Are we sure the engine hasn't been tweaked?!?

Qwikshot · 08-18-2003, 11:47 AM

I know there was a discussion on this before and it was stated that no, the engine is still the same...but I'm starting to have my doubts about this...I see a lot of conference talk (WTF Awards)...

Then came my own experience with it...

TEAM ATTITUDE

Team Attitude: Normal

TEAM INFORMATION

Riddle
Ultra Nox
RATING

Riddle
Player rating and Team formation
Midfield: formidable
Right Side Defence: passable
Central Defence: solid
Left Side Defence: solid
Right Side Attack: solid
Central Attack: passable
Left Side Attack: excellent

Ultra Nox
Player rating and Team formation
Midfield: weak
Right Side Defence: excellent
Central Defence: brilliant
Left Side Defence: outstanding
Right Side Attack: solid
Central Attack: passable
Left Side Attack: passable

We battled them to a draw 1-1. It was an away game for us...

Desnudo · 08-18-2003, 11:55 AM

I think the only difference in the game engine is that people's perception of it have changed. Maybe that's enough to alter the reality of the situation, but I doubt it. Look at the WTF awards and then look at the tens of thousands of games that don't have a WTF award and you get a clearer picture.

Doug5984 · 08-18-2003, 01:52 PM

The other team did put up a formidable midfield, but the rest of his team looks very average...a 1-1 draw could easily happen since your (Ultra Nox?) defense is so much better than his attack and D

illinifan999 · 08-18-2003, 02:02 PM

Spring Grove Fighting Eagles
Player rating and Team formation
Midfield: outstanding
Right Side Defence: solid
Central Defence: solid
Left Side Defence: passable
Right Side Attack: passable
Central Attack: excellent
Left Side Attack: excellent

burganation
Player rating and Team formation
Midfield: poor
Right Side Defence: solid
Central Defence: passable
Left Side Defence: passable
Right Side Attack: solid
Central Attack: solid
Left Side Attack: solid

Won 2-1. But it must be said that my guys did miss 2 or 3 scoring chances.

-Panther · 08-18-2003, 04:43 PM

I don't think anything's changed in the engine. I think we're just seeing some of the extremes of experience work. I think experience is having more/greater impact than most realize. more experienced players are matching up and negating ratings more than we see.

Coffee Warlord · 08-18-2003, 04:48 PM

Here's the thing.

For every aberration, there's at least 500 games, if not more, every week, that aren't.

Aesyrqwe · 08-18-2003, 04:54 PM

White Sox Pride
Player rating and Team formation
Midfield: excellent
Right Side Defence: excellent
Central Defence: formidable
Left Side Defence: formidable
Right Side Attack: inadequate
Central Attack: passable
Left Side Attack: solid

Blue Knights
Player rating and Team formation
Midfield: weak
Right Side Defence: excellent
Central Defence: world class
Left Side Defence: magnificient
Right Side Attack: excellent
Central Attack: excellent
Left Side Attack: solid

I (WSP) won 2-0 on this guy. I stacked my sides perfectly.. But both goals came from my right side. I had my right winger pass to my forward to score, and that same winger also scored. So my Inadequate attack defeated his magnificient Defense..

-Aes-

sterlingice · 08-18-2003, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Coffee Warlord
Here's the thing.

For every aberration, there's at least 500 games, if not more, every week, that aren't.

See, this is what I disagree with. Then again, I've ranted on this in chat. I think it's something like 10:1 now versus 50:1 before (numbers pulled out of rectum). There is a good chance of an upset now as opposed to before, where it seemed like

Also, don't confuse an upset with a missed chances upset. When I refer to upset, I mean a game where the team with more favorable ratings gets less or equal chances to a team with significantly worse ratings. If the better team gets 4 chances, misses 3 and loses 2-1 because the worse team connects on its 2 chances- that could be attributed to bad confidence, poor set pieces, or any number of things.

What I'm talking about is worse teams getting less or equal chances as a much better team and that's happening a lot now. There are a lot of instances where teams get out-NSI'd by 15 and still get equal chances. I don't care if it's 60-45 or 80-65, they got beaten badly and the chances should reflect that. An upset like this should happen once of of 50 or 100 times, not once out of 10 like it seems it is now.

SI

TargetPractice6 · 08-18-2003, 07:13 PM

The engine hasn't been changed, aside from was is listen in the HT6.5 changes. The only reason why you see more upsets now than before is because there are simply more teams. There have ALWAYS been threads akin to the WTF Award. In season 16 there was a 'Why did I lose?' thread every week just as there is now. Funny thing is, even several seasons ago people were saying the engine was changed to make midfield less important. No, it's been like that since HT6.

Coffee Warlord · 08-18-2003, 07:33 PM

Wanna know something spiffy?

