Today's Hot Button Topic: Is the NBA Viewing Public Racist?

[Chief Rum]

Check out what Phil Taylor for CNNSI has to say:

Arrival of White Europeans Could Maybe Bring More Whites Back To The NBA TV Screen

Maybe I'm just naive, but I was rather shocked at this article. The guy basically comes out and says that the reason ratings have waned for the NBA here in the U.S. is because the viewing public is basically racist (mainstream white America wants more white guys, less corn-row wearing, baggy-short-featuring black guys--not my stereotype--pretty much what he throws out there).

The only thing I agree with is that if NBA ratings do increase again, and it can be clearly linked to the arrival of star "white" players, then, yes, that would be sad and racist and ugly.

But he seems to completely discount the factors that are turning fans off from the game. Such as that Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird are no longer in the league, and no one active seems close to matching their drawing power. Or that the American sports fan (black or white) might appreciate a little efficiency and good play just as much or even more than a flashy dunk or endless three point shots. Or that, quite frankly, the game has simply lost its luster because you can usually predict each year who's gonna win it all anyway. Or it could be this particular Finals (the one he notes with the poor ratings) featured a team centered around one of the most boring superstar personalities in sports and a team that is relatively faceless on the other end. Or that the ridiculous rising arena prices are keeping the working class joe away from seeing games live. And I am sure some of it is also whites being turned off by some of the gang-imagery seemingly promoted by some players, whether legit or not (I leave it for you guys to decide if the perception is actual gang-style attitude/behavior, or just white America's way of labeling the young black male persona in today's society).

I'm not denying that there are no bad reasons for viewers to be turning off the TV when the NBA comes on. I'm sure there are a few that are turned off because they are basically bigots. And I wouldn't be surprised if it works both ways, too. I'm not making accusations here--just pointing out that racism is, unfortunately, human nature.

But as a white man, I'm kinda displeased that this guy would make this jump to conclusion just to write an article (IMO). He discounts all the other reasons for why interest might be waning, except the race card, and since I don't think that's true or supported by any actual facts, I don't think it's fair to make that implication at this point.

For instance, his view doesn't explain me. I used to love the NBA. Magic Johnson was a favorite player of mine. But as the years went by, I feel that pro basketball has gotten further and further away from good, fundamental ball play (which is something I appreciate). And it has become much more about the money and the image, rather than the passion for the game. And I am sure it also has a lot to do that I am mainly a Clippers fan (you want to know why ratings are plunging--try Donald Frickin' Sterling holding down an exciting young team in the middle of the country's #2 media market, rather than exploiting the massive potential for exposure and millions of LA fans and their money).

If I don't watch the NBA anymore because of all the blacks playing the game, why am I watching college basketball? I LOVE college basketball. Always have. The race percentages are about the same, I am guessing, so what's different? Well, it's about the game down there. It's about the passion. Yes, standards have fallen in college basketball, too, just like in the pros, but there are more coaches that teach it right, and there are more good kids--both white and black--who aren't playing for an NBA contract, but for school pride, sportsmanship and a free ride to a degree in college.

So if I am a member of such a mainstream racist society, why do I still watch college basketball?

And then there are his points about the Europeans. Personally, I don't give a flyin' flip about the influx of Europeans. I'm only looking for good players, whether they are European or American, black or white. Good guys that play the game the way it used to be played, with fundamentals and a good work ethic both on and off the court. So if he thinks the return of the "good, white player" is going to bring me running back to the TV, he's in for a shocker.

Oh welll, am I rambling here, or does any of this make sense? What do you guys think?

Chief Rum

[BreizhManu]

Will those people like the league better if it's populated by more Caucasians whose names they can't pronounce? If Antoine Walker and Jermaine O'Neal don't suit your taste, will you really prefer Zarko Cabarkapa or Sofoklis Schortsanitis?

Sofoklis is black, same thing goes for the 3 french drafted this year (Pietrus, Diaw and Morlende) which prooves he really knows the subject...

anyway I must agree with you most people like fundamental ball play and you can hardly see that in the NBA right now, now it's just one on ones and highlights. That's the only reason why the ratings are dropping.

