How long has this been going on?

[Glengoyne]

This is something that has been bothering me, and I am wondering if anyone knows what the genesis of this movement was. I am, of course, talking about the predominant usage of the word pleaded by the media. Up until about two years or so ago, EVERYONE said pled. When a few media sources started dropping pleaded into their reports, I looked it up. My dictionary said it was the 'British' form, and that pled was almost uniquely American. I silently hoped the practice would go away, but it has now become pervasive. It just annoys me.

The only thing that annoys me more is when newscasters say "an historic". A few months ago Stuart Scott said something was "an historic" event. I cringed, but then he compounded his error by saying "You noticed I said that all correct there, you know". The biggest problem with this error is that the people saying it universally think they are correct, and that the correct usage of a is practically uncivilized. Morons.

[cuervo72]

You mean I didn't attend istory class in high school ?

[Huckleberry]

The historic thing depends on how you pronounce historic. While listed with the opening h sound in most dictionaries, in actual practice the word is often pronounced with such a soft h sound that it's often silent.

If you pronounce the h audibly, say "a".

If you don't, say "an".

[Ksyrup]

I have always used "an" in front of words like historic. It just flows better.

As for "pleaded," that is the correct legal usage. No one has "pled" guilty to a charge, they "pleaded." I assume the writers are just getting technical, since most people would say pled.

[wbonnell]

In academia, at least, an is the proper article for historian, historic, or historical.

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by wbonnell
In academia, at least, an is the proper article for historian, historic, or historical.

It is not proper. It is misapplied. The rule governing the usage of a and an addresses the sound that starts the following word. So words like honor an hour are preceded by "an", and words like history and horrific are preceeded by "a". It is true that Brits used to and I think often still pronounce history without the 'H'. If these people were saying or writing an 'istoric event, I wouldn't have as much of a problem. The deal is if you pronounce the word with an H, you have to preceed it with "a".

People who insist on An Historic, are trying to sound educated and proper. Just because well educated or "proper" people apply that usage, doesn't make it correct or even proper.

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
I have always used "an" in front of words like historic. It just flows better.

As for "pleaded," that is the correct legal usage. No one has "pled" guilty to a charge, they "pleaded." I assume the writers are just getting technical, since most people would say pled.

To me an historic sounds horribly broken. An hour sounds correct.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
To me an historic sounds horribly broken. An hour sounds correct.

That's because you're pronouncing the "h" in historic, but not hour. What I meant is, "a historic" sounds much worse than "an [h]istoric." "An [h]istoric" flows much better.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
People who insist on An Historic, are trying to sound educated and proper.

No, I'm just trying to avoid saying "a historic," since it sounds bad to me.

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
That's because you're pronouncing the "h" in historic, but not hour. What I meant is, "a historic" sounds much worse than "an [h]istoric." "An [h]istoric" flows much better.

SO you took Istory of Western Civilization? The word is History, and the H is not silent. The word starts with a consonant sound, not a vowel sound(like hour or honor). The rule dictates the usage of "a".

In my opinion someone saying "an historic" is trying, hopelessly, to look educated. It is pretentious.


The pleaded vs pled thing, only annoys me because common usage was pled, but has now morphed into pleaded, and I can't really understand why. The change happened, IMO, over about a 4 year period, I am wondering what instigated it.

[wbonnell]

Originally posted by Glengoyne

People who insist on An Historic, are trying to sound educated and proper. Just because well educated or "proper" people apply that usage, doesn't make it correct or even proper.

Please tell that to my history professor...

[wbonnell]

Originally posted by Glengoyne

In my opinion someone saying "an historic" is trying, hopelessly, to look educated. It is pretentious.

Maybe so, but the scholarly journals I have read of late almost exclusively use an

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by wbonnell
Maybe so, but the scholarly journals I have read of late almost exclusively use an

OK so long as you realize they are wrong

This thread was my attempt at staving off boredom at work, until the next showing of the "The Matrix" starts. I am almost there.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
SO you took Istory of Western Civilization? The word is History, and the H is not silent. The word starts with a consonant sound, not a vowel sound(like hour or honor). The rule dictates the usage of "a".

In my opinion someone saying "an historic" is trying, hopelessly, to look educated. It is pretentious.


The pleaded vs pled thing, only annoys me because common usage was pled, but has now morphed into pleaded, and I can't really understand why. The change happened, IMO, over about a 4 year period, I am wondering what instigated it.

Not quite sure what to tell you on the historic thing. Being pretentious isn't on my to-do list. I just think it sounds better that way than the other way. And the way I say it, the 'h' isn't completely silent, but it's not a hard 'h' sound, either. It's there, but more of a bridge between the 'n' and the 'i'.

As for pleaded, the change may have happened over a 4 year period in the mainstream press, but "pleaded" has always been the correct term in legal circles.

