ESPN Reporting ACC takes only Miami & Va. Tech.

[ScottVib]

Outside the Lines in is reporting that in a shocker.. the ACC is only taking Miami & Virginia Tech from the Big East..

[ScottVib]

dola, USA Today and the Washington Post have also said the same thing.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/2003-06-24-acc-invites_x.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28663-2003Jun24.html?nav=hptop_tb

[ScottVib]

double dola...

I can't imagine the ACC stopping at 11 teams.... so this makes you wonder who will be the third school if not Syracuse or Boston College?

Maybe East Carolina? South Florida? Central Florida?

[Iceberg]

I doubt that East Carolina would meet the ACC academic standards and im not sure about the other two either. I believe academics was the primary reason West Virginia wasn't given any consideration.

[MylesKnight]

Although I love the mention of UCF Scott, however much of a huge longshot (and pipedream of mine) that is, I'm thinking why won't the ACC just stick with 11 if in fact Miami and Va. Tech are the only two invitees.

I mean it works for the Big Ten..

[Craptacular]

You need 12 for a conference championship game in football, don't you?

[Radii]

I would think they need the football conference championship to guarentee increased revenue, so a 3rd team eventually seems likely, but I have no idea what's going on here. This got so f'd up and confusing over the last week it made my head spin.

[Daimyo]

Maybe the Big Ten and ACC can petition to get that 12-team limit lowered to 11 since they're two pretty powerful conferences (and probably have a lot of influence).

[MylesKnight]

I agree 12 is the logical number for the ACC, but from what we've seen, this group (the current ACC schools) is hardly the conventional thinktank.

I really don't think Duke & UNC, for example, care too darn much about acheiving the magic number of 12 in order for the Conference to be able to throw a Football Championship Game. There interest (especially in Duke's case), is Hoops, period. I think they'd be perfectly happy with a 1 school expansion (Miami) and the ability to keep a Full Round-Robin Conference Hoops Schedule. BCS $$$ can do a lot of things, but they can't replace that..

The Miami/VT invitee scenario seems awfully interesting, seeing as this possibility was never mentioned (or at least I never read/heard about it until now) but from a Geographical standpoint, makes excellent sense.

[mckerney]

Coach K was saying how they should stop at Miami because they wouldn't want to interfere with the business of others, which I believe is coach talk for "Please don't make my play Syracuse every year."

[Daimyo]

From a competitive balance standpoint it seems perfect... they were already super strong in basketball so no need to interfere with that and now they also become super strong in football.

How long until the FOFC Syracuse contingent says they never wanted to join the ACC anyway?

[Airhog]

hmm but wouldnt an odd number of teams make it difficult to schedule?

[Swaggs]

Va Tech (and the other 4 remaining schools) has vowed not to accept an invitation in the place of Syracuse or BC, so I cannot see them accepting this bid. I think they were invited just to appease political pressure from the state government.

I think the more logical conclusion here is:
1.) Miami goes it alone and the ACC petitions to allow a championship game with 10 teams.

or

2.) Miami stays put because without Syracuse and BC, their Northeastern fan base will be displeased by their schedule.

[MylesKnight]

You've gotta kind of shake your head a bit at Virginia Tech though if all this does actually go through.

I mean in the span of a couple of weeks to go from suing the University of Miami, Syracuse and Boston College as well as the ACC, and desperately trying to save their own League, the Big East, to now actually getting an invite (and trust me, there would not be an invite if there was any question what VT's answer would be) to become a member of the Conference they were so determined to stop?

Hey, if given the choice I'm sure any of the current Big East schools involved in the proposed lawsuit would've probably done the same, but still..

[Samdari]

Originally posted by Daimyo
How long until the FOFC Syracuse contingent says they never wanted to join the ACC anyway?

Many SU people thought it was a bad idea anyway. I vehemently disagreed with them. This is, simply put, a disaster.

[Syrinx]

Originally posted by Iceberg
I doubt that East Carolina would meet the ACC academic standards and im not sure about the other two either. I believe academics was the primary reason West Virginia wasn't given any consideration.

But Miami meets them? Wow!

[scooper]

Miami as an institution is strong academically, if I'm not mistaken. They just sold their academic souls in the 80's and 90's for the sake of football.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Syrinx
But Miami meets them? Wow!

If you have any doubts about Miami's academic qualifications, I'd direct you to look again at the strength of their football program. That should certainly help settle any doubts you may have had.

