OT: Poker, Thumbs-up for me

[thealmighty]

For all you online tournament poker players here, I made the final table in a mixed game tournament on PokerPages. Ended at #4. Best finish ever for me, especially for a mixed game format (hold 'em, 7 stud, omaha hi/low).

I feel good, umph, dadadadadadada
I knew that I would now.

May never do it again, but now, at least, I've been there.

[sabotai]

I've been playing like crap lately....don't really know what is up with me but I've lost a lot more than I've won recently.

[MJ4H]

Finished 19th out of 1000 in last night's stars freeroll. Flopped a set of sixes and the guy rivered a flush on me. Still fun.

[QuikSand]

I've hit a really nice rhythm lately on PartyPoker, and have had very strong sessions in my last four sittings playing two tables of $2/$4 hold em. I had about two weeks off from poker completely (gasp) and had a chance to do some reading, and make some adjustments in my play. For low-level limit games, I am now playing a narrow range of hands, reducing my adjustments based on table position, and playing much more aggressively when I make a strong hand. So far, very good results.

I had been playing so much no-limit and tournament play that my limit game had drifted a bit - but I feel better now. (Now I have to try to keep my tournament game intact for Thursday night)

[Logan]

Does anyone play Paradise Poker freerolls? I'm in their 4 pm and 2 am ones nearly every day.

[dixieflatline]

I've hit a really nice rhythm lately on PartyPoker, and have had very strong sessions in my last four sittings playing two tables of $2/$4 hold em. I had about two weeks off from poker completely (gasp) and had a chance to do some reading, and make some adjustments in my play. For low-level limit games, I am now playing a narrow range of hands, reducing my adjustments based on table position, and playing much more aggressively when I make a strong hand. So far, very good results.

I had been playing so much no-limit and tournament play that my limit game had drifted a bit - but I feel better now. (Now I have to try to keep my tournament game intact for Thursday night)

Two very different game limit and no limit. Do you think you are earning more with the $2/$4 tables than say $25 NL? Which book(s) were you reading during your time off? My girlfriend got me Hellmuth's book for Christmas and that was a pretty decent read with some helpful tips.

[MJ4H]

Hellmuth's book is widely considered to be atrocius.

[dixieflatline]

I didn't say it was great but there were a few tips in there(more for other games than hold 'em). And I find Phil funny and thus it was a decent read. Yes there are certainly better books out there to learn from and note that I didn't buy it for myself.

[QuikSand]

I, too, received Hellmuth's book as a gift... and completely agree with the "atrocious" label.

I spent a little time with several different books:

-Sklansky and Malmuth's Hold Em for Advanced Players, which I find a little hit or miss, but generally useful to re-read

-Lou Krieger's similarly-titled book, the name escapes me at the moment, but another excellent resource for polishing up

-And a pamphlet by Walt Fong called The Little Green Book of Hold 'Em that I purchased from Wilson Software



Really, the biggest adjustment that I think I have made is to significantly reduce the spread of hands that I had been willing to play in late position compared to early position. Many writers make this a fundamental precept of their game strategy, expanding the number of hands that they recommend playing in late position very widely.

I have basically adjusted to where I no longer play hands like A7 or QT even in late position... I'm just finding that I don't get a truly strong hand frequently enough to merit staying in with them. I'm still playing suited connectors and suited aces (for one bet) and am having a much more effective go of it with hands that do not lure one into calling with a potentially dominated hand.

I also eschew many of those marginal hands, regardless of position, because I prefer to play aggressively when I do play... and pairing up your ace when you hold a hand like A7 just doesn't lend itself to reraising and such, unless you have established a formidable reputation (very tough to do online). So, that's another reason why I've been staying away from those hands more than before.

Finally, I have found that sitting at one table for a couple of hours and playing a tight-superaggressive style seems to bring about more raises from other players (as they see it work for me), and these copycats really don't undertand how to properly attack with a good hand. That makes for some big backdoor pots when I can properly read them for less than they represent, especially when they are playing a big pocket pair against one or more overcards (a wonderfully common error by novice players).

[dixieflatline]

-And a pamphlet by Walt Fong called The Little Green Book of Hold 'Em that I purchased from Wilson Software

I don't have this one. How good is it?

