OT: Logic and Reason Camp

BucDawg40 · 06-18-2003, 05:00 PM

Why doesn't somebody create an organization that functions in a similar manner to Young Life, but instead of luring kids far away from home and forcing them to learn about Christ's Eternal Love (tm), they are taught critical thinking and problem-solving skills? It could even be disguised as a skiing or camping trip where there will be opportunities to interact with extremely confused members of the opposite sex!

Who wants to help me get this thing started?

Aylmar · 06-18-2003, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BucDawg40
It could even be disguised as a skiing or camping trip where there will be opportunities to interact with extremely confused members of the opposite sex!

Hmm...so what you're proposing is Vacation Bible School without the Bibles?

Easy Mac · 06-18-2003, 05:04 PM

Its called computer camp, nerd

BucDawg40 · 06-18-2003, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aylmar
Hmm...so what you're proposing is Vacation Bible School without the Bibles?

Well, campers will be allowed to bring any reading material they wish. However, bible study will not be part of the agenda, unlike the Young Life excursions.

BucDawg40 · 06-18-2003, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Easy Mac
Its called computer camp, nerd

I suppose I am a nerd -- an incredibly cool nerd, but a nerd nonetheless.

I've never heard of computer camp before, but I'll check it out.

I want this to be just like SkyDog's thing, with the notable exception that campers will be coerced into developing the ability to think with logic and reason, rather than being coerced into believing whole-heartedly in that which is (at best) of questionable validity.

Easy Mac · 06-18-2003, 05:22 PM

I was kidding with the nerd thing (favorite class in college was logic).

But I don't think you can get kids to want to think like that. If you could maybe apply it to getting into girls pants, it may work.

Schmidty · 06-18-2003, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BucDawg40
I want this to be just like SkyDog's thing, with the notable exception that campers will be coerced into developing the ability to think with logic and reason, rather than being coerced into believing whole-heartedly in that which is (at best) of questionable validity.

From my experience, the people who are the most outspoken against religion (especially Christianity) are also the ones who feel the most empty inside. The louder people cry out against spirituality, the louder they seem to be crying out for help.

I'm not saying that this is your situation, but I wouldn't be suprised if it is.

Franklinnoble · 06-18-2003, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Schmidty
From my experience, the people who are the most outspoken against religion (especially Christianity) are also the ones who feel the most empty inside. The louder people cry out against spirituality, the louder they seem to be crying out for help.

I'm not saying that this is your situation, but I wouldn't be suprised if it is.

I think this is why the movie "The Matrix" has become such a cult phenom, typically amongst this crowd.

The Matrix is all about people wandering about on the internet, knowing for sure that there is something more to life... some man behind the curtain... some truth deep in the rabbit hole... and the movies have created a clever non-spiritual explaination to the innate feeling we have that there MUST be some greater meaning out there.

sabotai · 06-18-2003, 05:44 PM

"But I don't think you can get kids to want to think like that. If you could maybe apply it to getting into girls pants, it may work."

Hmm..using logic to get into a woman's pants...done it.

Or at least, it's the only way I can explain how it was I was able to get her.

BucDawg40 · 06-18-2003, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Schmidty
From my experience, the people who are the most outspoken against religion (especially Christianity) are also the ones who feel the most empty inside. The louder people cry out against spirituality, the louder they seem to be crying out for help.

I'm not saying that this is your situation, but I wouldn't be suprised if it is.

My bowels feel empty -- that's about it!

Franklinnoble · 06-18-2003, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BucDawg40
The only part of me that feels empty is my bowels.

Coffee enemas are the key to enlightenment.

Axxon · 06-18-2003, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BucDawg40
Why doesn't somebody create an organization that functions in a similar manner to Young Life, but instead of luring kids far away from home and forcing them to learn about Christ's Eternal Love (tm), they are taught critical thinking and problem-solving skills? It could even be disguised as a skiing or camping trip where there will be opportunities to interact with extremely confused members of the opposite sex!

Who wants to help me get this thing started?

Socrates tried to do this in Athens and it went poorly for him. I'll have to pass on this opportunity.

thesloppy · 06-18-2003, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Schmidty
From my experience, the people who are the most outspoken against religion (especially Christianity) are also the ones who feel the most empty inside. The louder people cry out against spirituality, the louder they seem to be crying out for help.