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
...

As for pleaded, the change may have happened over a 4 year period in the mainstream press, but "pleaded" has always been the correct term in legal circles.

OK that is good stuff. I guess if I had been in more trouble with the law I would have known that lawyers were always saying pleaded.

With regard to the A/AN debate,
Is it okay If I consider you pretentious?
Maybe we can get SkyDog to put it in your title?
Something like ' pretentious non-lubricant'

[cuervo72]

Don't wake an hibernating bear.

The physician performed an hysterectomy.

Let's not have an hissy fit over this...

[Bonegavel]

If you have an problem, just go to the theatre and, if you get a might bit peckish, pick up an flavoured fish and chips.

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by cuervo72
Don't wake an hibernating bear.

The physician performed an hysterectomy.

Let's not have an hissy fit over this...

Enough already....I have exposed myself to endless barbs through incorrect grammar. I have exposed my weakness, my kryptonite. I will forever be distracted by the senseless improper use of articles.

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by Bonegavel
If you have an problem, just go to the theatre and, if you get a might bit peckish, pick up an flavoured fish and chips.

/cringe

[Franklin]

Ping: Kickstand

[korme]

ping: Change your name back, firstname boy

[Bonegavel]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
Enough already....I have exposed myself to endless barbs through incorrect grammar. I have exposed my weakness, my kryptonite. I will forever be distracted by the senseless improper use of articles.

An kryptonite?

[kcchief19]

I hate to break it to you Glen, but you're wrong on a/an.

From the guide to correct grammar sitting on my desk:

"It is the sound, not the actual letter, which determines the form of the indefinite article: a university, an RCA television set, an 8-sided object. In some instances when there are different pronounciations of the same word, the pronounciation used by the speaker or writer determins the form of the article. If the writer pronounces the humble omitting the aspirant or the h-sound, then the form an humble person may be used."

In your case, clearly you would always use the article a. Maybe in Stuart Scott's case he should have used the a, depending on how he pronounces the word.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by kcchief19
I hate to break it to you Glen, but you're wrong on a/an.

From the guide to correct grammar sitting on my desk:

"It is the sound, not the actual letter, which determines the form of the indefinite article: a university, an RCA television set, an 8-sided object. In some instances when there are different pronounciations of the same word, the pronounciation used by the speaker or writer determins the form of the article. If the writer pronounces the humble omitting the aspirant or the h-sound, then the form an humble person may be used."

In your case, clearly you would always use the article a. Maybe in Stuart Scott's case he should have used the a, depending on how he pronounces the word.

Maybe your correct grammar guide is just "trying to sound educated and proper." The people with Phd. In English that wrote the book need to go over to Glengoyne’s house so he can correct them. I have a college English book right here that says the exact same thing.

People do realize that English rules change all the time, and can differ from English book to English book? If that weren’t true, we’d still be saying “thou art wrong.”

[Aylmar]

Thou art wrong.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Franklin
Ping: Kickstand

I'm hoping his absence from the board today (at least from my awareness of who's been around) means that Jim is readying the game for release. I hope it also means that things are under control in Michigan for Jim.

[Franklin]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
I'm hoping his absence from the board today (at least from my awareness of who's been around) means that Jim is readying the game for release. I hope it also means that things are under control in Michigan for Jim.

Could be... I'd imagine that, as a beta tester, he'd probably be one of the first to test-drive the final version, and even test the download and licensing options.

That said, I'm not sure he could resist the temptation to log on here and tease us about it.

[Passacaglia]

Originally posted by kcchief19
I hate to break it to you Glen, but you're wrong on a/an.

While we're talking about annoying things, has anyone who's ever said "I hate to break it to you" actually hated to break it to the person they were talking to?

[John Galt]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Maybe your correct grammar guide is just "trying to sound educated and proper." The people with Phd. In English that wrote the book need to go over to Glengoyne’s house so he can correct them. I have a college English book right here that says the exact same thing.

People do realize that English rules change all the time, and can differ from English book to English book? If that weren’t true, we’d still be saying “thou art wrong.”

And I suppose we are supposed to believe the World Champion Mis-speller about what the proper grammar rule is.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Passacaglia
While we're talking about annoying things, has anyone who's ever said "I hate to break it to you" actually hated to break it to the person they were talking to?

Yes. I really didn't want to have to tell her about the STD, but I felt like I had to.

[SplitPersonality1]

Good going Glengoyne. Now I have that crappy 70s song stuck in my head.

"How loooooong...has this been going on?"

[CraigSca]

One of my faves that I am guilty of using ALL the time is, "to be honest with you..." Which, of course, insinuates that I'm not being completely honest 100% of the time.

I blame this on my subconscious and the 1979 Pittsburgh Pirates.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by SplitPersonality1
Good going Glengoyne. Now I have that crappy 70s song stuck in my head.

