Sounds like PC is still running amok...

[Ben E Lou]

So, were they supposed to do a musical "Visions of World War II" and just pretend that there was no such thing as Nazi Germany????

Link

DALLAS, Texas (Reuters) -- The Paris, Texas, school district apologized Tuesday for a performance by one of its marching bands which played an Adolf Hitler anthem and waved a Nazi flag during a football halftime show.

Band director Charles Grissom said the song and flag were part of a musical performance called "Visions of World War Two". It was performed at a Dallas high school Friday, which was also Rosh Hashana, the start of the Jewish new year and one of the holiest days on the Jewish calendar.

"The performance is an attempt to factually portray the history of World War Two, triumph of good over evil, and to honor our veterans for their sacrifices in ensuring freedom throughout the world," Grissom said in a statement. He added later that he made a major mistake in judgment.

The performance was greeted by heavy boos at the Hillcrest High School in Dallas, and several objects were hurled at the band.

The show included the flags of other nations fighting in World War Two, such as France, Britain, the United States and Japan. The flags were waved twice as a musical selection from each country was played.

The Paris school district issued an apology to Hillcrest High and to the Dallas school district, said Paul Trull, the superintendent of Paris schools.

"We regret there was a misunderstanding. We strive to be sensitive to the feelings of others and are always willing to amend our actions when we fall short," Trull said.

The band will still perform the musical composition but it will only have the United States flag on display, he said.

Paris, Texas is located about 100 miles (160 km) northeast of Dallas.

[Subby]

Your post is anti-pc run amok.

To do something like that at all, but particularly at the start of Rosh Hashana, exhibits incredibly bad judgement.

Flags are more than just a piece of cloth with a symbol affixed...

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by Subby
Flags are more than just a piece of cloth with a symbol affixed...

Tell that to flag burners. Not that I'm against one's right to burn a flag.

Or am I?

I'm like Ziggy Stardust, only politically.

[markprior22]

Things like this need to be taken in proper context...if it was a Nazi pep rally, that would be different. But a show based on WWII has to include Germany.

[scooper]

Fine, so play the beer barrell polka.

[ice4277]

Include Germany, but waving a Nazi flag on the Jewish New Year is pretty stupid. I hate most of the PC crap as much as the next guy (sorry, person for you PC'ers out there ) but I think this crosses the line.

[KWhit]

And it was at a football halftime show. I don't know that that's the time to trot out a history lesson.

There's a frame of mind one has to be in when confronted with disturbing situations. You know when you walk into the movie Schindler's List that you should be prepared for this. At a football game? Not so much.

I'm sure that's one reason it got that kind of response.

[Bee]

It was at a halftime football game where they decided to do a "WWII show". That's a little different than this being done "at a show based on WWII". When you go to a football game, you don't expect a halftime show involving a Nazi flag and an Adolf Hitler anthem especially on Rosh Hashana.

Edit: crap, by the time I posted this several others already said the same thing.

[Ksyrup]

I guess I'd have to see it to understand it. I wonder what kind of an announcement, if any, was made beforehand, explaining what the show was. For every show I was ever involved in, someone would explain what it was about before we actually performed it - even if it was rather basic. I can't say we ever undertook a performance designed to "factually portray" an event like WWII. I think we did Gustav Holst's The Planets, which probably went over the heads of 99% of the audience, but then again, no one got PO'd by the Martian flag, either.

Here, it doesn't sound like the performance mirrored the intent of the music, which was to portray the "triumph of good over evil." They just waved a bunch of multi-national flags, like they were at a UN meeting or something. Without some sort of explanation, or better choreography to graphically illustrate who won, it probably looked pretty insensitive from the stands.

That's my over-analysis of the situation.

[Ben E Lou]

Heh....another example of the various networks' somewhat-slanted coverage. Here's the version on Fox News' web site. They choose to use the AP story, which includes a significant detail that Reuters chose not to mention. (I underlined it).

DALLAS — A high school band director has apologized for a halftime performance that included "Deutschland Uber Alles," the anthem closely associated with Adolf Hitler, and a student running across the field with a Nazi flag.

Charles Grissom, Paris High School's band director, said his intention was to have a historical performance featuring the flags and music of the nations that fought during World War II.

The show, titled "Visions of World War II," nearly caused a melee at Friday night's football game at Dallas' Hillcrest High School.

"We were booed," Grissom said Monday. "We had things thrown at us. We were cursed."

Paris' assistant coaches were even targeted as they made their way through the bleachers to a press box after halftime.

"The assistant coaches ... got blasted, cursed," said Brent Southworth, Paris' head football coach.

