Jason Rupert's Answers Part 3- From the EA Forums thread - Bahnzo's Blog

Bahnzo's Blog

Jason Rupert's Answers Part 3- From the EA Forums thread

Posted on February 3, 2009 at 01:30 AM.

PART 1 HERE
PART 2 HERE

> For gameplay I would just like to see some basic
> rules enforced.
>
> 1) What is up with offsides. If a team is offsides
> and the puck is shot on net where the goalie is
> forced to make a save. Its an automatic whistle.
>
> 2) Please for offsides make the faceoff where its
> suppose to be from the pass was made. If i
> currently pass the puck from my own zone to an
> offsides man in the offensive zone the faceoff should
> be where the pass came from not on the offensive
> blueline.

Added to the list of things to do. Also offside getting called if the attacking team makes no effort to get onside, and deliberate offsides going all the way to the other end.

> I would like to see players finish their checks along
> the boards . Most of the time you just bounce off the
> player you try to hit. Just a nice solid check that
> makes the boards rattle without anybody flipping
> upside down . And can you do anything about players
> freezing on one-timers.

I agree and think that getting the CPU players to play more of a physical game will be a nice step towards making them feel more realistic and closer to a human opponent. I've never been a fan of the over-the-top (literally some times) hits. They should be reserved for extremely rare cases.

Player's freezing on one-timers is a known bug and it is on the list of things to look into for NHL10.

> Not sure if this is something you deal with as far as
> programming game play. Yet perhaps you could shed
> some light on this Jason as it refers to the actual
> time of playing the game itself.
>
> Refs and linesmen. Granted it's not a crucial element
> per say to the mechanics of the game, but more of the
> feel. Was there ever talk of adding 2 head refs and
> linesmen or this something that might hamper the
> overall FPS or something else of the game?

Framerate is a small factor in this, but not the main reason why we haven't focused on it. Mostly it is just that the rest of the game isn't good enough yet that this has made it to the top of the priority list.

> myself and my clubmates thought of an interesting
> EASHL/OTP addition:
>
> human refs. have a rating system based on % of calls
> made. icing/offside would still be covered
> automatically, but when a stick/checking infraction
> occurs you hit a button to throw your arm up in the
> air to call it. i do realize of course that the
> possibility for "partial" refs would be great and
> would most likely largely compromise it. just one of
> those classic "what if" scenarios. just thought id
> let it out there.
>
> or just a lil tweaking of the AI
> officiating.....either way

I am sure it would be funny, once anyway.

An idea along these lines that I prefer is a spectator mode. I would love to watch games between the good teams, and the transparency would probably make people a little more hesitant to use exploits or cheat. To add to the fun of it a spectator could control how the crowd reacts and the teams could hear it, and maybe teams could receive some sort of points that could be spent on special stuff like extra jerseys or arena art, etc..

A user controlled ref seems like a recipe for disaster in ranked games, it would lead to more exploits, not less (like spectators) so I would probably steer clear of it because it isn't enough value for just unranked games.

Both of these idea come up in brainstorming every year but neither has been advanced very seriously yet.

> hey jason. what ever happened to players being
> dumped over the bench? i know thats being added in
> the 3 on 3 but it is in real hockey too. that was
> last in the sega and SNES versions. also breaking
> glass with slapshots and or body checks as well. i
> had an adult safe game tonight and i got ran over
> playing the puck (i'm a goalie) and what ever
> happened to be able to knock the goalie over either
> intentional or accidental.

Our focus recently has been to put as much effort as possible into core gameplay -- making sure we get the common situations in a hockey game right. As we improve that I think that the omission of secondary elements of the game (like refs) and more rare events like broken glass and players over the boards will become a higher priority.

We have to be really careful with anything that allows you to interfere with the goalie because it would be something that could easily end up being an exploit. When we do tackle goalie collisions it will have to be something we spend a lot of time on to ensure that it is done well because goalies are so central to the balance of gameplay.

> Redshirt, how about a pre game sakte you can add for
> the patch? That way make it like 1:00 Minutes or 2.
> You can see lag or if you have to go eliminating the
> 5:00 rule.
>
> Or make it so that if you are ever winning by two
> goals and you need to leave or something, your team
> can quit?
> So lets say 4-2 in the second. I have to go eat. My
> team is winning if I quit my team shouldn't be
> getting a lost, they should just make it so that the
> game never happend you know what I mean? Or, once a
> goal has been scored the losing team can't quit.

That is a good idea but it would have been too big a change for the patch. I am in favour of changing the 5:00 rule.

I used to have problems with my connection and would get losses on disconnects once in awhile when I was ahead, so I also sympathize with the idea of being able to disconnect without penalty if you are ahead -- but at the same time I think that people should have to finish a game that they started.

