you should be able to notice. In 14, the player's timing window was directly proportionate to his jumper animation. So typically, guys who elevated more always had a bigger window than set shooters, which made them easier to time. In 15, we decoupled the size of the window from the animation. So better shooters should be easier to shoot with regardless of what animation they're assigned.

Mike the only thing I didn't see explained is does the shot meter change based off location on the court or do you just get one shot meter regardless? Example I will use Bradley Beal and Westbrook.

Westbrook is a better mid range jump shooter % wise than Beal, but Beal is much better 3PT shooter. However overall they shoot the same overall from total jumpers

Westbrook Beal
Mid range 43% 38%
3pt 32% 39%
Overall 38% 38%

# 105 blues rocker @ 08/16/14 08:42 AM

my main concern with shot success is that open shots are rewarded with success, and contested shots are punished with missing. i just want the shot success to make sense. reward people who take the time to get open shots. by allowing too many contested/contact shots go in, it makes success feel arbitrary, and allows people to compete even with bad shot selection. don't allow player ratings to overpower "good basketball." as of now, users can use player ratings and sig skills as a crutch to make up for their bad shot selection.

one of the big questions in video game basketball is: how much should the outcome be determined by the user's choices vs. how much of the outcome should be determined by the player ratings? it is my view that the user's decisions (shot selection, strategy) should be the OVERWHELMING PRIMARY factor in determining success. I have always believed that a good user who picks a mediocre team should still be able to destroy a bad user who picks the Spurs...whoever has better shot selection should win...not whoever has more allstars.

as of now, bad users can kind of compete just by picking a good team and just jacking up random shots (because eventually the player ratings and sig skills take over and they're just going to start hitting shots no matter how bad their shot selection is). this is my main problem with the game (especially online). if a user picks a team with a bunch of allstars who can make contested/contact shots, then shot selection doesn't matter enough. it matters a bit, but i want to see shooting percentages as low as 23-29% (yes, even for the Spurs or Heat) if the user is jacking up all contested/contact shots and isn't even trying to get open (this might be an "unrealistically low" shooting percentage...but unrealistically bad basketball calls for unrealistically low shooting percentages).

# 106 thedream2k13 @ 08/16/14 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beluba


	This is one fundamental difference between 14 and 15 that you should be able to notice. In 14, the player's timing window was directly proportionate to his jumper animation. So typically, guys who elevated more always had a bigger window than set shooters, which made them easier to time. In 15, we decoupled the size of the window from the animation. So better shooters should be easier to shoot with regardless of what animation they're assigned.

Don't make it to easy for them mike.make practice mode essential

# 107 stillfeelme @ 08/16/14 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blues rocker


	my main concern with shot success is that open shots are rewarded with success, and contested shots are punished with missing. i just want the shot success to make sense. reward people who take the time to get open shots. allowing too many contested/contact shots go in makes success feel arbitrary, and allows people to compete even with bad shot selection. don't allow player ratings to overpower "good basketball." as of now, users can use player ratings as a crutch to make up for their bad shot selection.

Bluesrocker,

Keep this in mind though some players actually shoot much better when contested which goes against that train of thought, it is not the majority but it happens. Then there are some players that drop off dramatically when contested like Dragic. Check the link it was from March so it should be based off pretty much 2/3 of the season but you can see the trend. At that time the average % drop for a contest across the league was like 5.4% for jumpers. I am waiting for 2K to implement something like this where they rate the players based off contest, open, spot up and off the dribble separately.

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/0...a_12_twitter_L

# 108 blues rocker @ 08/16/14 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stillfeelme


	Bluesrocker, Keep this in mind though some players actually shoot much better when contested which goes against that train of thought, it is not the majority but it happens. Then there are some players that drop off dramatically when contested like Dragic. Check the link it was from March so it should be based off pretty much 2/3 of the season but you can see the trend. At that time the average % drop for a contest across the league was like 5.4% for jumpers. I am waiting for 2K to implement something like this where they rate the players based off contest, open, spot up and off the dribble separately. http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/0...a_12_twitter_L

yeah, i get that. i get that some players can make contested shots...but how do you deal with this in a video game? i feel like they should lower the success for contested shots a bit more than in real life, in order to prevent people from using player ratings in place of strategy. i get that a real player might be able to hit contested shots all day long...but a user shouldn't be able to do that in a video game...it removes all skill/strategy/decision-making from the equation...and it just becomes about relying on player ratings for success.

maybe there could just be a new mode called "strategy mode" or something...where player ratings and sig skills are toned down and strategy/shot selection are made more important.

