For You Suffering Cubs Fans...

Cuckoo · 07-22-2003, 09:35 PM

Cubs acquired 3B Aramis Ramirez and CF Kenny Lofton from the Pittsburgh Pirates Tuesday night for SS Jose Hernandez, minor-league pitcher Matt Bruback, and a player to be named later.

Linky

Does this mean they have a chance?

Easy Mac · 07-22-2003, 09:40 PM

Didn't they just aquire Hernandez?

Cuckoo · 07-22-2003, 09:45 PM

Yep. I'm assuming he was included because the Pirates wouldn't have anyone to play third for them this season.

Edit to add: Depending on the player to be named, this is a great deal for the Cubs. Pittsburgh needed to cut payroll, though, and Ramirez is due 6 million next season.

ISiddiqui · 07-22-2003, 09:46 PM

WOW... the Cubs made a good deal! Ramirez is a good pickup!

daedalus · 07-22-2003, 09:47 PM

Wow. I'm shocked. I thought Ramirez was suppose to have been one of the Pirates building blocks for the future. Has he been less than good?

If he's as good as he is suppose to be, that's a real nice trade for the Cubs. Filled two holes in the lineup at the same time.

Cuckoo · 07-22-2003, 09:51 PM

Yeah, big upside for Ramirez. He's only 25 and hit 30 homeruns a couple of years ago. He's hitting around .280 this year with sixty something RBI. The knock on him is his work ethic and whether he can reach his potential.

From the looks of it, though, Bruback is a fourth starter at best, and we all know what Hernandez is. At this point, it looks like a steal for the Cubbies.

henry296 · 07-22-2003, 10:00 PM

As a Pirates fan, oh boy. We may not have a winning season forr another 11 years. Supposedly they have lost 30 million since PNC Park opened because they were not as successful as they had hoped.

Ramirez has plenty of upside but seems to have lost his power stroke this year with only like 10 HRs and lots of strikeouts and little walks.

The amazing thing is that the Pirates sent cash to the Cubs as well.

Todd

Ksyrup · 07-22-2003, 10:17 PM

Maybe the player to be named later is a high draft pick from this year's draft? They can't trade them for like a year after the draft, right?

That's the only way this makes sense to me.

Radii · 07-22-2003, 10:46 PM

holy crap that's great news!!! Cubs are going to the playoffs!

Swaggs · 07-22-2003, 10:47 PM

I'm not crazy about this one. The knocks against Ramirez are that he is going to make $6M next year before becoming a FA, he is terrible defensive player (22 errors at 3B so far), and he is somewhat of a head case (he injured himself charging the mound last season and has been suspended for charging at least twice).

He is a gifted athlete and I think a pretty damn good hitter for his age. I hate to see him go, but I think have some veteran Dominicans like Sosa and Alou will probably be beneficial to him.

I am very bummed that we gave up two serviceable big leaguers for Hernandez and a less than stellar pitching prospect. Hopefully the PTBNL is a very good prospect.

Cards4ever · 07-22-2003, 10:57 PM

Should be a good trade for the Cubs, however, I don't think anyone is going to catch the Astros, not even my Cards.

JeeberD · 07-23-2003, 01:25 AM

The Astros are still gonna win the NL Central...

Edit: Doh! Cards just said that...

Neuqua · 07-23-2003, 01:43 AM

I guess this is a solid deal for the Cubs, but truthfully I'm not all that excited.

Aramis is obviously an upgrade over what we've had at 3B this year but I guess I'm just tired of the Cubs always acquring 2nd tiered talent when given the chance. Cardinals need a 3B and who do they go and trade for? Scott Rolen. Jim Thome is practically begging to play here in Chicago and Hendry won't pay him even at a discounted price. Kenny Lofton is an average OF'er, nothing more. Aramis is a bad fielding 3B, and now that we pick up his $6 mill for next year, this means the Cubs most likely won't be able to make a signing this offseason.

We're still not a championship caliber club, while we may have pushed ourselves atop the Cardinals (especially with Morris' injury,) as said on this board we're still not good enough to catch the Astros.

alterra · 07-23-2003, 02:59 AM

I look for Aramis to do well under Baker. Ramirez has always had talent, and Baker has a good track record for getting the most out of talented players.

Cards4ever · 07-23-2003, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neuqua
Aramis is a bad fielding 3B, and now that we pick up his $6 mill for next year, this means the Cubs most likely won't be able to make a signing this offseason.

