The transfer addict is closer to being out of debt

[Qwikshot]

I know I've been a pain recently with my suggestion to VI and etc, etc... but I'm proud to say that I sold off my 29 y.o solid winger for about 60k and my 26/7 y.o. solid defender for about 115k...bringing me to about -85k...most of you would wonder why this is a miracle but until you've seen my dynasty you would know I'm a transfer junkie...I did spend though on a winger...I couldn't resist.

Please tell me if what I did was wise...

Carl Leonard (13547376)
17 years, passable form, healthy

A sympathetic guy who is temperamental and honest.
Has disastrous experience and inadequate leadership abilities.

Nationality: USA
Assessed value: 97 000 US$
Wage: 960 US$/week
Owner: Ultra Nox
Warnings: 0


Stamina: inadequate Goaltending: disastrous
Playmaking: poor Passing: passable
Winger: passable Defending: poor
Scoring: inadequate Set Pieces: weak

Career Goals: 0
Career Hattricks: 0
League goals this season: 0
Cup goals this season: 0

He was purchased for 59k. He's American, he'll be eighteen and I'm training playmaking...good deal?

I now has 4 wingers (1 solid, 3 passable) that I can consistently play without tinkering...

My oldest player will be 23...the team age average is 19.

This team is built well together now...of course, I cannot hit the market again like I did before but by the end of next season, regardless of division, I should have some good players, and some good sellable players...

[Qwikshot]

Which brings me to a question...just how important is winger to the winger position?

Is a solid winger with weak passing/ weak PM as good as a passable winger with poor passing/ inadequate PM?

Would an excellent winger with poor PM/passing still be better than say a passable winger with passable secondaries?

And I know stamina is crucial.

[Desnudo]

Assuming a winger played on normal, I think the rankings would go Winger, PM, Passing, Defense, Stamina. Obviously the scale changes if you're playing them offensive or towards the middle.

[Qwikshot]

Okay so winger offensive would be then?,,,

[Bee]

I have a solid winger with weak PMing, inadequate passing and poor stamina that puts up 3 stars every week playing as an offensive winger or normal, so I'd say winger is still the most important rating.

Edit: I think the winger skill is probably the most overlooked skill in the game. On my other wing, I've tried passable PMs with inadequate wing and even a solid pm with weak wing and no one puts up the numbers my solid winger does.

[Desnudo]

Originally posted by Qwikshot
Okay so winger offensive would be then?,,,

Offensive winger would be more passing and less defensive I think.

[Masked]

Originally posted by Desnudo
Offensive winger would be more passing and less defensive I think.

Edit: I think i misread the post.

Edit: Useful contribution
The order of skill importance for an offensive winger would be winger, PM, passing/stamina, stamina/passing, defense. Stamina is as important for a wingers PM skill as it is for an IM.

[Desnudo]

From what I've seen, stamina doesn't seem to matter nearly as much to wingers as it does to IMs, but I could be wrong.

[Masked]

Originally posted by Desnudo
From what I've seen, stamina doesn't seem to matter nearly as much to wingers as it does to IMs, but I could be wrong.

It effects how much their PM skill influences the midfield. If your wingers have bad PM, then stamina doesn't matter. If the winger has solid PM but poor stamina, the solid PM is wasted.

At least based on what I've seen.

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by Desnudo
Offensive winger would be more passing and less defensive I think.

An offensive winger is more winger, less defense. Taken from the ABC of Tactics.

FM

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by Masked
It effects how much their PM skill influences the midfield. If your wingers have bad PM, then stamina doesn't matter. If the winger has solid PM but poor stamina, the solid PM is wasted.

At least based on what I've seen.

Masked, I see the exact same way. Stamina has even mroe importance for a winger that you'd want to play toward the middle. Without stamina, all of his contribution to your midfield rating would be greatly reduced...

FM

[Desnudo]

What about on offensive?

[TargetPractice6]

Don't think of stamina position wise. Stamina only has an effect on the playmaking skill. Therefore the more playmaking the position uses, the greater effect of stamina.

An offensive winger is more winger, less defense. Taken from the ABC of Tactics.

Which was taken from the HT Rules: A recommended read for everybody atleast once.

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by TargetPractice6
Which was taken from the HT Rules: A recommended read for everybody atleast once.

I know, and I've read the rules many times. I just found his way of presenting things easier for me at the beginning...

FM

[BishopMVP]

Stamina also can play a part for defenders, but inadequate or above should be enough for them.

[TargetPractice6]

It's a special event though. It doesn't have an effect on the defending skill.

[daedalus]

This may sound drastic and on the limb here but . . .

To arbitrarily declare playmaking as the second most important skill on any and all winger just seems silly to me. In my opinion, more so than any other position, Hattrick wingers seems to have very specific roles coinciding with their instructions and, thus, needs the appropriate skills for those roles.