[VPI97]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
You've gotta kind of shake your head a bit at Virginia Tech though if all this does actually go through.

If this goes though and VT joins the ACC, I will be terribly ashamed of my university. It's one thing to receive an invite and switch conferences in the best interests of the school, but it's another to act so hypocritical during the process.

There are some VT fans out there that still value the integrity it would take to say no to the ACC, but I fear that there's many more that don't care about the character of the university, just as long as they have a team they can brag about at the water cooler.

[cthomer5000]

Having no basis for this, i'm going to just throw this out there; this seems to be me like something that could be a compromise between the Big East and ACC.

• Taking Va Tech and Miami would allow them (ACC) to grab a 3rd team and keep it a southern conference.
• Va Tech and Miami help ACC boost their football strength
• The Big East can keep a lock on the northeast, and now grab other teams that've been talked about to either fill it back up or go all the way to 12
• both conferences end up at 12 with a conference championship

It seems like if the conferences just agreed to move those 2 teams, then raid some other conferences for the rest of their members, that it could work out for everybody. Though ideally the Big East would want to keep everyone, they might figure that giving up the 2 southern schools is better than losing 3 (or 4) very good teams.

[Craptacular]

Yeah that would work out for everybody ... oh, wait. How about the other conferences that get raided ... C USA for example?

[ScottVib]

Of course not mentioning is the ACC did do what they had to do and kill off the Big East's BCS bid. A Big East conference with a Virginia Tech "anchor" could possibly hold onto the bid; without them or a replacement the Big East will likely lose its BCS spot when the deal is renegotiated.

The only way the finances even come remotely close to working would be with two bids for the league. By killing off one of the automatics they increase the chance of that exponentially. What will really be interesting is how things shake out at FSU, the lead supporter of expansion, when the league gets its two BCS bids in 2004-5, but the teams are Miami and Virginia Tech?

For most of the traditional ACC schools this pushes them into battling for 2nd or 3rd on a good year, and 4th in a typical year, for Duke fans... well at least Basketball practice starts in October.

IMO the Big East has to get to 11 teams as well, if that's going to be where the ACC tries to get the line for a conference championship, then they need to be there too. I don't know how the Big East finds a team that gives them their "anchor" school to keep the bid (assuming both schools accept). Louisville and Cincy (two definite must take schools for the Big East IMO) will at least improve the conferences hoops profile and aren't bad football programs (adding Pitino and Huggins to a conference with Boeheim and Calhoun, certainly isn't a bad thing).

The difference between what the Big East is about to do and what the ACC did... Big East commissioner Mike Tranghese has kept things above board and has been in communications with the Conference USA office. Edit - (Source ESPN.com)

[albionmoonlight]

It sounds like Louisville is willing to leave C-USA and join the Big East if invited. Why would the ACC not want to go after Louisville, too. It is great in Basketball and good in football. It will bring the ACC to 12 teams, and it makes more geographic sense than the Northeast schools. Also, you would get to see UNC-Louisville and Duke-Louisville every year in basktball, which would have to be good for ratings. I'm not on the "let's raid" bandwagon, but since the ACC has chosen to go that route, why not do it all the way?

[ShagVT]

I too am disappointed by all of this. I wish Tech could turn down the offer and just say good riddance to Miami, but there is no way that Gov. Warner will allow that to happen at this point.

My theory on the 11-team setup is that it is a back-room agreement with Notre Dame. Get Miami and VT and Notre Dame will join, but not unless those two accept. I cannot imagine there would be a stronger football conference in the country if that actually happens. With FSU, Miami, ND, VT at the top and VA, MD, GT, Clem, NCSU annual top-25 teams, that rivals the Big 12 and I think exceeds the SEC.

Anyway, this is great news for VT, but I am appalled at that ACC's treatment of everybody involved in this - especially BC and Syracuse, who were really just pawns. I do wish that VT could decline, but I know they won't. On the plus side, now it will only be an hour drive to see the Hokies crush Wake.

[ScottVib]

Notre Dame will not join the ACC, Big East, Northeast Conference, Great Midwest (yes I know its dead), or any conference anytime soon. Big Ten (Eleven) has the best chance of any league of luring them...

I would highly doubt that any back room deal exists (except maybe in the fantasies of the ACC Presidents).. when the 11 team proposal didn't even come out until last night.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by ScottVib
Notre Dame will not join the ACC, Big East, Northeast Conference, Great Midwest (yes I know its dead), or any conference anytime soon. Big Ten (Eleven) has the best chance of any league of luring them...

