OT: More Hold Em Hand Discussion

primelord · 02-06-2004, 01:21 PM

I was involved in another interesting hand the other night and I wanted to see how you guys would have played this.

The format was a no-limit tournament and we are down to 6 people. I have the big stack at the table with 5000 in chips, but I don't have a very large lead over the rest of the table.

I am UTG+1 and I get dealt...
K

K

UTG folds, I rasie to 500, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls. Putting 1500 in the pot.

The flop comes out...
9

K

4

SB pushes all-in with 3000 chips, BB then raises to also go all in with about 3400 in chips, and the action is to me...

What would you guys do here?

Edit: I apologize to the Sideline green users. The suit pictures look much better in every other theme, but look pretty crappy in the sideline for some reason

Fidatelo · 02-06-2004, 01:23 PM

Fold, the odds of a flush are too good.

cthomer5000 · 02-06-2004, 01:24 PM

I think i'd probably fold. One of the two is likely bluffing, but one probably has a flush already.

rkmsuf · 02-06-2004, 01:27 PM

that's tough. Very often you'll get people with 4 spades going on faith they hit the draw. Or they may have the nuts already. Either way it's risky acting last.

If it's 5:00 am and you are still playing I say stick. Otherwise you'd probably be wise to fold...

The Afoci · 02-06-2004, 01:27 PM

Punch the two players still in and run away.

primelord · 02-06-2004, 01:36 PM

Another thing to keep in mind is that in addition to the possibility that my hand may still be the best at the moment I have 7 outs to improving to a full house or quads on the turn, and if I don't imrpove then my out actually increase to 10 outs of improving on the river.

dixieflatline · 02-06-2004, 01:43 PM

Let's assume that one of the players has the flush. While the SB could be bluffing I think it's very unlikely the BB is. It's possible he is holding AsXx but in my opinion unlikely. You still win if the board pairs or the other king comes off which is roughly 30%(if my math is correct). So I don't think you quite have the pot odds to call but it's pretty close. With that and the chance that you may be in a dominating lead right now if both players don't have the flush I think calling isn't a bad idea.

rkmsuf · 02-06-2004, 01:45 PM

Kind of also depends on your feel of the other players. If you've been at the same table you may have a sense of what's going on...

QuikSand · 02-06-2004, 01:48 PM

I think I'd fold... assuming you're confident that you don't "need" this win to position yourself well in the money. If that's the case, then I think you let one of the double up, take your small lumps, and hope at least one guy flushes.

I do agree with dixieflatline, though, that AsXx is a very possible hand for one of these players, and I think it's possible for either one (especially is the second card is paired on the board).

johnnyshaka · 02-06-2004, 01:49 PM

So...Primelord...what did you do???

primelord · 02-06-2004, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Kind of also depends on your feel of the other players. If you've been at the same table you may have a sense of what's going on...

Good point I should have put that info in the original post. I have played a lot with both of these guys. The SB has pretty good starting hand standards, but tends to over play his hands post flop a bit. The BB is just flat out not very good and in known to play almost any two cards prefolp at any time.

Another thing to keep in mind I guess is if I fold, ynless they chop, one guys is going to either be eliminated or virtually eliminated and I will still have the second big stack at the table. I also feel that I am the best player sitting at the table. (But who doesn't?

)

rkmsuf · 02-06-2004, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by primelord

Good point I should have put that info in the original post. I have played a lot with both of these guys. The SB has pretty good starting hand standards, but tends to over play his hands post flop a bit. The BB is just flat out not very good and in known to play almost any two cards prefolp at any time.

Another thing to keep in mind I guess is if I fold, ynless they chop, one guys is going to either be eliminated or virtually eliminated and I will still have the second big stack at the table. I also feel that I am the best player sitting at the table. (But who doesn't?

)

The fact the one player goes out and you are sitting second being the best player overrides the fact you think they both may be bluffing/overplaying their hands. Fold and make a go of it from there...it's painful since you have 3 of a kind/full boat possiblity but that's what I'd do...although having the benefit of sitting here thinking about it helps. I'd admit in a bang/bang moment I'd be 50/50 to call...

dixieflatline · 02-06-2004, 01:57 PM

you still have chips left if you call and lose. With this new information I think it's definitely possible that the SB has As but not the flush and BB may have a lower trips or something crazy. I say call.

primelord · 02-06-2004, 02:00 PM

Well I did in fact end up folding although it was very difficult to do. I had a very similar read as to what most of you came up with. That the SB probably didn't have it, but that there was an excellent chance the BB did and even more so that one of them was probably atleast holds the As.

So I mucked and the blinds flip over their cards.

The SB was holding the under played preflop and over played postflop
A

A

And the BB flipped over
Q

3

The turn and the river were both blanks and the BB took it down. So my fold turned out to be very good. After the hand they asked me what I had so I told the dealer to go ahead and flip my cards over. And everyone was shocked that I would have layed down the set of Kings. Everyone else agreed that they would have gone down swinging with that hand. (Not saying much considering I would only consider two of them decent card players) But I had a very difficult time laying them down myself and I wanted to see what you guys thought.

Radii · 02-06-2004, 02:11 PM

I would think that a ton of it would depend on what you know about these two players. Would the small blind immediately push all-in with the flush?

With 3000 chips left, if I am in early position and I flop a flush, I'm probably not going to play it that fast. What do you think the SB would have done from what you know?

