PING: EVERYONE (Commissioner Vote)

[Vince]

Ok, in an effort to get some things moving...I suggested a group for the governance of the league in the 'Where do we go from here?' thread. I think it would work well, and a few others have voiced support. I want to make sure everyone is down with what we are doing. First off, here's the constitution that cuervo72 has adopted/modified from the FOBL, IHOF Constitution. The applicable section is under 'II. Governance.' We can modify the section a bit if necessary, and if you have any ideas, don't hesitate to speak up.

Anyhow, thinking that a solid commissioner is one of the main things we need to get started, I suggested the following setup -

Commissioner - Dutch
AFC President - cthomer5000
NFC President - cuervo72

Dutch has stepped up to the plate, and would provide a strong hand to move us along right from the get go. On top of that, cthomer and cuervo have done a ton of work already to try to get this thing off the ground, and for those that are worried about having a non-owner commish, we can dilute some of Dutch's responsibilities to cthomer and cuervo, who definitely have a stake in the league.

Vote yea or nay on whether or not this setup can work for you.

[Anthony]

i voted "yea". good luck guys, i really think the league is in good hands. if you need anything that would make this league kickoff sooner and without a hitch, send me a PM.

[Ben E Lou]

"Yea" vote here. Let's get this party started.

[Vince]

Hey, if you do have a problem (ie, you voted Nay), please let us know why...I'm all for keeping everyone happy here.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Vince

Hey, if you do have a problem (ie, you voted Nay), please let us know why...I'm all for keeping everyone happy here.

I'll check and see if it is an IHOF member...

[Ben E Lou]

It was.

[RPI-Fan]

This might not be the right thread for this, but is there way to add the option to view the results without voting?

Or am I missing something?

[Anthony]

i think "null-vote" or something to that effect is an option on some message board polls. you basically vote a "non-vote" and see the results, but you can never vote yes or no after that.

[Celeval]

If you log out and view the thread, you can see the results.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

This might not be the right thread for this, but is there way to add the option to view the results without voting?

Or am I missing something?

It's probably better not to have it anyway. that way the early poll results can't taint the final outcome.

[cthomer5000]

dola. I would also like to hear from those who vote no. They might have some legitimate concern in mind that we haven't addressed, so any feedback would be a positive.

[Buzzbee]

I voted NAY, for now. This vote seems a little premature. We have the rough workings of a constitution, but haven't ratified it yet. We have other people who have expressed an interest in being commish (VPI-97 and Fido are two that come to mind). It seems to me that before we vote on a commish/structure, we should discuss said candidates and determine who will be the best fit for our league.

I want to know what type of style the future commish has. Is he going to be dictatorial and rule with an iron fist? Is he going to be lenient and forgiving? Is he going to make decisions with no room for recourse or appeal, or will he bend at the first outcry?

How will the future commish handle disputes? I can see trades being an area where a commish will play a big role. Will the philosophy be to let trades ride until someone pitches a fit? Or will trades require justification as to why it is a good trade for each owner? Or will trades be nipped in the bud because the commish thinks they are lopsided?

Before I vote for a commish, or in this case a whole "Board of Governors" I want more information and more choices.

NOTE: I vote NAY now, reserving the right to change my vote to YEA at a later time with a post in this thread.

[Buzzbee]

Dola - I'm not neccesarily against this trio, I just think it is a little quick on the trigger, just for the sake of getting things going.

[cuervo72]

I'm going to have to reread Dutch's "ultimatums" before I vote on this, especially with other parties interested (having a commish who makes his own utilities has a certain appeal) But I'd have no problem assuming a conference president role.

[Flasch186]

I hope that youre not creating an albatross by dividing powers so. Im rooting for you guys as you will be the premiere league but I'm wondering if having power in one person's benevolent hands isn't a better option. Just an outsider's opinion....no offense intended.