[Blackadar]

The game really sucks the past 10-15 years. Too much flash, not enough fundamentals. Too many bad characters, not enough good guys. The rules are different ("the Jordan rules") for different players. If Kobe has driven the lane in the last year without traveling, I haven't seen it. If Shaq has been in the low post without fouling, I haven't seen it. People like Antione Walker throw up 3 pointers without any regard as to whether they can or should shoot them. Whiny players like Rasheed Wallace get away with murder. Or attacking their coach, like Spreewell.

It's boring, frankly.

[Ksyrup]

The problem with his argument is that it isn't a black vs. white thing, it's a North American style vs. European style thing. And most - not all, but most - of the players from Europe are white, so maybe that's where his white vs. black thing comes in. But, if more people enjoy that style of basketball then the chest thumping, one-on-one, look-at-me style of basketball that North America has produced over the past 2 decades - prevalent in both black AND white NA players - then that's just what it is. But it's got nothing to do with racism - it's the style of basketball.

I may be funny this way, but I like my basketball players with a little bit of shooting ability. I also prefer a game that features 12 players on each side and 5 on the court at all times, to be a "team sport." And that's not what the NBA is about these days, and hasn't been for quite awhile. So I guess I need to apologize to black people everywhere because I don't like the NBA, and "they" make up -what's the percentage now, 70% or more? - a large percentage of the NBA. So I'm sorry - sorry that more North American players think Allen Iverson, and not Tim Duncan, is the model basketball player. That must be my fault.

[Samdari]

It actually seems to me that we Americans are progressing as a society far enough that we have let our jingoism overcome our racism. I don't see as where the NBA audience has embraced white foreigners over black Americans. In fact, rumor has it is that Kiki kept the #3 pick (which was going to be Melo, whoever made the pick) because his designated pair of forwards of the future were foreign and would not sell tickets. Carmelo will.

[cuervo72]

I think to some extent, the perception of the NBA is moving away from the mainstream. In the 80's/90's there were still plenty of black players, but they didn't have the trash talking, hip-hop, corn-row, gang-banger image associated with them (as even some of the white players - besides the corn-rows - now do). At least not that I can recall. Now does every black player today fit that stereotype? Of course not. But that stereotype is out there. And I'm sure there are plenty of people who think of that stereotype and say "bah, I don't want to watch a bunch of trash-talking, hip-hopping gang-bangers out there".

Let's turn this around...for years, NASCAR was around but didn't have the national following it does today. What was one of the reasons for that? The stereotyping of the drivers and those who followed the sport - a bunch of beer swilling, tobacco chewing redneck southern boys. There are a lot of people (myself included) who were put off by that stereotype. I'd say NASCAR has been trying to move away from that stereotype, bringing it more into the mainstream - and it's popularity has boomed.

And then there's soccer

[MrBug708]

If Kobe has driven the lane in the last year without traveling, I haven't seen it. If Shaq has been in the low post without fouling

Time to start watching then

[ice4277]

Originally posted by cuervo72
Let's turn this around...for years, NASCAR was around but didn't have the national following it does today. What was one of the reasons for that? The stereotyping of the drivers and those who followed the sport - a bunch of beer swilling, tobacco chewing redneck southern boys. There are a lot of people (myself included) who were put off by that stereotype. I'd say NASCAR has been trying to move away from that stereotype, bringing it more into the mainstream - and it's popularity has boomed.

Oh, no, trust me, it still VERY much has that stereotype.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by ice4277
Oh, no, trust me, it still VERY much has that stereotype.

It does, but I don't think it's as bad as it used to be. I for one (ok, not a large sample size) don't view it quite as I had. There are more and more young drivers that don't fit the good ol' boy stereotype, starting with Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart (no coincidence these are two of the most hated drivers on the circuit?). They've also been adding tracks in places outside the traditional NASCAR stomping grounds of FL/GA/NC, such as Las Vegas, California, Chicago, New Hampshire, Watkins Glen.

[Samdari]

Actually cuervo, I think that the booming popularity of NASCAR has less to do with moving away from redneckism than the general populace of this country embracing the redneck lifestyle more and more. Rednecks love NASCAR and hate the NBA, and more Americans are converting to redneck (is there a church where this is done? What kind of ceremony is involved?) than ever.

And Watkins Glen is not something that has been added in the recent NASCAR boom, they've been racing there (and Pocono) as long as I have been aware of sports, which dates back to mid/early 1980's.