There is always the Mutual Quit option in Versus -- if you are ahead a reasonable opponent would likely agree to it.

> Yes, I like to use the hold/hook button, because it
> can be effective against the CPU, but having it start
> a fight also makes it useless in multiplayer games
> because of the chance of it starting a fight at a bad
> time in the game, which can negatively affect a
> player's team play in club games.

Slashing sort of got lost in the shuffle. I am not too sure how much I want it back. A stick lift from behind the player (where it currently lifts the stick right up through the opponent as someone has pointed out) could become a hook or slash and have the same effect: obstruct the opponent with a high probability of getting a penalty.

> Another question: Do you actually work on the
> fighting engine itself? If so, I would hope to see
> more of a strategic element, with more grabbing of
> the jersey, because you almost never see a fight
> where one haymaker ends it. I know you can't comment
> on 2010, I'm just expressing opinion on the fighting,
> but do you actually work hands-on with the fighting
> element of the game?

No, I haven't programmed any of the fighting.

> Here is something I have always wondered. The wrist
> shot power and acc obviously affect the wrist shot,
> and the same for the slap power and acc but what
> about snap shots/one timers?
>
> The shot I use mostly is finishing the one timer by
> just pushing up. Do any of the above categories
> affect that shot? I don't want to waste points.
>
> Thanks

Wrist shot accuracy affects all shots except slap shots. So if the one-timer is a slap shot it will use the slap shot attrib, otherwise it will use the wrist shot attribs.

> Relating to the attribute question, what does speed
> do for Goalies?
>
> I have heard it is more of a reflex attribute for
> your glove and blocker, is this true?

Speed would be how fast he moves himself around the crease.

> - More realistic goaltending. Right now the cpu
> goalies stop almost anything that isn't a "cheese"
> goal which naturally promotes people to take the easy
> way out, and to a degree it's hard to blame them.
> It's extremely rare to score on a wrist shot from
> inside the blue line unless it's a "curve" shot which
> is aiming for one specific part of the net (top
> opposite corner). You can't really aim anywhere else
> and expect it to go in with any kind of consistency
> at all. In the NHL they are capable of beating the
> goalie from nearly any given angle. This is
> definitely a tough area for you guys I realize as you
> don't want to make it too easy to score. The key in
> my opinion is making the goalies naturally adapt in
> more situations. I'd like to see them cheat to the
> middle of the net more on a 2 on 0 against a team
> that has already beat him earlier on a cross crease
> one timer. Of course that would leave him vulnerable
> to being sniped, but that's the price you pay. I'm
> afraid that if the AI goalies continue to stay
> predictable in future releases then cheesy play will
> continue to reign king.

The patch tuning should improve this a bit, but I agree that the goalie needs to be more dynamic, mixing up his behaviour so that there aren't such obvious patterns in where the weaknesses are.

> - Speaking of more realistic goaltending, I'd like to
> see AI goalies play the puck in their own zone much
> more often. All NHL goaltenders routinely do this, so
> should the ones in NHL 09. Also, goalies should have
> better rebound control in general. However rebounds
> should be easier to bang home than it is now.
> Currently it's very akward trying to put in rebounds
> and very frustrating.

There are attribute based differences between goalies that affect how aggressively they play the puck. If you play with Turco or Brodeur (for example) you should definitely see them coming out more. They need to be improved, esp. how they handle the trapezoid region.

> > The first patch added a change so that if you
> hold
> > Vision Control (Left Trigger) while trying to
> shoot
> > the loose puck in it will not throw a check.
>
> Thanks for the response Jason. You learn something
> new everyday. I appreciate your response.

By the way, this idea as a solution to the problem came from the community. Not that it is necessarily the ultimate solution (earlier discussion in this thread has covered other ideas) but it has been a useful stop-gap and code-wise a simple enough fix that it could be done in a patch with very little risk.

I know several people thought of it, but props to Qb on the Operation Sports forum who first brought the idea to my attention.

> Im gonna keep mine short and sweet. FIX THE BS. JUST
> FIX IT.Im not going into detail bout this and that.
> Stop the 99 glitch Fix the cheese goals its frickin
> ********.til then ill kepp useing NHL09 as a coaster.
> shoot maybe even a frisbee. Not like you guys care
> you all ready got my money. PEACE and GOOD LUCK MR
> RUPERT

The patch that we have been working on for the last month is all about fixing the BS -- which I hate too. I welcome the criticism of game but I have to object to the suggestion that I don't care.

> Regarding why cherry picking works in the game, it's
> quite simple, and cannot be changed on your side of
> things.

