End Zone Celebrations Unpatriotic?

[sterlingice]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs03/news/story?id=1723180

Commish: 'Take that stuff out of the game'

Associated Press

HOUSTON -- Paul Tagliabue has a powerful message for NFL players when they get to the end zone: Stash that cell phone.

And don't even think about anything more elaborate to celebrate a touchdown

The commissioner warned players Friday that harsher discipline for over-the-top demonstrations are on the way.


He said unsportsmanlike conduct will draw stronger penalties and fines, even leaving open the possibility of suspensions.

Coaches and team owners have urged him "to take that stuff out of the game," he said during his state of the NFL address, held each year prior to the Super Bowl. He said the NFL Players' Association and the league's competition committee will discuss stronger punishment for stunts such as pulling out a cell phone in the end zone after a touchdown.

The New Orleans Saints' Joe Horn did exactly that on national television during a Sunday night game; the team was fined $30,000.

"Take taunting out of the game, take unsportsmanlike conduct out of the game," he said. "Cell phones, pens, all the other things, penalties likely will escalate if this does not stop."

Tagliabue said many coaches called him to say they were outraged by these episodes.

"They thought these were way outside the rules and uncalled for and humiliating to their players and embarrassing to players in general," he said.

Two years ago, San Francisco's Terrell Owens pulled a pen out of his sock and autographed a football after scoring a touchdown, prompting a warning from Tagliabue to all teams that similar acts would be punished.

"I think it's absurd," Washington Redskins linebacker LaVar Arrington said. "It's entertainment. It's a sport. This isn't Desert Storm and it's not Iraq.

"My father went to Vietnam and gave up both his legs for this country. If someone wants to show off, it's no big deal to me. That's a lot bigger deal."

Panthers running back-kick returner Rod Smart, who made his reputation as He Hate Me in the XFL, also didn't have a problem with what Horn did. But he doubted anyone would try something similar in the Super Bowl.

"If he did, he'd probably be fined six figures," Smart said.

On the subject of Maurice Clarett, Tagliabue ruled out a settlement of the Ohio State player's federal lawsuit challenging the league's draft rules. A college player must be out of high school three years before he can be eligible for the draft. Clarett played just his freshman year for the Buckeyes and was suspended from the team last season.

The league wants the case thrown out.

"There are no discussions of a settlement," Tagliabue said. "It's a pretty direct point in terms of what the rule is and Maurice Clarett's status falls under the rule.

"Our system is working. It is easy to identify players who were helped by staying in school and were developing their skills."

Tagliabue clarified the ruling on players who tested positive for the steroid THG during the season, but were not disciplined. The league began testing on Oct. 6 after the previously undetected designer steroid was discovered following a tip from a track coach to one of the drug-testing labs.

He said it would have been unfair to the 32 teams to issue suspensions for tests done before Oct. 6.

"The league and players' association did not agree on non suspensions, I made that decision," he said.

He said Gene Upshaw, executive director of the players' union, and Harold Henderson, director of the NFL's Management Council, were working on the issue and that "we will get an agreement on whether there will be any discipline on previous use of THG."

THG use has been banned by nearly every sports organization and league worldwide, including the NFL.

Tagliabue also discussed:

Diversity hiring in the front office--

Tagliabue did not think the NFL policy requiring teams to interview minority candidates for head coaching positions necessarily applies to the front office. He said the criteria for hiring head coaches differs from that used for hiring front-office personnel.

Restrictions on hiring assistant coaches from playoff teams--

Tagliabue doesn't anticipate any changes in the current interview policy for assistants seeking head coaching jobs.



Patriots coordinators Romeo Crennel and Charlie Weis, despite seven interviews between them during New England's bye week earlier this month, did not get any of the head coaching vacancies. That was the only time they could be interviewed, and teams weren't willing to wait until February to hire them.

Los Angeles and San Diego--

The league continues its search for a suitable stadium plan in the Los Angeles market. He also expressed optimism the San Diego Chargers would reach agreement with that city on a new stadium proposal.

Officiating--

Asked if officials were throwing fewer flags during the playoffs, Tagliabue insisted the officiating has "remained consistent in the regular season and the postseason."

Art Modell--

Tagliabue campaigned for Modell to make the Hall of Fame, although the retiring owner of the Baltimore Ravens is not a finalist this year.

The global game--

In restating his support for international football, Tagliabue said he could envision the day when "a Chinese quarterback, Yao Fling," was throwing touchdown passes.

This part just gets me:

"I think it's absurd," Washington Redskins linebacker LaVar Arrington said. "It's entertainment. It's a sport. This isn't Desert Storm and it's not Iraq.

