Fun of Football Games

[fanuvsports]

Long time reader first time poster!

Hello all!!!!

I love the game of Football! I love to play the pc games and the xbox games.

Let me ask this question? Is our expectations of Football games/sim games to high?

Although I love to play the latest FOF game there is just something missing that just does not give me the full fun factor thing. I have owned all of them and I think this is the best but it is just misssing something that I can't put my finger on. Same thing with Madden on PC. It looks great plays pretty good but what is missing that would make it funner to play. The game that really gives me a good feel is ESPN on the xbox yet it becomes easier to play everytime I start a new game.

Perhaps this Football game that .400 Studios will have that what Im personally looking for.

Any others want to share some thoughts?

[albionmoonlight]

Welcome to the club.

I am happy with the football sims out there, but my expectations are not too high. I play console games to relax. There is a part of me that likes to mash buttons, and these games appeal to this part. I have NCAA 2003 and NFL2K1 (Dreamcast). I don't really feel the need to upgrade because these games give me enough of what I want.

FOF2 was/is my favorite game ever. However, as I am learning more about FOF4 (from playing Groupthink 3), I am getting to like it a lot, too.

The trick, as you stated, is all about expectations. I suppose that I am pretty content with games because I know that nothing will be perfect, so I just accept the games that come along on their own terms.

(Except FOF2k1--I could never get used to that interface).

[Bonegavel]

This comes up all the time, but I'll give you my take.

What is missing is the lack of verisimilitude. In real football you get to know the players. You see them on sports center, you hear them being talked about all the time, hell, some of us even wear jerseys with their names on them (and some probably have bed sheets with their team logo).

That is all missing in the text sims. You click on a player during the draft to scout. You see numbers. That is it. You never see a lick of film (for obvious reasons) or see him practice or play. You simply see his stat-bars.

To me, one of the enjoyable things about the NFL is talking with friends about the game, or things like coming on this board and defending McNabb or discussing why Keyshawn is a loud-mouth average receiver.

Until they can give you this feeling, I don't think PC games (text or graphical) will ever fill that void you feel.

[fanuvsports]

Bonegavel I think your on to something there. I have not thought it of like that before.

I Could be me as well. Im 33 maybe Im just getting too old for this sort of thing.

[Eaglesfan27]

I doubt 33 is too old to enjoy football or other sports sims. I'm not quite there yet, but I bet you many of the people on this board are older than 33.

[vex]

What would help this is if there were player images like in Hattrick(if you've ever played).

[Samdari]

Originally posted by Eaglesfan27
I doubt 33 is too old to enjoy football or other sports sims. I'm not quite there yet, but I bet you many of the people on this board are older than 33.

Check.

[FBPro]

Originally posted by vexroid
What would help this is if there were player images like in Hattrick(if you've ever played).

TPF will have the option to use player images whether real or fictional.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I don't think it's an age issue. I'm 33+ but find that I enjoy sims more than I used to while enjoying "the real thing" less & less.

[Philliesfan980]

Yeah, I hate to say it, but its getting harder and harder to sit through games on TV. Text sims let us run the show, and that in turn is better than watching the real thing for many of us.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
I don't think it's an age issue. I'm 33+ but find that I enjoy sims more than I used to while enjoying "the real thing" less & less.

That's me on both points. I just am not enjoying real sports that much any more. I'm not sure why. I have some theories but they all have huge holes in them and none of them really feel right. At least it's not just me.

[FBPro]

Odd, it is getting easier and easier for me to enjoy football while most of the others I have stopped watching.

[EagleFan]

I think what we love about text sims, the ability to sim through things quickly, is also what creates that something missing feel. In football you have 7 full days between games to give you a chance to see and hear things about players, plus the time during the off-season. Nothing in a text sim can truly simulate that. Yeah, it can bring up off the field news and such but still simming through a season or two in a session won;t allow you the actual time to really get to know the 'players' in your universe.

With that said. It could still be possible to capture your imagination without needing the off the field real life distractions. The FBPro and BBPro games were able to draw me into the league's universe without that. That was the ability to see the players actually perform on the field. Oddly enough, it almost seems like the dated graphics evoke your imagination better than the flashy Madden graphics which is why Madden cannot duplicate that feeling.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by EagleFan
I think what we love about text sims, the ability to sim through things quickly, is also what creates that something missing feel. In football you have 7 full days between games to give you a chance to see and hear things about players, plus the time during the off-season. Nothing in a text sim can truly simulate that. Yeah, it can bring up off the field news and such but still simming through a season or two in a session won;t allow you the actual time to really get to know the 'players' in your universe.