[Dutch]

If racism is such a big part of society that it creates such great hot topic conversation....the math would suggest that at least some percentage of our very own FOFC society are racists. So all FOFC racists please speak up now. I doubt there really are any that are popular around here to be honest. Or is it just a myth that gets a lot of attention? Why is yelling the 'race card' so popular? Because it gets attention. It's really sad, but newspapers and TV do it all the time in hopes of getting somebody to stick around long enough to glance over at the add to the left or right of the article or stick around through to the commercial break.

It ends up being our society as a whole who pays the price with suspicion and mistrust for one just to get some editor or producer a few extra bucks...

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Dutch
If racism is such a big part of society that it creates such great hot topic conversation....the math would suggest that at least some percentage of our very own FOFC society are racists. So all FOFC racists please speak up now. I doubt there really are any that are popular around here to be honest. Or is it just a myth that gets a lot of attention? Why is yelling the 'race card' so popular? Because it gets attention. It's really sad, but newspapers and TV do it all the time in hopes of getting somebody to stick around long enough to glance over at the add to the left or right of the article or stick around through to the commercial break.

It ends up being our society as a whole who pays the price with suspicion and mistrust for one just to get some editor or producer a few extra bucks...

Or maybe, racists don't know they are racist.

[Havok]

These europeans are one of the reasons im actually starting to watch NBA a "little bit" more. The NBA has gotten WAY out of hand lately. Its ridiculous, these guys are supposed to be role models and they act like 12 year old kids playing street ball. Makes me sick really. But these europeans play team ball and its more fun to watch in my opinion. I'd much rather watch the old "Celtic's or Lakers" then the new Lakers or the Magic where its the Tracey Mcgrady show every night.

I actually wasn't that mad when our last "dream team" got they're asses kicked a couple times. Serves them right for not taking the rest of the world seriously. Im not saying that everyone in the NBA is like that, they're are still guys like Tim Duncan out there who understand this concept.

alos.... I don't think the whole "more white people will watch" thing should be considered racist. Ask 100 black people who they're favorite women's tennis player is and i guarrentee 99.9% will say Venus or Serena. Same thing goes with golf.... Tiger, Tiger, Tiger. Ask 100 Mexican's who they're favorite boxer is and i guarrentee 99% of them will say a Mexican (weather he's american/mexican or from mexico).

What if a Mexican becomes the next "Jordan" in basketball. Don't you think the amount of Mexicans that watch basketball would increase alot??? Of course it would. The amount of black people that watch golf is probally alot higher since Tiger has come along.

Its not unheard of for people to be slightly bias towards an athlete that looks like them or is from the same place they are from or whatever. It actually good for the sport because more people are watching. And it doesn't make them racist.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Samdari
Actually cuervo, I think that the booming popularity of NASCAR has less to do with moving away from redneckism than the general populace of this country embracing the redneck lifestyle more and more. Rednecks love NASCAR and hate the NBA, and more Americans are converting to redneck (is there a church where this is done? What kind of ceremony is involved?) than ever.

And Watkins Glen is not something that has been added in the recent NASCAR boom, they've been racing there (and Pocono) as long as I have been aware of sports, which dates back to mid/early 1980's.

Mmm, I don't know if Americans are converting to being redneck. Any other examples of this (excepting Jeff Foxworthy and Roseanne)? Good point about Watkins Glen, I didn't know how long they had been racing there but figured I'd mention it (I knew they'd been racing Pocono for a while).

Originally posted by John Galt
Or maybe, racists don't know they are racist.

Well, at what point does ethnocentrism end and racism begin? Aren't there many who are accusing the latter when it is really the former?

[vtbub]

That's just a real bad article.

According to conventional wisdom, the top three players drafted this year are can't miss players. Two of them are not Eurowhite.

The NBA has spent more time being bad then good. As late as 1983, finals games were being shown tape delay late night. They had a bad package and a bad product. Then came the triumverate, Magic, Larry, and MJ. They marketed hard, play and ratings were excellent, it was early summer's must see TV.

Now there are too many teams, too much money, and plenty of players who can't play and even MORE marketing. Frankly, I don't care if Allen Iverson delivers babies at halftime, when he can't make 6 out of 10 shots, it's bad basketball.

Has the "Snoop Doggy" image hurt? Probably to some degree. Millionare brats who can't speak decent English are not going to warm themselves to the casual fan, no matter what color they are.