Clearly, when someone says "I don't like hearing about pastries", they actually mean "I wish you would talk to me MUCH MORE about this bearclaw in a deeply personal, and condescending manner"

Blackadar · 06-18-2003, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thesloppy
Clearly, when someone says "I don't like hearing about pastries", they actually mean "I wish you would talk to me MUCH MORE about this bearclaw in a deeply personal, and condescending manner"

LMAO

wbonnell · 06-18-2003, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
I think this is why the movie "The Matrix" has become such a cult phenom, typically amongst this crowd.

The Matrix is all about people wandering about on the internet, knowing for sure that there is something more to life... some man behind the curtain... some truth deep in the rabbit hole... and the movies have created a clever non-spiritual explaination to the innate feeling we have that there MUST be some greater meaning out there.

Unfortunately, it's pretty clear that no matter how hard one searches, one will never truly find the answer. Certainly one can and often does willingly submit to some religious cause, but it's not based on any reason- it just makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Immanueal Kant "proved" as much 200+ years ago. Whether or not you buy "philosophical mumbo jumbo", he makes some excellent points.

Anyway, you can find meaning in Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, whatever. I believe that the reason why ALL of these religions work is because they teach compassion.

mckerney · 06-18-2003, 09:40 PM

Be careful BucDawg, your idea reeks of children learning common sense, and both the Trial Lawyers of America and the Illuminati are hell bent against common sense.

TroyF · 06-18-2003, 11:09 PM

BucDawg,

I don't have a problem at all with you starting that up.

In fact, I wish you all the luck in the world with it.

I don't have anymore of a problem with you doing that than I do with Bible Camp. I think most (not all) religious people would say that most anything teaching kids self confidence and giving them the chance to meet new friends is a good thing.

It just so happens that the people with the commitment to start such ventures happen to be people of faith. I, for one, appreciate their efforts. I'd appreciate your effort to do the same.

TroyF

Tigercat · 06-18-2003, 11:26 PM

Personally, I dont think kids should be forced into religious ideology, because that won't make a person spiritual. (which is way more important than being religious, if your religious and not spiritual you aren't even being a good follower of any religion i've studied)

Furthermore, critical thinking is a VERY important thing for one to learn to advance in ones education, but its not nessassarily going to makes ones life happier or more meaningfull.

I say you send them to a camp run by good people with no agenda, and let them have fun while they can. I was in Boy Scouts, and although I do not always agree with SOME of their agenda, I thought and still think it is very good at helping turn out very good human beings. But i suppose that sense even Boy Scouts has an agenda, a camp with an agenda isn't too bad as long as its run by people that want their participating kids to keep an open mind about the world and become good people.

TroyF · 06-18-2003, 11:39 PM

We all have agendas. Even a normal, public school has an agenda. I disagree with many of their agendas if truth be known. (what the hell is happening with gym class? Don't these people realize taking care of your body is every bit as important as taking care of the mind?)

Sorry, different rant there. Still, every organization or group of people will have an agenda. Some type of criteria they want to teach the kids.

In BucDawgs case, his agenda would be to teach them practical skills and logic. Nothing wrong with that.

Which one would I send my kid to? A Bible Camp or a Logic Camp? Given the choice, I'd love to send the kid to both. I'm not nearly as religious as some people on this board, yet I fail to see the harm in MOST religious activities either. (please, feel free to tell me about the far right wing if you like. I can tell you just as many stories about the far left and their children)

All things being equal, I can think of MANY worse activities a teen or child can be doing in the summer than Bible Camp.

TroyF

sabotai · 06-19-2003, 02:01 AM

"It just so happens that the people with the commitment to start such ventures happen to be people of faith."

And the people with the tax-exempt income that is used is used to start these ventures happen to be from people of faith.

Samdari · 06-19-2003, 07:01 AM

SkyDog, was your recent trip voluntary for the kids, or herded onto the bus at gunpoint?

Where did we get 'coerced'?

And remember, I am in the non-religious crowd, but that word seems out of line.

TroyF · 06-19-2003, 09:42 AM

Sab,

No doubt about it. Still, there are other organizations that do have cheap camps for kids with other agendas than preaching about God.

In fact, a quick search on google came up with this link:

http://www.atheistalliance.org/internet/net_young.html

There are arts camps, athletic camps, math camps, reading camps. . . if you are a parent or teen, you have many options.