The dude who started the 'WTF Award' thread got the title from yours truly. We were talking in our series conference, and I came up with the name.

Muah.

NAIWF · 08-18-2003, 08:13 PM

Here's some proof to the STUPID engine theorem.

These are my cup/league games from this season. My numbers listed first.

Cup Rd 1 - NSI 56-27, final score 7-0. 8 chances to 0
Lg Wk 1 - NSI 66-56, final score 3-0. 4 chances to 1
Cup Rd 2 - NSI 52-35, final score 4-0. 9 chances to 0
Lg Wk 2 - NSI 54-32, final score 5-3, 7 chances to 4. 3 SE goals for a bot

Cup Rd 3 - NSI 65-59, final score 1-3, 2 chances to 3
Lg Wk 3 - NSI 64-65 , final score 3-1, 7 chances to 2
Lg Wk 4 - NSI 59-40, final score 5-0, 6 chances to 0

I still don't understand how I gave up 4 chances to a team that I was +22 in NSI on. Or why I only earned 2 chances in a game I was + 6 on, or how on Earth I got 7 shots against a team that was statistically better.

I guess in theory, I should have won the third cup game and lost the 3rd league one, but still there seems to be a lot more inconsistencies this season than in prior ones.

Masked · 08-18-2003, 08:17 PM

The match report does not include all chances.

Also remember NSI is a derived statistic that is not at all important to the engine. Chances are divied up based on possession (or midfield). Success is determine by the offense vs defense ratings. Therefore, a team with a great midfield will get a high NSI, many chances, but if the attack ratings are terrible, the team will never score. It is probable that a team with a very strong attack will beat a team with a (much) better midfield who has a poor attack. Same logic works for defense.

NAIWF · 08-18-2003, 08:25 PM

I know that, but I still see no reason that the second worst team I've played this season got 4 visible chances and 3 goals, while the 3 good teams I've played so far have combined for 6 chances and 4 goals.

Masked · 08-18-2003, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NAIWF
I know that, but I still see no reason that the second worst team I've played this season got 4 visible chances and 3 goals, while the 3 good teams I've played so far have combined for 6 chances and 4 goals.

You said three of those 4 chances were special events. He just got a bit lucky to get more special events than you.

Blade6119 · 08-18-2003, 11:09 PM

LOL!!!!!

Desnudo · 08-18-2003, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NAIWF
Here's some proof to the STUPID engine theorem.

These are my cup/league games from this season. My numbers listed first.

Cup Rd 1 - NSI 56-27, final score 7-0. 8 chances to 0
Lg Wk 1 - NSI 66-56, final score 3-0. 4 chances to 1
Cup Rd 2 - NSI 52-35, final score 4-0. 9 chances to 0
Lg Wk 2 - NSI 54-32, final score 5-3, 7 chances to 4. 3 SE goals for a bot
Cup Rd 3 - NSI 65-59, final score 1-3, 2 chances to 3
Lg Wk 3 - NSI 64-65 , final score 3-1, 7 chances to 2
Lg Wk 4 - NSI 59-40, final score 5-0, 6 chances to 0

I still don't understand how I gave up 4 chances to a team that I was +22 in NSI on. Or why I only earned 2 chances in a game I was + 6 on, or how on Earth I got 7 shots against a team that was statistically better.

I guess in theory, I should have won the third cup game and lost the 3rd league one, but still there seems to be a lot more inconsistencies this season than in prior ones.

Both of those third week games yours and your opponents rates were well within range of each other. And 3-1, 1-3 are not lopsided scores.

There'll always be statistical abberations

in a system like Hattrick.

NAIWF · 08-18-2003, 11:28 PM

I know, but the 2 chances against the "weaker" team and 7 vs the "stronger" one seemed a bit off to me. The league win kept me undefeated, so no complaints

08-18-2003, 02:02 PM	#4
illinifan999 Pro Rookie Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: VA	Spring Grove Fighting Eagles Player rating and Team formation Midfield: outstanding Right Side Defence: solid Central Defence: solid Left Side Defence: passable Right Side Attack: passable Central Attack: excellent Left Side Attack: excellent burganation Player rating and Team formation Midfield: poor Right Side Defence: solid Central Defence: passable Left Side Defence: passable Right Side Attack: solid Central Attack: solid Left Side Attack: solid Won 2-1. But it must be said that my guys did miss 2 or 3 scoring chances. __________________ Chicago Eagles 2 time ZFL champions We're "rebuilding"

08-18-2003, 04:43 PM	#5
-Panther High School Varsity Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Lost	I don't think anything's changed in the engine. I think we're just seeing some of the extremes of experience work. I think experience is having more/greater impact than most realize. more experienced players are matching up and negating ratings more than we see. __________________ Stupidity is an Equal Opportunity Employer.