As an example, I know many of the upper level teams play with one winger 'toward middle' and one 'offensive' (amongst FOFCers, I'm pretty sure Billy and TP does and I'm sure a few others have or will follow soon). The idea being that, with the importance of midfield and possession in Hattrick, the 'toward middle' winger gives you another (almost) inner midfielder to fight for the ball while the 'offensive' winger tries to hook up with the forwards to score.

Now, on that 'toward middle' winger, I may consider his playmaking and stamina to be of the utmost importance and take as good of a winger and passing skills combination as I can get. I would probably be happy with an excellent playmaker who is only passable on the wing and is really an inadequate passer for this role.

However, on that 'offensive' winger, I may consider his ability on the wing and passing skill to be of the utmost importance, trusting in my 3 1/2 inner midfielders (the 1/2 being his opposite number playing toward the middle) to get me the ball. I mean, certainly, SOME playmaking would probably be nice to not be a complete waste of (virtual) oxygen but it may not be the first or second skill I look for in someone to fill this role.

[daedalus]

Originally posted by Qwikshot
He was purchased for 59k. He's American, he'll be eighteen and I'm training playmaking...good deal?

Higher than my budget allows so I don't know about price range, but a lot of the 59 000 probably had to do with his age so it's probably justified. Since wingers only get 50% training, he's definitely going to be a long term project before his playmaking will make very much of a dent in your midfield since it'll take about a full season for him to pop in playmaking, playing exclusively on the wing. One *possible* alternative is to rotate him into the inner midfield slot for training purposes to get him extra midfield training. The result is that the two that rotates ends up with 75% training per week on the average instead. I do believe Frogger does this (and probably has the Excel file to prove it) and he seems happy with it (but then he's from Quebec so, y'know . . . ).

Is a solid winger with weak passing/ weak PM as good as a passable winger with poor passing/ inadequate PM?

Again, it all depends on what you're looking for. If you are looking for offense from the wing, then the first player works better by a long shot (solid/weak versus passable/poor). If you wanted some contribution to your midfield, then the second player might get warrant a more serious look (assuming he has the stamina to back up his playmaking skill).

Also, if you look in the Rules page (section: 13. Players), you'll see that the winger skill gets first consideration for attack from that side and passing checks in at third. So, on a player with near equivalent ratings (say, solid/inadequate versus passable/passble - assuming middle of the road skill for each level), the higher winger skill (the solid/inadequate) would probably contribute more. Throw the monkey wrench that is playmaking into this mess and it becomes a matter of needs and the role the winger is to fill.

Overall, I think it's best to figure out what contribution you expect from each position and what role they play in the overall scheme before trying to figure out the magical formula that should apply to those positions.

[Qwikshot]

Thanks daedalus...now if you could only keep me from flying too high to the sun...

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by daedalus
One *possible* alternative is to rotate him into the inner midfield slot for training purposes to get him extra midfield training. The result is that the two that rotates ends up with 75% training per week on the average instead. I do believe Frogger does this (and probably has the Excel file to prove it) and he seems happy with it (but then he's from Quebec so, y'know . . . ).

No, daedy, I don't know, what are you talking about?

As a matter of fact, yes I do rotate some trainees, but not specifically my wingers, and yes there's an excel spreadsheet involved That spreadsheet is derived from TP6's and apoc's training sheet (can't remember who did it first so credit goes to both). I'll post a screen dump of my version tonight.

What I did is I came across a few 17yo inadequate and passable playmakers at some point this season and bought too many of them. So instead of putting them back on the market, I decided to do the rotation thing. I usually rotate 3 guys over one winger spot. That way they get an even better average training (83.3% or so).

Qwik, what daedalus said about the wingers is very true. I want my wingers to help me offensively, so I have 2 wingers that I consider true wingers, that I play exclusively offensively, and for whom I don't care about their training. For that reason, I don't care if they are old or young, as I don't consider them as part of my training program. Here they are:

Keimo Peltola (7458179)
23 years, solid form, healthy
Speciality: Head
Stamina: solid Goaltending: disastrous
Playmaking: weak Passing: inadequate
Winger: passable Defending: wretched
Scoring: weak Set Pieces: wretched

Not the very best, but he has given me 2.5 stars every game I played him offensively at wing. Paid him only 18k around the middle of last season.

Herman 'Moggis' Lewblom (5096920)
30 years, passable form, healthy
Speciality: Unpredictable
Stamina: wretched Goaltending: disastrous
Playmaking: weak Passing: passable
Winger: solid Defending: weak
Scoring: inadequate Set Pieces: inadequate

One of my latest buy on the market. Paid 48k for him and he has given me 3 stars when in solid form, and 2.5 stars (probably a high 2.5) when in passable form both times played offensively. I know he's old, but I was looking for an attack boost on the side, and I got just that.

As you can see, both these players have only weak playmaking but I don't care, as I see their role to be the increase in attack.

I will probably play only one of them at the same time when I will still be alive in the Cup, replacing one of the winger spot with one of my inner mid trainee with passable or better playmaker, played toward the middle to boost my midfield rating. These few weeks should give me some time to train some inner mids in order to go back to a powerful kind of run and shoot, 2 offensive wingers, 3 inner mids (1 offensive, 1 defensive).