Samdari,

Bingo. I agree.

TroyF

Fritz · 06-19-2003, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samdari
SkyDog, was your recent trip voluntary for the kids, or herded onto the bus at gunpoint?

Where did we get 'coerced'?

And remember, I am in the non-religious crowd, but that word seems out of line.

Skydog did tell them that they would go to hell if they missed camp. I saw the flyer.

TroyF · 06-19-2003, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
Skydog did tell them that they would go to hell if they missed camp. I saw the flyer.

Geez Skydog, why'd you have to go and do that?

TroyF

Ben E Lou · 06-19-2003, 10:28 AM

Heh. I had missed this thread. First off, I'll tell you right-off that Young Life is the LEAST coercive of any evangelical youth ministry I know of, but you don't have to take my word for it. BucDawg, we have VERY nice adult facilities at nearly every one of our camps. Adults can come and check out exactly what we do, have a fun time, eat GREAT food and experience first-hand what kids experience. Before you criticize what you don't know any more, I'd be willing to pay the cost of you spending a week at one of our camps. All you'd need to take care of is your transportation. "Camp" is a misnomer really. All of our properties are of resort quality, with great facilities and outstanding food. It would be one of the best vacations you'd ever take. Here are some pictures from a couple of the Adult Guest Lodges:

Samdari, to respond to your rhetorical question, of course the trip is the most voluntary trip kids will ever take. We have no "members" of any kind. Any kids are welcome to come, even those who have never been to a weekly meeting ever. Kids who don't go to camp are still welcome to participate in anything we do. There is no "penalty" in the group, either implied or real, for not going, nor is there a "reward" (other than a fantastic time) for going. Do we "sell" camp? Sure, to kids we know, but that isn't even a hard sell at all. I'll tell you EXACTLY what we did for camp sell this year:
1. We showed the camp video at no more than three of our weekly meetings all school year.
2. We sent one letter in the mail in early December with a sign-up flier and the offer of an "early-bird" discount for anyone who signed up by January 1st.
3. I put a short blurb about it in around a third of the weekly e-mails I send to kids reminding them of the upcoming weekly meeting. It always read something like this: "There's still room left on the Castaway trip this summer. There's a list of who is already signed up, and a link to a sign-up flier at www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/castaway.htm."
4. As mentioned above, I posted a list of who was signed up on our web site.
5. At each of our weekly meetings, there's a flier available sitting on a table somewhere. Sometimes we remind kids that it is there. Sometimes we don't.

By FAR, the best way to get teenagers to camp is when other kids talk about what a fantastic experience it is. Kids talk about it all year long, wear the trip t-shirts to school, and it builds a snowball effect. The fact of the matter is that Young Life camps have a reputation, even among some of the wildest party kids in the school, as being one of the most fun and meaningful experiences they'll ever have. I don't say that to brag. (I'm not exactly what you'd call a "company guy."

) I am just stating what is a known fact in our community. If anything, we may have gotten a little lazy in my Area with regards to selling camp. It has become so easy to get kids to go, that basically we just mail out the flier, do a few reminder e-mails, and end up taking a pretty big group of kids.

Ben E Lou · 06-19-2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
Skydog did tell them that they would go to hell if they missed camp. I saw the flyer.

LOL. Here is the flier

Anrhydeddu · 06-19-2003, 11:01 AM

I think some folks are jealous that a large group of teens and adults can do things that are life-changing and making a positive difference in the lives around them. This goes against the worldly trend where sinful acts and behaviors are glorified and encouraged. (do I get another brownie point, Ben?

)

TroyF · 06-19-2003, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
LOL. Here is the flier

You just put a subliminal message in the pictures. I think it's something in the trees calling out: come here or BURN.

That's pretty bad of you to stoop to dirty tricks like that. . .

TroyF

sabotai · 06-19-2003, 12:47 PM

" I think some folks are jealous that a large group of teens and adults can do things that are life-changing and making a positive difference in the lives around them. This goes against the worldly trend where sinful acts and behaviors are glorified and encouraged. "

Yep...everyone is jealous of the Christians...