I would highly doubt that any back room deal exists (except maybe in the fantasies of the ACC Presidents).. when the 11 team proposal didn't even come out until last night.

agreed. Notre Dame has nothing to gain by joining a conference, so they won't. I can see this as a "backroom" deal between the Big East and ACC. My conspiracy theory agreement is:

The ACC would only take two teams (and both basically football-first schools) and leave B.C. and Syracuse alone in return for the Big East dropping the lawsuit. Both teams will probably then look to bulk up to 12 teams by raiding Conference USA or others. Neither cares about that.

[Samdari]

I don' t think BC and SU were pawns. I think Miami truly wanted expansion with them. They thought the strength of their football program was enough to shove them down the ACC's throats and found that was not the case.

I don't buy the back door deal with ND though. ND has been aggressively pursued by the Big 10 every year. I do not see why they would take an invitation to the ACC over one from the Big 10. Why would it need to be back door? Notre Dame would not really be breaking conference ties by leaving. If they were to be considered as the 3rd team, I think you would have seen that approved now. The teams against expansion are worried that their conference payout would go down (their publicly stated reasons are bullshit - its about the money) and having ND in the conference would obviously allay those fears.

Maybe they are expanding to 11, leaving a spot open for Notre Dame? That has worked out pretty poorly for the Big 11 so far.

[ShagVT]

Originally posted by ScottVib
IMO the Big East has to get to 11 teams as well, if that's going to be where the ACC tries to get the line for a conference championship, then they need to be there too. I don't know how the Big East finds a team that gives them their "anchor" school to keep the bid (assuming both schools accept). Louisville and Cincy (two definite must take schools for the Big East IMO) will at least improve the conferences hoops profile and aren't bad football programs (adding Pitino and Huggins to a conference with Boeheim and Calhoun, certainly isn't a bad thing).

The schools I have heard mentioned in connection with the BE were Louisville, Memphis, South Florida, Central Florida, East Carolina, and Marshall. I hadn't heard anything about Cincinatti, but if the BE could get Louisville and Cincinatti, I would have to say that it would assume the crown for king of college hoops, taking that title from the ACC.

On the football side the prospects for the BE are even worse than when Syracuse and BC were leaving. Louisville and Marshall give them another couple of Top-25 caliber teams, but without an established power, it will be interesting to see if the BE can keep its BCS slot.

I think the best bet for the BE is to try to get to 12 - with the teams involved, it would be too hard for the BCS to not give them an automatic bid. Consider:

East
Connecticut
BC
Syracuse
East Carolina
Central Florida
Rutgers

West
Cincinatti
Marshall
Louisville
West Virginia
Pitt
Toledo

Feel free to swap UCF/Toledo with any of USF, Memphis, Tulane, Temple.

Make no mistake, with out an annual top 10 program, this will still be a hard sell, but those 12 teams have enough annual top-25 talent that I think they could make a case.

[Marmel]

I am just glad this is finally over. At first, I was happy to be included in Miami's plans for the move tot he ACC (as a syracuse fan). Eventually, the whole situation made me sick, and I stopped caring what happened.

[ShagVT]

Originally posted by Craptacular
Yeah that would work out for everybody ... oh, wait. How about the other conferences that get raided ... C USA for example?

Well, the difference for the other conferences getting raided is that those are teams that are getting into the "big time". The ACC raiding the Big East was the opposite - it was basically kicking 4 or 5 schools out of the BCS club.

Nobody complains when programs are elevated into an "elite" conference.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm not sure VTech will accept. After all it was in the lawsuit to begin with. It'd look foolish for it to accept it now. Of course there may be political pressure from above, but I wouldn't be surprised if only Miami leaves.

Then, of course, the Big East would replace them with Louisville. Making them an above average (but not great) football conference, but a great basketball conference.

[scooper]

(Cue the Imperial March from Empire Strikes Back as I give an ND fan's perspective)

It's a bit of a misnomer that the Big Televen would be more attractive to Notre Dame than the ACC and there are a couple reasons:

Geography: If ND played in the Big Televen, including home games, they would play all but one or two games withing a few hundred mile radious. They really stive to spread out more. The ACC would allow them access to the South and the East Coast. Plus they would probably have more clout with the ACC, forcing them to allow ND to only play 6 or 7 conference games a year, allowing for traditional rivals with Big Televen schools Michigan and Purdue (and maybe MSU), along with Navy (ND will always play Navy for loyalty reasons) and their biggest rival, Southern Cal.