"My father went to Vietnam and gave up both his legs for this country. If someone wants to show off, it's no big deal to me. That's a lot bigger deal."

Is this really what it comes down to in this country now- anything you do is unAmerican. Then again, this is LaVar Arrington, so it's not like we're talking about a political mind here. But if "regular people" start to think that way...


SI

[oykib]

I think you are missing Arrington's point, SI.

What I believe he's saying is that the league shouldn't be getting all bent out of shape because football is just a game. He's saying that the game should be fun. War is serious. The NFL is not. Neither coaches, owners, nor players should get upset because a guy in the other uniform is dancing around.

[Groundhog]

It's serious to those involved in the game. Especially with the coaches, it's their job. If a player scores a TD against their team, they have in some way failed to do their job, and having the other player ram it down there throat by doing a dance routine and calling his mother is completely unneccessary.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by oykib

I think you are missing Arrington's point, SI.

What I believe he's saying is that the league shouldn't be getting all bent out of shape because football is just a game. He's saying that the game should be fun. War is serious. The NFL is not. Neither coaches, owners, nor players should get upset because a guy in the other uniform is dancing around.

I think he's just trying to bring up war because he knows it sways public sentiment. If he had wanted to say "I think this is silly because we're in the entertainment business and we're here to entertain", he would have just said that, but his quote is a complete non sequitor.
SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by oykib

He's saying that the game should be fun. ... Neither coaches, owners, nor players should get upset because a guy in the other uniform is dancing around.

Okay, fine.

Then if other players choose to have their "fun" by beating the crap out of some vaudeville wanna-be before/during/after their end zone routine, that should be no problem either.

After all, it'd be entertaining to both players & fans, it shouldn't upset anybody.

[oykib]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I think he's just trying to bring up war because he knows it sways public sentiment. If he had wanted to say "I think this is silly because we're in the entertainment business and we're here to entertain", he would have just said that, but his quote is a complete non sequitor.
SI

I wouldn't say it's a total non-sequitor. People use examples that are part of their own experience. Growing up with his father the way that he did is his. It's just like when you hear, "My dad was a bricklayer..."

[Draft Dodger]

maybe if Arrington had changed his wording to "It's etertainment, but NFL players are risking their future health to bring that entertainment. Some players will destroy their bodies so badly that they will have difficulty walking later in life. If we want to dance now, who's to say it's wrong"

[Ben E Lou]

No Fun League strikes again.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

No Fun League strikes again.

Exactly. Sometimes the NFL is right-on with policy, but with respect to the indivdual, they usually can't stay out of their own way.

Just let them dance, godammnit! Keep fining them, the money goes to charity anyway. There should just be 1 fixed amount for an "excessive" endzone celebration, like 10 grand or something.

[oykib]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Okay, fine.

Then if other players choose to have their "fun" by beating the crap out of some vaudeville wanna-be before/during/after their end zone routine, that should be no problem either.

After all, it'd be entertaining to both players & fans, it shouldn't upset anybody.

That's just a silly position to take. One is, at worst, poor taste and sportsmanship. One is assault.

If you don't want Joe Horn to dance, then don't let him score three touchdowns on you.

It's just another one of those crybaby rules.

Don't run up the score.
Don't steal when you are up by more than four runs after the sixth inning.
Don't show up the team after you score the touchdown...

[Draft Dodger]

as I've said here several times before -

let them do whatever they want to celebrate - as long as it's confined to the endzone, doesn't involve props, and only involves the 11 players on the field when the TD was scored.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

as I've said here several times before -

let them do whatever they want to celebrate - as long as it's confined to the endzone, doesn't involve props, and only involves the 11 players on the field when the TD was scored.

My thoughts on celebration exactly. But, I don't think having an excessive celebration warrents stiffer fines and penalties (suspension!?) than have already happened. And Unsportsmanlike penalty and a 10k fine should be the absolute max for it.

But then again they fine people 10k if their uniform isn't perfect...so maybe a bit higher.

[clintl]

I have never understood why the NFL is so anal about celebrations. Let them celebrate.

[JW]

Celebrations and taunting are just another natural outgrowth of the "memememememe" attitude growing ever more prevalent in America. Throw in a healthy dose of Jackassness, and you reach the mentality of a growing number of people in the country, that is, total idiots who want everyone to look at them.

[Travis]

In addition to Draft Dodger's rules, we should also add a 10 second time limit, if you can't get your boys together and do your little dance and make your little love in the amount of time allowed, you have to pack up and go to the sidelines or get flagged.