BucDawg40 · 06-19-2003, 02:50 PM

SkyDog,

Thanks for your kind offer to pay for me to experience a week at one of these excursions. However, I'll have to politely decline the offer. I have not taken a week off for vacation or otherwise as an adult, and I don't intend to unless I am too ill or injured to continue my daily routine. Besides, I don't think I could handle 1000 teen voices telling me that I'm going to hell and asking me why I "hate" Jesus -- the two most common responses from teen Jesus fans when they meet a non-Jesus fan.

I am pretty sure that you are sincere in your efforts and you are working from the kindness of your heart. But in my view, the world (and Humanity) would be better served if you put an equal or greater amount of effort into teaching these kids critical thinking and problem-solving skills. That is my point.

scooper · 06-19-2003, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BucDawg40
SkyDog,

I am pretty sure that you are sincere in your efforts and you are working from the kindness of your heart. But in my view, the world (and Humanity) would be better served if you put an equal or greater amount of effort into teaching these kids critical thinking and problem-solving skills. That is my point.

I can't speak for other areas, but the students in religious schools around here continually score higher on tests such as SAT/ACT, test that require "thinking and problem-solving skills." To insinuate that because a kid is a Christian means they can't think critically is assinine. As stated above, those kids didn't go to the camp at gunpoint. They chose to do so.

scooper · 06-19-2003, 02:55 PM

dola:

To add: I'm not insinuating that children at local Christian schools score higher because they are Christians. My point is that it is possible to teach both and do it well.

Ben E Lou · 06-19-2003, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BucDawg40
Besides, I don't think I could handle 1000 teen voices telling me that I'm going to hell and asking me why I "hate" Jesus -- the two most common responses from teen Jesus fans when they meet a non-Jesus fan.

You definitely don't get Young Life then. The HUGE majority of the kids involved in our ministry do NOT have any form of relationship with Christ. Of the 55 kids that were from my Area on the Minnesota trip, there were less than 10 with anything resembling strong faith.

scooper · 06-19-2003, 03:00 PM

Not to mention, 1000 voices damning you to hell and judging you is not a true act of Christianity. I think people like yourself are often jaded by the acts of some of the more zealous.

I prefer to treat people well in the name of Christianity and hope they get the point from that.

BucDawg40 · 06-19-2003, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
5. At each of our weekly meetings, there's a flier available sitting on a table somewhere. Sometimes we remind kids that it is there. Sometimes we don't.

I remember fliers like these. Every week (on a certain day of the week which I can't recall) when I went to lunch (class of '94) there was one of them in the center of each circular cafeteria table. Each flier had a "Top 10" list containing ten names selected out of those who had attended the weekly meeting.

I always wondered, "Top 10 of what?" Top 10 richest? Top 10 most hypocritical? Top 10 most pretentious? Do you publish a Top 10, SkyDog? If so, why -- and what does it mean?

This other group of kids (whom I barely knew) began laying out flyers before lunch promoting something called "Gordo Life" -- yes, it is a dumb name, and no I don't know what it meant. Anyway, they had their own ambiguous Top 10 list. There was nothing vulgar or inappropriate on these flyers from what I can remember, but after three weeks the flyers disappeared. Discipline was handed out to those responsible, but the Young Life flyers remained. Why did a public school give such preferential treatment to a Jesus fan club?

Easy Mac · 06-19-2003, 03:05 PM

I'd say most of those kids don't care about God and just want to go so they can hook up with random people. That's why I went on Youth Group tirps... always go for the Catholic girls fellas, especially if they have the uniform.

JonInMiddleGA · 06-19-2003, 03:08 PM

Am I the only person wondering why the heck this trolling-in-faint-costume thread has lasted this long?

TroyF · 06-19-2003, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BucDawg40
SkyDog,

Thanks for your kind offer to pay for me to experience a week at one of these excursions. However, I'll have to politely decline the offer. I have not taken a week off for vacation or otherwise as an adult, and I don't intend to unless I am too ill or injured to continue my daily routine. Besides, I don't think I could handle 1000 teen voices telling me that I'm going to hell and asking me why I "hate" Jesus -- the two most common responses from teen Jesus fans when they meet a non-Jesus fan.

I am pretty sure that you are sincere in your efforts and you are working from the kindness of your heart. But in my view, the world (and Humanity) would be better served if you put an equal or greater amount of effort into teaching these kids critical thinking and problem-solving skills. That is my point.

This is one of the most stereotypical posts I've read in a long time.

