I can't stand this school- but this is B.S.

tucker342 · 11-05-2003, 10:58 AM

If you think your state's way of deciding who gets to go to the playoffs if there's a tie is bad, listen to this:

http://www.press-citizen.com/sports/...03suchomel.htm

I thought this was football, not a spelling bee.

Friday, Regina did what it thought it had to in order to get into the state playoffs for the first time in 31 years.

But after celebrating a 24-20 victory over WACO, the Regals went home happy, and then went to bed sad after finding out their season was over.

Not because of a missed tackle.

Not for lack of a kicking game.

Not for anything on the field of play.

No, the Regals put the shoulder pads back on the shelf after being beaten by the alphabet.

Y'see, Regina and South Hamilton both ended up with identical 6-1 district records and the same average margin of victory in seven district games.

But because South Hamilton of Jewell comes after Regina of Iowa City alphabetically, the Hawks got the final at-large playoff spot in Class 1A.

Every year the Iowa High School Athletic Association flips the alphabet order. This year it was reverse alphabetical order.

Officially, it was the "J" of Jewell coming in one letter ahead of the "I" in Iowa City.

But the Regals would've been behind the letter, so to speak, even if they had compared South Hamilton to Regina.

So an offseason in the weight room, three weeks of two-a-days and a 7-2 record over nine weeks is diminished by a letter.

I don't know if that letter is scarlet, but the IHSAA should be.

Surely there are better tiebreakers that would've left a less bitter taste in Regal mouths.

Here are a few suggestions:

• Non-district record and/or non-district scoring margin.

• A quality win formula that gives points for victories over winning teams.

• Heck, even the old Big Ten method of giving the berth to the team that has gone the longest without a playoff berth.

• For that matter, a pie-eating contest would be more decisive.

Letting it all ride on the alphabet seems random and unexplainable.

South Hamilton, I'm sure, has a fine football team. I'm sure they felt at least a bit sheepish for sneaking in the back door this way.

But they probably feel they belong there, and aren't about to apologize for it.

To say that Regina was robbed is a bit unfair to the 16 good teams that qualified for the playoffs.

The true crime may be a system set up to punish good teams in good districts and reward good teams in bad districts.

The most points for margin of victory a team can earn for a win is 13 - a rule put in to prevent coaches from running up the score (which I thought the 50-point burn rule was for).

If there are two dominant teams in a weak district, they'll rack up 13 points in every victory (except when they face each other).

But a team stuck in a district with several good teams is at a disadvantage. Narrow victories over quality opposition end up hurting a team's chances of earning a playoff berth.

So what is the solution? Regina coach Chuck Evans suggested going to eight districts. That way, the state could take the champion and runner-up from each, as it does in Class 3A.

After all, tiebreakers are much easier to discern within your own district than halfway across the state.

But whatever happens, even if nothing does, it comes as little consolation to the 2003 Regals.

Franklin · 11-05-2003, 11:03 AM

Wow... that sucks.

JeeberD · 11-05-2003, 11:05 AM

That's worse than the Texas coin flip (though Senator might tell you otherwise)....

Huckleberry · 11-05-2003, 11:09 AM

Much worse than the coin flip. At least with a coin flip each team has an equal shot at the playoffs the whole season. In this case, the school first in alphabetical order was technically at a disadvantage the entire year.

Besides, the Texas coin flip, I thought, was only used in 3-way ties that can't be decided any other way. We pull the same number of teams out of each district, so a 2-team tie like this would be decided by head-to-head result.

Ben E Lou · 11-05-2003, 11:09 AM

In Georgia the final playoff decider is a short mini-game. I've never heard of anything like this...

scooper · 11-05-2003, 11:10 AM

Ohio has a fairly complicated points based computer system to determine playoff teams. It's confusing but it's pretty fair. It rewards teams with tough schedules and for beating teams with tough schedules. The state crowns six division winners. There are four regions per division with eight teams getting in from each region. Teams are ranked by the average points so teams with only 9 games (most play 10) are not hurt. By the time you add second and third hand points and average it out, scores are broken down in to hundreths of a point. So ties are very rare. I can't recall it ever happening.