Grissom said he never intended to offend anyone, and he apologized repeatedly.

"We had an error in judgment," Grissom told The Dallas Morning News in an interview published Tuesday. "Our intent was never to cause any harm."

The show was performed in Paris, about 100 miles northeast of Dallas, a week earlier after the homecoming game against Athens.

The band, which began working on the show in August, planned to perform it at the University Interscholastic League contest Oct. 15.

The show also includes the flags and music of France, Britain, Japan and the United States. The flags were raised in intervals that corresponded with the music of the nations. An announcement over loudspeakers before the performance explained the school was trying to do a "historical, accurate depiction of the event."

Mark Briskman, regional director for the Anti-Defamation League, said his organization received many calls and e-mails expressing shock "that in 2003, this type of insensitivity would occur."

"This can serve as an educational tool that there are certain tools and certain symbols that still carry ... an amount of hurt," Briskman said. "It was a mistake, and they've apologized for it, and we basically accept their apology."

FWIW, unless there's a high school band director hanging around this message board, I'm guessing that I've seen more high school band shows than virtually anyone around here. (4 years of high school plus 15 years of youth ministry times 10-13 games per year..geez that's a lot...) A historically-themed band performance isn't that unusual, although I'll freely admit that I've never seen a WW2-based show.

That flag didn't kill 6 million Jews. Hitler and his henchmen did. The Nazi flag is not inherently evil when used simply to portray a part of history. It is one thing to wave a Nazi flag in support of what the flag represented. It is quite another to wave it as part of a historical show.

[Buzzbee]

Hmmm....based on the title of the thread, I thought SkyDog's laptop was out looking for his paper.

In regard to the use of the Nazi flag, no it did't kill 6 million jews, but the country, and movement it symbolizes did. So I can see where people would be offended. The Georgia state flag didn't kill anyone, but it is still an issue to many.

In my opinion, the use of the flag is appropriate for the theme of the show. However, because of the attrocities the flag represents it should have been held in a lower position, or somehow subdued to show respect for those killed and disdain for what it stands for.

I agree with SkyDog that people today are just looking for things to be offended by, but realize that certain things that don't offend me, may offend others.

{Edit: I said the use of the flag was appropriate. I should correct that. It MAY have been appropriate. Was their a flag representing the Allies to counter the Nazi flag? Or, was the Nazi flag "substituted" for the German flag of the time? Or WAS that the German flag of the time? I'm not too astute on historical flags. Or current ones for that matter.}

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by SkyDog
That flag didn't kill 6 million Jews. Hitler and his henchmen did. The Nazi flag is not inherently evil when used simply to portray a part of history. It is one thing to wave a Nazi flag in support of what the flag represented. It is quite another to wave it as part of a historical show.

Or to take it a step further:

That flag didn't enslave 6 million blacks. Plantation owners and thier henchmen did. The Rebel flag is not inherently evil when used simply to portray a part of history. It is one thing to wave a Rebel flag in support of what the flag represented. It is quite another to wave it as part of a historical show.


If I remember correctly, you are against all the Georgia flag non-sense, so I'm not trying to call you out on that. Just trying to shed a different light.

[Critch]

Deutschland Uber Alles is still the German national anthem, so calling it an Adolf Hitler anthem is pushing it. All that's changed since the war is that a couple of the verses have been dropped, so unless the band were actually singing the banned verses all they were doing was playing the German National Anthem.

Waving the flag was going a bit too far for me, though.

[Butter]

Hey, you all may think this is PC bullshit, but apparently the vast majority of the crowd at the game doesn't agree. Nobody stopped the guy from waving the flag, but neither did anyone stop the crowd from responding. So what's the problem here?

Marginally related thought: Am I the only one who still finds it amusing that the Ole Miss mascot is an old Southern Rebel, who leads out a racially mixed football team? That made me laugh out loud when I saw that a couple weeks ago.

[Easy Mac]

How is playing music and showing a flag an "accurate" depiction of WWII? Did the British, French, and American flags beat up the German and Japanese flags? If they wanted to do an "accurate" depiction, they could have tried harder than running a Nazi flag across the field. And wouldn't it have been better to have maybe a USSR flag in there?

I guess its ok for a school to play Civil War anthems and run around with Confederate flags on Martin Luther King Jr. birthday?

[Ben E Lou]

Butter:

The crowd reaction isn't an appropriate gauge. It was a road crowd. I've seen several road crowds boo the band for FAR less than this one...

Buzz:

That flag didn't enslave 6 million blacks. Plantation owners and thier henchmen did. The Rebel flag is not inherently evil when used simply to portray a part of history. It is one thing to wave a Rebel flag in support of what the flag represented. It is quite another to wave it as part of a historical show.