I don't know why Cub fans accept this, the Tribune company has just as much money as Steinbrenner, the problem is, Wrigley draws fans no matter the Cub record.

Alan T · 07-23-2003, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cards4ever
I don't know why Cub fans accept this, the Tribune company has just as much money as Steinbrenner, the problem is, Wrigley draws fans no matter the Cub record.

Here is a hockey analogy for you Cards to explain the Cubs problem... I figured you would understand it

Its the Jeremy Jacobs syndrome. You get some of the absolute best fans for your sport in the entire world. You find out that it does not matter if you win or lose, you still get all those crazy fans come to the game. Thus you decide it is not worth it to try to spend the extra money since it does not matter enough to your bottom line.

Cards4ever · 07-23-2003, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alan T
Here is a hockey analogy for you Cards to explain the Cubs problem... I figured you would understand it

Its the Jeremy Jacobs syndrome. You get some of the absolute best fans for your sport in the entire world. You find out that it does not matter if you win or lose, you still get all those crazy fans come to the game. Thus you decide it is not worth it to try to spend the extra money since it does not matter enough to your bottom line.

I'm not so sure Turlos, I think that the core fan group is small, but there are alot of people that go because that is what the Cubs promoted for years, Wrigley field, day baseball, tradition, etc, etc, etc.

Alan T · 07-23-2003, 09:18 AM

I just see the same thing there is all.. Its not a team owned by one passionate owner who wants his team to succeed like a George Steinbrenner or Ted Turner. Its a team owned by a business. It seems when teams are owned by businesses, suddenly the bottom line becomes more important often than a team suceeding.

So while a George Steinbrenner might look at it and think that bringing in player X might end up costing me $2mil more, and only spark added interest to bring in an additional $1mil (thus 1 mil loss), its worth it since he will help the team have a better chance to succeed. A Business would not care as much about the latter and they would care more for the bottom line.

Cards4ever · 07-23-2003, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alan T
I just see the same thing there is all.. Its not a team owned by one passionate owner who wants his team to succeed like a George Steinbrenner or Ted Turner. Its a team owned by a business. It seems when teams are owned by businesses, suddenly the bottom line becomes more important often than a team suceeding.

So while a George Steinbrenner might look at it and think that bringing in player X might end up costing me $2mil more, and only spark added interest to bring in an additional $1mil (thus 1 mil loss), its worth it since he will help the team have a better chance to succeed. A Business would not care as much about the latter and they would care more for the bottom line.

I agree to a extent, but, that is a company that has alot of local interests, so, there is definitely a way to get the attention. Hey, it doesn't make a difference to me if the Cubs continue down the path of 100 years without a WS Champion, but, I don't know why there fans put up with it.

Ksyrup · 07-23-2003, 10:31 AM

I read that the PTBNL may be Bobby Hill, as his name had surfaced in early trade conversations between the Cubs and Pirates.

Cards4ever · 07-23-2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksyrup
I read that the PTBNL may be Bobby Hill, as his name had surfaced in early trade conversations between the Cubs and Pirates.

If it is, then that is the second of their big infield prospects they have let go of, first Belhorn, now Hill, is Choi far behind?!

panerd · 07-23-2003, 10:54 AM

Woo hoo! (For my fantasy team) Pirate fans... does this mean that Matt Stairs will be moved back into the regular lineup? This may have been my most solid midseason pick-up as my final outfielder.

SteelerFan448 · 07-23-2003, 10:56 AM

Whoever that player is, they better be pretty darn good, because looking at that trade right now, it is EXTREMELY lopsided. A lot more Pirates are gonna go before the deadline, they are in an all out fire sale, salary dump.

Cards4ever · 07-23-2003, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronnie Dobbs2
Whoa whoa whoa whoa.

Bellhorn was a prospect????? And Hill has dropped in the eyes of Cubs management like a rock over the past two years. Choi is still the golden child (despite his recent struggles) and won't be moved.

They were pretty high on him at one time.

tucker342 · 07-23-2003, 11:26 AM

Finally the Cubs make a good deal!

WSUCougar · 07-23-2003, 11:35 AM

This one is a bit of a head-scratcher, depending upon that other prospect. I know the Bucs are dropping payroll, but the Pirates' GM saying "We have to stop building just to reach .500" makes little sense with a guy like Hernandez (curious why anyone would want him).

