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NBA 2K15 News Post


(Promoting this post to the homepage, written by Mike Wang, Sr. Game Designer for NBA 2K15)

Let me clarify up the design of the shot meter. In previous 2K's, shot timing was just another factor within a huge list of other things that spit out a final shot % which we then rolled dice against. So really, it was Real Player % with a bit of help from the user. But the skill of the user had a minimal impact.

In 2K15, all factors that make up a good vs. bad shot get rolled up into a value that then scales the timing window for your jump shooter. So now, timing is a much more crucial factor in whether you make or miss. This puts the onus on the user to execute with more precision and separates the skilled users from the lucky ones. It's actually very similar to the design of Free Throw shooting. You can make the shot if you manage to get perfect timing but your % falls the further you are from the ideal release point. If you're way off, it's a guaranteed miss.

It's also a much more useful feedback system. If you're unfamiliar with your players, it's much easier to get a sense of their timing by glancing at the meter. Also, it's much easier to see how close or off you were with your timing after the fact to help you learn... much more useful than the letter grade system (which is still an option btw.)

My intention was never to make shooting a "meter game." The most successful people in the office are the ones who still watch the shot animations for visual cues of when to release, using the meter only for feedback or for occasional guidance.

I knew there would be some concerns, so let me try to address those now:

- No, you cannot "master" the meter and hit every shot you take
- Yes, you can turn it off in the options menu
- Yes, Real FG% is still an option
- Yes, it is very difficult to get "perfect timing," especially on the higher levels

Hopefully that clears some things up. IMO, shooting is much more engaging now and I think you guys will like the feature.

Game: NBA 2K15Reader Score: 8/10 - Vote Now
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Member Comments
# 141 quehouston @ 08/16/14 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillfeelme
From that last response he responded to me I get it now. The meter is just the teaching tool to show you which particular shots you have a hard time hitting the particular shot. The target to hit perfect release will be harder, or easier depending on all of those factors he mentioned, open, contest, shot fatigue, hot spot, cold spot and rating.

The game is teaching casuals, sim guys and we don't even realize it yet. The guys who know the releases and knows the plays how to execute the offense to the strength of their players will be rewarded the most. The game is rewarding your NBA knowledge as long as you can transfer some of your stick skills as well.
This seems to be the case, and I love it.

I just hope the latency adjustments they made online to make the meter "more forgiving" than offline doesn't bail people out. I hope its just as challenging online as it is offline, and good defense is rewarded.
 
# 142 23 @ 08/16/14 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillfeelme
From that last response he responded to me I get it now. The meter is just the teaching tool to show you which particular shots you have a hard time hitting the particular shot. The target to hit perfect release will be harder, or easier depending on all of those factors he mentioned, open, contest, shot fatigue, hot spot, cold spot and rating.

The game is teaching casuals, sim guys and we don't even realize it yet. The guys who know the releases and knows the plays how to execute the offense to the strength of their players will be rewarded the most. The game is rewarding your NBA knowledge as long as you can transfer some of your stick skills as well.
To me with Russ' example it will stop every player from looking alike no matter where they are on the floor. Jimmy Butler's abilities won't be as on point as Melo's in the same situation. You can try but the level of success is much much lower.

So the example, you know RWB's shot at the elbow/ft line area is definitely him...but try doing that same thing with Kyrie Irving and the results just arent the same so RWB looks like RWB more than anyone else.
 
# 143 Sundown @ 08/16/14 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillfeelme
The game is teaching casuals, sim guys and we don't even realize it yet. The guys who know the releases and knows the plays how to execute the offense to the strength of their players will be rewarded the most. The game is rewarding your NBA knowledge as long as you can transfer some of your stick skills as well.
This is a great point. Up to now, 2K has only informed you of bad shots after the fact somewhat vaguely and rewarded you too often for them. It didn't reinforce the idea that a shot might be bad earlier, though sim guys and basketball nerds can see the bad shot coming. The meter gives you much more dynamic information even as you're setting up the shot.

It makes me wonder what would happen if the ball handler had the shot meter on all the time that constantly fluctuated. Could be too much handholding and visually distracting however

Does the shot meter change as defenders close out for guys with long animations?
 
# 144 Sundown @ 08/16/14 03:29 PM
Speaking of timing of animations, I always thought it a bit silly that guys prided themselves in knowing releases and wanting the game to be less accessible for those who didn't when knowing a player's release has no real basketball analog. It's really kind of a weird meta game for a basketball sim.

