Where do we go from here?

[Anthony]

obviously this league is dead, if not so much as in a deep coma. i bought FOF2004 with the full intention of playing in an online league. solo is fun, but since i know the sport of football tons more than baseball, i expect to have more success in a football league and thus am eager to get the party started.

so, we're out a commish and many have stopped checking into this forum because of the snail's pace of progress we've had. at this point i'm eager to join *any* online league, elite or not.

so, we should move on. what are our options? should we scrap the "elite" tag and simply start something with whichever interested and devoted we can round up? let's get a dialogue started again and see if IHOF can get up and running sometime in 2004.

[Ben E Lou]

I, for one, would really like to see this league get going, and, short of being the commish myself, am willing to do whatever it takes to make that happen.

The first issue I see is that we need (in my opinion) a strong commish who will take the lead on making the little decisions, and bringing the big decisions to the table for a vote. Any suggestions?

[Fritz]

The technical aspects of being commish are not a big deal, but we need some positive leadership, and we need it (almost) everyday.

[Kodos]

Desperate times require desperate measures...


I nominate HornsManiac for Commish. He will carry this league even if he has to edit every single roster.





Okay, now seriously. Did we have any other candidates besides Vegas Vic when we started?

Just to throw out a name - what about revrew?

[cthomer5000]

unrelated question... what's the deal with Tobias? I was deleting some old PM's today, and realized he never responded to one I sent him. I then checked and noticed he hasn't been online in over a month.

I think we may need a 32nd owner as well.


edit: grammar correction.

[Anthony]

at this point i don't have who our 32nd owner is very high on my list of priorities. naming our new commish, getting the league started is more of a priority to me. after that having an official website is next, then having a full league.

i agree with skydog's and fritz's opinion on the kind of commish we need. we need someone who can quickly come in, get stuff organized and move things along.

my candidates for commish are as follows: (in no order) primelord, cuervo and cthomer.

question: where do we stand so far? do we have a league constitution? what came about Vic's experiment with the demo-league? what have we learned? (can we expect a rough first season or do we know enough about it so that we can expect not to have many problems, or should we just wait for another patch?) so i think we should do this first. once we've lumped eveything together we can see if there's a lot more work to be done, if we're halfway to starting the league or if we have enough information and procedures in place to start "tomorrow" if need be.

i'm open for copying and pasting another league's constitution (even if it's a baseball league like the FOBL'S or whathaveyou) and get that as our skeleton constitution. we can ratify and rework rules to make them more "football friendly" so that it's more in line with a football league. this way we're not reinventing the wheel. as the season goes on we'll see where changes need to be made, and where amendments are needed. i'm all for anything at this point that involved us using whatever progress we've made so far and just getting our feet wet.

thoughts?

[FBPro]

I'm ready to get going on this as well.

[Kodos]

I think any of the guys HA mentioned would be good choices for commish as well as revrew.

[albionmoonlight]

Once we find a commish (I like all of the names thrown out so far and would support any of them), maybe we should ask some of the people who are in up and running leagues what problems they had at first. We have the ability to learn from others' mistakes in this instance.

[MIJB#19]

I'm a troublemaker as well.

I'm really sorry for that, though I think I will get ready in January.

The reall issues are, as posted by Hell Atlantic, what does FOF4 multiplayer mean? What do owners have to do, in what frequence and what happens if one player is unavailable for (only) a few days or a week?

[cuervo72]

MIJB, I don't think owners have to do a whole lot, though a file may need to be sent every/every other day - possibly one for making roster adjustments (new signings) and one for game-time lineups/game plans. The first can many times be skipped, but could be useful for those grappling with key injuries. The second may very well carry over from week to week. I haven't looked at all the commish functions to know if an export is needed from every player or not, but I'd assume that a team might be ok if a few of them were missed.

As for JT4, I noted his absence a while ago. What we might wish to do is to at some point (when we've decided on a commish) mandate that every team send out an initial export file, and anyone who cannot do so or arrange for someone else to do so (cases like Blackadar for instance) will be booted. Harsh, but it's a thought. Of course, before such a step is meaningful we really should have the teams/cities nailed down and the city file modified accordingly. I know many of us have been in favor of "equalizing" the city playing field, but we've not reached a consensus on that yet (there have been reservations to this). Of course, to get this nailed down we need participation from everyone

Before my vacation I was working on a constitution, again ripped off from FOBL, but I haven't worked through it all yet. I'll post a link when I get caught up and am more comfortable with it, but it will obviously need to be changed based on discussions we have here.

