TPF v1.36 Released

[hukarez]

Anyone get a chance to try out this new patch yet? Unless, of course, most of you are at work like I. Sounds like a bevvy of patch fixes. Bevvy. I hope I spelled that word right.

[Ben E Lou]

From Arlie...

Internal testing on the 1.3 update has completed and here is that update:

http://www.400softwarestudios.com/redist/T...F_Patch_136.exe

Barring any major issue, this will be the last patch for a while. I may revist some things down the road if I have some time, but I think this patch provides a game above and beyond what was promised prior to release. I would also like to thank all of you that provided feedback and some great ideas. While it's not feasible to work in every idea, I think the sheer number of new features/ideas that were added to the game since the initial release give an idea of how much I value your guys' feedback and input.

All old saves should work fine with this version provided nothing else is wrong with them. For those of you running MP leagues, you may want to send me an email as some of the older versions may have created some issues with the gameplans. I have worked with three leagues on this and the fixes are fairly simple. But, you will need to talk with me to get them done and be on the safe side.

Here's a summary on the update:

Feature Additions:
-Entire new web site creation in the reports part of the commissioner options. Select check the “Select All” checkbox and Generate Reports and the game will make an entire website for you with a main index.html file, league information, links to all your reports, a spotlight team (the one you logged in as) and information on the week and stage you are in for your league. Simply upload the entire Website folder that is created under your save path to a web server and the pages should run fine with all correct links for images, helmets and logos. The total space required for upload will be between 20 and 30 MB depending on the stage.
-Numerous new reports from inseason FAs, box scores and gamelogs for the current week, next week's schedule, league leaders, transactions, draft order and others.
-Added the ability to change the “user” selected team from the league settings commish screen. This is done to allow the commish of a league to change teams if they need to make FA bids manually, as well as allow them to easily rotate the spotlight team on the website reports.
-Added League MVP, Offensive POY, Defensive POY, Offensive ROY, Defensive ROY, Coach of the Year and Championship MVP to the tracked awards. All but Champ MVP will appear on a new awards report once the season finishes. All the above will also show up in a player’s personal awards/milestones list as well.
-Changed transaction weeks to “OS” for offseason, “PS” for preseason and “RS” for regular season in the media form.
-Can click the player name under draft history or prospect database and see his player card.
-transactions now show all computer moves once in the preseason.
-Change injury status from doubtful to questionable to probable.
-updated player development from a career and logevity standpoint to be more realistic.
-Updated the trade AI for player-pick trades and deals involving future year's picks
-Add in the ability to take a knee or call a QBspike for the user in playcalling.
-You can now import coaches when importing players from another league to start a new career.
-Added ability for non-commish multiplayer teams to cut players and have those cuts register in their sent files.
-modifying the path for Player images in the box score to be relative instead of absolute.
-Increase carries for top RBs
-Add % to run starting RB.
-Add in ability to override and run a certain RB when playcalling.
-Change RB's color if he's tired (Yellow - slightly, Orange - tired, Red - very tired).
-The game log can now be accessible from inside the game and printable.
-In MP games, you now need to be in commish mode in order to sim a week in the season or offseason, as well as sim multiple seasons.
-Added the league password to the commish settings so that you can change it at will (ie, going out of town and want another owner to sim).