For your information, I was at one of those camps. It was actually a basketball camp. I joined up with the church ONLY because of that camp. I didn't join them in their prayers, nor was I ever forced to. Not a single person told me I was going to hell or asked me why I "hated Jesus"

The only rules I had to follow was to watch my language and make my bed up in the morning. That was it.

It's a shame so much stereotyping is done by non-religious people. It's every bit as destructive as the Christians who scream hell and damnation every other breath. Stop paying attention to ONLY the far right wing groups and look at the majority before you speak. (hint: the majority of teen Christians do not ask you why you hate Jesus or tell you you're going to hell, they just happen to be the most outspoken ones)

Notice how in this post I'm not telling you that I'm "praying for your soul" or "hoping you let Jesus into your heart"? I'm still undecided on what my spirituality is, I've never said those words to anyone. I just think it's sad how you've taken an entire group of people and slapped a label on them. Truly sad.

TroyF

BucDawg40 · 06-19-2003, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
You definitely don't get Young Life then. The HUGE majority of the kids involved in our ministry do NOT have any form of relationship with Christ. Of the 55 kids that were from my Area on the Minnesota trip, there were less than 10 with anything resembling strong faith.

http://www.younglife.org/

From the front page:

"Young Life" is the name of our organization, and it's also what we call our outreach to high school-aged kids. We have named our middle school and junior high ministry "Wyldlife" to differentiate between the two age groups and their varying developmental stages and maturity levels. Both ministries stay true to the time-tested practices we've been using for more than 60 years: going where kids are, loving them unconditionally, earning the right to be heard and communicating God's love in terms kids can understand.

The kids may not yet have a relationship with Jesus, but it is a ministry with the goal of creating more Jesus fans. Where have I misread it?

scooper · 06-19-2003, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BucDawg40

The kids may not yet have a relationship with Jesus, but it is a ministry with the goal of creating more Jesus fans. Where have I misread it?

Yes, and?

BucDawg40 · 06-19-2003, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scooper
Yes, and?

SkyDog said I didn't "get" Young Life.

Ben E Lou · 06-19-2003, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BucDawg40
I remember fliers like these. Every week (on a certain day of the week which I can't recall) when I went to lunch (class of '94) there was one of them in the center of each circular cafeteria table. Each flier had a "Top 10" list containing ten names selected out of those who had attended the weekly meeting.

I always wondered, "Top 10 of what?" Top 10 richest? Top 10 most hypocritical? Top 10 most pretentious? Do you publish a Top 10, SkyDog? If so, why -- and what does it mean?

This other group of kids (whom I barely knew) began laying out flyers before lunch promoting something called "Gordo Life" -- yes, it is a dumb name, and no I don't know what it meant. Anyway, they had their own ambiguous Top 10 list. There was nothing vulgar or inappropriate on these flyers from what I can remember, but after three weeks the flyers disappeared. Discipline was handed out to those responsible, but the Young Life flyers remained. Why did a public school give such preferential treatment to a Jesus fan club?

Well, first off, you're missing what I was saying. The camp sign-up fliers that I speak of are at the location of our meetings, not at the school at all. We meet in kids' homes, or in a "neutral" site such as a subdivision's clubhouse. Somewhere at the location of our meetings, there is registration info available for any trips coming up. That is what I said earlier, and it is very different from what you're speaking of.

That being said, the fact of the matter is that even Government School officials recognize that positive adult role models are always beneficial to teenagers. Young Life is an organization that does NOT overstep its bounds. Our style is to build relationships, love kids right where they are, not to condemn them for the things they do. We don't evangelize on campus, pass out tracts or do anything that would get the school in trouble. Some schools (perhaps yours, and that is why they were allowed to put fliers in the school) even have an official faculty sponsor, and guess what? That is 100% legal.

No, I don't publish any sort of top ten list. My guess is that they just drew names out of a hat from those that had attended the previous week. Kids love to see their name in print, and doing something like that helps them feel valued and noticed. If I were to do it, that would be why I'd do it. However, even though I have permission to put fliers in the school, I rarely do it. Fliers don't get kids to the club meeting, to camp, or to Christ. Relationships do.

BucDawg40 · 06-19-2003, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Am I the only person wondering why the heck this trolling-in-faint-costume thread has lasted this long?