# 109 Rockie_Fresh88 @ 08/16/14 09:38 AM

I hope my control shot stick won't keep resetting to camera relative this year. I prefer absolute.

# 110 thedream2k13 @ 08/16/14 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blues rocker


	my main concern with shot success is that open shots are rewarded with success, and contested shots are punished with missing. i just want the shot success to make sense. reward people who take the time to get open shots. by allowing too many contested/contact shots go in, it makes success feel arbitrary, and allows people to compete even with bad shot selection. don't allow player ratings to overpower "good basketball." as of now, users can use player ratings and sig skills as a crutch to make up for their bad shot selection. one of the big questions in video game basketball is: how much should the outcome be determined by the user's choices vs. how much of the outcome should be determined by the player ratings? it is my view that the user's decisions (shot selection, strategy) should be the OVERWHELMING PRIMARY factor in determining success. I have always believed that a good user who picks a mediocre team should still be able to destroy a bad user who picks the Spurs...whoever has better shot selection should win...not whoever has more allstars. as of now, bad users can kind of compete just by picking a good team and just jacking up random shots (because eventually the player ratings and sig skills take over and they're just going to start hitting shots no matter how bad their shot selection is). this is my main problem with the game (especially online). if a user picks a team with a bunch of allstars who can make contested/contact shots, then shot selection doesn't matter enough. it matters a bit, but i want to see shooting percentages as low as 23-29% (yes, even for the Spurs or Heat) if the user is jacking up all contested/contact shots and isn't even trying to get open (this might be an "unrealistically low" shooting percentage...but unrealistically bad basketball calls for unrealistically low shooting percentages).

shouldn't the user shot selection be based off the player they are controlling?I mean you're not going to be shooting midrange jumpers with Reggie Evansand when it comes to award rewarding you with a open jumper using your base shots ratings is the reward

# 111 thedream2k13 @ 08/16/14 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blues rocker


	yeah, i get that. i get that some players can make contested shots...but how do you deal with this in a video game? i feel like they should lower the success for contested shots a bit more than in real life, in order to prevent people from using player ratings in place of strategy. i get that a real player might be able to hit contested shots all day long...but a user shouldn't be able to do that in a video game...it removes all skill/strategy/decision-making from the equation...and it just becomes about relying on player ratings for success. maybe there could just be a new mode called "strategy mode" or something...where player ratings and sig skills are toned down and strategy/shot selection are made more important.

but the players are dictated by the ratings determine the the shot success.how do you separate and elite three point shooter from a mediocre three point shooter if you don't have ratings that determine their success probability

# 112 Optik @ 08/16/14 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stillfeelme


	Bluesrocker, Keep this in mind though some players actually shoot much better when contested which goes against that train of thought, it is not the majority but it happens. Then there are some players that drop off dramatically when contested like Dragic. Check the link it was from March so it should be based off pretty much 2/3 of the season but you can see the trend. At that time the average % drop for a contest across the league was like 5.4% for jumpers. I am waiting for 2K to implement something like this where they rate the players based off contest, open, spot up and off the dribble separately. http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/0...a_12_twitter_L

Incomplete analysis. Pierce was shooting with Kyle Lowry contesting him. It would be far less likely for him to make it if Durant was contesting him. Also, there are clearly different levels of how contested a shot is that wasn't accounted for.

# 113 Mintsa @ 08/16/14 11:16 AM

I just want to chime in here and just say this is a great thread. Devs breaking down/clarifying a new feature. 2k gamers breaking down feedback......GREAT READ!!!!

This is what OS is all about.

Thanks....please continue.

# 114 23 @ 08/16/14 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beluba


	I've been meaning to work this into the shot system for a while but it keeps falling off the feature list. Mostly because you don't see it often on "regular" J's. And to make it look right you'd have to blend out of the normal shot pretty early, before the player even reaches the apex.

You're right Its definitely not a common shot...I thought about it happening on halfcourt heaves before anything else but nevertheless thanks for answering.