Fixes:
-Bug where the AI would sometimes go on 4th down late in a tie game
-paired down RB carries a hair on the very high end guys when AI managed (some were being worked too hard which resulted in injury and/or too many carries over time)
-RTE when finishing a fantasy draft
-Redid the multiplayer import and export to ensure gameplans and packages are imported correctly.
-Late Game AI for 4th downs (ie, punting when should go for it or going for it when they should punt)
-Injury issue fixed on kickoffs where sometimes the opposing kicker got hurt.
-A few more engine tweaks based on feedback.
-Crash when declining an RFA email on rare occasions
-Fixed scrolling on the roster ratings forms when you first sort.
-The PBP should either say a tackler or that the play went out of bounds for most plays now.
-Error that occurs if you create a package, put it in the gameplan, then delete the package without removing it from the gameplan.
-Regional Currency issue (Swedish and German Windows) - Budget Screen
-Multiplayer crash that occurred when importing certain team files.
-Fixed a multiplayer bug where sometimes an RFA offer would show up in the email of the team making the offer and not the matching team.
-Fixed League career leaders where defensive players TD's don't appear on there card. Player card also now match fumble return yards.
-If you click coach office-view ST ratings, none of the columns sort, they will only sort if you view offense or defense first then return and try to sort.
-negative yardage punts
-Can only do one franchise, even if you trade the franchise player
-PBP timing
-On kickoffs and punts, penalties are being awarded to the wrong team. For example, in my last game, I was punting to Dallas. One of my guys was called for holding, but the 10 yard penalty was assessed AGAINST Dallas. This happens at least once a game.
-Time of possession too high on occassion.
-if the human controlled team trades up to get the current pick, after you come back to the college draft from the GM negotiate trade screen and you press start to continue the draft the AI selects a player for you and does not give the human-controlled team a chance to make their pick.
-the Current Cap Cost and Recoup if Cut values when signing free agents during the regular season. When attempting to sign a free agent to a one year deal, the proper values are shown for these two fields. However, the next three years also have values in the millions of dollars.
-on the Manage Active/Inactive Roster Screen, right clicking to cut a player still does not update the count of the individual heading that that player was found under (Active Players, Inactive Players, Practice Squad).
-on the Manage Active/Inactive Roster screen, clicking on a player's name that is listed under the Injured Reserve heading does not display his player card, while clicking on anyone else's name does.
-Look at the issue of defensive TDs going to certain players at a higher than normal amount.
-sorting by PR, KR or LS in FA screen
-Blocked or missed FG and Penalty issue.
-Hot keys
-Drafted, but released, players picked up no longer show as blue when transitioning to the preseason
-Reversed Team FG stats in box scores
-Fix the bug that has fumble return yards = fumble returns for stored retired players.
-Make the 'Override plays with strategy' boxes save
-if one views a previous week, then switches to a different screen, then comes back to the Play/Simulate Games screen, the current week is displayed, although the Play/Simulate Games button is still deactivated.
-Fixed hotkey mapping.
-the top of each box score lists the road team by team name and the home team by city name. It probably ought to choose one or the other.
-The scouts report on FA still says "This guy sucks why is he on our roster" even though we haven't signed them yet.

[MacroGuru]

Woot!! My requests made it!!

[yabanci]

I was thinking about giving this another test. My question: is the demo available to people who purchased the unfinished game when it was released and returned it for a refund? I emailed Arlie this question a week or so ago but he did not respond.

[Arles]

yabanci,

I pinged elicense on this a while back and was told there is not way to "reset" demos. They said if they allowed such a thing, a crack would be easier to make and risk the security of the game. So, the short answer is no.

[yabanci]

thanks, I'll probably give it a try anyway if reports on the new patch are good.

[kingfc22]

Wow. Good to see that TPF looks more and more like a career football sim.

AWARDS!!!! Yea

[Swaggs]

Are long term careers viable now?

I have avoided the game up to this point due to time and poor reviews, but if it is now a challenging game I can play for 30 years with some stability, I might give it another look.

[druez]

Swaggs poor reviews? I've seen three published reviews so far. One was a 4.75 out of 5.0, 2nd was 4.5 out of 5 and the third was a 75 out of a 100. On the 75 out of a 100 at gamershell.com the lowest scores came from graphics and sound. So overall I think the reviewers have liked the game.

http://www.frictionlessinsight.com/P...TPFootball.htm
http://www.gamershell.com/reviews_To...2004Revi.shtml
http://www.footballology.com/videoga...3?ArticleID=71

[Ben E Lou]

I haven't "played" the new version yet, but I let it run 30 years thsi afternoon. Here are the career records generated:

PASSING:
1 QB>60,000 yards (60,659 max)
5 QB>50,000 yards
18 QB>40,000 yards

RUSHING
1 >20,000 yards (21,492 max)
4 > 19,000 yards
BIG GAP down between 19,189 at #4 all-time and 16,707 at #5 all-time
7 >15,000 yards


still looks high on the defensive TD's--leading CB had 38 TD's, followed by 11 >20 TD's. I don't have any stats in front of me, but if I recall, that's high.