I wasn't really trolling. However, I did sort of half-expect to get banned for daring to challenge the majority. Kudos to SkyDog for letting it continue!

scooper · 06-19-2003, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BucDawg40
SkyDog said I didn't "get" Young Life.

Nothing about the above passage indicates "1000 teen voices telling me that I'm going to hell and asking me why I "hate" Jesus -- the two most common responses from teen Jesus fans when they meet a non-Jesus fan."

Ben E Lou · 06-19-2003, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BucDawg40
SkyDog said I didn't "get" Young Life.

You spoke of picturing 1,000 kids who are "pro-Jesus" singling you out at camp. Not only would such behavior be utterly discouraged, the fact is that there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that anyone at a YL camp could ever be singled out for being "anti-Jesus," because the fact is that there are a LOT more kids at camp who are ambivalent or "anti-Jesus" than the very small handful who are "pro-Jesus." If you can envision the scenario you brought up happening at a Young Life camp, you REALLY don't get Young Life, believe me.

scooper · 06-19-2003, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BucDawg40
I wasn't really trolling. However, I did sort of half-expect to get banned for daring to challenge the majority. Kudos to SkyDog for letting it continue!

I'll agree, you're doing nothing ban-able here. Nobody has been banned for having a difference of opinion.

Anrhydeddu · 06-19-2003, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BucDawg40
I wasn't really trolling. However, I did sort of half-expect to get banned for daring to challenge the majority. Kudos to SkyDog for letting it continue!

If that was the case, I would have been banned years ago.

Samdari · 06-19-2003, 03:26 PM

You know BucDawg, having strong faith (and I am NOT in this camp) does not preclude one from using and applying logic in other facets of life. I know many math/logic types who are religious. They can take religious matters on faith and yet know that when they throw their pencil at the ceiling (a favorite activity of us engineers/scientists) a force called gravity pulls it back towards them, not the hand of {insert name of preferred diety here}. Everything you post in this thread presumes that believing in {insert name of preferred diety here} requires one to completely abandon all common sense - this is simply untrue. Many people I know who pray also work and make their mortgage payments rather than expect prayer to provide them with shelter and resources to buy food. They could probably be described as displaying faith AND applying logic to the problem of providing for their basic needs.

Unless, of course, you think the government should provide those needs. DOH! That's a different thread.

sabotai · 06-19-2003, 03:27 PM

"1000 voices damning you to hell and judging you is not a true act of Christianity."

Unfortunatly, it is the act of many who call themselves Christians. Maybe not the majority, but definatly the majority of the one's that are outspoken. (As TroyF said)

BucDawg40 · 06-19-2003, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
You spoke of picturing 1,000 kids who are "pro-Jesus" singling you out at camp. Not only would such behavior be utterly discouraged, the fact is that there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that anyone at a YL camp could ever be singled out for being "anti-Jesus," because the fact is that there are a LOT more kids at camp who are ambivalent or "anti-Jesus" than the very small handful who are "pro-Jesus." If you can envision the scenario you brought up happening at a Young Life camp, you REALLY don't get Young Life, believe me.

Fair enough. If this behavior does not happen and is actively discouraged, then I guess I don't get YL. Not the chapter you are associated with at least. Things were different around here.

06-19-2003, 07:01 AM	#21
Samdari Roster Filler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Cicero	SkyDog, was your recent trip voluntary for the kids, or herded onto the bus at gunpoint? Where did we get 'coerced'? And remember, I am in the non-religious crowd, but that word seems out of line. __________________ http://www.nateandellie.net Now featuring twice the babies for the same low price!