I've thought for a while that this is exactly why Championship Manager is so exceptional to me. Due to the pacing of the game I get to know my players more than in any other game I play. I would think that the smaller roster sports would be at an advantage here and indeed the two college basketball games are second in this way. Does anybody really KNOW every player on their tcy teams? I don't and it makes me sad.

Still, soccer has just as many players as football and I can accomplish this easily. It's the pacing and they indeed do what you said above, keep every day busy whether or not you have a match scheduled. I think that you are definitely on to something there.

Something for the other developers to think about?

[MizzouRah]

I remember years ago playing the heck out of Tecmo Super Bowl, FPS Football, and the Madden series. No sliders, no drafts, no contracts, etc... Today I'm much older (32), and have gone the way of text sims like FOF4, OOTP, and TDCB, because graphical sims have gone away from being fun to me.

I've said this like a broken record but I hate sliders. Games years ago played just fine out of the box (of course the internet wasn't anything like it is today to discuss the weaknesses of games). That has really taken the fun out of it for me. It's much easier to load up FOF4 and get realistic stats without the fuss.

Fast foward to NCAA 2003, 2004, and ESPN football (NHL 2004 has been quite fun thus far out of the box), companies are starting to peak my interest again with sports games. They are finding a way to merge a graphical game into a sim.

ESPN football has really made me see what needs to be in a football game (or any sports game) - PRESENTATION, and it's only going to get better, I hope. That game immurses me like Tecmo SB did years ago. In other words, no our expectations aren't too high, at least it seems as if companies are finally starting to listen to us more hardcore sports fans, and that's a good thing.


Oh, btw.... welcome to FOFC!


Todd

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by FBPro
Odd, it is getting easier and easier for me to enjoy football while most of the others I have stopped watching.

Ditto.

[mckerney]

I don't see myself buying a product other than those released by Jim Gindin if it doesn't have multiplayer.

[vex]

Originally posted by mckerney
I don't see myself buying a product other than those released by Jim Gindin if it doesn't have multiplayer.

I can definitely agree with that.

[3ric]

Originally posted by Axxon
I've thought for a while that this is exactly why Championship Manager is so exceptional to me. Due to the pacing of the game I get to know my players more than in any other game I play. I would think that the smaller roster sports would be at an advantage here and indeed the two college basketball games are second in this way. Does anybody really KNOW every player on their tcy teams? I don't and it makes me sad.

Still, soccer has just as many players as football and I can accomplish this easily. It's the pacing and they indeed do what you said above, keep every day busy whether or not you have a match scheduled. I think that you are definitely on to something there.

Something for the other developers to think about?

Well said. I totally agree. You can sit down for dinner or whatever, and find yourself thinking about CM, and which player to use in the playmaker role or why this player won't sign a new contract. I have been to dull meetings where I've occupied myself with writing down new lineups to try. We need an NFL football sim to be this engrossing. (Not sure my wife would agree, though)

[Icy]

I totally agree with you guys, i'm currently frustrated about sport sims. Probably because my hope on the games is too big as i have played lots of them and haven't found any of them to be "the game" that CM has been for me untill this year.
Here is my text sims games experience and games review, i'm sure lots of you feel the same:

My first text sim was CM Italia about 10 years ago, it was so simple but i loved the idea about managing my team, develop a young guy to be a top star etc.
I have been playing the CM series since then, every new version until the last one that i don't like a lot, it's a great base for future CMs but the first version has been really bad, i tried to play it but every month a new patch came making me start a new dynasty so i never could get involved enought with my team as i have been other years. I must admit that Internet helped that feeling about unfinished game, as Marc V said, proably we wouldn't have notice as early some of the bugs if not reading about them at sigames board, but once i know for example that the player rattings will go down in a few year because a but, i can't play it the same, how could i get involved on a dynasty if in know that after 10 years or less the league will be full of crap players?

This was what made me this year look for new text sims, i tried other soccer sims but not any of them is near as deep as CM (mybe SAAP is but i have tried to get into it sometimes without success). Then this year i rediscovered other old text sims that i knew but based on sports that i didn't know as well as soccer like football, hockey or basketball (i'm also tempted to try OOTP but i don't know a lot about baseball). To play that games (TCY and EHM) i had to learn the sport rules, even buyed some books as i knew the basics but not the deep tactics or transfer rules. This has helped me a lot to underestand that sports and i love them to watch them on TV now, for example now i even preffer a good football match than a soccer one as i love the tactics now that i underestand them.