I've never liked Aramis much - he is a potential upgrade at 3rd, but his lackadaisical approach, poor work ethic, and crappy defense won't sit well with Dusty for long. Lofton is a good rent-a-player sub for Patterson.

Ksyrup · 07-23-2003, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WSUCougar
I've never liked Aramis much - he is a potential upgrade at 3rd, but his lackadaisical approach, poor work ethic, and crappy defense won't sit well with Dusty for long. Lofton is a good rent-a-player sub for Patterson.

Ramirez could turn out to be a very good pick up, or he could turn into the second coming of Fernando Tatis. I remember everyone thinking the Cardinals were nuts for trading him to Montreal, and they couldn't have been more right about him. His first breakout year and 1 month of the next year (before he got hurt), he looked like Albert Pujols. Since then, he's been shit.

Maybe the Pirates see the same thing with Ramirez and knew they wouldn't get much for him.

Swaggs · 07-23-2003, 11:53 AM

What happened to Tatis? He had a phenomenol season when he was around 25 (I believe)...with a +.400 OBP and .500 SLG, and I believe an average near .300.

This year he is having trouble hitting over .200. He isn't even 30 yet and seems to be washed up. Any explanations?

Neuqua · 07-23-2003, 12:56 PM

Wasn't Bellhorn a prospect in the Oakland system? I don't ever remember him being too highly regarded, besides his ability to get on base. A lot of people figured he wasn't as good as he was last season and that turned out to be true.

I may or may not be surprised if the PTBNL ends up being Hill. Yeah he was once highly regarded but everytime he's on the ML roster he hasn't produced. He's a bit older for a prospect (around 25 i believe,) so the Cubs might have thought it might be time to get some value for him.

Alan T · 07-23-2003, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Swaggs
What happened to Tatis? He had a phenomenol season when he was around 25 (I believe)...with a +.400 OBP and .500 SLG, and I believe an average near .300.

This year he is having trouble hitting over .200. He isn't even 30 yet and seems to be washed up. Any explanations?

Tatis came up when I lived in DFW, and went to Rangers games pretty much daily.. I actually thought he was pretty much an overrated player then. I think if I remember right, Tatis really only had one decent season, the others were all mediocre or best.. I would put Tatis on the same field as Adrian Beltre.. someone who never really amounted to much of anything.

Radii · 07-23-2003, 01:16 PM

I wouldnt' have a problem with the Cubs getting rid of Hill at this point, and yeah Bellhorn I didn't have a problem with them getting rid of either. Lofton is an excellent short term pickup with Patterson out for the year, certainly worth Hernandez, and Ramirez is hitting pretty well and has the potential to put it all together and be a very good player. But this is the Cubs. .280 and 15 homers or so year in, year out at 3rd base would be MORE than enough to satisfy me. I still think it was an excellent trade for the Cubs even after reading through all the stuff here. It looks to me like a very good offensive upgrade for a playoff run(can we please get Kerry Wood some consistant run support?) and taking the shot at Ramirez seems worth it.

Easy Mac · 07-23-2003, 01:19 PM

Do you really have to put the word "Suffering" before "Cubs fans?" Aren't they the same things?

Cuckoo · 07-23-2003, 01:24 PM

I agree wholeheartedly with Radii, but I think that Ramirez will put up better numbers than what you mentioned. However you look at it, this is a big deal for the Cubs, one of the biggest they've made at the deadline since Rick Sutcliffe. At the very least, it says they're going to make a run.

I think the Cardinals are ailing badly and don't have money to add anyone of significance. I also don't think the Astros are going to run away with the division. They've been hot but have just as many difficiencies as anyone else.

Oh, and Easy, you're absolutely right. It's just how I call to my brethren.

alterra · 07-23-2003, 08:53 PM

Tatis is fat, and keeps getting hurt.

07-22-2003, 09:45 PM	#3
Cuckoo College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Edmond, OK	Yep. I'm assuming he was included because the Pirates wouldn't have anyone to play third for them this season. Edit to add: Depending on the player to be named, this is a great deal for the Cubs. Pittsburgh needed to cut payroll, though, and Ramirez is due 6 million next season. Last edited by Cuckoo : 07-22-2003 at 09:46 PM.