The perception of selfishness has hurt Major League Baseball a ton. Writers will tell you that the Carl Everett's and Wil Cordero's are few and far between. How many people here on the other hand can relate to the money A-Rod makes? Has it made Texas any better?

That's where the NBA is headed, it's all about me. MLB has history and can pull at heartstrings that no other sport can. Mark McGwire rooted just as hard for Sammy Sosa, as we rooted for them both. That was a magic summer. The NBA doesn't have that depth. It's a regional game, with a lot of whining. It's a sport relegated to regional cable that doesn't translate well on the radio that many families can't afford to see.

[KWhit]

Originally posted by Havok
Its not unheard of for people to be slightly bias towards an athlete that looks like them or is from the same place they are from or whatever. It actually good for the sport because more people are watching. And it doesn't make them racist.

Racist.

[albionmoonlight]

Assumption #1--the "one-on-one," high-flying, dunk-centric, hyper-athletic, trash-talking style of basketball that has its roots on the street courts of America is "black basketball."

Assumption #2--the pass-first, team-oriented, earth-bound, fundamentally-sound style of basketball that has its roots in european coaching is "white basketball."

If both assumptions are true (and I am not saying that they are--though the fact that Jason William's nickname is "white chocolate" would seem to indicate something to me) and if I prefer style #2 (I do), then does that make me a racist? If I prefer the style of ball played by white people, not because the players who do it are white, but because I like/relate to the style--is that a racial thing at all? I don't think so, but I think that others may disagree with me.

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by John Galt
Or maybe, racists don't know they are racist.

So you make a flippant blanket statement instead of addressing the common theme that most have brought up here? Hmmm.

What you are implying (going back when this was brought up before) that we should embrace the attitudes and styles of players that are refered to as: "these guys are supposed to be role models and they act like 12 year old kids playing street ball." or "but they didn't have the trash talking, hip-hop, corn-row, gang-banger image associated with them (as even some of the white players - besides the corn-rows - now do)." or "Too much flash, not enough fundamentals. Too many bad characters, not enough good guys. The rules are different ("the Jordan rules") for different players." or "People like Antione Walker throw up 3 pointers without any regard as to whether they can or should shoot them. Whiny players like Rasheed Wallace get away with murder. Or attacking their coach, like Spreewell." or "I feel that pro basketball has gotten further and further away from good, fundamental ball play (which is something I appreciate). And it has become much more about the money and the image"

because if we don't, then we are racist and thus, we are bad people? I don't accept much of the NBA for the exact reasons given here because I want a better product, better attitudes and a better image.

You know, it sounds like there are a bunch of grumpy old men here all wanting the NBA to return to the fundamentals and actions from the past before it turned into one-on-one street hoops.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by cuervo72
Well, at what point does ethnocentrism end and racism begin? Aren't there many who are accusing the latter when it is really the former?

Now that's a good question. I think that often racism is a proxy for ethnocentrism and vice versa. Trying to separate 'isms is usually not a worthwhile exercise because you discover a lot of overlap. For example, a lot of people believe vtbub's comment that, "Millionare brats who can't speak decent English" uses language skills as a proxy for racism (no offense intended - just using an easy example from this thread). Judging someone based on inner-city or black language use is often the same as judging them based on their skin color. It is just that we can rationalize language and claim not be racist.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
So you make a flippant blanket statement instead of addressing the common theme that most have brought up here? Hmmm.

Give me some credit - usually I bore everyone with overly long and condescending posts.

And I was going to say more (as I just did), but I wanted to first attack the notion that there aren't many racists because people say they aren't racist.

[John Galt]

dola,

"Better Image" is culturally defined. When one says they want a better image, they import an array of cultural opinions about what is excellence. For some parts of black America, Iverson is iconic and is a "better image." For some parts of white America, Iverson is everything wrong with America. "Better" is never neutral and objective in matters like this.

[albionmoonlight]

I understand your point, John, but I still believe that I get to have a preference. I do not like when public figures (or anyone for that matter) misuse language. If part of "black culture" is misuse of language, I still don't like it.

Perhaps my attitude in this respect causes me to dislike black speech in particular. To me, such an attitude is not "racist" because it is not irrational. I wish that everyone used proper language. I wish that more black people used proper language. I wish that more white people used proper language. I am not going to change my views on what make a good and respectable person just because some of the traits that I do not respect happen to coorolate to minority racial status.