On my test sims frutration, this year i have played lots of games or demos for lots of sports like:

Soccer:

-CM4: The game that could have been the best sim ever but because the hurry at SI to finish it was full of bugs that made the long career imposible. My big deception that made me look for other sims. They removed tons of things that i loved in the previous years, it's slower and requires a big machine to run it and my bigger deception, the 2d view. I had lots of hope on the 2D view, to be able to finally watch my players performing and following my tactics but the AI is really bad, they just kick longs ball and then the strikers run to get the ball, if the striker is fast he will pass the defense as they just look at him and will score, else the defense will head the ball to the other side, then my defense head it again and so on. Where is the short pass? the beatifull football that we enjoy in Spain? why is the defense as dumb? why my middlefielders only know how to head a ball but not how to pass it? Why the only skill that mathers is the pace?
I hope that for the new version that could have been improved but i'm not so excited for what i have read about the improvements on this (not read better said, they never said this has been improved). Anyway Marc and his team will have my money again, i really loved this game and i will keep buying it each new year with the hope that it will be as good as i dream.

-TCM: I like that it's more deep about finances than CM, but the bic anounced improvement about other games that was the FIFA 3d engine is really bad, not for the graphics already proved but for the inexistent AI and that no mather what you set on the tactics, they will ignore them and just perform as the arcade game that FIFA is. It also has a bugged text mode that is really bad too, so this game is only if you like the soccer finances part.

- SAAP: I read really good coments about it, like represing the real coach feeeling as insted of player ratings like A, B or 20, 18 etc you get reports from your assistants about how the players perform on the training sessions. I like the idea behind it, but not how is done as i saw that you need to take paper and pen and write it all while i would like to be able to see past data on the player profile. Also the interface is ugly (i know is not the more important feature in a text sim, but also helps you to get more confortable wiht the game). Also i don't like the match representation with the 2d view. I really whish i coudl get hooked to this game as i like the idea but i have tried 3 times without success.

My expectations about soccer games? As every year, i put all my hope on CM, if the media interation is improved and the 2D AI reworked to play real football this could be "the soccer sim".
This year i have also a bit of hope on the new TCM, if they are able to make the FIFA engine to work properly with the manager engine this could be a good CM competitor.

American football:

- TCY: I like the idea a lot, to take a small college team and make it a top one. Also the recruiting system is the best one i have seen. The micromanagement is really deep and i love it (i know some of you hate it) Also the TCY helper is a great tool to help you on that. What do i miss? to be more involved on the match, i like to set gameplans but i would like also to select play by play or at least change the gameplan at any time in the match, like if for example my run is stoped every time, to choose more passing plays, also if the other team is not covering well one of my receivers, to pass more to him. Whithout this, once the seasons starts and you man management is set, you only have to recruit and fast sim a game so you don't get involved with your players even not knowing the names of the ones that aren't your top stars. I woul dneed to fell more a real coach, i hope Jim can import this from FOF4 to make TCY perfect.

- FOF4 (demo): As with TCY, i like the deep rooster micromanage and the gameplans setup, i can spend hours on that. Also i like the play by play option. What i miss is the financial part, deal with sponsors, set ticket prices, etc, to be the GM insted of only the coach. Anyway i haven't bought it as i said in other threads as it's not downloadable and i live in Spain so every time i thought on buying it, the 2 or 3 weeks to wait for it killed by ilusion.

- Football Mogul: What a joke of game, you just setup rooster and a crap gameplan and then just click on sim, then again and again untill you get tired of the game not having any control about the matches or anything (i got bored after 10 minutes).

My expectation about Football games? the incoming TPF seems to have all that we could dream (well not all, some of you want totaly customization like OOTP and it will be a bit limited, i don't care about it as i want to sim real league wtih real roosters not fantasy leagues). It will have finances management, rooster management, play by play etc etc. I'm really exited about it visiting their board everyday, i hope it can be what they promisse.
I would love also a TCY2 with play by play and more interation with your team rooster with messages from them about how they feel etc, mybe also a better looking interface.

Hockey games:
I have played EHM and it's really a good game, near the CM series where it was inspired, the only problem is that it's a bit slow as has been codded on VB but it's not a big issue for me.
It's deep enought, witih player interation etc. The only problem i find on it (and mybe it's not on this game but on hockey sport) is that once i find good lines i just keep simming game by game not having a lot more to do unless somebody is injured or untill the preseason with the draft, waivers, etc. There is only a few tactics in the game and you can't control a lot how your players perform so i get bored before finishing the long 82 games season.