That makes for some big backdoor pots when I can properly read them for less than they represent, especially when they are playing a big pocket pair against one or more overcards (a wonderfully common error by novice players).

yeah the last time I played a guy was playing KK and just wouldn't stop betting even after a second ace fell on the turn.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by dixieflatline

yeah the last time I played a guy was playing KK and just wouldn't stop betting even after a second ace fell on the turn.

I was tired damn it!!

(j/k, wasn't me. )

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by dixieflatline

I don't have this one. How good is it?



yeah the last time I played a guy was playing KK and just wouldn't stop betting even after a second ace fell on the turn.

Well actually with a 2nd ace dropping that reduces the # of aces that could be in player's hands so betting reasonably after the 2nd dropped isn't a bad play IMO. Betting after the 1st ace dropped IS tho.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Lou Krieger's similarly-titled book, the name escapes me at the moment, but another excellent resource for polishing up

Are you referring to Hold 'Em Excellence: From Beginner to Winner?

I think it's a terrific book. That book and/or Lee Jones' Winning Low-Limit Hold 'Em are both worth every penny. I would whole-heartedly recommend them anyone looking for a good first book (assuming you know the basics of the game... if not, Poker for Dummies is a good first book... then one of these second).

My game has improved considerably upon reading (and multiple re-reads).

[QuikSand]

Yes, corey - that's the one. I think Lou Krieger is about as good a pure writer as there is in the field, and his advice is generally pretty solid. He also co-wrote the Dummies book, which serves its niche pretty well, too, I agree.

I also got a lot out of Lee Jones's book, but I have drifted away from his concepts for the most part, in my online play at least.

[dixieflatline]

I was tired damn it!!

(j/k, wasn't me. )

Coke up the nose after reading that one. I also didn't picture you as a 60 yr. old guy with a hairpiece!

Well actually with a 2nd ace dropping that reduces the # of aces that could be in player's hands so betting reasonably after the 2nd dropped isn't a bad play IMO. Betting after the 1st ace dropped IS tho.

Your right about the odds but at low limit tables a lot of players play any Ax so you have to be worried at least. It really wouldn't have mattered because I had hit two pair on the flop and wasn't going anywhere.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by dixieflatline

Coke up the nose after reading that one. I also didn't picture you as a 60 yr. old guy with a hairpiece!



Your right about the odds but at low limit tables a lot of players play any Ax so you have to be worried at least. It really wouldn't have mattered because I had hit two pair on the flop and wasn't going anywhere.

yeah, if someone had bet big after the 1st ace dropped I prob would have folded, def checked to that point.

[QuikSand]

Here is a link for Walt Fong's book, mentioned above.

It's not a lengthy treatise, just a simple guide from a long time proposition player. What i found so useful about it is that his philosophy meshes very, very well with my own. He preaches that the best way to play in person (either in a regular setting, or with a regular group of opponents, I would append) is to cultivate a reputation as a very tough, very tight player -- and from there, you will command respect in every pot you enter. That changes the dynamic of the game significantly, as the other players' responses to your actions offer much more information to you once you have established this reputation.

If you have the ability (both in poker and people skills) to play this way, you can find that as the "commander" of your table, you get an awful lot of breaks your way, and are afforded many chances to win pots you are not entitled to. It requires dumping some strategies that can work sometimes (like slowplaying) but overall, I have found it to be a very sound philosophy under the right circumstances.

In my regular tournament game, I love that other players come to me for strategy questions, groan when I call their bet, and get unnerved when I watch the table rather than the cards. The reputation is worth as much as my actual card play, at this point.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I have basically adjusted to where I no longer play hands like A7 or QT even in late position... I'm just finding that I don't get a truly strong hand frequently enough to merit staying in with them.

Excellent point, Quik. Unless you're open-raising to steal the blinds, these hands belong in the muck everytime. QTo and KTo are bastard hands and will cause you to lose a lot of money. If you hit the flop, you will either take down a small pot or else lose a large pot.

[sabotai]

Don't play QTo, don't play KTo...check.

[Subby]

I am curious to know what folks think is wrong with Hellmuth's book. Aside from his inflated ego and liberal use of exclamation points, his strategy seemed to be pretty sound - represent strength - eschew calling in favor of raising, etc..