I would never force someone to change the way they speak, act, or dress. I will not, however, pretend to like everyone's choices.

[Anrhydeddu]

But aren't there positive values that can be applied to all humans regardless of race and culture? I mean if education (for example) is seen as good thing (as oppose to being un-educated), how should one react to anyone (whether individually or a culture) that does not value education? Or perhaps a better example. If a lifestyle encourages and glorifies the shady side of the law or engaging in unlawful behavior, should we not encourage and support the opposite? Where it can get a little fuzzy is in style. Everyone has an opinion of what styles they like and don't like (even Galt), that is natural. But if the NBA wants to promote and perpetuate a style of play that some/many do not like, can we have the right to criticize that without being called racist?

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by John Galt
Now that's a good question. I think that often racism is a proxy for ethnocentrism and vice versa. Trying to separate 'isms is usually not a worthwhile exercise because you discover a lot of overlap. For example, a lot of people believe vtbub's comment that, "Millionare brats who can't speak decent English" uses language skills as a proxy for racism (no offense intended - just using an easy example from this thread). Judging someone based on inner-city or black language use is often the same as judging them based on their skin color. It is just that we can rationalize language and claim not be racist.

Good points. Is it ever possible to safely object to a particular behavior that is associated with blacks? I am mildly annoyed with general ignorance and degredation of the English language, of which inner-city language (so called "ebonics") is just one flavor (I was also disapproving of Webster's adding terms such as "phat" and "dot-commer" to the dictionary....). But how can I hold that opinion without being labeled racist?

As an aside....I am bothered more by Millionaire technology brats (hello, Mr. Snyder) than millionaire bball players.

[TroyF]

The guy who wrote this is an uninformed buffoon.

The ratings continue to slide for numerous reasons. We talk about the lack of fundamentals and the team game. . . but I think it goes deeper than that. I think it's as much how physical the play is as much as anything. Why did Kareem develop his skyhook? Why did Kevin McHale have an unlimited arsenal of low post moves? Why did teams who couldn't shoot the ball well average nearly 100 points a game before?

Simple, not only did teams run more, the game was about POSITION, not STRENGTH. Even if you shot the ball poorly, you could score because the offense had the advantage. The onus was on the defensive teams to get into proper position. Even a great defensive team wasn't able to do this on a consistent basis.

The Euro's still play the game that way, which is the game I love to watch. I watched less basketball this year than I ever have before. The games I tried to catch? Mavericks, Kings, T-Wolves, Spurs. The Spurs played ugly, but TD is one of my favorite players in all of sports. Garnett is pure joy to watch. I love watching Webber and Bibby run the break together.

I'm watching less because of race? Please. . .

TroyF

[KWhit]

Originally posted by John Galt
"Better Image" is culturally defined. When one says they want a better image, they import an array of cultural opinions about what is excellence. For some parts of black America, Iverson is iconic and is a "better image." For some parts of white America, Iverson is everything wrong with America. "Better" is never neutral and objective in matters like this.

I agree with you here.

However, black people who believe that Iverson should be the epitome of the NBA are never labeled racists. White people who would like to see another Larry Bird are often called racist (and you can substitute any current white player for Bird, like Nowitzki, Nash, etc.).

[cuervo72]

Nicely put, Anrhy-d.

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by John Galt
dola,

"Better Image" is culturally defined. When one says they want a better image, they import an array of cultural opinions about what is excellence. For some parts of black America, Iverson is iconic and is a "better image." For some parts of white America, Iverson is everything wrong with America. "Better" is never neutral and objective in matters like this.

This was my point I was addressing before you wrote this.

I tried several attempts at responding to this but none of it makes sense. I'll shutup for now.

[Anrhydeddu]

I am mildly annoyed with general ignorance and degredation of the English language, of which inner-city language (so called "ebonics") is just one flavor (I was also disapproving of Webster's adding terms such as "phat" and "dot-commer" to the dictionary....). But how can I hold that opinion without being labeled racist?

So are many educated black leaders and clergy but they are shouting down for being 'whitey'.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
I understand your point, John, but I still believe that I get to have a preference. I do not like when public figures (or anyone for that matter) misuse language. If part of "black culture" is misuse of language, I still don't like it.