My hope is the new EHM under SI that seems to be a deeper game, faster on the proved CM3 engine (the best ever IMHO) and that will also have all the world leagues and national teams/competitions.

Basketball games:
- Fast break basketball: Great game about rooster management and basketball tactics, i really like it but i miss some features like the finacial part and more "live" players. They are just stats without moral drops, without complaining if not game time etc. Another game where you tend to just sim and sim as there isn't alot to do during the season once you find your starting team. That is why i need games where my team guya re not just stats but live guys with personality that adds more interest to the rooster management.

- TDCB: I like the interface that proves that text games don't need to have ugly excel type interface. for me it has the second best recruiting system after TCY. I like a lot the representation of the match, with the X or O from where the last shoot was made. That is really usefull and adds a bigger dimension to the text only sims. The players faces is a good factor that hepls to get involved with your players. What do i miss? again and again on mostly of USA sports sims the players are just stats, they don't complain if they don't play, they don't have personal problems with other players, they only improve during the offseason, etc etc, they are just stats and thats kill the real life sim feeling for me.

- FBCB: Another great college game, lots of interesting features but i don't like the recruiting system at all. You don't have any feedback from the player when you phone him, visit him etc, you even doesn't know if they are picked by another school and why they prefered that school over yours. Again and again the players are just stats without personality, only develop only in the preseason and the play time doesn't mathers for player progression that i can't underestand in a college game, players should develop faster if they get play time.

My future hope? well al them could be if they add more personality to the players so they won't be just stats. A good promissing game that i'm following is the incoming one from 400ss TPB that seems to have lots of features.

My resume after this loooong post
Why mostly of american sport sims doesn't add player personalities like CM has? inmostly of the games the players are just stats that doesn't complain if they don't play, they don't mind if you hire more players on their same position (should have morale drop as in CM), the don't have morale so they don't mind to win or lose, the don't train or develop during the season and i really can't underestand this. Doesn't the american sports teams train during the season as european soccer ones do? i'm sure that football teams train during the week so they players get better form and more team chemistry, etc so again, why mostly of american sports sims don't add this and nobody complains? For a real inmersive sim experience as coach or GM i need to feel that i'm managing real guys not stats and only a few games offers that. Of course i suposse that this AI is hard to implement in a game, but SI has done it for ages on the CM series and EHM also has it (less deep) so it can be done.

Well lets see TPF as it's supossed to have all this that i need from a sim to be the game i'm waiting since some time aqo and looking this whole year throught tons of other sport sims. Now it's your time, i have written enought about my curent frustration

[Bonegavel]

ICY, obviously you haven't been to this board very long. We do *complain* about these missing aspects. All the CMers here love to tout their game and how it gets you involved, but no American Football sim (all 1 of em) does that. A group of us have made it known that we would like a deeper experience with players. Do a search on the board; many threads about this.

Oh, welcome to FOFC. Where are you from?

[vex]

ICY, I think you just need to play Hattrick

[Icy]

Originally posted by BoneGavel
ICY, obviously you haven't been to this board very long. We do *complain* about these missing aspects. All the CMers here love to tout their game and how it gets you involved, but no American Football sim (all 1 of em) does that. A group of us have made it known that we would like a deeper experience with players. Do a search on the board; many threads about this.

Oh, welcome to FOFC. Where are you from?

Hi BoneGrave you're right, i knew about this board about 2 months ago and didn't start to post until a week ago or so. You're also right about how CMers (i like this world to call us ) feel about sim games. Once you have played it (more the old versions) you can't look the other sims the same way, all them miss that real world experience. I think that lots of American sims lovers preffer to have a game where to sim past seasons ang get acurate stats, like the OOTP comunity but in a sport sim i want to to simulate how a manager feels, that means to have a "real" world around me as in real life, players and board with personality, other coaches and gm smart enought to be a challenge, press conferences and news, to be able to take a small team and make it big, to get involved with that young guy that you help to develop to be a top star, etc etc. As i said before i want to feeel that i'm a real manager/coach and try to feel in a game the same that they feel in real life, mybe that is the cause of the frustration as only some games like the CM series has given us this adn now that feeling is out of the new CM. I really have alot of hope on the new TPF as it seems the CM of football, i hope i won't be disapointed again.