[Anthony]

let them do whatever they want to celebrate - as long as it's confined to the endzone, doesn't involve props, and only involves the 11 players on the field when the TD was scored.

i agree with this 100%. perhaps using cell phones or other "props" as DD put it could be considered "extreme", but celebrations such as the Dirty Bird (Falcons), Mile High Salute (Bronco's) and the Bob and Weave (Rams) were very fun to watch. to me those were examples of true celebration - and not ramming it down the other team's throat. Joe Horn's celebration (while i didn't have a prob) was trash talk at it's dirtiest. i think team-wide celebrations such as the examples used above are great ways for fans to identify with their team. Free agency has robbed fans of any players who spend their whole careers with the same team. Before you could identify a team by the guys who were the backbone of it, guys who were with the team for upwards of 8 or 10 years. now you get guys who bounce around every 3 or so years.

these guys are millionaires. they're paid to use their skills to entertain.

let them entertain.

[clintl]

Every generation in the history of sports (and every other endeavor for which fame is a reward) has had its player or person who liked to be the center of attention, and cultivated it. It is not in any way a new phenomenon.

[andy m]

i wish there was no celebration at all until the game is over. score a TD, pump your first in the air then flip the ball into the crowd or spike it without making too much of a show of thing and then run back to the sideline. make a sack, get up run back to the defensive huddle and work out what you're doing on the next play. stop being such a wanker and play FOOTBALL. watching celebrating is fun? go to a disco and watch people dance and goof around all you like. woot woot!

[The Afoci]

I think that the NFL should ban people celebrating touchdowns in the stands of the stadium. I mean, could you imagine being the away team going in to a stadium, giving up a touchdown and having the crowd jump up and cheer. Then they should move to stop celebrations in bars and private homes. We don't need the bad vibes out there...

[Dutch]

I don't think the NFL has ever had a problem with a guy spontaneously celebrating a TD. Ever. The NFL only has a problem with premeditated choreographed celebrations. While pulling a cell phone out of the goalpost to call momma may seem harmless, it was a completely independent decision. That's the problem. Because for every guy pulling a cellphone out to call home, another guy is racing a football back to the home teams logo at midfield and slamming the football down on it, drawing instant unhappiness from opponents and fans. Which could result in people throwing snowballs, ice, batteries, whatever.

Celebrate? yes.

Allow every player, for good or bad, to make up their own individual unregulated celebrations where somewhere between 0-25% are meant to humiliate or taunt or cause reaction? No.

I think this is a reasonable explanation.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by oykib

That's just a silly position to take. One is, at worst, poor taste and sportsmanship. One is assault.

Actually, a good bit of the action that occurs on a football field would be considered assault if you did it on the street.

So, if you accept violence on the field, then I don't see why tackling a guy during his celebration is a problem. After all, it's all about entertainment, right?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by oykib

What I believe he's saying is that the league shouldn't be getting all bent out of shape because football is just a game. He's saying that the game should be fun. War is serious. The NFL is not.

But "it's war. They're out there to kill you, so I'm out there to kill them. We don't care about anybody but this U. They're going after my legs. I'm going to come right back at them. I'm a fucking soldier."

[fantastic flying froggies]

What I really want to know is this : is it still unpatriotic if they celebrate their TD with Skydog's world-famous star spangled underwear ?

[JW]

Originally Posted by clintl

Every generation in the history of sports (and every other endeavor for which fame is a reward) has had its player or person who liked to be the center of attention, and cultivated it. It is not in any way a new phenomenon.

I think that is wrong. We have seen a shift from a focus on the team to a focus on the individual. A Larry Bird or Magic Johnson, to name just a couple of fairly recent players, though they will be ancient history to some, might taunt his opponent the entire game, but he did it in a way that didn't draw everyone's attention, and if Bird or Magic made a big play, neither found the camera to do a chest-thumping pose because they were focused on the game, getting back on defense, trying to make a play, rather than on drawing attention. So there has been a huge shift among many players, most of it happening in the last 20 years, from team to me. Likewise in football you can go back to the original sack dance and endzone dance adn find they aren't, relatively speaking, that old.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

This part just gets me:



Is this really what it comes down to in this country now- anything you do is unAmerican. Then again, this is LaVar Arrington, so it's not like we're talking about a political mind here. But if "regular people" start to think that way...


SI

You would be surprised how many "regular" people already think this way. Many people (not all) who do not like TD celebrations believe that these celebrations are "attacks on the sanctity of American valuesl." So the stretch from that position to war is not that huge considering the context that football continues to be related to war by many associated with it. I believe that if you don't want a guy to celebrate, dont let him score! If he wants to celebrate a TD when his team is down by 30 points with 10 seconds left, trust me, his teamates will let him know about it. I personally think that fans are more humiliated by these celebrations than most of the players. As far as it not being tolerated by the NFL or the fans. When the NFL stops putting celebratioins in their video games, when NFL films stops showing celebrations, when fans stop immitating celebrations when they play sports, then I will know that it won't be tolerated.