I ordered four Sklansky books, so I will have something to compare Phil to when they arrive, but his book has been an eye-opener for this beginner.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Subby

I am curious to know what folks think is wrong with Hellmuth's book. Aside from his inflated ego and liberal use of exclamation points, his strategy seemed to be pretty sound - represent strength - eschew checking in favor of raising, etc..

I ordered four Sklansky books, so I will have something to compare Phil to when they arrive, but his book has been an eye-opener for this beginner.

I love Phil's book. I use his 3 tiers of cards to play. And I have his animal things stuck in my head so I actually pick out people who are mice or lions or whatnot automatically now.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Subby

I am curious to know what folks think is wrong with Hellmuth's book. Aside from his inflated ego and liberal use of exclamation points, his strategy seemed to be pretty sound - represent strength - eschew checking in favor of raising, etc..

Phil Helmuth is an excellent no-limit player, ranking among the world's best. However, he is a very mediocre limit player, and his book will get you into a lot of trouble if you try to apply it to limit games.

[Subby]

I found his 10 hands are a great start in single table tourney play. I have expanded a bit to include mid-low pairs and Ax suited when I am playing in late position - but those ten hands have been good to me.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Phil Helmuth is an excellent no-limit player, ranking among the world's best. However, he is a very mediocre limit player, and his book will get you into a lot of trouble if you try to apply it to limit games.

that was the 1st thing I learned course I sucked at limit before i read his book too

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Phil Helmuth is an excellent no-limit player, ranking among the world's best. However, he is a very mediocre limit player, and his book will get you into a lot of trouble if you try to apply it to limit games.

But Phil regales the reader with stories from his many Hold 'Em tourney wins!!!

I am shocked. SHOCKED!!!

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Subby

But Phil regales the reader with stories from his many Hold 'Em tourney wins!!!

I am shocked. SHOCKED!!!

that's cause he's.....

(wait for it)




BRILLIANT!!!

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Chubby

that's cause he's.....

(wait for it)




BRILLIANT!!!

That little zen, ESPN feature piece was

(wait for it)






hideous

[thealmighty]

It seems Phil is the quintessential spoiled momma's boy. He is always crying when he gets beat- every loss is a bad beat- and puffing-up on every win. I had to laugh in the World Series when he went whining to his dad after someone pulled out on him. (Not that I could beat him, of course, but he is a pussy).

[Sporkimata]

I just bought Skalanskys Theory of Poker. Thats a pretty good read. I also got a newer book called Killer Poker Online. It is one of the first books I have ever seen go into how poker online is a different game than table games. Its pretty good too. I need to buy more basic books though I think. Some of this stuff gets pretty heady.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Sporkimata

I just bought Skalanskys Theory of Poker. Thats a pretty good read. I also got a newer book called Killer Poker Online. It is one of the first books I have ever seen go into how poker online is a different game than table games. Its pretty good too. I need to buy more basic books though I think. Some of this stuff gets pretty heady.

I would suggest the Lee Jones book (Winning Low Limit Hold Em) or the Lou Kreiger book (Hold Em Excellence: From Beginner to Winner) that I (and QuikSand) liked a lot.

The Jones book is probably more in-depth in it's study of starting hands (pre-flop play). I think it might be a bit better for a beginner than the Kreiger book, but they're both great books overall. They are both significantly easier reads than Skalnsky's stuff and are well written and fun/easy to read.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

That little zen, ESPN feature piece was

(wait for it)

hideous

It was probably the funniest (unintenionally) of the segments on some of the big players. Seeing him sitting there, meditating in some shitty T-shirt just cracked me up. He takes himself much too seriously. It makes it soooo much fun to watch him lose.

I was watching an episode of a recent event (Showdown at the Sands) on some cable channel i get. He took a bad beat (from T.J. Cloutier), got knocked out a few hands later, and just whined like a bitch the whole time. He wouldn't stop harping about the one hand he lost. The guy is nearly intolerable.

[AnalBumCover]

I'm reading Championship No-Limit & Pot-Limit Hold'em by T.J. Cloutier. He veers a bit away from basic strategy and focuses much on observation of other players, situational strategies, and other strategies that are unique to the nature of tournament play. Since I play one or two home tournaments per month among my friends which can be as large as 20-25 players, this book is very helpful to me.