07-22-2003, 09:46 PM	#4
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	WOW... the Cubs made a good deal! Ramirez is a good pickup! __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

07-22-2003, 10:00 PM	#7
henry296 College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	As a Pirates fan, oh boy. We may not have a winning season forr another 11 years. Supposedly they have lost 30 million since PNC Park opened because they were not as successful as they had hoped. Ramirez has plenty of upside but seems to have lost his power stroke this year with only like 10 HRs and lots of strikeouts and little walks. The amazing thing is that the Pirates sent cash to the Cubs as well. Todd __________________ "It's a great day for hockey" - "Badger" Bob Johnson

07-22-2003, 10:17 PM	#8
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	Maybe the player to be named later is a high draft pick from this year's draft? They can't trade them for like a year after the draft, right? That's the only way this makes sense to me. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

07-22-2003, 10:47 PM	#10
Swaggs Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	I'm not crazy about this one. The knocks against Ramirez are that he is going to make $6M next year before becoming a FA, he is terrible defensive player (22 errors at 3B so far), and he is somewhat of a head case (he injured himself charging the mound last season and has been suspended for charging at least twice). He is a gifted athlete and I think a pretty damn good hitter for his age. I hate to see him go, but I think have some veteran Dominicans like Sosa and Alou will probably be beneficial to him. I am very bummed that we gave up two serviceable big leaguers for Hernandez and a less than stellar pitching prospect. Hopefully the PTBNL is a very good prospect. __________________ DOWN WITH HATTRICK!!! The RWBL Are you reading In The Bleachers?

07-22-2003, 09:40 PM	#2
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	Didn't they just aquire Hernandez?

07-22-2003, 09:47 PM	#5
daedalus Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000	Wow. I'm shocked. I thought Ramirez was suppose to have been one of the Pirates building blocks for the future. Has he been less than good? If he's as good as he is suppose to be, that's a real nice trade for the Cubs. Filled two holes in the lineup at the same time.

07-22-2003, 09:51 PM	#6
Cuckoo College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Edmond, OK	Yeah, big upside for Ramirez. He's only 25 and hit 30 homeruns a couple of years ago. He's hitting around .280 this year with sixty something RBI. The knock on him is his work ethic and whether he can reach his potential. From the looks of it, though, Bruback is a fourth starter at best, and we all know what Hernandez is. At this point, it looks like a steal for the Cubbies.

07-22-2003, 10:46 PM	#9
Radii Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	holy crap that's great news!!! Cubs are going to the playoffs!

07-22-2003, 10:57 PM	#11
Cards4ever College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Eagan, MN	Should be a good trade for the Cubs, however, I don't think anyone is going to catch the Astros, not even my Cards. __________________ Cardinal Baseball & Gopher Hockey, what else do you need?

07-23-2003, 01:25 AM	#12
JeeberD General Manager Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Town of Flower Mound	The Astros are still gonna win the NL Central... Edit: Doh! Cards just said that... __________________ UTEP Miners!!! I solemnly swear to never cheer for TO Last edited by JeeberD : 07-23-2003 at 01:26 AM.

07-23-2003, 01:43 AM	#13
Neuqua Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago, Ill	I guess this is a solid deal for the Cubs, but truthfully I'm not all that excited. Aramis is obviously an upgrade over what we've had at 3B this year but I guess I'm just tired of the Cubs always acquring 2nd tiered talent when given the chance. Cardinals need a 3B and who do they go and trade for? Scott Rolen. Jim Thome is practically begging to play here in Chicago and Hendry won't pay him even at a discounted price. Kenny Lofton is an average OF'er, nothing more. Aramis is a bad fielding 3B, and now that we pick up his $6 mill for next year, this means the Cubs most likely won't be able to make a signing this offseason. We're still not a championship caliber club, while we may have pushed ourselves atop the Cardinals (especially with Morris' injury,) as said on this board we're still not good enough to catch the Astros. __________________ Our Deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be?

07-23-2003, 02:59 AM	#14
alterra Mascot Join Date: Jul 2003	I look for Aramis to do well under Baker. Ramirez has always had talent, and Baker has a good track record for getting the most out of talented players.