Perhaps my attitude in this respect causes me to dislike black speech in particular. To me, such an attitude is not "racist" because it is not irrational. I wish that everyone used proper language. I wish that more black people used proper language. I wish that more white people used proper language. I am not going to change my views on what make a good and respectable person just because some of the traits that I do not respect happen to coorolate to minority racial status.

I would never force someone to change the way they speak, act, or dress. I will not, however, pretend to like everyone's choices.

Language is not a neutral, static thing. It changes all the time and is never the same for very far. It is often said that America and the UK are separated by a common language. Words like "ya'll" and "whatcha" reflect regional dialects. Just because a dictionary doesn't recognize them doesn't mean they aren't used. The internet has added whole new layers to language ranging from kooldudz speak to AOL shorthand. In black America, words like "ask" are often pronounced differently.

The point isn't that we shouldn't strive for a common language, but judging someone based on used different language often masks racism. It is easy to see a "punk" like Iverson as "stupid" or "un-educated" because of the way he talks when you are white and speak in a different way. The point is, he may be neither of those things, but language allows a proxy for racism.

Use another example like hair. Until a lawsuit against a major hotel chain, many companies considered cornrows to be unprofessional and prohibited them from being used at work.

Or names. We had a thread before about how "black" names significantly decreased the chance of getting an interview with identical resumes.

Or background. Sometimes it is easy to look at a white kid from the suburbs and say his arrest for pot was a childhood indiscretion while looking at a black American with the same arrest may lead one to raise "character" issues. These shootings of athletes over the last few years have raised similar "character" flags when the athlete is black even though they were random based on available evidence. When a black kid gets in trouble in Compton, someone may say, "Well, what was he doing there in the first place?" - ignoring that Compton has different relevance in black and white communities.

Race informs our opinions in ways we often don't realize.

[John Galt]

The fear of being a racist.

Or more precisely, the fear of being called a racist.

This is one of the thorniest problems in discussing any race issue. No one wants to be a racist, so they deny every argument that they use race in their decision. Or better yet, they point out how other races do the same thing.

The point that I'm trying to make is that we are all racists. We all use race to make decisions. Sometimes it is via proxies (like above or when buying a house in a "nice" neighborhood) and other times it is more direct (walking home at night a bit quicker when followed by a group of gangsta-styled black teens). Race matters.

I think that is an important thing to recognize, because race affects our decisions and once you realize that you can start to minimize the ways it does. Rather than looking out and justifying, you can look in and improve.

When someone calls me a racist and explains why, I thank them, because I know it will make me a better person. I don't want to be a racist, but I know that for the time being, I am.

[Anrhydeddu]

You know, I would love to hear Galt say once - just once - that blacks can be racist and have the same racist attitudes as white. In the past year, every single time we bring this up, he always comes up with one-way examples of racism and cultural bias.

So much for shutting up.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
You know, I would love to hear Galt say once - just once - that blacks can be racist and have the same racist attitudes as white. In the past year, every single time we bring this up, he always comes up with one-way examples of racism and cultural bias.

So much for shutting up.

See my above post - we are all racists. The problem is whites typically have power and define mainstream culture. That has a net negative effect on blacks and other minorities. Until black neighborhoods aren't almost all black because of low property values or racist housing policies, I'm more concerned about white racism than black racism. Housing segregation is the single most important issue in race today, but no one has a good solution. Until then, our cultures and schools and peoples will remain divided and different.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
You know, I would love to hear Galt say once - just once - that blacks can be racist and have the same racist attitudes as white. In the past year, every single time we bring this up, he always comes up with one-way examples of racism and cultural bias.

So much for shutting up.

Shut up already, you honkey!

[Anrhydeddu]

See my above post - we are all racists. The problem is whites typically have power and define mainstream culture. That has a net negative effect on blacks and other minorities. Until black neighborhoods aren't almost all black because of low property values or racist housing policies, I'm more concerned about white racism than black racism. Housing segregation is the single most important issue in race today, but no one has a good solution. Until then, our cultures and schools and peoples will remain divided and different.

...or maybe blacks (or any other cultural groups) prefer to associate among themselves?

That is not to say that such policies do not exist but like with anything else, if we want to identify a cause then we surely will find what we want to see.