I hope to be pushing some of these issues here on a (near) daily basis, but I'm undecided on if I'd be willing to take the mantle as commish, though I'd consider it. I'd be behind cthomer and primelord in that capacity if they wanted to take that on, and there are others that if they were interested I'd endorse (much of the league, really).

[cuervo72]

Dola - I'm also not against borrowing portions of whatever the FOFL comes up with constitution-wise

[TRO]

Only problem with some of HA's recommendations is that IHOF was supposed to be a commish/non-owner league, yes?

Granted, you may have to rethink that if it means the death of the league...

[cuervo72]

I'm thinking we'll probably have to go with one of the owners to start with, unless someone steps forth or someone else is identified. Shouldn't be a big deal as long as we have someone trustworthy. Then maybe eventually we can either find another commish, or the commish would even opt out of their team and evolve into just a commish role. We'll have to see.

[Celeval]

The CFBL is bad enough... I think my fiancee would kill me if I took on commishing another league.

But I'm raring to go when we get someone..

[Samdari]

Originally posted by cuervo72
I'm thinking we'll probably have to go with one of the owners to start with, unless someone steps forth or someone else is identified. Shouldn't be a big deal as long as we have someone trustworthy. Then maybe eventually we can either find another commish, or the commish would even opt out of their team and evolve into just a commish role. We'll have to see.

I have never been a big fan of the non-owner commish idea. While it sounds nice to have someone in charge with no stake in the results, the downside is you end up with someone in charge who has no stake in the league. With RL time commitments holding us all back from full time FOF play, it is harder to remain committed when one has no such stake.

So, I would highly recommend we look within when choosing a commish. I think both cthomer and cuervo have expended the most effort in trying to get this league going, so they are the most natural choices. As forum mod/participant gatherer, I would nominate SkyDog, if I did not think such an act would get me banned.

What most members of this league seem to be saying is that they want someone to step forward and take charge. I hope that someone from the above list will simply do so. While it seems at first glance that a thread entitled "I am the new commish." would seem forward, I think one would be appreciated by this crowd.

[Anthony]

frankly, i think we should concentrate on finding the best person for the job, owner in the league or not. since the best candidates we can come up with seem to already have a team in the league our next commish will most likely if not most certainly will come from within the IHOF.

the 3 guys we have in mind are great, but by all means - if your name wasn't mentioned and you think you can quickly organize things (all the while still getting help from guys like ceurvo and cthomer) please throw your name out into the ring.

dutch boy - i wouldn't worry about not having the game right now. as it stands we realistically and optimistically won't be up and officially running until late January anyway. filling in the last few spots in the league is not on our list of priorities - we have a big enough waiting list that any available and interested prospective owners will be able to plug and play. so you have some time, even then if the league had to start i'm sure we'd be able to bump you up to first on the waiting list. no worries.

can we now lump all the questions and issues we have and try to address them? i'll start with what i think are the consensus relevant issues:

1. "equalizing the playing field": pro's and con's. is this an issue at all or in the attempt at realism should some cities have an ingrown advantage from the start? (this is your chance to reiterate if you're for or against, let's just very briefly go over if this is something we need to worry about and decide if this is an important issue at all).

2. potential online league problems: i know there's a thread in the general discussion forum detailing a problem with having to install a 2nd or 3rd license on your HD to be able to play in both a solo and multi-player league without having the cities overwritten (if i understood correctly)....potential gamebreaking problem or what?

3. the test-league project that Vegas Vic worked on: did we uncover any big problems? what did we learn for those in the league that took part in it?

4. if we had to hypothetically start the league tomorrow - what would stop us from being successful (let's pretend we magically got a commish and constitution overnite), that is, game-wise is there any known issues that would make starting the league a bad decision or are we ready to go once we get a 1.) commish, 2.) constitution and 3.) website.

anymore issues i missed please continue the list. please restrict this to "important issues preventing us from playing". minor issues are things our commish can decide if we need be worried about. what i'm trying to do is get everyone to identify what needs to be focused on so that we get it resolved, that way the new commish can start off being more in an administrative role (exporting and importing league files) rather than being a problem solver.

[Vince]

Just to get caught up -

I'm ready to go right away...just got back to school yesterday from vacation at home, so I now have constant internet access again.

I am all for any of the current nominees to be commish, as well as Dutch. And as for HA's questions above...

1) 'Equalizing the Playing Field'
Why don't we talk to someone in one of the leagues that is already up and running about how they have handled this in their league and how it is affecting them? If there's no inherent problems with it, I'd think a straight up poll on the question here in the forum would be the best way to handle this.

2) 'Multiple Licenses for Solo and League Play'
I believe as long as you back up your city names file, and save it elsewhere on your hard drive, you can swap that file with a modified file, and in that manner switch between dynasties without a problem. It would require a cut and paste of two folders to change leagues, much better than wasting a license.