[cuervo72]

It wouldn't be a division of power, really. The commish would have authority over just about everything, within the confines of the constitution. The conference presidents would confer with the commish on some issues, and would do some of the dirty work for the commish. Which is probably why finding a good, committed commish is important. And why the league constitution is important.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

I voted NAY, for now. This vote seems a little premature. We have the rough workings of a constitution, but haven't ratified it yet. We have other people who have expressed an interest in being commish (VPI-97 and Fido are two that come to mind). It seems to me that before we vote on a commish/structure, we should discuss said candidates and determine who will be the best fit for our league.

i did a quick search and i haven't seen Fido nor VPI throw their names into consideration anywhere. if they want to step up and formally announce their candidacy, i think we should do a do-over on the poll in the interest of giving everyone a fair shot. but i voted for Dutch only cuz he's an established poster who has created some add-ons himself and is the only one to date to formally announce himself as a candidate for commish.

maybe it'd be best to do one last round-up for candidates - announce if you want to be a commish or forever hold your peace? i don't necessarily want to keep taking a step back something new introduces itself. it finally feels like we're on the verge of making some significant progress in the league. we're starting to generate that "buzz" again and i see the momentum increasing.

[cuervo72]

I do recall having seen Fido and VPI throwing their hats into the ring, so it is not as if Dutch is the only option that has been thrown out there.

I think the election of a commissioner might need to be less of a yes/no vote, and more an option a/option b/..../option n type vote. Unless the vote passes easily. (have we even established what a passing vote in this setup would be? 1/2? 2/3?)

[Vince]

I honestly don't remember hearing VPI make his say. I know Fido said something about wanting to be commish, but Dutch laid out sure-fire rules and seemed to be 'serious' about the whole thing. Not that I think that Fido would be less sure...I just want things to get going. And Dutch seemed to be the one to get things on their way. I just want to get things started, and Dutch was very much on top of things, so I saw him as the best candidate. Like I said, if anyone has serious issues with him being commish, let us know. The thing is, he set out how he was going to do it very well in his thread, so check it out before you vote him down.

[MIJB#19]

Did you know the Dutch say "nay" and write it as "nee"?
That way, saying "nay" to Dutch makes a lot more sense.

Actually, I voted "Yea", but, in my opinion, the word/name combo was to good to not mention it.

[Samdari]

This vote is way premature. Having a vote with only one candidate because one owner liked the way he proposed doing things is not a good way to go about this.

[Blackadar]

Yea!

[Fido]

Sorry to but in again, but you did bring my name up and that caught my attemtion.

I did thown my name in at one point, but am glad that it god missed. I was meerely trying to help out if nobody else stepped up. Since I made that statement two more qualified people have stepped up, and that is probably best for you guys. I really don't think that I would be qualified to be a comish here. There are way too many FOFC "legends" that I would not want to piss off with any decisions.

AS for my utility writing skills - a vote for Dutch of VPI will not affect that. I am looking for a league (any league) to bring my "talents" to to try to make it the most impressive league site going (in any game), and have started a discussion with dutch on this very subject (and I woudl try to start one with whomever you elect). So pending league approval, you would have mye available to write any utilities that any of you could think up.

Originally Posted by Celeval

If you log out and view the thread, you can see the results.

Also, if you switch back to the default theme, there is a view results link on the far right (its there on sideline, but not visible)

[Darkiller]

voted YES

[Subby]

I voted yes...primarily because I just want to get this zeppelin off the ground.

[Buzzbee]

For those who care (which seems like not very many) here is the thread where VPI-97 threw his hat in the ring.

SkyDog's open call for a commish in the General Discussion area

And for those to lazy to click the link, here is the hat:

Originally Posted by VPI97

Well, I have 6 years experience in being a commish of an on-line league (EA's NBA Live series) and I have the urge to run a league again, but I've haven't spent anytime looking at FOF's mulitplayer stuff. I'll start doing research on the procedures, and if you guys are interested, just let me know...

I'm not pimping VPI, just want to make sure we explore all the alternatives.