Well, that paragraph describes pretty much exactly my feelings about the rebel flag as well.

[Butter]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Butter:

The crowd reaction isn't an appropriate gauge. It was a road crowd. I've seen several road crowds boo the band for FAR less than this one...

So what? Are we arguing whether this is a news-worthy event? Or arguing whether or not the crowd was booing the use of the Nazi flag? Or whether the Nazi flag's use was inappropriate on a Jewish holiday? I fail to see why you felt the need to post this as reflective of a PC society-run-amok when there is very little going on here. If I ran around with a Nazi T-shirt on, I wonder how long it would take before I got my ass kicked.

A far more interesting topic here would be how many of you who view this as PC-run-amok are against flag-burning? Why?

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
How is playing music and showing a flag an "accurate" depiction of WWII? Did the British, French, and American flags beat up the German and Japanese flags? If they wanted to do an "accurate" depiction, they could have tried harder than running a Nazi flag across the field. And wouldn't it have been better to have maybe a USSR flag in there?

Or, did the Japanese flag-bearer run up from behind the US flag-bearer and smack her in the head?

Again, in order to "accurately depict" an event, you have to do more than wave a flag. There has to be some sort of symbolism represented by the movement or positioning of the flags, I believe. Simply running a bunch of national flags out in a "Chorus Line"-type move is hardly depicting the rise and fall of the Nazis during WWII.

I just feel sorry for the girl who drew the short straw and had to carry that flag.

[Ben E Lou]

Hey, you all may think this is PC bullshit, but apparently the vast majority of the crowd at the game doesn't agree.

Butter, I was simply responding to the above. You brought up the crowd response, not me.

[Esquared1]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Or to take it a step further:

That flag didn't enslave 6 million blacks. Plantation owners and thier henchmen did. The Rebel flag is not inherently evil when used simply to portray a part of history. It is one thing to wave a Rebel flag in support of what the flag represented. It is quite another to wave it as part of a historical show.


If I remember correctly, you are against all the Georgia flag non-sense, so I'm not trying to call you out on that. Just trying to shed a different light.

Good. Since these flags are nothing more than pieces of cloth that caused no harm, then I can freely crap on the American flag and burn it anytime I want. I'm glad I can now freely do this when I'm not happy with our government's direction.

That is my different light to your different light.

[Butter]

Actually, you brought this whole thing up, SkyDog, but whatever.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Esquared1
Good. Since these flags are nothing more than pieces of cloth in that caused no harm, then I can freely crap on the American flag and burn it anytime I want. I'm glad I can now freely do this when I'm not happy with our government's direction.

That is my different light to your different light.

And the first admendment gives you every right.

[EagleFan]

It was a freaking band performance. People get upset over the dumbest things anymore. It wasn't like they came out and did that song only and only carried the nazi flag, that would be a lot more disturbing. There was no endorsement of what the nazis did. As for the timing of it, most likely purely coincidental.

People need to stop twisting every little thing into something major.

As far as 'acurately depicting' an event? It's a freaking band performance, not a theatrical review. Get over it.

[Easy Mac]

well, when "accurate depiction" is the main line underlined in order to justify presenting the flag, it does matter.

So theoretically, I can do a band performance and carry around an American flag and a flag with a Taliban symbol on it. No one can complain, correct?

[EagleFan]

Sure thing, if that's what you want to do.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
well, when "accurate depiction" is the main line underlined in order to justify presenting the flag, it does matter.

So theoretically, I can do a band performance and carry around an American flag and a flag with a Taliban symbol on it. No one can complain, correct?

Why in the heck couldn't you? Unless your calling for the glory of the Taliban, then maybe you'd have a problem.

[Easy Mac]

And therfore no one can complain, beause that is the main argument of the "PC run-amok," since no one was arrested, suspended or expelled.

Of course, by the definition used here, Philadelphia fans booing McNabb means they are being too PC.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
And therfore no one can complain, beause that is the main argument of the "PC run-amok," since no one was arrested, suspended or expelled.

Of course, by the definition used here, Philadelphia fans booing McNabb means they are being too PC.

?

This is an example of "PC run amok" because this guy was forced to appologize in hopes of saving his job. Why? Because he was silly enough to think people are intellegent enough to recognize that having a Nazi flag in the midst of a recreaction of WW2 was not showing support to the Nazi's.

[Easy Mac]

how is it a recreation of WW2?

Did they have guns and tanks on the field?

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
how is it a recreation of WW2?

Did they have guns and tanks on the field?