"How loooooong...has this been going on?"

I've had "What's Going On?" by Marvin Gaye running through my head.

[Passacaglia]

I'm with SplitPersonality. Who sings that song, anyway?

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by CraigSca
One of my faves that I am guilty of using ALL the time is, "to be honest with you..." Which, of course, insinuates that I'm not being completely honest 100% of the time.

I blame this on my subconscious and the 1979 Pittsburgh Pirates.

Up until a few years ago, I didn't give this phrase much thought and probably used it a lot. Then I read something or heard something that took this phrase to task, along with something like "Truthfully, I..." or "Honestly, I..." as implying that by saying this, you're implying that usually you're lying or not telling the whole truth.

Since then I've consciously tried to avoid using these phrases or modifiers in my speech.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Passacaglia
I'm with SplitPersonality. Who sings that song, anyway?

I believe it was Ace, with Paul Carrack (from Mike + the Mechanics) as the singer.

[QuikSand]

I think that Glengoyne is partially correct, and partially mistaken.

I think that he is absolutely right when he states the rule regarding "a"-or-"an": it depends upon the initial sound of the following word, whether it is a vowel sound or a consonant sound.

I think he is mistaken in implicitly asserting that the word "historic" has an unambiguously correct pronounciation. I think this is a word where there simply are more than one way to correctly pronounce the word.

In spoken English, it's then probably best to match up the article with your own pronounciation-- if you pronounce the "h" prominently (as I do), then you are obliged to use the article "a" as Glengoyne suggests. If you leave the "h" either silent or nearly so, then the article "an" is appropriate.

This gets tougher, of course, in the written context. There, the proper usage cannot be a function of the writer's preferred pronounciation, which is unknown to the reader. I agree with most that observe that the use of "an" is becoming almost universal among respected outlets, which naturally coincides with the use of the so-called "British" pronounciation of the word "historic." I don't have a real sense whether the pronouncitation has taken a decided turn in that direction.

So, I think the best overall answer is this: when speaking, use the appropriate article for your pronounciation. When writing, defer to the prevailing convention and use "an."

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by kcchief19
I hate to break it to you Glen, but you're wrong on a/an.

From the guide to correct grammar sitting on my desk:

"It is the sound, not the actual letter, which determines the form of the indefinite article: a university, an RCA television set, an 8-sided object. In some instances when there are different pronounciations of the same word, the pronounciation used by the speaker or writer determins the form of the article. If the writer pronounces the humble omitting the aspirant or the h-sound, then the form an humble person may be used."

In your case, clearly you would always use the article a. Maybe in Stuart Scott's case he should have used the a, depending on how he pronounces the word.

OK I'm back from the matrix now, and I am NOT wrong. If someone pronounces Historic without the "H", they can say "An 'istoric" all they want. I might still be a bit peeved that they are pronouncing the word in a funky manner, but they wouldn't be using "an" incorrectly.

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I think that Glengoyne is partially correct, and partially mistaken.
...
So, I think the best overall answer is this: when speaking, use the appropriate article for your pronounciation. When writing, defer to the prevailing convention and use "an."

I agree with most of your post QS, but would instead say I am far more correct than I am mistaken. I do mention the alternate pronunciation in at least one of the early posts, and really if one chooses mis-pronounce "History" one can use "an" all one wants. If one doesn't mis-pronounce it, then use "a" damnit.

Also I don't think you can really say it is prevailing convention to use "an" when writing. Well you can say it, I guess, you might even be able to back it up, but I am going to hold fast that one shouldn't assume their readers are going to mispronounce words starting with "H".

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Maybe your correct grammar guide is just "trying to sound educated and proper." The people with Phd. In English that wrote the book need to go over to Glengoyne’s house so he can correct them. I have a college English book right here that says the exact same thing.

People do realize that English rules change all the time, and can differ from English book to English book? If that weren’t true, we’d still be saying “thou art wrong.”

Hey how can me and your grammar guide say the same thing, and you side with it against me? Isn't that a foul or something?

I should get a free throw.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
I agree with most of your post QS, but would instead say I am far more correct than I am mistaken. I do mention the alternate pronunciation in at least one of the early posts, and really if one chooses mis-pronounce "History" one can use "an" all one wants. If one doesn't mis-pronounce it, then use "a" damnit.

Also I don't think you can really say it is prevailing convention to use "an" when writing. Well you can say it, I guess, you might even be able to back it up, but I am going to hold fast that one shouldn't assume their readers are going to mispronounce words starting with "H".

I understand your point.

The only place we essentially disagree is in whether the fairly silent "h" is a mispronouncitation, or just a fairly common alternate. But just because you keep firmly insisting the former doesn't make it so, nor does it disprove anyone else's argument on the issue.