HornedFrog Purple · 11-05-2003, 11:16 AM

Yeah the coin flip is still here but they have added a couple of more tiebreakers ahead of it then there used to be. Thank goodness they didn't use this when I was in high school, going to a school named Zephyr would be very bad for morale every other year.

JonInMiddleGA · 11-05-2003, 11:26 AM

Egads, that's awful.

Hammer755 · 11-05-2003, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scooper
Ohio has a fairly complicated points based computer system to determine playoff teams. It's confusing but it's pretty fair. It rewards teams with tough schedules and for beating teams with tough schedules. The state crowns six division winners. There are four regions per division with eight teams getting in from each region. Teams are ranked by the average points so teams with only 9 games (most play 10) are not hurt. By the time you add second and third hand points and average it out, scores are broken down in to hundreths of a point. So ties are very rare. I can't recall it ever happening.

Ohio has used computer rankings to determine playoff teams for quite some time. My alma mater was denied a playoff spot after a perfect season in the early 70's thanks to a well-publicized and publically admitted (after the fact) computer error.

scooper · 11-05-2003, 11:48 AM

That sucks. I'd like to think the computer system has been worked out. A few years ago they expaned from 4 teams per region to 8. That's fair because by the time you finish 9th in the region, you really aren't THAT deserving. Finishing a close 5th, though, is a different story. When I was in HS, a team here in Cincinnati finished 10-0 and didn't make the playoffs. They are an inner-city team that played a weak schedule. But with their conference, the schedule really wasn't their fault. The switch to eight teams has been within the past 5 or so years. I like it.

Glengoyne · 11-05-2003, 11:57 AM

Here in CA we use the coin flip to determine three way ties, if the head to head matchups do not provide a clear winner. We also use the "team with the longest playoff draught" rule at a relatively early stage in the tie breaking ladder. Overall most of the tiebreakers are determined by H2H results. I think the big difference is that we don't have a state championship for football. So the pool of schools you might be tied with is pared down quite a bit, and usually only includes schools you have played.

Francis_Cole · 11-05-2003, 11:58 AM

I thought you were going to say that had a spelling contest

sooner333 · 11-05-2003, 12:12 PM

In Oklahoma they just take the top 4 teams out of each division to set up a 16 team playoff in each class. I think one of the lower classes has 8 divisions, so they do the top two teams. Anyway, the out of division record doesn't matter at all, and tiebreaks are settled by head-to-head first (I think), then scoring margin in division games (there is a cap of 15 points for each game, so if you win by 50, you only get +15, same if you lose by 50). It seems like a fair system to me. Alphabet is really stupid and really needs to be changed.

Blackadar · 11-05-2003, 12:51 PM

Damn, that's a stupid method. The alphabet?

Forget a computer. Either make it a coin toss or a play-in game.

Senator · 11-05-2003, 01:44 PM

Yes, the coin toss was the result of a three way tie.

We had the advantage in total wins - 9 to 8 to 8, but with one district loss each it tied it up. We also owned them on all stats that could possibly be touted.

But, yeah, the alphabet is even worse.

HornedFrog Purple · 11-05-2003, 01:55 PM

What is sad yet funny at the same time, in some areas of Texas still, if you lose a coin flip not only will there be 40 For Sale signs set up in your front yard but you will get FIRED.

Some of the coin flips are like the secret service. They don't tell anybody where it is except the three coaches involved and they do it at some random truck stop in the middle of nowhere.

Just as an example read "Friday Night Lights" sometime. It's a great book.

sabotai · 11-05-2003, 03:13 PM

Re
Tard
Ed

tucker342 · 11-05-2003, 10:45 PM

Friday Night Lights is a great book.

It should go:
- record
- head-to-head
- then computer rankings
- If it is still tied, then they can do longest time without going to playoffs
- If it's still tied, have them play eachother to decide.

I'm guessing this rule will be changed after this season.

mckerney · 11-05-2003, 10:48 PM

7-2 teams not making the playoffs

SunDancer · 11-06-2003, 12:45 AM

They should play a 15-minute quarter....

sterlingice · 11-06-2003, 02:07 AM

Sounds like the BCS has found it's new way to break ties.