Sure, it's nice and rewarding knowing your own team, but it's just jarring being incompetent switching to another, at least for a bit. I always have to apologize for being crap playing a different team, or apologize for the game when my opponent doesn't know the releases of theirs. My friend recently told me I changed his 2K life when I'd simply pointed out the flashing circle for learning releases put in a few years ago. I know some folks didn't want that in either. :P
 
# 145 jfsolo @ 08/16/14 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundown
Speaking of timing of animations, I always thought it a bit silly that guys prided themselves in knowing releases and wanting the game to be less accessible for those who didn't when knowing a player's release has no real basketball analog. It's really kind of a weird meta game for a basketball sim.

Sure, it's nice and rewarding knowing your own team, but it's just jarring being incompetent switching to another, at least for a bit. I always have to apologize for being crap playing a different team, or apologize for the game when my opponent doesn't know the releases of theirs. My friend recently told me I changed his 2K life when I'd simply pointed out the flashing circle for learning releases put in a few years ago. I know some folks didn't want that in either. :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beluba
Zigzag cheese is gone. We specifically put in other measures to counter it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beluba
Strategy and shot selection are absolutely more important than stick skills. Da Czar has proven this and caused me to have to re-tune the shot timing system several times to compensate. He knows the plays inside and out like the back of his hand and can breakdown the defense better than anyone I've seen play our game. He's no slouch on the sticks either so it was a deadly combo. We went back and forth with several iterations and I'm confident we're in a good spot with the balance. At least, I haven't heard any complaints from him recently.

If you run plays and get fantastic looks but suck at timing you can still do pretty well. If you take bad shots but are amazing at timing, you'll do okay for a while but will probably lose. If you can manage to do both like Czar you'll be vicious in 15. If you're bad at both, then you might have to bump the diff. to Rookie.
I can't put a percentage on it, but for many online players, it being a contest of hand-eye coordination and controller wizardry, is far and away of paramount importance. Running sets to get quality looks and playing to the strength of your personnel is of far less consequence. Someone else know all the plays of a team, in their opinion is not the same kind of accomplishment as them know the release points of all the players on a team. In other words stick skills>knowledge base.

That why those quotes by Beluba are so interesting. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that those us who are basically just Association players, would maybe play online some/more if controller wizardry didn't allow players to have such great success even if they play nonsensically.
 
# 146 Sundown @ 08/16/14 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfsolo
That why those quotes by Beluba are so interesting. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that those us who are basically just Association players, would maybe play online some/more if controller wizardry didn't allow players to have such great success even if they play nonsensically.
See, it's not even just controller wizardry that wins online games. It's knowing how to cheese, what animations to exploit, what overpowered defensive set to leave on, and what real life basketball instincts to ignore.

Of course stick skills are required-- you need fast response and instincts to pull off some NBA level playmaking-- and I've been destroyed by guys with great iso stick skills while also playing a game that actually kind of resembles real life basketball. Competent isomotion also requires a fair amount of stick finess.

It's when cheese and meta-gaming matters more than sound basketball decisions and iq that bothers me and drags the game down online. I love that this year's design is focused on combatting much of it. I also hope these measures aren't nerfed online because last year's online play wasn't as balanced or realistic as we had hoped.
 
# 147 24ct @ 08/16/14 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beluba
The meter is active for all manually releasable shots, including post jumpers. But not layups. My shots engineer and I experimented with it and decided the world is not ready for that.
But it's coming???

As an option for layups next year maybe??

*prays* lol

But really...if you added this on layups this would help define skill vs luck
 
# 148 alabamarob @ 08/16/14 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundown
See, it's not even just controller wizardry that wins online games. It's knowing how to cheese, what animations to exploit, what overpowered defensive set to leave on, and what real life basketball instincts to ignore.

Of course stick skills are required-- you need fast response and instincts to pull off some NBA level playmaking-- and I've been destroyed by guys with great iso stick skills while also playing a game that actually kind of resembles real life basketball. Competent isomotion also requires a fair amount of stick finess.

It's when cheese and meta-gaming matters more than sound basketball decisions and iq that bothers me and drags the game down online. I love that this year's design is focused on combatting much of it. I also hope these measures aren't nerfed online because last year's online play wasn't as balanced or realistic as we had hoped.
You and the post before you have just made the best posts (outside of dev posts) of the day. I have always broken the player types into two groups. Video game guys who want total control, total player movement control, immediate response time, dribble stick quickness 120 percent on ball defense as guys who place stick skills first, because stick skills has little to do with basketball iq and strategy. Stick skills are the equivalent of athleticism to me. You need a certain level to get into the league but it shouldnt make gerald green better than larry bird.

The second group is the nba guy who only plays sports video games and his main interest is exploting mismatches, implementing strategy and trying to replicate what he or she sees when they watch games. This guy is usually older and a little grumpier when it comes to playstyle.