3) 'Test League'
I don't think we learned much, really. Last I checked, we had gotten through the pre-season, but that's about it. I'd propose we get a small group of people (say 3...commish, two teams...maybe more would be necessary) to buzz through another test league really quick to see what's necessary during the off-season and to answer any questions we might have regarding owner absence during that point in the season. If there aren't too many people involved, I can't see it taking more than an hour or two to do it one night if they can hook up on AIM or some other chat method. However, to give us direction, we should set out the goals of this group before hand, i.e. - 'What happens if an owner neglects to send in a lineup during one stage?' This way we know exactly what we're looking for, and can report on it directly.

4) 'Important Issues Preventing Us From Playing'
Off the top of my head, I know of two leagues that are already running that haven't had any major problems...to my knowledge, I don't think there are any major problems facing us, other than Commish, Constitution and Website.

[Vince]

Dola - Ok, after browsing through the old test-league thread, I found that we didn't find much out.

TRO pointed out a flaw about FA's signing with whichever team has a lower ID number, so we might have to find a workaround in the constitution about that. I'm going to reiterate that we should set out another test league, with goals in mind, to figure out what we need to have in our constitution about this game.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally posted by Vince
Dola - Ok, after browsing through the old test-league thread, I found that we didn't find much out.

TRO pointed out a flaw about FA's signing with whichever team has a lower ID number, so we might have to find a workaround in the constitution about that. I'm going to reiterate that we should set out another test league, with goals in mind, to figure out what we need to have in our constitution about this game.

In the CFL we decided to let the computer keep up with free agents and let teams with a higher index have a slight advantage. Jim has said he would try to get a fix for it.

[Vince]

Originally posted by GoldenEagle
In the CFL we decided to let the computer keep up with free agents and let teams with a higher index have a slight advantage. Jim has said he would try to get a fix for it.

Color me stupid, but I don't understand what you're trying to say here. The computer keeps up with free agents? Not sure how you'd do this without giving the higher index a nearly insurmountable advantage.

[Chief Rum]

I think before we do anything else, we need to identify who that commish will be. So I would ask that any of the three names prominently mentioned (cuervo, cthomer, and there was a third, I forget who), step forth and say whether or not they would be interested int he commish position. Once we know who's interested, we can work to whittle down the choices to a final pick. This would be open for anyone else not mentioned who feels they can get it going,t oo, as HA mentioned. We might also put a post on the FOFC board asking if anyone is interested int he position. Or we migth ask someone from the CFL, who might be inclined to do it, since they already have experience with multiplayer (even as a player that is valuable), and they also already have something multiplayer related they are into, and so may be less inclined to need to have a team in our league to maintain interest.

CR

[Alf]

As part of an efficient online FBPro league, I can say that we need 3 things

- a dedicated commish (no worries if he is part of the league)
- detailed rules (including game plans authorized, etc...)
- a weekly schedule on ownership actions (FA offers, roster moves, game plans, etc...)

cuervo had already started a great job on a "constitution", I'd rather go with a "league rules", but that's just a naming convention issue.

As for city location => I don't care if I play in a small market.

[Alf]

Dola - I am willing to be part of a real test league.

[cuervo72]

Here's a link to what I had come up with before I went on vacation, which is basically just a modification of the FOBL constitution:

http://cuervo72.majecc.net/IHOF-Constitution.html

Now, that is there for a reference. What we may wish to do is devote separate threads for each section to kick around each issue. Note that I hadn't gotten around to including anything about gameplay/owner submissions, which will really be what needs to be pinned down.

[albionmoonlight]

Thanks cuervo. We needed a base from which to start.

To answer HA's first question--I am still for starting all of our cities with the same demographics and then letting the league progress from there with no more city manipulation.

I also think that it would be good to have a Constitution for important issues (need 2/3 majority to change) and having by-laws for lesser issues (need simple majority to change).

I am also in favor of two stage imports a week. I do not want to commit to doing more, but less would make the league drag on too long, IMO.

[Subby]

I don't want a non-owner being commish for the reasons Samdari outlined.

I also think that we should consider a preference draft as a way of getting things up and running as quickly as possible.

Right now the biggest issue facing on-line FOF leagues is the way the game handles free agents - teams with a lower team number have a decided advantage here.

However, this is NOT a game breaker...more an inconvenience at the moment.

Here are the 5 basic issues that we need to iron out before we start simming:

1) Inflation Setting
2) Injury Setting
3) Player Universe
4) Draft Type
5) Finalization of team names and cities

Whomever is commish should probably take a look at the FOFL forums (on the FOBL boards) to get an idea of some of the startup issues...