# 115 Beluba @ 08/16/14 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stillfeelme


	Mike the only thing I didn't see explained is does the shot meter change based off location on the court or do you just get one shot meter regardless? Example I will use Bradley Beal and Westbrook. Westbrook is a better mid range jump shooter % wise than Beal, but Beal is much better 3PT shooter. However overall they shoot the same overall from total jumpers Westbrook Beal Mid range 43% 38% 3pt 32% 39% Overall 38% 38%

The shot meter takes everything into account. Think of it this way. Take the player's real FG% from any given situation: factoring in shot defense, his range, hot/cold zones, fatigue, ratings, etc. and turn that into a target. The bigger the value, the larger the target. Now, it's your job to hit that target. So Russ' elbow jumper is much easier to time than Beal's, and vice versa at the 3pt line.

# 116 JerzeyReign @ 08/16/14 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beluba


	The shot meter takes everything into account. Think of it this way. Take the player's real FG% from any given situation: factoring in shot defense, his range, hot/cold zones, fatigue, ratings, etc. and turn that into a target. The bigger the value, the larger the target. Now, it's your job to hit that target. So Russ' elbow jumper is much easier to time than Beal's, and vice versa at the 3pt line.

Even though you didn't answer/quote my posts - this answers my questions. This system seems like it could also lower the value of zig zag cheese shot percentages as well (hopefully footplanting was tweaked but thats a topic for another day).

# 117 Beluba @ 08/16/14 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blues rocker


	my main concern with shot success is that open shots are rewarded with success, and contested shots are punished with missing. i just want the shot success to make sense. reward people who take the time to get open shots. by allowing too many contested/contact shots go in, it makes success feel arbitrary, and allows people to compete even with bad shot selection. don't allow player ratings to overpower "good basketball." as of now, users can use player ratings and sig skills as a crutch to make up for their bad shot selection. one of the big questions in video game basketball is: how much should the outcome be determined by the user's choices vs. how much of the outcome should be determined by the player ratings? it is my view that the user's decisions (shot selection, strategy) should be the OVERWHELMING PRIMARY factor in determining success. I have always believed that a good user who picks a mediocre team should still be able to destroy a bad user who picks the Spurs...whoever has better shot selection should win...not whoever has more allstars. as of now, bad users can kind of compete just by picking a good team and just jacking up random shots (because eventually the player ratings and sig skills take over and they're just going to start hitting shots no matter how bad their shot selection is). this is my main problem with the game (especially online). if a user picks a team with a bunch of allstars who can make contested/contact shots, then shot selection doesn't matter enough. it matters a bit, but i want to see shooting percentages as low as 23-29% (yes, even for the Spurs or Heat) if the user is jacking up all contested/contact shots and isn't even trying to get open (this might be an "unrealistically low" shooting percentage...but unrealistically bad basketball calls for unrealistically low shooting percentages).

Strategy and shot selection are absolutely more important than stick skills. Da Czar has proven this and caused me to have to re-tune the shot timing system several times to compensate. He knows the plays inside and out like the back of his hand and can breakdown the defense better than anyone I've seen play our game. He's no slouch on the sticks either so it was a deadly combo. We went back and forth with several iterations and I'm confident we're in a good spot with the balance. At least, I haven't heard any complaints from him recently.

If you run plays and get fantastic looks but suck at timing you can still do pretty well. If you take bad shots but are amazing at timing, you'll do okay for a while but will probably lose. If you can manage to do both like Czar you'll be vicious in 15. If you're bad at both, then you might have to bump the diff. to Rookie.

# 118 Beluba @ 08/16/14 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerzeyReign


	Even though you didn't answer/quote my posts - this answers my questions. This system seems like it could also lower the value of zig zag cheese shot percentages as well (hopefully footplanting was tweaked but thats a topic for another day).

Zigzag cheese is gone. We specifically put in other measures to counter it.

# 119 Beluba @ 08/16/14 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guard-ian


	What about post shots and lay ups? is it the meter there too? In other 2k iterations I always had the feeling that timing didn't matter a lot in those kind of shots... Cheers! ;-)

The meter is active for all manually releasable shots, including post jumpers. But not layups. My shots engineer and I experimented with it and decided the world is not ready for that.

# 120 quehouston @ 08/16/14 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beluba


	Zigzag cheese is gone. We specifically put in other measures to counter it.

Thank goodness. This was a cheesers go to strategy, and there was really nothing we could do to stop it if we are dedicated on-ball defenders online having to fight against lag.

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