Btw, i'm from the sunny Spain, all is about soccer here, this is the first year that we can enjoy live Football and Hockey at paid TV, about 4 live games per week. I'm one of the few spanish that underestand and enjoy football, none of my friends do so i need to recreate my football universe on the PC

[Icy]

Originally posted by vexroid
ICY, I think you just need to play Hattrick

Hi, i don't know if we are talking of the same hattrick, i already play at the online hattrick.org and it's not so amazing or deep, am i missing another hattrick?

[Samdari]

No, the not-so-amazing, not-so-deep hattrick.org is what they are talking about. Some members of this forum have deluded themselves into thinking it is fun.

[Bonegavel]

nice ICY.

Well, I know my fascination with accurate stats for football stem from the fact that I am very comfortable with current NFL parameters for stats. If a sim-game varied from that, I wouldn't be able to use my own knowledge to help me and it takes me right out of the zone. (i have a feeling that is a by-product of getting older and crotchety with the increasing desire for things to be just right).

for instance, we know that not many NFL QBs throw for over 4,000 yds in a season. A QB that does that is special. In FOF, most of the QBs throw over 4,000 yds. What is the new milestone? Doesn't seem to be one. Maybe 5,000? Don't know.

FOF's algorithm for RBs seems to be much more refined, though I have seen some odd ball stuff in there as well.

It's good to see overseas interest in the greatest game ever created

[vex]

Originally posted by Icy
Hi, i don't know if we are talking of the same hattrick, i already play at the online hattrick.org and it's not so amazing or deep, am i missing another hattrick?

I was just joking. However, it does go slowly

[korme]

Originally posted by BoneGavel
This comes up all the time, but I'll give you my take.

What is missing is the lack of verisimilitude. In real football you get to know the players. You see them on sports center, you hear them being talked about all the time, hell, some of us even wear jerseys with their names on them (and some probably have bed sheets with their team logo).

That is all missing in the text sims. You click on a player during the draft to scout. You see numbers. That is it. You never see a lick of film (for obvious reasons) or see him practice or play. You simply see his stat-bars.

To me, one of the enjoyable things about the NFL is talking with friends about the game, or things like coming on this board and defending McNabb or discussing why Keyshawn is a loud-mouth average receiver.

Until they can give you this feeling, I don't think PC games (text or graphical) will ever fill that void you feel.

That's a great point. All these text sims should really think about expanding their news items. Could you just imagine...

"Lewis protests about lack of attention"

Billy Lewis, WR for XX, complained about the number of looks he got in last Sunday's game, catching just 2 balls for 17 yards. "I deserve to play on a team that wants to throw to me 10 times a game."
--

And here you are thinking, that Lewis is such a loudmouth. I'm glad that cancer isn't on my team!

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by Shorty3281
That's a great point. All these text sims should really think about expanding their news items. Could you just imagine...

"Lewis protests about lack of attention"

Billy Lewis, WR for XX, complained about the number of looks he got in last Sunday's game, catching just 2 balls for 17 yards. "I deserve to play on a team that wants to throw to me 10 times a game."
--

And here you are thinking, that Lewis is such a loudmouth. I'm glad that cancer isn't on my team!

I think NCAA 2004's SI covers are about the closest we have to this so far, but I would love to see things such as this in sports games.


Todd

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by BoneGavel
for instance, we know that not many NFL QBs throw for over 4,000 yds in a season. A QB that does that is special. In FOF, most of the QBs throw over 4,000 yds. What is the new milestone? Doesn't seem to be one. Maybe 5,000? Don't know.

While that might be true, running a very pass-heavy offense (FOF2001) it took me until 2130 to better Dan Marino's real life single-season TD record (48) when my QB finally threw 50. I only came close (45 or 46) three other times previous.

[HeavyReign]

Originally posted by Icy
FBCB: ...the play time doesn't mathers for player progression that i can't underestand in a college game, players should develop faster if they get play time.

That isn't accurate. Playing time is factored into the amount the player grows in the offseason.

[Icy]

Originally posted by HeavyReign
That isn't accurate. Playing time is factored into the amount the player grows in the offseason.

I'm sorry HeavyReign, i think i read it at your forum but i could be wrong, it's your game so you know it better than any other
Now that you are the only developer answering to this thread, why mostly of you usa sport games developers don't add training and player development during the season? In real life, players train almost every day and this helps to his form, team chemistry, skills improvement etc, and even more in a college game. As this is a tendence in lots of sim games, is that done that way for any reason or just because it's easier to code it that way? also, don't you think that form and even morale should be an atribute as important as the other ones? a player in bad form or with very bad morale will perform worst than if he is in full shape and happy, i think this two atributtes are a must into any sport sim. This is not just related at your games, this is a question for you as developer as i'm curious.