[Vince]

I thought we had already ironed out that we were going with a fictional universe (created by one of the utilities), a preference draft, and the fictional cities that we discussed in the city thread. If that's the case, we still need to figure out

1) Inflation Setting
2) Injury Setting

For in-game issues. Other than that, we need -

1) A Commish
2) A Sim Schedule
3) A ratified Constitution (League Rules, whatever you want to call them)

I think Chief Rum is on to something...we need to get the Commish nailed down before we move forward.

[Buzzbee]

Having tested software for a living for several years, I will spearhead the testing effort. I was part of the original test, but it lost steam when Vegas Vic's PC died.

I will try to develop some specific scenarios/situations that we want to test out.

If anyone has any thoughts about what might need to be tested/discovered feel free to suggest them and I will incorporate them.

Also, any and all volunteers to participate will be appreciated. Quite honestly I think that the more we have involved in the test phase, the better the results. Plus it will give us some practice and get some momentum going.

[FBPro]

Well, from my game play experience I'd say an injury setting of no higher than 100 maybe 75-80. I play at the 100 level and at times I am completely hammered by injuries. I think that we want "some" but don't want to have to be chasing injuries around all year. I recommend 80.

This is based on a current 29 season career...FYI.

[Fido]

I know I'm not a part of the league, so please forgive me if I am intruding. I just wanted to say that if you guys get really desperate, I'd be willing to do all I can to hepl you through this. I know that I am not a big member of this community post wise, but I do think I could be beneficial. I also could not say that I would be completely dedicated to the league, but I woudl be dedicated to my utilities and woudl be using the league to showcase them, so dedicatin to the league woudl come from that.

Hey - like I said its if you get REALLY desperate

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Samdari
So, I would highly recommend we look within when choosing a commish. I think both cthomer and cuervo have expended the most effort in trying to get this league going, so they are the most natural choices. As forum mod/participant gatherer, I would nominate SkyDog, if I did not think such an act would get me banned.

I don't mind if we choose from within, but I'll tell you right now that I am not willing to take that role on. I am stretching the limits of my availability as it is in moderating.

[mckerney]

Whatever we do, we definitely should use Fido's HTML utility. Example of it from the CFL:

http://fidosoft.com/FOF/Hosted/FOFReporter/CFL/

I do think that we need an owner to step up and be commish. I don't think I could do it right now, though to get the league started at least it should be an owner.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally posted by Vince
Color me stupid, but I don't understand what you're trying to say here. The computer keeps up with free agents? Not sure how you'd do this without giving the higher index a nearly insurmountable advantage.

The teams with the higher index do have an advantage, but not a big one. When it comes to the off season, I know we are going to do some reconsidering. But in season, we have decided to do this. (I think it may not even affect the offseason)

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
I think before we do anything else, we need to identify who that commish will be. So I would ask that any of the three names prominently mentioned (cuervo, cthomer, and there was a third, I forget who), step forth and say whether or not they would be interested int he commish position. Once we know who's interested, we can work to whittle down the choices to a final pick. This would be open for anyone else not mentioned who feels they can get it going,t oo, as HA mentioned. We might also put a post on the FOFC board asking if anyone is interested int he position.

Agreed. Ping time. Dutch has already expressed his interest. I'll post a thread at the main board, and we'll get a list of candidates, and then we'll vote.

--Ben

[Samdari]

I really wish you had not posted that thread on the main board Ben. I really think it needs to be an owner. In fact, despite my extreme reluctance, I would do it before I'll see another non-owner be commish.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Samdari
I really wish you had not posted that thread on the main board Ben. I really think it needs to be an owner. In fact, despite my extreme reluctance, I would do it before I'll see another non-owner be commish.

We can vote on that. We'll have multiple candidates. Just because you wish that it needs to be an owner doesn't mean everyone will feel that way. I'd imagine that we'll end up with an owner or two and a non-owner or two, and then we'll decide.

[Samdari]

So, we'll get a non-owner, he'll have other things to do, and decide that running this league without participating in it feels like work, and we'll be left hanging again? That makes a lot of sense.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Samdari
So, we'll get a non-owner, he'll have other things to do, and decide that running this league without participating in it feels like work, and we'll be left hanging again? That makes a lot of sense.

Who said we'll get a non-owner??? When we vote, make your case to the whole league. I personally would prefer someone who is an owner, but I don't want my personal desires to taint the applicant pool. This is a league decision, not yours or mine.

[albionmoonlight]

It's such a happy day that I agree with both of you. I would like an owner as well, but think that it is the league choice.