06-19-2003, 10:28 AM	#25
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	Heh. I had missed this thread. First off, I'll tell you right-off that Young Life is the LEAST coercive of any evangelical youth ministry I know of, but you don't have to take my word for it. BucDawg, we have VERY nice adult facilities at nearly every one of our camps. Adults can come and check out exactly what we do, have a fun time, eat GREAT food and experience first-hand what kids experience. Before you criticize what you don't know any more, I'd be willing to pay the cost of you spending a week at one of our camps. All you'd need to take care of is your transportation. "Camp" is a misnomer really. All of our properties are of resort quality, with great facilities and outstanding food. It would be one of the best vacations you'd ever take. Here are some pictures from a couple of the Adult Guest Lodges: Samdari, to respond to your rhetorical question, of course the trip is the most voluntary trip kids will ever take. We have no "members" of any kind. Any kids are welcome to come, even those who have never been to a weekly meeting ever. Kids who don't go to camp are still welcome to participate in anything we do. There is no "penalty" in the group, either implied or real, for not going, nor is there a "reward" (other than a fantastic time) for going. Do we "sell" camp? Sure, to kids we know, but that isn't even a hard sell at all. I'll tell you EXACTLY what we did for camp sell this year: 1. We showed the camp video at no more than three of our weekly meetings all school year. 2. We sent one letter in the mail in early December with a sign-up flier and the offer of an "early-bird" discount for anyone who signed up by January 1st. 3. I put a short blurb about it in around a third of the weekly e-mails I send to kids reminding them of the upcoming weekly meeting. It always read something like this: "There's still room left on the Castaway trip this summer. There's a list of who is already signed up, and a link to a sign-up flier at www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/castaway.htm." 4. As mentioned above, I posted a list of who was signed up on our web site. 5. At each of our weekly meetings, there's a flier available sitting on a table somewhere. Sometimes we remind kids that it is there. Sometimes we don't. By FAR, the best way to get teenagers to camp is when other kids talk about what a fantastic experience it is. Kids talk about it all year long, wear the trip t-shirts to school, and it builds a snowball effect. The fact of the matter is that Young Life camps have a reputation, even among some of the wildest party kids in the school, as being one of the most fun and meaningful experiences they'll ever have. I don't say that to brag. (I'm not exactly what you'd call a "company guy." ) I am just stating what is a known fact in our community. If anything, we may have gotten a little lazy in my Area with regards to selling camp. It has become so easy to get kids to go, that basically we just mail out the flier, do a few reminder e-mails, and end up taking a pretty big group of kids. __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'! Last edited by Ben E Lou : 06-19-2003 at 10:33 AM.

06-19-2003, 03:08 PM	#37
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	Am I the only person wondering why the heck this trolling-in-faint-costume thread has lasted this long? __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

06-19-2003, 03:26 PM	#48
Samdari Roster Filler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Cicero	You know BucDawg, having strong faith (and I am NOT in this camp) does not preclude one from using and applying logic in other facets of life. I know many math/logic types who are religious. They can take religious matters on faith and yet know that when they throw their pencil at the ceiling (a favorite activity of us engineers/scientists) a force called gravity pulls it back towards them, not the hand of {insert name of preferred diety here}. Everything you post in this thread presumes that believing in {insert name of preferred diety here} requires one to completely abandon all common sense - this is simply untrue. Many people I know who pray also work and make their mortgage payments rather than expect prayer to provide them with shelter and resources to buy food. They could probably be described as displaying faith AND applying logic to the problem of providing for their basic needs. Unless, of course, you think the government should provide those needs. DOH! That's a different thread. __________________ http://www.nateandellie.net Now featuring twice the babies for the same low price!

06-18-2003, 05:04 PM	#3
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	Its called computer camp, nerd

06-18-2003, 05:22 PM	#6
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	I was kidding with the nerd thing (favorite class in college was logic). But I don't think you can get kids to want to think like that. If you could maybe apply it to getting into girls pants, it may work.

06-18-2003, 05:44 PM	#9
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	"But I don't think you can get kids to want to think like that. If you could maybe apply it to getting into girls pants, it may work." Hmm..using logic to get into a woman's pants...done it. Or at least, it's the only way I can explain how it was I was able to get her.

06-18-2003, 09:40 PM	#16
mckerney Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Be careful BucDawg, your idea reeks of children learning common sense, and both the Trial Lawyers of America and the Illuminati are hell bent against common sense.

06-18-2003, 11:09 PM	#17
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	BucDawg, I don't have a problem at all with you starting that up. In fact, I wish you all the luck in the world with it. I don't have anymore of a problem with you doing that than I do with Bible Camp. I think most (not all) religious people would say that most anything teaching kids self confidence and giving them the chance to meet new friends is a good thing. It just so happens that the people with the commitment to start such ventures happen to be people of faith. I, for one, appreciate their efforts. I'd appreciate your effort to do the same. TroyF

06-18-2003, 11:26 PM	#18
Tigercat College Starter Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Federal Way, WA	Personally, I dont think kids should be forced into religious ideology, because that won't make a person spiritual. (which is way more important than being religious, if your religious and not spiritual you aren't even being a good follower of any religion i've studied) Furthermore, critical thinking is a VERY important thing for one to learn to advance in ones education, but its not nessassarily going to makes ones life happier or more meaningfull. I say you send them to a camp run by good people with no agenda, and let them have fun while they can. I was in Boy Scouts, and although I do not always agree with SOME of their agenda, I thought and still think it is very good at helping turn out very good human beings. But i suppose that sense even Boy Scouts has an agenda, a camp with an agenda isn't too bad as long as its run by people that want their participating kids to keep an open mind about the world and become good people.