Academics: The Big Televen is a conference full of huge state schools that are driven by research and post-graduate studies. Notre Dame's focus is on undergraduate education. There are more schools similar to ND in the ACC.

Clout: Like it or not, ND wants to have its cake and eat it too. They want to dictate how things go. Habits born of being independant would be hard to break. The Big Televen would probably be a tougher conference to bully politically. At least that's my perception.

Hard feelings: This may not be a big factor, but ND tried to join the Big Televen (then 10) decades ago. They were blocked by the Big 10. At the time there was a bit of anti-Catholic sentiment showed by some big 10 members. Oned example is Michigan's Fielding Yost.

Now, there are a couple reasons why it won't happen:

Miami: ND will not put itself in a position to play away games at Miami. This stems from the treatment of some trustees and bigshot alumni the last time they played Miami at the Orange Bowl. This included physical threats, urine, profanity, etc. Some powerful people don't want ND to ever play at Miami again. Before anybody accuses them of ducking Miami, look at the other teams they play. They don't duck strong programs. Also, ND won 2 out of the last three against Miami so fear was not a factor. If it was out of fear, they could have played them while Miami was down. They did not.

A couple solutions to the above would be putting ND and Miami in separate divisions or playing Miami/ND at neutral sites.

Money: ND makes a lot of money as an independant. Any deal with any conference would have to allow ND to keep its home game deal with NBC (or whoever the high bidder is next time) Greedy? Yes, but college football is not as pure as many hope.

Tradition: That's the way it's always been. It's a program that values tradition.

Myself, I like the status quo, but if I had to pick a conference, I would want the ACC. Mainly because living in Ohio, I see plenty of Big Televen football. Plus ND already plays Big Televen schools and would probably continue to do so. I would just like the variety. I think programs like NC State and Maryland are going to stick around for awhile. I'd like to see more of them. Plus, ND-FSU can be very intense. It would be great to see that made into a permanent series.

[ScottVib]

There have been so many teams mentioned at one time or another as targets for Big East that its easy to miss a few:

I've seen: Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, Marshall, East Carolina, South Florida, Central Florida, Army, Navy, UMass (with football upgrade), Villanova (football upgrade), Temple (all sports), Penn State (pipedream), Notre Dame (pipedream), Florida State (see pipedream below (repeated from ESPN), Maryland (see pipedream below (repeated from ESPN) That doesn't count the basketball only schools that were mentioned including: Marquette, Xavier, DePaul, St. Joseph's, etc.

Personally I'd prefer this alignment if the Big East Went to 12 teams..

Pro's - 12 teams, Temple, Louisville, Cincy bring something to the hoops table.
Con's - Expanded Geographical footprint increases travel costs for Title IX and non-Olympic sports, no "Marquee" school makes Big East a better C-USA, but no BCS.

SuperCon: Would have to split with the non-football schools and the rivalries built up.

North:
UConn
Boston College
Syracuse
Rutgers
Temple
Marshall

South:
West Virginia
Louisville
Cincinnati
Pittsburgh
South Florida
Central Florida


I'd personally keep it to a 10 team league and have a loose confederation (under the Big East banner) with the hoops schools.

Syracuse
Boston College
UConn
Rutgers
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Louisville
Cincinnati
2 from the remaining riff - raff (Temple, UCF, S. Florida, Marshall, ECU, etc.) probably including one or both Florida schools if only to get a foothold in the Florida Football recruiting area.

This league then joins with the remaining 6 non-football members (Notre Dame, Providence, Villanova, St. John's, Georgetown, Seton Hall) with 2 guys joining the "Hoops League" for basketball season.

Absolute Pipe Dreams for any Big East fans.

First they get Notre Dame or Penn State and keep their BCS status. *Neither likely to happen, Penn State would probably be more likely then Notre Dame)*

Second a vengeful Big East talks Miami and Virginia Tech into staying and talks Florida State and Maryland into the Big East, with this development Notre Dame becomes an all sport member and Louisville rounds out the 12-some *DEFINITELY WON'T HAPPEN*

[vtbub]

This is all so incredibly dumb. Why just 11?

[ISiddiqui]

Wasn't there talk about Notre Dame becoming a 'kinda member' of the Big East. Where they'd join the conference, but only have to play 3 or 4 conference games and could set up the rest of their schedule however they wanted?