Also--I think that there is no harm in seeing who is interested--some non-owner application may blow us away.

[Alf]

I should have DSL in February-March and would be a candidate then. You guys can check how I manage the Hattrick FOFC CUP 5 to see how I handle things.

[Samdari]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Who said we'll get a non-owner??? When we vote, make your case to the whole league. I personally would prefer someone who is an owner, but I don't want my personal desires to taint the applicant pool. This is a league decision, not yours or mine.

This being a decision made by the whole league sounds greatm, I would love it to be so. However, it has become apparent that a only a few of the owners in the league are willing to expend effort (including the simple effort of reading this board and expressing opinions) towards getting this league started. The ones who have denied such a willingness, either expressly or through their inaction, will have to live with the decisions of those who are willing.

As for the "applicant pool" being tainted by personal desires, since when did anyone decide there was going to be an applicant pool?

I think before we go down that road, we should get explicit answers from the two candidates mentioned most often: cuervo and cthomer. Are either of you interested in being commissioner of this league?

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Samdari

I think before we go down that road, we should get explicit answers from the two candidates mentioned most often: cuervo and cthomer. Are either of you interested in being commissioner of this league?

I'm still mulling this over, to be honest. Weighing the issues of will I have personal time to do it, and if so will that take away from time that I spend involved in other endeavours.

Most of this is from the standpoint of running the sims, etc. I've no real experience participating in on-line leagues much less running them. And as Alf points out, a high-speed connection would be nice for a commish, but I am stuck with dial-up. And while I have experience with maintaining and designing sites, I do *not* know the ins and outs of finding the space, paying for it, etc.

I definitely have a strong interest in the discussions surrounding the league, and in establishing a constitution and getting things up and running. It's what comes after that that I'd be most concerned about.

[Sloan]

Originally posted by cuervo72
And as Alf points out, a high-speed connection would be nice for a commish, but I am stuck with dial-up.

FYI, we are in week 6 in the eNFL and our league file is 2.11 MB zipped up right now. We save all box scores and game logs.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by Samdari
I think before we go down that road, we should get explicit answers from the two candidates mentioned most often: cuervo and cthomer. Are either of you interested in being commissioner of this league?

I've been on the fence on submitting my name for offical consideration for 2 days now. I think I'd probably do a very good job, but I can't say for certain since I've in no way checked out how the multiplayer process works in FOF2004.

My biggest concern is trying to determine just how painful collecting 32 files twice a week would be.

Frankly, I'd rather have someone else do it. But if I do officially decide to make myself a candidate, you won't need to worry about me following up with it.

[edit/addition]

Also, I do have a cable modem and plenty of webspace to host all league files. I could host a website as long as we can keep it to a reasonable size (60 megs or so....).

[Samdari]

Well, C&C, I have been considering throwing my hat in the ring if no other owner steps forward. I shared your concerns, and had an idea in mind. Does "commissioner" necesarily have to mean "the guy who runs the game"? What we need most right now is someone to lead/organize/kick a little ass. Can there not be two offices, "Commissioner" and "Game Runner"? The Commissioner could prod the league forward and be the decision maker that the majority seems to want. The game runner would start the league on his machine, collect the files, run the stages and send the exports by the appropriate method. Possibly a third position would be that of webmaster, who would maintain any web site. All of those functions together do represent an intimidating package, so I think breaking them up makes some sense.

As for web space, I have said in the past that I have 10MB already paid for and unused. That seems to be inadequate total space, especially if the distribution method is for the website. That file size seems scary.

[cuervo72]

Actually no, it doesn't. Borrowing from FOBL's setup, the Commissioner basically has the power to delagate things to others, notably the (in this case) conference presidents. So yes, really it is possible to have a commissioner as a "guiding force" and others who carry out much of the work.

edit: at least that's how I was starting to frame it in the constitution

[MIJB#19]

Originally posted by Sloan
FYI, we are in week 6 in the eNFL and our league file is 2.11 MB zipped up right now. We save all box scores and game logs.

Well, I for one would ask to not save the two for league purpose then.

[FBPro]

Originally posted by Sloan
FYI, we are in week 6 in the eNFL and our league file is 2.11 MB zipped up right now. We save all box scores and game logs.

Is it possible to save these or atleast zip them in two different files? I would like to be able to see the details but no one should be forced to d/l a huge file that size unless they wanted to.

[cuervo72]

Yes, I would imagine you would only include the box scores and game logs that you generated since the last sim. You could keep a repository somewhere, if folks missed some of them. I had thought the game files themselves zipped down pretty tidily, but maybe they grow faster than I'd thought.