Finally, what you could do if you really want to take advantage of that trainees winger skill, and yet increase his playmaking, it would be to play him in league games at winger, then play him again in your friendly at inner mid. That would cut one of your trainee spot though, but I've heard about people doing that.

Hope this is helping you.

FM

[Qwikshot]

Okay well here are my wingers then...

Carl Leonard
97 000 US$, 17 years, passable form
Has disastrous experience and inadequate leadership abilities

Stamina: inadequate Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: poor Passing: passable
Winger: passable Defending: poor
Scoring: inadequate Set Pieces: weak

This is a true offensive winger.

Rex Braun
58 000 US$, 18 years, passable form
Has disastrous experience and weak leadership abilities [Unpredictable]

Stamina: passable Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: weak Passing: weak
Winger: solid Defending: wretched
Scoring: poor Set Pieces: inadequate

Rex is probably better meant to be a winger towards the mid due to stamina and a marginal PM/Pass skill.

Christian Hansson 1 accumulated booking
51 000 US$, 17 years, solid form
Has disastrous experience and inadequate leadership abilities [Quick]

Stamina: weak Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: inadequate Passing: poor
Winger: inadequate Defending: passable
Scoring: wretched Set Pieces: inadequate

Christian is more of a defensive winger/wingback but I've often thought he could be a decent winger towards mid for friendlies, nothing like a quick winger

Odd Torp
51 000 US$, 17 years, passable form
Has disastrous experience and inadequate leadership abilities [Technical]

Stamina: inadequate Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: weak Passing: inadequate
Winger: passable Defending: poor
Scoring: wretched Set Pieces: wretched

Odd is my other true offensive winger

Per Josefsson 1 accumulated booking
32 000 US$, 17 years, passable form
Has disastrous experience and poor leadership abilities

Stamina: passable Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: weak Passing: poor
Winger: passable Defending: poor
Scoring: poor Set Pieces: weak

Per has lost his spot on the starting roster but there was a time when he was my starting left winger, but he just lacks the secondaries to be good, he'd be an okay friendly winger towards mid once he got the PM to inadequate


Heine Arntzen
29 000 US$, 17 years, solid form
Has disastrous experience and inadequate leadership abilities

Stamina: poor Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: inadequate Passing: inadequate
Winger: inadequate Defending: wretched
Scoring: poor Set Pieces: poor

Last guy on the list, he'd probably be better off training at inner mid (which I am) but he again would be a good winger toward mid

That's my list...I figure Rex Braun, Odd Torp and Carl Leonard would compete for the starter spots...but in reality, the better attack may be Torp and Leonard at offensive winger?

[daedalus]

Purely for wing attack purposes, playing offensively Leonard is the best of the bunch. Depending on level of solid or passable, however, Braun might be better than Torp because winger takes precedents over passing for wing attack. Except for sunny days, where Torp's technical ability will give him a boost. Remember, too, that your wing attacks will be also take the appropriate inner midfielders' passing into account.

Thanks daedalus...now if you could only keep me from flying too high to the sun...

I only build the wings, my man. I only build.

[daedalus]

Originally posted by FrogMan
No, daedy, I don't know, what are you talking about?

Hee hee.

yes there's an excel spreadsheet involved

Ha! I knew it!

[FrogMan]

Qwik, here's my take on your list of wingers...

Carl Leonard: you are right, true offensive winger. His last owner was an idiot not to play him at least at wing...

Rex Braun: really close to Leonard as an offensive winger. I saw his best performance was 2.5 stars. Should be steady at that level maybe go to 3, depending on level of solid winger. Maybe giving him some inner mid training in the friendly to see if you can boost is playmaking a little. Not to play him toward middle, but only so he can help your midfield rating without as well as your wing attack.

Christian Hansson: With some more stamina and a few weeks of playmaking training, I would see him as a defensive inner mid. More often than not, I pull my extra inner mid from the central defender spot, so I like playing the inner mid right above that weak central defender spot with a defensive order. Other than that, yes, he could be a winger toward middle.

Odd Torp: His inadequate passing isn't as good as Leonard's passable, but better than Braun's weak. Since passing is a secondary, I'd rate him below Braun, as an offensive winger.

Per Joseffsson: Insurance policy. Not very good playmaking, but passable stamina. poor passing and defending don't help him. I usually don't train inner mids below inadequate.

Heine Arntzen: you're right, he would make a good offensive inner mid that would improve your central and wing attack on one side, that is when played offensively.

Good luck!

I've attached what my version of TP6's and apoc's training sheet looks like. On it, I'm taking notes of when I plan on selling trainees, which one I plan on keeping for the long term. I'm planning it through season 22

If anybody is interested, let me know. I could send that one sheet, or the whole thing if you'd want to play with it...

FM

[Qwikshot]

Thank you so much!!!

[daedalus]

Originally posted by FrogMan
I'm planning it through season 22

Excel geek.