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I understand your point.

The only place we essentially disagree is in whether the fairly silent "h" is a mispronouncitation, or just a fairly common alternate. But just because you keep firmly insisting the former doesn't make it so, nor does it disprove anyone else's argument on the issue.

I have read this five times, and I am left to believe that you must have plaigarized it from something Faulkner wrote.

Who is the former?

Where is Jewel?

That said I think I understand that you pretty much agree with me, but will still point out that I am taking it too far.

[Jon]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Not quite sure what to tell you on the historic thing. Being pretentious isn't on my to-do list. I just think it sounds better that way than the other way. And the way I say it, the 'h' isn't completely silent, but it's not a hard 'h' sound, either. It's there, but more of a bridge between the 'n' and the 'i'.

As for pleaded, the change may have happened over a 4 year period in the mainstream press, but "pleaded" has always been the correct term in legal circles.

At one time, "pled" was an acceptable form. Only recently has "pleaded" become a more mainstream legal term. But, both are correct.

[Mac Howard]

Never heard the word "pled" either on the eastern side of the Atlantic or the western side of the Pacific

[KWhit]

"An historic" sucks.

[Craptacular]

Sometimes I wonder about this board ...

[kcchief19]

Originally posted by Passacaglia
While we're talking about annoying things, has anyone who's ever said "I hate to break it to you" actually hated to break it to the person they were talking to?

Actually, in this case, I did hate to break it to him because I was afraid he was going to kick me in the virtual nuts.

Originally posted by QuikSand
The only place we essentially disagree is in whether the fairly silent "h" is a mispronouncitation, or just a fairly common alternate. But just because you keep firmly insisting the former doesn't make it so, nor does it disprove anyone else's argument on the issue.

I wish I were more like Quik. I would probably be happier, thinner and more likable. I was getting ready to say the same thing, albeit my response also included several F-bombs, the word "shove" and the word "asshat."

[Axxon]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
OK I'm back from the matrix now, and I am NOT wrong. If someone pronounces Historic without the "H", they can say "An 'istoric" all they want. I might still be a bit peeved that they are pronouncing the word in a funky manner, but they wouldn't be using "an" incorrectly.

According to Merriam-Webster OnLine an goes with the hard H pronounciation.

Main Entry: his·tor·ic
Pronunciation: hi-'stor-ik, -'stär-
Function: adjective
Date: 1607
: HISTORICAL: as a : famous or important in history b : having great and lasting importance c : known or established in the past d : dating from or preserved from a past time or culture

The Columbia Guide to Standard American English has a different but interesting take.

In certain regional dialects, human is pronounced YOO-muhn rather than HYOO-muhn, and Hugh, although usually pronounced HYOO, can also be a homophone of you. Even more widespread in some regional dialects is the pronunciation of words spelled with the initial letters wh-, which many say as an hw sound cluster (as in HWICH for which, as opposed to WICH for witch), with a w sound, so that the words in each of these pairs, where/wear, wheel/weal, and whine/wine, are pronounced alike, as WER, WEEL, and WEIN, respectively. Nearly all Americans pronounce herb, honor, and heir without the initial h sound (UHRB, AHN-uhr, ER), and in words such as historic the initial h sound usually disappears when the sound accommodates to a preceding n, as in It was an historic moment (is-TOR-ik). And most Americans drop the initial h sounds from the pronouns him, her, his, and her at Casual and Impromptu levels when they are relatively unstressed: “I’ll ask ’er. “Give it to ’im.” “Tell ’im to call ’is mother.” And in a few words such as vehement, they frequently suppress a medial h sound, as in this Standard pronunciation of vehicle: VEE-ik-ul

which would lead one to think that we drop the 'H' because we're using the word an in front of it which supports your case.

The same book, under the heading historic says this

These two overlap in part, but most readers and hearers will perceive a general distinction: historic means generally “important in history,” as in It was a [an] historic occasion of great significance; historical means “about history, relating to history,” as in Historical novels are my favorite reading, and “in chronological order,” as in Historical linguistics traces languages over time. But historical too is occasionally used to mean “important in history,” so sometimes you will find both a [an] historical occasion and a [an] historic occasion. Best advice: try to maintain the distinction between historic and historical. Note too that although pronunciation of the initial h- in both words can lead to a choice of a or an, Edited English insists on a.

so if the words were written you'd be right but spoken and you haven't got a leg to stand on.

Now, if you want to say that people pronunciate historic wrong, for what it's worth I haven't seen one online definition that supports dropping the H so I'd agree with that. Remember, however that you said their usage of the word an was incorrect and it's NOT incorrect if they mispronounce the word historic as written above.

I'd suggest you harp on the actual possible error which is not what you did at all.

I would research more but I'm on serious moron duty at work and the morons are winning.