08-18-2003, 04:54 PM	#7
Aesyrqwe High School JV Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Indiana	White Sox Pride Player rating and Team formation Midfield: excellent Right Side Defence: excellent Central Defence: formidable Left Side Defence: formidable Right Side Attack: inadequate Central Attack: passable Left Side Attack: solid Blue Knights Player rating and Team formation Midfield: weak Right Side Defence: excellent Central Defence: world class Left Side Defence: magnificient Right Side Attack: excellent Central Attack: excellent Left Side Attack: solid I (WSP) won 2-0 on this guy. I stacked my sides perfectly.. But both goals came from my right side. I had my right winger pass to my forward to score, and that same winger also scored. So my Inadequate attack defeated his magnificient Defense.. -Aes- __________________ Go Bears! #8 Grossman #33 Tillman

08-18-2003, 08:17 PM	#12
Masked College Starter Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Bay Area	The match report does not include all chances. Also remember NSI is a derived statistic that is not at all important to the engine. Chances are divied up based on possession (or midfield). Success is determine by the offense vs defense ratings. Therefore, a team with a great midfield will get a high NSI, many chances, but if the attack ratings are terrible, the team will never score. It is probable that a team with a very strong attack will beat a team with a (much) better midfield who has a poor attack. Same logic works for defense. Last edited by Masked : 08-18-2003 at 08:27 PM.

08-18-2003, 11:09 PM	#15
Blade6119 Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona	LOL!!!!! __________________ *Underachievement* The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the lawnmower. *Despair* It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black. *Demotivation* Sometimes the best solution to morale problems is just to fire all of the unhappy people. http://www.despair.com/viewall.html

08-18-2003, 11:55 AM	#2
Desnudo Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Here and There	I think the only difference in the game engine is that people's perception of it have changed. Maybe that's enough to alter the reality of the situation, but I doubt it. Look at the WTF awards and then look at the tens of thousands of games that don't have a WTF award and you get a clearer picture.

08-18-2003, 01:52 PM	#3
Doug5984 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Louisiana	The other team did put up a formidable midfield, but the rest of his team looks very average...a 1-1 draw could easily happen since your (Ultra Nox?) defense is so much better than his attack and D

08-18-2003, 04:48 PM	#6
Coffee Warlord Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Colorado Springs	Here's the thing. For every aberration, there's at least 500 games, if not more, every week, that aren't.

08-18-2003, 07:13 PM	#9
TargetPractice6 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Lexington, KY	The engine hasn't been changed, aside from was is listen in the HT6.5 changes. The only reason why you see more upsets now than before is because there are simply more teams. There have ALWAYS been threads akin to the WTF Award. In season 16 there was a 'Why did I lose?' thread every week just as there is now. Funny thing is, even several seasons ago people were saying the engine was changed to make midfield less important. No, it's been like that since HT6.

08-18-2003, 07:33 PM	#10
Coffee Warlord Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Colorado Springs	Wanna know something spiffy? The dude who started the 'WTF Award' thread got the title from yours truly. We were talking in our series conference, and I came up with the name. Muah.

08-18-2003, 08:13 PM	#11
NAIWF College Prospect Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New York, NY	Here's some proof to the STUPID engine theorem. These are my cup/league games from this season. My numbers listed first. Cup Rd 1 - NSI 56-27, final score 7-0. 8 chances to 0 Lg Wk 1 - NSI 66-56, final score 3-0. 4 chances to 1 Cup Rd 2 - NSI 52-35, final score 4-0. 9 chances to 0 Lg Wk 2 - NSI 54-32, final score 5-3, 7 chances to 4. 3 SE goals for a bot Cup Rd 3 - NSI 65-59, final score 1-3, 2 chances to 3 Lg Wk 3 - NSI 64-65 , final score 3-1, 7 chances to 2 Lg Wk 4 - NSI 59-40, final score 5-0, 6 chances to 0 I still don't understand how I gave up 4 chances to a team that I was +22 in NSI on. Or why I only earned 2 chances in a game I was + 6 on, or how on Earth I got 7 shots against a team that was statistically better. I guess in theory, I should have won the third cup game and lost the 3rd league one, but still there seems to be a lot more inconsistencies this season than in prior ones.

08-18-2003, 08:25 PM	#13
NAIWF College Prospect Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New York, NY	I know that, but I still see no reason that the second worst team I've played this season got 4 visible chances and 3 goals, while the 3 good teams I've played so far have combined for 6 chances and 4 goals.

08-18-2003, 11:28 PM	#17
NAIWF College Prospect Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New York, NY	I know, but the 2 chances against the "weaker" team and 7 vs the "stronger" one seemed a bit off to me. The league win kept me undefeated, so no complaints

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