SI

Blackadar · 11-06-2003, 05:54 AM

I am sofa king we todd did.

Ben E Lou · 11-06-2003, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackadar
I am sofa king we todd did.

Uh oh. Blacky is one the same stuff that Shorty took yesterday evening....

Senator · 11-06-2003, 06:21 AM

Quote:

7-2 teams not making the playoffs

We were 9-1. I have sour many sour grapes, I sit here making wine (whine).

ice4277 · 11-06-2003, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scooper
Ohio has a fairly complicated points based computer system to determine playoff teams. It's confusing but it's pretty fair. It rewards teams with tough schedules and for beating teams with tough schedules. The state crowns six division winners. There are four regions per division with eight teams getting in from each region. Teams are ranked by the average points so teams with only 9 games (most play 10) are not hurt. By the time you add second and third hand points and average it out, scores are broken down in to hundreths of a point. So ties are very rare. I can't recall it ever happening.

This is essentially how it works in Michigan as well. For the playoffs, there are eight divisions of 32 teams. All teams with 6 wins or more make the playoffs, the divisions for the playoffs I believe are determined after the playoff teams are decided based on the enrollment of the playoff schools. Playoff points are used in two circumstances: if there are more teams with 6 wins than there are playoff spots, points are used to determine the qualifiers, or (more commonly) if there are less 6-win teams, playoff points are used to determine 5-win qualifiers for the remaining spots. I'm not sure how long the points system has been used, it had more importance a few years ago when there were nowhere near as many playoff teams, but with 200-some schools making the playoffs nowadays, its nowhere near as big a deal.

Eaglesfan27 · 11-06-2003, 10:35 AM

I agree with almost everyone else. This is so inane. It should be a playoff game of some sort, even a short mini-game. If that isn't possible, then at least use a coin toss rather then deciding it alphabetically.

11-05-2003, 11:05 AM	#3
JeeberD General Manager Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Town of Flower Mound	That's worse than the Texas coin flip (though Senator might tell you otherwise).... __________________ UTEP Miners!!! I solemnly swear to never cheer for TO

11-05-2003, 11:09 AM	#4
Huckleberry College Starter Join Date: Dec 2001	Much worse than the coin flip. At least with a coin flip each team has an equal shot at the playoffs the whole season. In this case, the school first in alphabetical order was technically at a disadvantage the entire year. Besides, the Texas coin flip, I thought, was only used in 3-way ties that can't be decided any other way. We pull the same number of teams out of each district, so a 2-team tie like this would be decided by head-to-head result. __________________ The one thing all your failed relationships have in common is you. The Barking Carnival (Longhorn-centered sports blog) College Football Adjusted Stats and Ratings

11-05-2003, 11:09 AM	#5
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	In Georgia the final playoff decider is a short mini-game. I've never heard of anything like this... __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

11-05-2003, 11:16 AM	#7
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	Yeah the coin flip is still here but they have added a couple of more tiebreakers ahead of it then there used to be. Thank goodness they didn't use this when I was in high school, going to a school named Zephyr would be very bad for morale every other year. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy) Last edited by HornedFrog Purple : 11-05-2003 at 11:22 AM.

11-05-2003, 11:26 AM	#8
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	Egads, that's awful. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

11-05-2003, 11:03 AM	#2
Franklin Banned Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Placerville, CA	Wow... that sucks.

11-05-2003, 11:10 AM	#6
scooper College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cinn City	Ohio has a fairly complicated points based computer system to determine playoff teams. It's confusing but it's pretty fair. It rewards teams with tough schedules and for beating teams with tough schedules. The state crowns six division winners. There are four regions per division with eight teams getting in from each region. Teams are ranked by the average points so teams with only 9 games (most play 10) are not hurt. By the time you add second and third hand points and average it out, scores are broken down in to hundreths of a point. So ties are very rare. I can't recall it ever happening.

11-05-2003, 11:48 AM	#10
scooper College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cinn City	That sucks. I'd like to think the computer system has been worked out. A few years ago they expaned from 4 teams per region to 8. That's fair because by the time you finish 9th in the region, you really aren't THAT deserving. Finishing a close 5th, though, is a different story. When I was in HS, a team here in Cincinnati finished 10-0 and didn't make the playoffs. They are an inner-city team that played a weak schedule. But with their conference, the schedule really wasn't their fault. The switch to eight teams has been within the past 5 or so years. I like it.