[Buzzbee]

Originally Posted by Vince

I honestly don't remember hearing VPI make his say. I know Fido said something about wanting to be commish, but Dutch laid out sure-fire rules and seemed to be 'serious' about the whole thing. Not that I think that Fido would be less sure...I just want things to get going. And Dutch seemed to be the one to get things on their way. Ijust want to get things started, and Dutch was very much on top of things, so I saw him as the best candidate. Like I said, if anyone has serious issues with him being commish, let us know. The thing is, he set out how he was going to do it very well in his thread, so check it out before you vote him down.

I'd like to get things going as well, but don't feel that we all of a sudden need to rush things and be hasty. As far as voting him down, I'm not really voting down Dutch as Commish, just making a statement about how this seems a little premature.

The fact that Dutch laid out plans for when to sim is great. He took the bull by the horns and developed plans. Shows he has put some thought into it. I applaud him. Doesn't neccesarily mean he'll be a good commish, but certainly shows he is a do-er and not a talker. Add a mark on the plus side.

I'm sure I'm just pissin' in the wind since it seems most people are already for the Board of Governors as listed. Just wanted to be heard.

Note: Probably not a good way to start off my IHOF career. Pissin' off the soon to be commish. Oh well. I don't expect to do very well anyway.

[albionmoonlight]

I think that we need to ratify the Constitution before we decide on a Commish. If, however, a majority end up voting yea in this thread, I think that we should go with it and make ratifying the constitution our next priority.

[Alf]

With 2 more "Yea" votes, we will have an early majority and could move on !

[Fritz]

I think this is a big friggen mess

[Vince]

I agree on the mess part. It does seem to have stirred up some more interest in the league, but that's not necessarily a good thing.

It's tough because I don't think we can get a unanimous vote, so someone will inevitably be disappointed. So where do we go from here? Finish the constitution, then come back to this?

[Vince]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

I'd like to get things going as well, but don't feel that we all of a sudden need to rush things and be hasty. As far as voting him down, I'm not really voting down Dutch as Commish, just making a statement about how this seems a little premature.

Eh, poor choice of words on my part. I just meant that voters should check out his plan before voting period. My bad.

[Buzzbee]

Originally Posted by Vince

I agree on the mess part. It does seem to have stirred up some more interest in the league, but that's not necessarily a good thing.

It's tough because I don't think we can get a unanimous vote, so someone will inevitably be disappointed. So where do we go from here? Finish the constitution, then come back to this?

In regard to a unanimous vote, I don't expect, nor do I desire a unanimous vote. With 32 personalities involved, that'd be damn near impossible.

In my opinion, since VPI-97 is the only other person who has expressed interest (at least without the disclaimer of "if no one else wants to do it then I'd be willing"), I say we contact VPI-97 and see if he is still interested. If so, then I suggest we get "resumes" or "applications" from Dutch and VPI, discuss, and vote on a commish. If VPI is not interested, problem solved.

Also, I don't have a problem with going ahead and electing a commish before we have a league structure/rules/procedures/Constitution in place. A commish could help drive that process. We are GOING to have a commish no matter what. However, lumping in two league presidents when others haven't "really" been given the chance to throw their hat in or be nominated, and when we haven't "officially" determined that this is the structure that most want made it seem as if we were jumping the gun.

Oh, and Vince, I wasn't trying to undercut you, slam you, pick on you, or otherwise call you out. It simply seems like we have the cart before the horse by picking leaders, when we haven't even determined the leadership positions, at least not officially anyway. I think most here seem to go along with the general idea of a commish and two league presidents as the ruling body, myself included, but there may be those who are against it for valid reasons.

[Vince]

No worries Buzzbee, I know you're just trying to help, same as I am. Let's see if I can go get a hold of VPI.

[Buzzbee]

Originally Posted by Vince

No worries Buzzbee, I know you're just trying to help, same as I am. Let's see if I can go get a hold of VPI.

I saw that he was online and PM'd him, but no response yet. I'm guessing he's either drafting a concession speech, or developing a schedule and constitution to show he's serious.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

I saw that he was online and PM'd him, but no response yet. I'm guessing he's either drafting a concession speech, or developing a schedule and constitution to show he's serious.