[Anrhydeddu]

dola

I blame my friend Chief Rum.

Let's make it a rule of no more hot topics this week.

[vtbub]

Millionaire brats come in all shapes, sizes, gender, color, orientation and disability.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
...or maybe blacks (or any other cultural groups) prefer to associate among themselves?

That is not to say that such policies do not exist but like with anything else, if we want to identify a cause then we surely will find what we want to see.

I'm not denying the truth to that - I saying that blacks usually don't have a choice because of a long legacy of racist housing policies (which define school districts and so many other subcultural aspects of modern life). For a quick summary of some of the things I'm referring to, I found this with a quick google search:

http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/...rticle_ID=4436

I'm sorry if I've threadjacked. I'm still talking about racism, but I guess I went a little off target.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by John Galt
See my above post - we are all racists. The problem is whites typically have power and define mainstream culture. That has a net negative effect on blacks and other minorities. Until black neighborhoods aren't almost all black because of low property values or racist housing policies, I'm more concerned about white racism than black racism. Housing segregation is the single most important issue in race today, but no one has a good solution. Until then, our cultures and schools and peoples will remain divided and different.

You'd damned well better be concerned about both types, because as long as one exists the other will certainly follow.

There is a lot of racism that exists in this country. Please look at my rants on the lack of black head football coaches if you don't think I can't see that.

Yet, this "we're all racists" BS is just BS. Yes, everyone stereotypes. Stereotyping is a different thing than racism is. All we have to do is open up a simple dictionary to determine the meaning of racism:

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

I don't believe I'm superior to anyone, regardless of race.

I do not discriminate based on race either. If I'm walking down the street at midnight and I see a group of teenagers with bandanas playing loud music, will I speed up my pace a little bit? Damn right I will. Of course, what isn't said in your example is that I'd pick up the pace regardless of the skin colors of those individuals. It's dark and I'm alone. There is more of them than there is of me. White people stab and rob just as easily as a latino or a black.

Is that stereotyping? Yup. I'm stereotyping teenagers as a whole and it isn't really fair. Most groups of black and white teens would do nothing to trouble me. I also have stereotypes of gay people, poor black people, white rich guys, white guys who live in trailer parks, and about every other group of people that exists on the planet.

The goal is to control those stereotypes so that I never feel that I'm superior to any of those people and that I treat them with respect regardless of the reason I stereotype them in the first place.

Of course, the sad thing, with all of the PC going around is that if you defend yourself as a non-racist. . . you are a racist.

TroyF

[vtbub]

There is a difference between culture bias and racism.

Personally, I really don't care what any of these people do in their own lives.

It does matter how they perform their craft. Why? We all pay for it. Your mother who would know Iverson from Ivanhoe, chances are, pays a cable bill, buys clothes or eats foods endorsed by atheletes or entertainers. We pay their salary.

Their job is to produce the best product. It's clear that they are not. Jordan's last championship brought higher ratings than the World Series, and I'll go out on a limb here and say that Greg Ostertag and Toni Kukoc were not the main draws for that.

There is a major problem when your ratings fall 66% in five years. Is race a factor, I'm sure to some degree. I couldn't watch because it was BORING. THE NBA IS BORING. I don't care if it was an all white team of bricklayers from Nebraska, the product is horrid.

I understand that there are those out there who are rabid NBA fans who think we are all nuts. As far as the "Whitey" black against the "hip-hop" arguement goes, the series featured Tim Duncan and David Robinson. You can't get more well spoken and intelligent than that, and it still bombed. No one accuses Shaq of being a genius, but people watch him.

The name of the game is getting the casual fan to watch. Right now they are not. Work on the product and people will watch.

[Anrhydeddu]

vtbub, I agree with what you said. But I would ask "why has it become boring". What is it that they are teaching or encouraging that presents the NBA as a boring (or unwatchable) product? To me, it's the "be like Mike" factor - the insane desire to walk down the floor for 18 seconds and then drive to the hoop for a slam the last 6 seconds of the shot clock. The rest of the players are just standing around.

What we have gone off on the tangent is about the "image" and promotion of the NBA to a more specific demographics. Maybe this goes hand in hand with the style of play, I don't know.

[Anrhydeddu]

Since ebonics was brought up, I thought this was an excellent article from Education Week

Language Lessons

[Craptacular]

Bring back the nuthuggers.