Musical recreations like this happens all the time. Ever been to the symphony? You recreate a historical even in music. That is all this was.

[Ksyrup]

I was in band in high school. I was in these halftime shows. Do you know how many people pay attention to what the band is doing (or the announcer says) as the 1st half ends and people are running to see their friends, go to the bathroom, and grab a drink? Pretty much no one except the band kids' parents, who likely already know what's going on. All these people saw was a bunch of nation's flags on the field, including the Nazi flag.

Bottom line: I think this was a perfectly acceptable performance to use at a band competition, but a really, really bad choice for a football game's halftime show. We had separate performances we did for games, and others that we used in competitions. Given the complexities involved in the scenario they were trying to depict, this was a bad choice. I think this is more that issue than a PC issue. This was not the type of crowd one should expect to understand such a performance.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Musical recreations like this happens all the time. Ever been to the symphony? You recreate a historical even in music. That is all this was.

Ever seen a symphonic recretation of an historical event at a football game?

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Ever seen a symphonic recretation of an historical event at a football game?

I've heard bands attempt many crazy things. Rockdale hosts a band competion every year. You see all sorts of things.

[GrantDawg]

Dola: Look at about all of Sousa's works. Many of them are historical recreations or rememberances.

[KWhit]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Bottom line: I think this was a perfectly acceptable performance to use at a band competition, but a really, really bad choice for a football game's halftime show. We had separate performances we did for games, and others that we used in competitions. Given the complexities involved in the scenario they were trying to depict, this was a bad choice. I think this is more that issue than a PC issue. This was not the type of crowd one should expect to understand such a performance.

I agree. It was probably an interesting performance. Better than the typical mindless Sousa marches that are played 10000 times. But at a football halftime show? I don't think that's the right audience for it.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
I've heard bands attempt many crazy things. Rockdale hosts a band competion every year. You see all sorts of things.

A band competition - at least the kind I am familiar with - are for band audiences. Kind of like those cheerleader competitions they show at 3am on ESPN2. Not exactly the same as a football crowd, which is not there to see the bands perform.

Now, there are some band competitions that are designed for football-type crowds. FAMU here in Tally has a world-famous band. But they aren't exactly recreating WWII with their performances. What was that movie - Drumline? Those are not the same type of competitions.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Dola: Look at about all of Sousa's works. Many of them are historical recreations or rememberances.

Yes, but they also are simply marches in and of themselves, and performed that way. They aren't necessarily strung together with other pieces to create some sort of flowing, depiction of an event, per se. When they are used in band performances (and we used them all of the time), they were for the type of piece they were (a march) rather than for what that particular march might be representing. A march is ordinarily added to a band performance to provide a contrast to the other music.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
A band competition - at least the kind I am familiar with - are for band audiences. Kind of like those cheerleader competitions they show at 3am on ESPN2. Not exactly the same as a football crowd, which is not there to see the bands perform.

Now, there are some band competitions that are designed for football-type crowds. FAMU here in Tally has a world-famous band. But they aren't exactly recreating WWII with their performances. What was that movie - Drumline? Those are not the same type of competitions.

According to the article, this march was created for a band competition. They decided to do it as a live practice at a football game. Now I agree that they should have done it at home (and maybe this was to involved for a half-time show) but why is it not offensive at a band competition and it is offensive at a football halftime? I still think this is people blowing things out of proportion.

[Ksyrup]

And while we're on the subject of bands, this gives me an excuse to use my favorite marching band phrase of all time:

Company Front. Also known as the Frumpity Cunt among guys in band.

Yes, we were geeks.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Yes, but they also are simply marches in and of themselves, and performed that way. They aren't necessarily strung together with other pieces to create some sort of flowing, depiction of an event, per se. When they are used in band performances (and we used them all of the time), they were for the type of piece they were (a march) rather than for what that particular march might be representing. A march is ordinarily added to a band performance to provide a contrast to the other music.

But it is not uncommon to add theatrical emphasis to those marches, whether it be with the dance line, gun corp, or the majorettes (or even huge scene boards. Rockdale's band last year had an entire stage set up). Using flags of different nations again is not uncommon. All this was was using the flags of the nations of WW2. Not that big a leap.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
According to the article, this march was created for a band competition. They decided to do it as a live practice at a football game. Now I agree that they should have done it at home (and maybe this was to involved for a half-time show) but why is it not offensive at a band competition and it is offensive at a football halftime? I still think this is people blowing things out of proportion.