The latter... but documenting my ideas has been subject to the interruptions caused by work It doesn't help that I need to prepare for a conference call with Singapore that occurs in a few hours. What I will do now is reaffirm my interest in becoming the commissioner of IHOF and post a brief summary of my "resume".

History: Ran the top NBA Live league on the web for nearly six years (10 seasons) before handing the reins over to a group of owners who have continued the league on their own. Owned a franchise for the first two seasons before stepping down and being commish only for the remainder of the time. Having experienced being a "commish/owner" and "commish-only", I firmly believe that a commish can be most effective if they do not have a stake in one of the teams...this eliminates any potential conflict of interest disputes and removes any subliminal concerns about one's team from the decision making process. A typical season was around six months with off-season delays depending on whether a new version of the game was coming out. My duties included:
- Receiving and processing the required weekly input from owners (roster adjustments / gameplan adjustments / transactions) and being "on-call" seven days a week for any questions and rules clarifications.
- Posting weekly league files at a set time each week and maintaining an online file archive.
- Housing the league website and keeping the content current.
- Approving any trades and resolving any disputes regarding transactions (FA pickups / broken trade promises)
- Maintaining a active roster of owners while interviewing potential owners for spots on the waiting list.
- Developing a suite of applications that assisted owners in various things

I'll get into more detail about my policies as commish in a little bit.

[Subby]

Please retract my "yes" vote. I am interested in hearing more from VPI...

[Dutch]

I've already stated I'm not interested in a popularity contest. So I have a problem with the application bit.

I am sorry however, I simply am not interested in a contest to see who wins, my intentions remain the same however, willing to be the commissioner as a favor to you all.

So I respectfully remove my offer.

What I now propose to you is that you hear VPI out like you have heard me out. If you like what you see, I would be the first to nominate VPI for the job and I can kick back and feel good knowing I helped kick-start the league.

I would like to remind you, however, that Fido would make an excellent addition to the supporting cast of IHOF. He has shown the desire. Don't forget that.

[Buccaneer]

Just like a true politician, I voted no because I want Dutch to go ahead and get in charge of getting things done. Because some of you tuckfoids wants to make it a big deal now and cause Dutch to remove his offer, we will live with the big friggen mess for now.

[cthomer5000]

A lot of people have written things to the effect of "we need a constitution first, then we can decide on a commish." Of course, when some of us sought input on exactly that thing about a month ago, we got next to nothing from most potential owners.

Personally, i think we need people in charge first. Then they can bang out a rough draft of a constitution, and bring it to the rest of the league for amendment or approval.

I think we need leadership in order to get the ball rolling.

[Buccaneer]

That was the reason for my symbolic vote. Just like with my President, I strongly prefer decisive leadership (for good or bad) than wishy-washy appeasement. Give Dutch the authority now to set things up and if you don't like his rules, either drop out or get enough votes to change.

[Senator]

Let's light this candle!

[Flasch186]

Like I said before in my earlier "outsider's" post.....(again no offense intended) but I agree with the person who said you need someone to take charge....anyone. Dictatorial in a way to get the ball rolling. Imagine what it will be like when everyone has a say in everything. I dunno, you guys are going to be the benchmark that we other leagues / commishes look up to in setting rules, frameworks, etc. So I want you guys to get rolling. As we move at our snails pace over in the USFL it shouldnt take long at all for you guys to pass us by and start blazing trails. I say get a site up and you'll reinvigorate everyone who is watching, like me.

[VPI97]

First off - Dutch, selecting a commish shouldn't be a popularity contest. A commissioner needs to provide stability, enforce rules, and keep things running smoothly for the league as a whole. There's nothing in the job description about making friends because if you try to play nice with everyone, nothing will get done. I hope you don't feel like I was stepping on your toes, though...I had expressed my interest in the thread on the main board and had a few PM's today asking me to post in this forum.