[Havok]

Originally posted by KWhit
Racist.

LOL!!! i was wondering who was gonna do that

[Havok]

Originally posted by TroyF
You'd damned well better be concerned about both types, because as long as one exists the other will certainly follow.

There is a lot of racism that exists in this country. Please look at my rants on the lack of black head football coaches if you don't think I can't see that.

Yet, this "we're all racists" BS is just BS. Yes, everyone stereotypes. Stereotyping is a different thing than racism is. All we have to do is open up a simple dictionary to determine the meaning of racism:

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

I don't believe I'm superior to anyone, regardless of race.

I do not discriminate based on race either. If I'm walking down the street at midnight and I see a group of teenagers with bandanas playing loud music, will I speed up my pace a little bit? Damn right I will. Of course, what isn't said in your example is that I'd pick up the pace regardless of the skin colors of those individuals. It's dark and I'm alone. There is more of them than there is of me. White people stab and rob just as easily as a latino or a black.

Is that stereotyping? Yup. I'm stereotyping teenagers as a whole and it isn't really fair. Most groups of black and white teens would do nothing to trouble me. I also have stereotypes of gay people, poor black people, white rich guys, white guys who live in trailer parks, and about every other group of people that exists on the planet.

The goal is to control those stereotypes so that I never feel that I'm superior to any of those people and that I treat them with respect regardless of the reason I stereotype them in the first place.

Of course, the sad thing, with all of the PC going around is that if you defend yourself as a non-racist. . . you are a racist.

TroyF

What a breath of fresh air.... i was starting to get a little frustrated reading this thread after John Galt started his liberal ranting, but finally..... a man with some commen sense!

well said Troy

[McSweeny]

all i know is i miss Larry Bird. It was so much fun to watch the Celtics back when he was playing (and didn't suck). Does that make me racist? I should hope not. It was the style of play, not the color of his skin or if he was European or not. I cannot stand to watch NBA games anymore. Way too much one-on-one crap. So that makes me racist? bah

[vtbub]

Why's it boring?

Too much money. Too many teams. Not enough talent.

[Marmel]

Originally posted by John Galt

but I wanted to first attack the notion that there aren't many racists because people say they aren't racist.

John, I saw you coming before I even opened this thread up. You need to be a bit more unpredictable.

[vtbub]

Perv

[John Galt]

Originally posted by TroyF
Yet, this "we're all racists" BS is just BS. Yes, everyone stereotypes. Stereotyping is a different thing than racism is. All we have to do is open up a simple dictionary to determine the meaning of racism:

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others

Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

I don't believe I'm superior to anyone, regardless of race.

I do not discriminate based on race either. If I'm walking down the street at midnight and I see a group of teenagers with bandanas playing loud music, will I speed up my pace a little bit? Damn right I will. Of course, what isn't said in your example is that I'd pick up the pace regardless of the skin colors of those individuals. It's dark and I'm alone. There is more of them than there is of me. White people stab and rob just as easily as a latino or a black.

Is that stereotyping? Yup. I'm stereotyping teenagers as a whole and it isn't really fair. Most groups of black and white teens would do nothing to trouble me. I also have stereotypes of gay people, poor black people, white rich guys, white guys who live in trailer parks, and about every other group of people that exists on the planet.

The goal is to control those stereotypes so that I never feel that I'm superior to any of those people and that I treat them with respect regardless of the reason I stereotype them in the first place.

Of course, the sad thing, with all of the PC going around is that if you defend yourself as a non-racist. . . you are a racist.

Just a few thoughts before I get back to work.

First off, I don't think a dictionary definition is a good way to look at "racism." Dictionaries aren't so good for 'ism type words and don't usually gather the real underlying meaning of a power-charged word.

Second, stereotyping and reacting is prejudice and discrimination (part of your definition).

Third, not believing you are superior is only part of the picture. See the ideas of proxies above.

Fourth, your stereotype example is good and illustrative. My point is that even when you react the same way to white teenagers, it is in part because of the way they are dressed and act - a way more commonly found in inner-city black kids. Clothes and style become proxies for race.

Fifth, I don't know what you mean in regards to PC - I've never leveled the label "racist" at anyone moreso than I adopt it myself. You may be talking about someone else here, but I'm not sure how it applies to what I'm saying.