11-05-2003, 11:57 AM	#11
Glengoyne Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Fresno, CA	Here in CA we use the coin flip to determine three way ties, if the head to head matchups do not provide a clear winner. We also use the "team with the longest playoff draught" rule at a relatively early stage in the tie breaking ladder. Overall most of the tiebreakers are determined by H2H results. I think the big difference is that we don't have a state championship for football. So the pool of schools you might be tied with is pared down quite a bit, and usually only includes schools you have played.

11-05-2003, 11:58 AM	#12
Francis_Cole SI Games Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: London, England	I thought you were going to say that had a spelling contest __________________ "We are not the Chad Pennington Jets" - Chad Pennington

11-05-2003, 12:12 PM	#13
sooner333 College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Norman, OK	In Oklahoma they just take the top 4 teams out of each division to set up a 16 team playoff in each class. I think one of the lower classes has 8 divisions, so they do the top two teams. Anyway, the out of division record doesn't matter at all, and tiebreaks are settled by head-to-head first (I think), then scoring margin in division games (there is a cap of 15 points for each game, so if you win by 50, you only get +15, same if you lose by 50). It seems like a fair system to me. Alphabet is really stupid and really needs to be changed.

11-05-2003, 12:51 PM	#14
Blackadar Retired Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fantasyland	Damn, that's a stupid method. The alphabet? Forget a computer. Either make it a coin toss or a play-in game. Last edited by Blackadar : 11-05-2003 at 12:51 PM.

11-05-2003, 01:44 PM	#15
Senator FOFC's Elected Representative Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The stars at night; are big and bright	Yes, the coin toss was the result of a three way tie. We had the advantage in total wins - 9 to 8 to 8, but with one district loss each it tied it up. We also owned them on all stats that could possibly be touted. But, yeah, the alphabet is even worse. __________________ "i have seen chris simms play 4-5 times in the pros and he's very clearly got it. he won't make a pro bowl this year, but it'll come. if you don't like me saying that, so be it, but its true. we'll just have to wait until then" imettrentgreen "looking at only ten games, and oddly using a median only, leaves me unmoved generally" - Quiksand

11-05-2003, 01:55 PM	#16
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	What is sad yet funny at the same time, in some areas of Texas still, if you lose a coin flip not only will there be 40 For Sale signs set up in your front yard but you will get FIRED. Some of the coin flips are like the secret service. They don't tell anybody where it is except the three coaches involved and they do it at some random truck stop in the middle of nowhere. Just as an example read "Friday Night Lights" sometime. It's a great book. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

11-05-2003, 03:13 PM	#17
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	Re Tard Ed

11-05-2003, 10:45 PM	#18
tucker342 Pro Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Iowa City, IA	Friday Night Lights is a great book. It should go: - record - head-to-head - then computer rankings - If it is still tied, then they can do longest time without going to playoffs - If it's still tied, have them play eachother to decide. I'm guessing this rule will be changed after this season.

11-05-2003, 10:48 PM	#19
mckerney Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	7-2 teams not making the playoffs

11-06-2003, 12:45 AM	#20
SunDancer College Benchwarmer Join Date: Sep 2002	They should play a 15-minute quarter....

11-06-2003, 02:07 AM	#21
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	Sounds like the BCS has found it's new way to break ties. SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

11-06-2003, 05:54 AM	#22
Blackadar Retired Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fantasyland	I am sofa king we todd did.

11-06-2003, 10:35 AM	#26
Eaglesfan27 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey	I agree with almost everyone else. This is so inane. It should be a playoff game of some sort, even a short mini-game. If that isn't possible, then at least use a coin toss rather then deciding it alphabetically. __________________ Retired GM of the eNFL 2007 Super Bowl Champion Philadelphia Eagles (19-0 record.) GM of the WOOF 2006 Doggie Bowl Champion Atlantic City Gamblers. GM of the IHOF 2019 and 2022 IHOF Bowl Champion Asheville Axemen.

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