Anyway, I don't know how this is going to pan out but the IHOF is a league that needs a commissioner...and I am a commish in search of a league. My style is simple; I expect commitment, punctuality, and involvement from those involved in the league. Not only is it my job to meet deadlines, it would also be my responsibility to poke, prod, and help the 32 owners meet the same deadlines. No easy task. As I said above, I don't think the commish's role is to try and make as many friends as possible. If someone is late with a file, fine...just make sure I get notified that you'll be a few hours late. You're going to be out of town for a while? Let me know ahead of time and we'll work out the details. But get into a habit of chronic tardiness? Vanish for a week or two? That's where the commish has to put their foot down and get the franchise back on track for the good of the league. I say this at the top because if you guys are expecting a laid back commish, that's not me.

Schedule
When it comes to the league schedule, I took a look at the schedule Dutch came up with and agree with most of it. The changes I would make would be:
- Instead of Wednesday and Sunday exports, I would go with Thursday and Sunday exports. The difference being that the amount of free time one has on the weekends is usually greater than that of weekdays...the Fri/Sat/Sun period would be the same as the Mon/Tue/Wed/Thur period in terms of having the time available to plan for your next game.
- I would keep the same schedule (two game weeks) through the playoffs instead of stretching the postseason out. Why? Because you're going to have 20 guys not involved in the playoffs and a four-week layoff isn't conducive to maintaining the interest level.
- Like Dutch proposed, I would run the FA period daily, but I would conduct the draft over a two day period. Rounds 1-3 one day; 4-7 the next. All rounds would be live with a provision for an owner to submit a scripted list of players that they want with instructions for their picks. If you say you want to take the highest player on your list, so be it. If you want the highest WR except if xx is available, so be it. If you want to have 42 provisions in you list, so be it. If it's in English, I'll decipher it. For the live portion, I'd use either a messenger program with group capabilities, a lengthy forum post, and a custom chat room...whatever. The key isn't the method..it's getting picks in and displaying those picks where owners can see them with little delay.

Everything else Dutch posted looks like it's one the money. It's a good schedule. All in all, I think that a season would last 14 weeks...that's good for nearly four seasons per calendar year. Seems like a good pace for this type of league.

Website
As it stands, I plan on taking advantage of Fido's offer to construct our initial website. As some of you may remember, I put out a utility a few years ago that was a precursor to Jim's inclusion of the almanac to FOF 2004. If you used it, you'll know how much stats and history mean to me. I plan on a robust site that features everything from a lengthy backlog of boxscores to detailed individual player cards to league leaders of every category imaginable. I'd like to run everything off a web database (as I did with my previous league), but until the coding for that can be done, I think Fido's generator will be overly sufficient in providing the content owners need to feel the immersion factor.

Rules & Enforcement
I haven't seen a charter for the league, so I'm not sure what has been decided yet, but once we have the initial set of rules I would think the commish would have the authority to make any minor change with nothing more than a notice and response to any questions before that change be made. Any major rules changes would require two-thirds approval from the owners.
Trade approvals will be handled by the commish. It's been my policy to give each transaction a brief glance and approve it unless it's obviously unfair. It's not my job to run any team, so if someone wants to make a bad trade, I don't feel it's the commish's place to deny it and effectively take the team out of the owner’s hands. But obvious attempts at shifting talent over to a friend will be met with a denial and a warning. Try it twice and we'll find a new owner. There's enough to do without having to monitor an individual who repeatedly tries to circumvent the rules.
Every trade will have a week long period where other owners have the right to question the fairness of a trade...if such a challenge is made, it would be the participants' duty to explain the trade from their eyes. If you have a realistic reason then I have no problem with it. After all, Ditka traded his entire draft away...there's realism for you.

Enforcement of the rules would be strict but fair. Any attempt to cheat leads to immediate dismissal. Chronic tardiness receives a warning, possible loss of a draft pick, and ultimately removal from the league. It's my belief that 31 committed owners don't appreciate having to wait for the 32nd. Any other violations (whatever they may be) would be dealt with in a similar fashion. My concern is for the league's health, not for the rehabilitation of a bad owner.