The video game guys know all the winning animations and ins and outs of the game. They dominate online bball. The grumpy nba guys can compete with startegy and bball knowledge, but 2k over the years have always made stick skills most important.

I dont mind losing to a guy that knows bball and happens to have better stick skills than me, but when it is someone who drops 30 points a game with dennis schroeder or cartier martin because they have mastered shot releases, animations and can score 100 plus while running zero offense. It makes me realize why I still play 2k11 every summer. Hopefully, 2k15 will bring strategy back.


Beluba seems to be taking away the animation abuse and I appreciate that. 2k15 seems to be what we all want.
 
# 149 Eman5805 @ 08/16/14 05:19 PM
Zigzag? The heck's that?
 
# 150 blues rocker @ 08/16/14 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beluba
Strategy and shot selection are absolutely more important than stick skills. Da Czar has proven this and caused me to have to re-tune the shot timing system several times to compensate. He knows the plays inside and out like the back of his hand and can breakdown the defense better than anyone I've seen play our game. He's no slouch on the sticks either so it was a deadly combo. We went back and forth with several iterations and I'm confident we're in a good spot with the balance. At least, I haven't heard any complaints from him recently.

If you run plays and get fantastic looks but suck at timing you can still do pretty well. If you take bad shots but are amazing at timing, you'll do okay for a while but will probably lose. If you can manage to do both like Czar you'll be vicious in 15. If you're bad at both, then you might have to bump the diff. to Rookie.
the part in bold above is where i have an issue.

you shouldn't be able to "do okay" by taking bad shots....you should do terribly. my opinion is the game doesn't punish bad shots enough....so people are able to hang around in games and stay within 10 points by taking bad shots...when they should be getting blown out by 20-30 points. if you take bad shots, you shouldn't "probably lose," you should DEFINITELY lose...and lose by a lot. i should also clarify that on this topic i'm mostly referring to ONLINE play.

this area is where i really liked 2k11. users who took bad shots would quickly get down by 15-20 points and had no chance of coming back if they continued their bad shot selection...now the same type of user usually gets a few comeback boosts that allow them to stay within 10 points or so.

bring back blowouts...blowouts are warranted when a lot of bad shots are being taken. i should be able to destroy an opponent by 30 points if he's just jacking up garbage and ramming into the paint...problem is, sometimes i only beat him by 9-12 points. that dude should be getting BLOWN OUT by 20-30 every game. instead, he's able to hang around in games and even win sometimes...by taking ALL BAD SHOTS. not cool. i understand casuals have fragile egos and they need to feel like they're doing well to keep them playing the game. i get it...it's business - that's how you keep people buying the game. people won't keep buying a game if they feel like they're terrible at it...but how are these people ever gonna learn if they're able to hang in games and stay within 10 points by playing terrible basketball? make it tough again. difficult games like Demon's Souls are on the rise...i'm sick of forgiving games. let's challenge people again rather than coddling them.
 
# 151 jfsolo @ 08/16/14 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundown
See, it's not even just controller wizardry that wins online games. It's knowing how to cheese, what animations to exploit, what overpowered defensive set to leave on, and what real life basketball instincts to ignore.

Of course stick skills are required-- you need fast response and instincts to pull off some NBA level playmaking-- and I've been destroyed by guys with great iso stick skills while also playing a game that actually kind of resembles real life basketball. Competent isomotion also requires a fair amount of stick finess.

It's when cheese and meta-gaming matters more than sound basketball decisions and iq that bothers me and drags the game down online. I love that this year's design is focused on combatting much of it. I also hope these measures aren't nerfed online because last year's online play wasn't as balanced or realistic as we had hoped.
"Controller Wizardry" is my own euphemism for cheese and exploitive play, so I agree with you 100 percent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blues rocker
the part in bold above is where i have an issue. you shouldn't be able to "do okay" by taking bad shots....you should do terribly. my opinion is the game doesn't punish bad shots enough....so people are able to hang around in games and stay within 10 points by taking bad shots...when they should be getting blown out by 20 points. if you take bad shots, you shouldn't "probably lose," you should DEFINITELY lose...and lose by a lot.

this area is where i really liked 2k11. users who took back shots would quickly get down by 15-20 points and had no chance of coming back if they continued their bad shot selection...now the same type of user usually gets a few comeback boosts that allow them to stay within 10 points or so. bring back blowouts...blowouts are warranted when a lot of bad shots are being taken. i should be able to destroy an opponent by 30 points if he's just jacking up garbage and ramming into the paint...problem is, sometimes i only beat him by 9-12 points. that dude should be getting BLOWN OUT by 20-30 every game. instead, he's able to hang around in games and even win sometimes...by taking ALL BAD SHOTS.
I agree, but it seems that since a lot of the people, maybe even the majority(sad to say)who buy this game, play that style of ball, they're not going to completely alienate that part of their consumer base by having them be totally unable to compete and many times win, in spite of their poor decision making. It seems as if they were much harder of that kind of play a few years back, but backed off, probably because there was a public outcry bemoaning the failure levels that you mention.