Your pot odds are 2.3:1. This is where some weird Sklansky math would come in. If you are 100% sure you're against a made flush, you're not getting the odds to call, but if you feel certain that the SB is bluffing, and you feel that there is a 50% chance that the big blind is also bluffing, well, you may well want to call...

primelord · 02-06-2004, 02:17 PM

The SB doesn't slow play anything. He probably would have pushed all in if he flopped 4 aces.

However as you can see for what he had he is also very capable of pushing all in on a solid hand against a very scary board.

I think his hope obviously was to just push us out in case one of us was only holding 1 spade. Atleast that is what I would hope he was thinking. I have also seen him push all in with pocket 8's when the board was A 9 K 3 9. So who knows for certain what the hell he was thinking.

johnnyshaka · 02-06-2004, 02:22 PM

That's why it's so tempting to go head to head with those guys...'cause 9 times out of 10, he's got nothing...but when he does have something...it seems to sting even more than being beaten by a solid card player.

02-06-2004, 01:23 PM	#2
Fidatelo Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Winnipeg, MB	Fold, the odds of a flush are too good. __________________ "Breakfast? Breakfast schmekfast, look at the score for God's sake. It's only the second period and I'm winning 12-2. Breakfasts come and go, Rene, but Hartford, the Whale, they only beat Vancouver maybe once or twice in a lifetime."

02-06-2004, 01:27 PM	#4
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	that's tough. Very often you'll get people with 4 spades going on faith they hit the draw. Or they may have the nuts already. Either way it's risky acting last. If it's 5:00 am and you are still playing I say stick. Otherwise you'd probably be wise to fold... __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

02-06-2004, 01:27 PM	#5
The Afoci Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Moorhead	Punch the two players still in and run away. __________________ I had something.

02-06-2004, 01:45 PM	#8
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	Kind of also depends on your feel of the other players. If you've been at the same table you may have a sense of what's going on... __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

02-06-2004, 02:00 PM	#14
primelord Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000	Results Well I did in fact end up folding although it was very difficult to do. I had a very similar read as to what most of you came up with. That the SB probably didn't have it, but that there was an excellent chance the BB did and even more so that one of them was probably atleast holds the As. So I mucked and the blinds flip over their cards. The SB was holding the under played preflop and over played postflop A A And the BB flipped over Q 3 The turn and the river were both blanks and the BB took it down. So my fold turned out to be very good. After the hand they asked me what I had so I told the dealer to go ahead and flip my cards over. And everyone was shocked that I would have layed down the set of Kings. Everyone else agreed that they would have gone down swinging with that hand. (Not saying much considering I would only consider two of them decent card players) But I had a very difficult time laying them down myself and I wanted to see what you guys thought.

02-06-2004, 01:36 PM	#6
primelord Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000	Another thing to keep in mind is that in addition to the possibility that my hand may still be the best at the moment I have 7 outs to improving to a full house or quads on the turn, and if I don't imrpove then my out actually increase to 10 outs of improving on the river.

02-06-2004, 01:43 PM	#7
dixieflatline High School Varsity Join Date: Sep 2003	Let's assume that one of the players has the flush. While the SB could be bluffing I think it's very unlikely the BB is. It's possible he is holding AsXx but in my opinion unlikely. You still win if the board pairs or the other king comes off which is roughly 30%(if my math is correct). So I don't think you quite have the pot odds to call but it's pretty close. With that and the chance that you may be in a dominating lead right now if both players don't have the flush I think calling isn't a bad idea.

02-06-2004, 01:48 PM	#9
QuikSand lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Annapolis, Md	I think I'd fold... assuming you're confident that you don't "need" this win to position yourself well in the money. If that's the case, then I think you let one of the double up, take your small lumps, and hope at least one guy flushes. I do agree with dixieflatline, though, that AsXx is a very possible hand for one of these players, and I think it's possible for either one (especially is the second card is paired on the board).

02-06-2004, 01:49 PM	#10
johnnyshaka College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Edmonton, AB	So...Primelord...what did you do???

02-06-2004, 01:57 PM	#13
dixieflatline High School Varsity Join Date: Sep 2003	you still have chips left if you call and lose. With this new information I think it's definitely possible that the SB has As but not the flush and BB may have a lower trips or something crazy. I say call.

02-06-2004, 02:11 PM	#15
Radii Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	I would think that a ton of it would depend on what you know about these two players. Would the small blind immediately push all-in with the flush? With 3000 chips left, if I am in early position and I flop a flush, I'm probably not going to play it that fast. What do you think the SB would have done from what you know? Your pot odds are 2.3:1. This is where some weird Sklansky math would come in. If you are 100% sure you're against a made flush, you're not getting the odds to call, but if you feel certain that the SB is bluffing, and you feel that there is a 50% chance that the big blind is also bluffing, well, you may well want to call...

02-06-2004, 02:17 PM	#16
primelord Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000	The SB doesn't slow play anything. He probably would have pushed all in if he flopped 4 aces. However as you can see for what he had he is also very capable of pushing all in on a solid hand against a very scary board. I think his hope obviously was to just push us out in case one of us was only holding 1 spade. Atleast that is what I would hope he was thinking. I have also seen him push all in with pocket 8's when the board was A 9 K 3 9. So who knows for certain what the hell he was thinking.

02-06-2004, 02:22 PM	#17
johnnyshaka College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Edmonton, AB	That's why it's so tempting to go head to head with those guys...'cause 9 times out of 10, he's got nothing...but when he does have something...it seems to sting even more than being beaten by a solid card player.

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