07-23-2003, 09:18 AM	#18
Alan T Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mass.	I just see the same thing there is all.. Its not a team owned by one passionate owner who wants his team to succeed like a George Steinbrenner or Ted Turner. Its a team owned by a business. It seems when teams are owned by businesses, suddenly the bottom line becomes more important often than a team suceeding. So while a George Steinbrenner might look at it and think that bringing in player X might end up costing me $2mil more, and only spark added interest to bring in an additional $1mil (thus 1 mil loss), its worth it since he will help the team have a better chance to succeed. A Business would not care as much about the latter and they would care more for the bottom line. __________________ Couch to ??k - From the couch to a Marathon in roughly 18 months.

07-23-2003, 10:31 AM	#20
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	I read that the PTBNL may be Bobby Hill, as his name had surfaced in early trade conversations between the Cubs and Pirates. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

07-23-2003, 10:54 AM	#22
panerd Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: St. Louis	Woo hoo! (For my fantasy team) Pirate fans... does this mean that Matt Stairs will be moved back into the regular lineup? This may have been my most solid midseason pick-up as my final outfielder.

07-23-2003, 10:56 AM	#23
SteelerFan448 High School JV Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Steeler Country	Whoever that player is, they better be pretty darn good, because looking at that trade right now, it is EXTREMELY lopsided. A lot more Pirates are gonna go before the deadline, they are in an all out fire sale, salary dump. __________________ "Yoi!"-Myron Cope

07-23-2003, 11:26 AM	#25
tucker342 Pro Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Iowa City, IA	Finally the Cubs make a good deal!

07-23-2003, 11:35 AM	#26
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	This one is a bit of a head-scratcher, depending upon that other prospect. I know the Bucs are dropping payroll, but the Pirates' GM saying "We have to stop building just to reach .500" makes little sense with a guy like Hernandez (curious why anyone would want him). I've never liked Aramis much - he is a potential upgrade at 3rd, but his lackadaisical approach, poor work ethic, and crappy defense won't sit well with Dusty for long. Lofton is a good rent-a-player sub for Patterson. __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

07-23-2003, 11:53 AM	#28
Swaggs Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	What happened to Tatis? He had a phenomenol season when he was around 25 (I believe)...with a +.400 OBP and .500 SLG, and I believe an average near .300. This year he is having trouble hitting over .200. He isn't even 30 yet and seems to be washed up. Any explanations? __________________ DOWN WITH HATTRICK!!! The RWBL Are you reading In The Bleachers?

07-23-2003, 12:56 PM	#29
Neuqua Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago, Ill	Wasn't Bellhorn a prospect in the Oakland system? I don't ever remember him being too highly regarded, besides his ability to get on base. A lot of people figured he wasn't as good as he was last season and that turned out to be true. I may or may not be surprised if the PTBNL ends up being Hill. Yeah he was once highly regarded but everytime he's on the ML roster he hasn't produced. He's a bit older for a prospect (around 25 i believe,) so the Cubs might have thought it might be time to get some value for him. __________________ Our Deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be?

07-23-2003, 01:16 PM	#31
Radii Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	I wouldnt' have a problem with the Cubs getting rid of Hill at this point, and yeah Bellhorn I didn't have a problem with them getting rid of either. Lofton is an excellent short term pickup with Patterson out for the year, certainly worth Hernandez, and Ramirez is hitting pretty well and has the potential to put it all together and be a very good player. But this is the Cubs. .280 and 15 homers or so year in, year out at 3rd base would be MORE than enough to satisfy me. I still think it was an excellent trade for the Cubs even after reading through all the stuff here. It looks to me like a very good offensive upgrade for a playoff run(can we please get Kerry Wood some consistant run support?) and taking the shot at Ramirez seems worth it.

07-23-2003, 01:19 PM	#32
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	Do you really have to put the word "Suffering" before "Cubs fans?" Aren't they the same things?

07-23-2003, 01:24 PM	#33
Cuckoo College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Edmond, OK	I agree wholeheartedly with Radii, but I think that Ramirez will put up better numbers than what you mentioned. However you look at it, this is a big deal for the Cubs, one of the biggest they've made at the deadline since Rick Sutcliffe. At the very least, it says they're going to make a run. I think the Cardinals are ailing badly and don't have money to add anyone of significance. I also don't think the Astros are going to run away with the division. They've been hot but have just as many difficiencies as anyone else. Oh, and Easy, you're absolutely right. It's just how I call to my brethren.

07-23-2003, 08:53 PM	#34
alterra Mascot Join Date: Jul 2003	Tatis is fat, and keeps getting hurt.

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