[oykib]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Actually, a good bit of the action that occurs on a football field would be considered assault if you did it on the street.

So, if you accept violence on the field, then I don't see why tackling a guy during his celebration is a problem. After all, it's all about entertainment, right?

Those 'assaults' happen in the context of the game. If you wanna blow up Joe Horn the next time he comes over the middle, feel free. He's an asshole for doing the cell phone bit. Also, it's against the rules to stash foreign objects on the field of play. But the celebrations themselves shouldn't be illegal.

The argument that we shouldn't have celerations because they lead to fights is foolish. The fact that coaches and owners think that there players can't keep violent tendencies confined to the times before the whistle blows is aa much bigger problem.

[tucker342]

Originally Posted by The Afoci

I think that the NFL should ban people celebrating touchdowns in the stands of the stadium. I mean, could you imagine being the away team going in to a stadium, giving up a touchdown and having the crowd jump up and cheer. Then they should move to stop celebrations in bars and private homes. We don't need the bad vibes out there...

lol

[JW]

Speaking of crowd noise, the NCAA tried to limit football crowd noise a couple of decades ago, with a short-lived rule allowing the visiting team to delay running a play if the noise was too loud, and with threatened but little-used penalties for excessive crowd noise. I particularly recall a visit by Ohio St. to LSU in 1987 (game ended in 13-13 tie) in which Ohio St. would not run their first offensive play for several minutes, claiming the crowd noise was too loud. Of course we all knew this was just psychological warfare, trying to take the crowd out of the game. They eventually ran the play afater the refs threatened a delay penalty against LSU and the crowd momentarily quieted. And of course after that first series, OSU did not complain about the noise the rest of the game, even though it got louder as the game went on, of course. The NCAA quietly dropped that stupid rule a year or two later. OSU also refused to take the field before LSU before the start of the game in another bit of gamesmanship, to avoid being showered with booes, and LSU refused to come out until OSU came out. Both teams waited several minutes in the entrance tunnels until the refs and TV guys finally persuaded both to come out together. The game ended in a tie when both teams missed field goals in the final minutes.

[SunDancer]

I'm pretty anti-celebrations. If I want to watch multi-millionaire guys dance that I pay $40-some bucks a pop to see, I could save myself the time and money and go watch my drunk friends dance, and they are alot more entertianing.

[Raiders Army]

I think players should be fined if they don't come up with a good celebration....Screw the system and screw the homos out there who don't want to see a player show emotion.

I've started drinking for the superbowl, so pretty much ignore what I've said.

[JW]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I think players should be fined if they don't come up with a good celebration....Screw the system and screw the homos out there who don't want to see a player show emotion.

I've started drinking for the superbowl, so pretty much ignore what I've said.

Actually, to use your term, I would think it would be the 'homos' who would want to see men in tight pants do a cute little celebration dance after scoring a touchdown.

[The Afoci]

Yeah, the Superbowl has been ruined by Steve Smith and Jake Delhomme... Celebrating after a great play that kept them in it. And what about Tom Brady running up the middle for a first down and then making the first down signal himself. Classless. Get up, walk back to the huddle and show everyone at home that the game is all about staying calm and not emotions. That crowd seemed a little to figgety for me as well. They need to smoke some weed and calm their asses down. I almost celebrated when Carolina scored, but then I realised I would just look like an idiot. I stopped.

[JW]

Originally Posted by The Afoci

Yeah, the Superbowl has been ruined by Steve Smith and Jake Delhomme... Celebrating after a great play that kept them in it. And what about Tom Brady running up the middle for a first down and then making the first down signal himself. Classless. Get up, walk back to the huddle and show everyone at home that the game is all about staying calm and not emotions. That crowd seemed a little to figgety for me as well. They need to smoke some weed and calm their asses down. I almost celebrated when Carolina scored, but then I realised I would just look like an idiot. I stopped.

But I didn't see any planned, choreographed celebrations with props. I saw instead genuine joy. And the team wasn't down by 28 points and out of the playoffs. I would see a difference between the planned "look at me, I'm a Jackass" celebrations and the spontaneous celebrations.

[Craptacular]

Most forms of celebration are fine. Poor sportsmanship pisses me off to no end. Tags is right on.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Sportsmanship is overrated.

[yabanci]

patriotism is overrated.

[Craptacular]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Sportsmanship is overrated.

So we should all just be assholes as long as we're having fun?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Craptacular

So we should all just be assholes as long as we're having fun?

Check out most pickup games at the local Y.....we generally are