Sure it can! We can change the balance of the gameplay mechanics so that cherry picking is not an effective strategy. There are a lot of ways this could be done:
-Introduce more pass error, especially if the passer is not in a good situation to make a great pass (shooting accuracy already accounts for this sort of thing)
-Make the defense more able to intercept these long passes
-Make it a bigger disadvantage to play a man short in your own zone (?)

> In typical OTP/EASHL games, most of the offense is
> rush=goal, or rush=turnover with 3 forwards deep.
> Very few teams set up and cycle the puck. If they
> did, that cherry picker essentially just put your
> team on the powerplay. Cherry pickers only hurt their
> team if the opposing team is smart enough to take
> advantage. So that's a human side correction, not
> code.

Ok, I see what you mean. You are saying that if you set up in the zone then the game already discourages cherry picking. To some extent that is true, but I would like it to be more heavily discouraged, it should not be so easy to blinding throw a pass through the defense and on the tape of a forward waiting near the other blue line.

> It seems to me that a cheese free CPU goalie would be
> too good, and put many of the human goalies out of
> business, which would disappoint me both as an
> offensive player (i enjoy facing humans more), as a
> part time goalie, and from a "the whole thing that
> makes the game great is teams of HUMANS, against
> teams of HUMANS" point of view.

I don't like the idea of leaving a blatant and unrealistic weakness in the goalies just to encourage human goalies. Most games use CPU goalies now, even with the weaknesses, and those games will be better if there isn't so much cheese. I still think there is a place for the human goalie and that a good human goalie will be more effective than the CPU goalies are.

> This would probably be big a change for a patch, and
> perhaps something for a future game, but it would be
> nice if there was added incentive to use a human
> goalie, perhaps computer goalies in EASHL being made
> worse all around, so that an average human goalie
> would clearly be preferable to a CPU.

It is pretty easy to make them worse. Making them better is the hard part.

I do agree that we need to figure out what we expect the norm to be for using human goalies. We might need to make playing goalie a bit more attractive before there are enough people prepared to do it for it to be the norm in EASHL games.

> If I may make a suggestion Jason, why not at least
> extend the "Vision Control = no check" to at least
> the entire offensive zone.
>
> This would allow defense to do its job but allow more
> control of the puck in the offensive zone, aka,
> rebounds and loose pucks.

Yeah, I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work. We probably should have just started with that, but it was a late addition to the first patch and I wanted to be as conservative as possible.

> Also, I'm curious if the usefulness of the "block
> pass" is being improved either in the patch or in
> NHL10, as of now, its fairly useless, as on many
> occasions pucks will still go right through a person
> doing this, forcing people to instead dive to the ice
> as it is FAR more effective, yet tends to lead to
> penalties.

Not by the patch. Agreed it could be better and the technology that is used in other systems, like deflections could improve the pass block. Its the same old story that I am sure you are tired of hearing already: it comes down to time and priorities.

>>>>In regards to "catch-up logic".....

The same goes for all these other things. No cheating on face-offs, no momentum, etc.

At least in large part momentum and streaks are just statistical patterns that people impose on series of events that have a large component of randomness.

" Everybody knows about hot hands. The only problem is that no such phenomenon exists. The Stanford psychologist Amos Tversky studied every basket made by the Philadelphia 76ers for more than a season. He found, first of all, that probabilities of making a second basket did not rise following a successful shot. Moreover, the number of "runs," or baskets in succession, was no greater than what a standard random, or coin-tossing, model would predict. (If the chance of making each basket is 0.5, for example, a reasonable value for good shooters, five hits in a row will occur, on average, once in thirty-two sequences�just as you can expect to toss five successive heads about once in thirty-two times, or 0.5.)" - http://www.nybooks. com/articles/4337

(NOTE: Tversky and Gilovich's analysis probably had flaws and the research they did does no actually justify the conclusion that steaks are 100% random, but the general point is still valid. http://citeseerx.ist. psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.15.8370)

This is why I don't believe in explicitly modeling momentum or streaks in the game. Runs of luck and the psychology of the player are enough. I take the fact that they aren't in the game and people still complain about them is pretty strong validation of that approach.

I have even read articles in game programming books on people deliberately filtering patterns out of random sequences to make them appear MORE random, by making them LESS random! That is seems more than a bit weird to me, but it could be necessary if the duration of your game is so much shorter than what it is in real life that you cannot get the statistical patterns that feel right without doing it.

(Sorry for nerding-out there).

Also, regarding the first patch, I am sorry that it made you stop playing. If you set up in the zone it should be quite possible to still get lots of good shots off, you just can't do it as easily while flying into the zone at full speed. I'd be interested to hear more about why you did not like the changes -- you could reply with more detail about that or PM me.