I'm not suggesting it was offensive at all. I'm suggesting that the audience to which it was presented was not the kind which could understand the performance for what it was. Most people who attend a band competition are likely to (a) either understand the performance in context, or (b) if they don't understand it, will likely take the time to understand it. People at a high school football game don't give a crap, until something that appears offensive crosses their sight line. And that was reasonably foreseeable, in my estimation, given the subject matter. that's all I'm saying with any of this.

Having said all of that, I clearly sympathize with the fact that they were simply looking to do a live practice to get ready for the competition. You practice on an empty field all you want, but nothing's quite like the real thing in front of hundreds (or thousands) of people.

[cuervo72]

Could they not have used the current German flag? Not as historically correct, but a little more sensitive perhaps?

[GrantDawg]

And I agree this was pretty amibitous for an away game. I don't know if anyone could have forseen this becoming a national news story or even people being dim-witted enough at the game to think they were somehow glorifing nazi's. Notice this line from an article on this:

Mark Briskman, regional director for the Anti-Defamation League, said his organization received many calls and e-mails expressing shock "that in 2003, this type of insensitivity would occur."

"This can serve as an educational tool that there are certain tools and certain symbols that still carry ... an amount of hurt," Briskman said. "It was a mistake, and they've apologized for it, and we basically accept their apology."

By this guys statement, if you did a movie on WW2 and you showed a Nazi flag, then your being "insentive." That my friends is PC running amok.

[Ksyrup]

I don't disagree with you on that point.

[Butter]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
By this guys statement, if you did a movie on WW2 and you showed a Nazi flag, then your being "insentive." That my friends is PC running amok.

"The Believer" and "American History X" are both good examples of films that use the Nazi symbol. I believe that the Indiana Jones series also showcases Nazis and their symbol. I don't believe that anyone called for the removal of the symbol from these films. But they did find it offensive when the symbol was used in a forum where it wouldn't normally be expected. I fail to see how this is PC running amok. Maybe you think it is, because anyone who is ever offended now is considered a PC nazi (ironic, yes?), but I don't think it is.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
"The Believer" and "American History X" are both good examples of films that use the Nazi symbol. I believe that the Indiana Jones series also showcases Nazis and their symbol. I don't believe that anyone called for the removal of the symbol from these films. But they did find it offensive when the symbol was used in a forum where it wouldn't normally be expected. I fail to see how this is PC running amok. Maybe you think it is, because anyone who is ever offended now is considered a PC nazi (ironic, yes?), but I don't think it is.

Butter, there were protest against "American History X." There were protest against the recent "Hitler" mini-series. I'm not someone who thinks everytime someone is offended they are being too "PC." I do think this is made into a big deal because of people being too PC.

[clintl]

I don't think this is PC running amok. People are essentially trained to pick up the context of such symbols in movies, plays, etc. Nobody is going to be upset by the use of Nazi symbols in the Indiana Jones movies because the Nazis were the bad guys (unless, of course, you are a Nazi and believe you are the one being defamed).

I don't think that's true with a halftime musical performance at a football game. Without having seen the actual performance, it's impossible to tell how the average person would have interpreted it. But I suspect that this was an audience not prepared to pick up the subtleties necessary to appreciate the intent behind the performance.

[MJ4H]

Originally posted by SkyDog

FWIW, unless there's a high school band director hanging around this message board, I'm guessing that I've seen more high school band shows than virtually anyone around here.

Ahem.

(I'm a high school band director)

Oh, and I see these types of shows all the time. The most recent I've seen was a band in Missouri do a civil war themed show. I don't remember any PC issues with that one. My guess is the flags were probably an "audience aid"-- to help the audience keep up with the themes of the show. It was probably possible to understand the show without the flags, but the flags merely signified important events that were also being portrayed musically (which the average football fan would either need help interpreting or would need to be concentrating extra-hard )

Anyway, I can certainly see the band director's view on this, as he was trying to do an artistic show and help the audience understand it. Tons of high school bands across the country are good enough to do actual artistic shows instead of just play Louie Louie and Land of 1000 Dances at halftime and call it good. I don't have a problem with this show concept, nor with the waving of the flag. I can see it stepping on some toes, but I think it seems a little narrow to get upset about it. I mean, they lose in the end, right?

I agree that this is on the over-PC end of the spectrum and understand that others may disagree.

[McSweeny]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Hmmm....based on the title of the thread, I thought SkyDog's laptop was out looking for his paper.

that one had me laughing fairly hard just now

[Mustang]

Originally posted by cuervo72
Could they not have used the current German flag? Not as historically correct, but a little more sensitive perhaps?

I'm against changing historical facts to make it more sensitive. Plus, the average person probably would start associating the current German flag as being used by the Nazi regime in WWII...

Although.. I wonder if they used the current U.S flag for that time period?...