06-18-2003, 11:39 PM	#19
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	We all have agendas. Even a normal, public school has an agenda. I disagree with many of their agendas if truth be known. (what the hell is happening with gym class? Don't these people realize taking care of your body is every bit as important as taking care of the mind?) Sorry, different rant there. Still, every organization or group of people will have an agenda. Some type of criteria they want to teach the kids. In BucDawgs case, his agenda would be to teach them practical skills and logic. Nothing wrong with that. Which one would I send my kid to? A Bible Camp or a Logic Camp? Given the choice, I'd love to send the kid to both. I'm not nearly as religious as some people on this board, yet I fail to see the harm in MOST religious activities either. (please, feel free to tell me about the far right wing if you like. I can tell you just as many stories about the far left and their children) All things being equal, I can think of MANY worse activities a teen or child can be doing in the summer than Bible Camp. TroyF

06-19-2003, 02:01 AM	#20
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	"It just so happens that the people with the commitment to start such ventures happen to be people of faith." And the people with the tax-exempt income that is used is used to start these ventures happen to be from people of faith.

06-19-2003, 09:42 AM	#22
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Sab, No doubt about it. Still, there are other organizations that do have cheap camps for kids with other agendas than preaching about God. In fact, a quick search on google came up with this link: http://www.atheistalliance.org/internet/net_young.html There are arts camps, athletic camps, math camps, reading camps. . . if you are a parent or teen, you have many options. Samdari, Bingo. I agree. TroyF

06-19-2003, 11:01 AM	#27
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	I think some folks are jealous that a large group of teens and adults can do things that are life-changing and making a positive difference in the lives around them. This goes against the worldly trend where sinful acts and behaviors are glorified and encouraged. (do I get another brownie point, Ben? )

06-19-2003, 12:47 PM	#29
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	" I think some folks are jealous that a large group of teens and adults can do things that are life-changing and making a positive difference in the lives around them. This goes against the worldly trend where sinful acts and behaviors are glorified and encouraged. " Yep...everyone is jealous of the Christians...

06-19-2003, 02:50 PM	#30
BucDawg40 H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Tampa, FL	SkyDog, Thanks for your kind offer to pay for me to experience a week at one of these excursions. However, I'll have to politely decline the offer. I have not taken a week off for vacation or otherwise as an adult, and I don't intend to unless I am too ill or injured to continue my daily routine. Besides, I don't think I could handle 1000 teen voices telling me that I'm going to hell and asking me why I "hate" Jesus -- the two most common responses from teen Jesus fans when they meet a non-Jesus fan. I am pretty sure that you are sincere in your efforts and you are working from the kindness of your heart. But in my view, the world (and Humanity) would be better served if you put an equal or greater amount of effort into teaching these kids critical thinking and problem-solving skills. That is my point.

06-19-2003, 02:55 PM	#32
scooper College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cinn City	dola: To add: I'm not insinuating that children at local Christian schools score higher because they are Christians. My point is that it is possible to teach both and do it well.

06-19-2003, 03:00 PM	#34
scooper College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cinn City	Not to mention, 1000 voices damning you to hell and judging you is not a true act of Christianity. I think people like yourself are often jaded by the acts of some of the more zealous. I prefer to treat people well in the name of Christianity and hope they get the point from that.

06-19-2003, 03:05 PM	#36
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	I'd say most of those kids don't care about God and just want to go so they can hook up with random people. That's why I went on Youth Group tirps... always go for the Catholic girls fellas, especially if they have the uniform.

06-19-2003, 03:27 PM	#49
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	"1000 voices damning you to hell and judging you is not a true act of Christianity." Unfortunatly, it is the act of many who call themselves Christians. Maybe not the majority, but definatly the majority of the one's that are outspoken. (As TroyF said)

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