[ScottVib]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Wasn't there talk about Notre Dame becoming a 'kinda member' of the Big East. Where they'd join the conference, but only have to play 3 or 4 conference games and could set up the rest of their schedule however they wanted?

Yes, that was floated for a short while early in the process as the Big East tried to find ways to retain Miami..

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by ShagVT
Well, the difference for the other conferences getting raided is that those are teams that are getting into the "big time". The ACC raiding the Big East was the opposite - it was basically kicking 4 or 5 schools out of the BCS club.

Nobody complains when programs are elevated into an "elite" conference.

Well, a conference that has a good thing going and then gets raided will complain. You could find a lot of people that would argue that CUSA, with teams like Marquette, Louisville, Cincinnati, and Memphis, is already an "elite" basketball conference. Tell me again that no one would complain if Louisville and Cincinnati jumped ship for both sports, or if Marquette and DePaul left for basketball.

[Anrhydeddu]

As part of the FOFC SU contigency, I am sick that they could remain in a two-bit conference with very little history. SU lost its Penn State rivalry (which was the big game when I grew up there) and now could lose the Miami rivalry. What do they have to replace that? Rutgers? Temple? UConn? Give me a break, that's deplorable. In hoops, Louisville will not care about a rivalry with SU, they already have two great rivalries in their region with UK and Indiana. It is my bias that SU is par with the best of the ACC schools and now may have to be stuck with a bunch of turkeys.

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Wasn't there talk about Notre Dame becoming a 'kinda member' of the Big East. Where they'd join the conference, but only have to play 3 or 4 conference games and could set up the rest of their schedule however they wanted?

That would set an ugly and dangerous precedent. What would the point of a conference be if the members didn't play by the same rules?

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
What do they have to replace that? Rutgers?

you got it right on the first try. I can't wait till we drop Syracuse at home at the end of this season.

[ShagVT]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
It is my bias that SU is par with the best of the ACC schools and now may have to be stuck with a bunch of turkeys.

Actually, the turkeys are precisely the ones that SU will not be stuck with.

[Anrhydeddu]

I'm thinking back on 50 years of SU football history (many ups and downs) and 30 years of SU basketball history - not the last 5. Penn State was able to move to the Big 10, SU should have had done something similar (moving to a major conference).

[ISiddiqui]

That's your bad for joining a conference, Anrhydeddu... now you gotta stick it out, until someone wants you enough .

[Marmel]

Originally posted by ShagVT
Actually, the turkeys are precisely the ones that SU will not be stuck with.

Syracuse 50, Virginia Tech 42 (3 OT)
November 9, 2002

[ShagVT]

Touche!

[scooper]

Originally posted by Craptacular
Well, a conference that has a good thing going and then gets raided will complain. You could find a lot of people that would argue that CUSA, with teams like Marquette, Louisville, Cincinnati, and Memphis, is already an "elite" basketball conference. Tell me again that no one would complain if Louisville and Cincinnati jumped ship for both sports, or if Marquette and DePaul left for basketball.

A couple points. CUSA is not an elite basketball conference. For years, there was Cincinnati and a few other good programs. Although each has its own history, the others were not top 25 teams for most of the past decade. Until last season, CUSA was weak.

Second: Elite or not, Basketball doesn't matter in this situation. While basketball brings some income, Football money drives college athletics. Do you think the ACC needs Miami and VTech for hoops? No. They are working toward bigger football crowds and deals and specifically, a conference championship game.

Heck, CUSA was formed with football in mind.

[Anrhydeddu]

But Imran, why did it have to be in a conference with Rutgers???

Seriously, don't have to stick it out - conference will constantly be reshuffled and eventually merged into mega-conferences. There will be some semblance of the traditional conferences (ACC, SEC, B10, B12, Pac10) but the rest are just made up on the fly, like the Big East. SU belonged with Penn State as equals but now they are viewed as two seperate tiers.

[Easy Mac]

am i the only one who is amused by the fact that Duke and UNC have been villified by people on both sides of the debate. One side believes they are behind the whole "conspiracy" and the other side is pissed they don't want expansion.

Just bring in VT and Miami, anything farther north doesn't make sense for it to be the ACC, at least as we know it.

[Samdari]

That geography argument is crap. Both SU and BC are closer to the majority of ACC schools than Miami. Another geography lesson - Tallahassee is not on the atlantic coast.

[Anrhydeddu]

Yes it is, all of the world's seas are part of an ocean system (those effected by the tides). The Gulf is part of the Atlantic Ocean.