That’s what I have to say for now…it's late. If I missed something, ask me about it and I’ll answer tomorrow. Right now, I'm going to bed.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by VPI97

I would conduct the draft over a two day period. Rounds 1-3 one day; 4-7 the next. All rounds would be live with a provision for an owner to submit a scripted list of players that they want with instructions for their picks. If you say you want to take the highest player on your list, so be it. If you want the highest WR except if xx is available, so be it. If you want to have 42 provisions in you list, so be it.

This sounds all well and good in theory VPI, but do you know this is possible? The commish making draft picks for owners that is? I strongly suspect that with coach and FA offers, as well as drafts, the only way to get players/coaches onto teams is via exports from individual owners. This needs to be tested before we consider it.

[Buzzbee]

I'm disappointed that Dutch has chosen to withdraw his name for consideration, and sincerely hope he reconsiders. I don't see this as a popularity contest, but as a decision about entrusting a league to someone.

I honestly didn't anticipate that simply having another horse in the race would be enough to cause Dutch to withdraw, and as mentioned, I hope he reconsiders. I'm sure that had we followed course, Dutch would have been (and can still be) a very good commish.

If I have single-handedly killed any momentum for this league, I apologize to the other owners. It was not my intention. My concern was that we were handing over the keys to the kingdom for the sake of expediency, which isn't necessarily bad, but may not be good either. Again, my apologies.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Personally, i think we need people in charge first. Then they can bang out a rough draft of a constitution, and bring it to the rest of the league for amendment or approval.

As per usual, I agree with cthomer...

[Celeval]

Dutch & VPI - you guys both sound great, I'm behind either of you.

Just wanted to get on record again.

Kevin

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Samdari

This sounds all well and good in theory VPI, but do you know this is possible? The commish making draft picks for owners that is? I strongly suspect that with coach and FA offers, as well as drafts, the only way to get players/coaches onto teams is via exports from individual owners. This needs to be tested before we consider it.

The commish needs to set the standards for each round, and people have to stick by them. Of course the preference is to make the selections yourself, but if you can't for whatever reason leave a list of players and/or instructions and that should be fine. If no list is given, then the commish lets the scout pick, and the player has to deal with it.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

I'm disappointed that Dutch has chosen to withdraw his name for consideration, and sincerely hope he reconsiders. I don't see this as a popularity contest, but as a decision about entrusting a league to someone.

I honestly didn't anticipate that simply having another horse in the race would be enough to cause Dutch to withdraw, and as mentioned, I hope he reconsiders. I'm sure that had we followed course, Dutch would have been (and can still be) a very good commish.

If I have single-handedly killed any momentum for this league, I apologize to the other owners. It was not my intention. My concern was that we were handing over the keys to the kingdom for the sake of expediency, which isn't necessarily bad, but may not be good either. Again, my apologies.

Buzzbee, I don't think you should feel like you single-handedly killed things, I had also expressed reservations. But my reservations were not about this being a popularity contest, not that at all. It is about finding a commishioner style that I think will fit. It was all the "dictator" talk, even if it was in jest, that got me a little. I think the commish has a large hand in the rules, but if these rules are non-negotionable, what if one of them doesn't suit the league? That was just what I was contemplating. But I do believe what needs to be done is to get a commish, and the commish with input and discussion from the 32 owners needs to adjust the set of rules that he has laid out and those rules are then made into a constitution.

But take the schedule for instance. Say the commish sets in stone that the amateur draft is automated (now, I realize this probably wasn't set in stone, but just for the sake of argument). That right there might well cause 1/3 of the owner base to jump ship. We obviously wouldn't want that, would we? No, of course not. So any rules that are set need to be addressed in some way before they become official. Once they do become official, then the commish rules as he sees fit within the confines of the rules, and with very little input from the owners.

FWIW, I'm sure both Dutch and VPI would make very good commissioners, its just a question of if their schedules and constraints match up with those of the league.