I don't like it, but I get why they do it, so that's why, IMO, random online games will never be a plus gaming experience. They do seem to be eliminating the most egregious, non basketball type exploits, however, so the experience isn't totally unpalatable.
 
# 152 turty11 @ 08/16/14 06:33 PM
are people really complaining about being good with the r-stick is cheese or did i miss-read some posts?

please clarify it in 1-3 sentences not a paragraph (my eyes hurt from the DMV)
 
# 153 bls @ 08/16/14 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beluba
Strategy and shot selection are absolutely more important than stick skills. Da Czar has proven this and caused me to have to re-tune the shot timing system several times to compensate. He knows the plays inside and out like the back of his hand and can breakdown the defense better than anyone I've seen play our game. He's no slouch on the sticks either so it was a deadly combo. We went back and forth with several iterations and I'm confident we're in a good spot with the balance. At least, I haven't heard any complaints from him recently.

If you run plays and get fantastic looks but suck at timing you can still do pretty well. If you take bad shots but are amazing at timing, you'll do okay for a while but will probably lose. If you can manage to do both like Czar you'll be vicious in 15. If you're bad at both, then you might have to bump the diff. to Rookie.
Have you guys fixed plays breaking? You mentioned Da Czar running plays, but im unable to do so in online games due to plays constantly breaking.
 
# 154 bls @ 08/16/14 06:42 PM
And does this shot meter also tie in with signature skill shot % increases?
 
# 155 alabamarob @ 08/16/14 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by turty11
are people really complaining about being good with the r-stick is cheese or did i miss-read some posts?

please clarify it in 1-3 sentences not a paragraph (my eyes hurt from the DMV)
I think people are saying that you shouldnt be able to make a player shoot better than he can in real life no matter how good your skills are.

At least that was my point.
 
# 156 silverskier @ 08/16/14 07:12 PM
I understant that nba2k is a franchise that have a lot of users/fans that play the game like it was nba jam, and as maximum they set a p&r to get to the rim. The casual and not-so-casual players/youtubers - it is a fact, you can see it in their videos - that play that way have their right to do it. BUT the ones who wanna play like real basketball executing plays and sets to actually be able to score, the ones who want to play defense making manual D helps and trying to read the offense of the opponent as he plays real basketball, that ones have also "their right" to play the game like it was a real basketball match.

SO, if 2K wanna catter casual and non-casual-but-not-sim-players, and they also wanna take into account the sim ones, why not give two modes in the same game? In a more explicit way than nowadays at least. The first one, 'ala' nba jam, wihtout having to execute plays and only isolating or doing one simple p&r; the second one, executing plays from the simplest to the most complex.

Anyway... the shot meter seems to be pretty interesting, =)
 
# 157 jersez @ 08/16/14 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alabamarob
I think people are saying that you shouldnt be able to make a player shoot better than he can in real life no matter how good your skills are.

At least that was my point.
I think that's unrealistic and user skill should play a role in those abnormal games from role player or great scorers. A role player can have those games where they look like the best player on the floor and great scorers can have games where they struggling. I understand the point you're making and I agree with it in terms of riding 2k of "2k players", like jr smith. But getting rid of the possibility for a player to go off or struggle isn't the answer to me.
 
# 158 Smirkin Dirk @ 08/16/14 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eman5805
Zigzag? The heck's that?
I was wondering the exact same thing. Im an offline player so I assume its a reference to something online?
 
# 159 alabamarob @ 08/16/14 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jersez
I think that's unrealistic and user skill should play a role in those abnormal games from role player or great scorers. A role player can have those games where they look like the best player on the floor and great scorers can have games where they struggling. I understand the point you're making and I agree with it in terms of riding 2k of "2k players", like jr smith. But getting rid of the possibility for a player to go off or struggle isn't the answer to me.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I have no problem with a role player getting hot and getting a ratings boost when he gets hot. My point was you shouldnt go from being a 70 three point shooter to a 75 three point shooter simply because a person has mastered the shot release. Because, that shooter would always become a 75 shooter hot or not and the ratings would be irrelevant at that point.. My bad if I wasnt clear.
 
# 160 Mr2KImpossible @ 08/16/14 08:08 PM
Lots of info, thanks!
 


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