I've still yet to see anyone in TPF or FOF approach 200 sacks. Leader in this career had 181, which is the most I've ever seen. Next-highest were 166 and 156.




SEASON RECORDS
Passing Yards: 5,519
Passing TD's: 46
QB Rating: 121.5
Rushing: 2,522 yards
Rush Att: 439
Rush TD's: 23
Receptions: 127
Rec. Yards: 1,957
Receiving TD's: 20
Tackles: 192
Sacks: 24
INT's: 18
INT return TD's: 6

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I've still yet to see anyone in TPF or FOF approach 200 sacks. Leader in this career had 181, which is the most I've ever seen. Next-highest were 166 and 156.

Do you have any players who have hung on to their careers for three years too long?

[MizzouRah]

Up to Patch 1.37 now.


Todd

[Barkeep49]

The demo is simply a 3-day trial version of the latest version, correct? So it will be the latest build... Is this correct? If it's not correct with the demo be updated?

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

The demo is simply a 3-day trial version of the latest version, correct? So it will be the latest build... Is this correct? If it's not correct with the demo be updated?

Good question... I'm wanting to at least try the demo out.

I would think it's not up to 1.37 yet, but maybe Arlie or Scott can shed some light.


Todd

[druez]

I'm pretty sure you can install the demo, then install the patch and still play the demo in patched form.

[Ben E Lou]

bump...un-sticky

[Ben E Lou]

Dola--

This is archived in the reference thread, fyi.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by druez

I'm pretty sure you can install the demo, then install the patch and still play the demo in patched form.

Will have to try that out.


Todd

[hukarez]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Up to Patch 1.37 now.


Todd

If I'm not mistaken, that 1.37 version is just a minor multi-player thing addition. I haven't really played in any multi-player leagues myself, but I guess it's just smart to use the latest regardless.

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by hukarez

If I'm not mistaken, that 1.37 version is just a minor multi-player thing addition. I haven't really played in any multi-player leagues myself, but I guess it's just smart to use the latest regardless.

I believe 1.37 also fixes a problem with passing yardage not adding up correctly in game reports.

[hukarez]

Originally Posted by The_herd

I believe 1.37 also fixes a problem with passing yardage not adding up correctly in game reports.

Ahh, interesting. Well...from the looks of things, it looks like this one's coming off the shelf for a go around again. Anyone have more impressions? I only wish I could download a league file, with some history on it...seeing as it takes me (and probably other folks) quite awhile to simulate a good 30 seasons and all, I figure someone must be willing to put up his file for sharing?

[FargoFreez aka fof playa]

Originally Posted by druez

Swaggs poor reviews? I've seen three published reviews so far. One was a 4.75 out of 5.0....
http://www.footballology.com/videoga...3?ArticleID=71

A high score doesn't necessarily translate into a good review.

[Bill Abner]

I've played 3 seasonw with TPF v 1.36 in a solo league (going to test MP next week) and here are some general impressions. Keep in mind I did not play the earlier versions of the game. Some of these observations are frivolous..but hey I'm brainstorming.

--The trade AI is fairly easy to take advantage of. The first season in my test league I went 3-13, made some off season trades and made it to the AFC Champ game with a 13-3 mark. An example of a bad CPU trade: Trading a 3 star (range is 1-5) center with a nice low contract for a 7th round pick. And trading away a starting SS (4 star), who is coming off his rookie year with 3 INTs and 109 tackles and 3 sacks...for a 2nd and a 4th round pick. This SS was the last player taken in the first round the year before and also has a nice low contract. No way would a GM trade that guy for a 2nd and a 4th. I also traded away my 33 year old QB, and his 9 mil cap hit, to a team for a 6th round pick. Thank you for taking that salary on there bub. Plus it didn't give me a cap hit for his bonus money. A bug? The REAL kicker...they trade for this guy and he doesn't even start for them.

-CPU teams are terrible at finances. I have 4 teams in my league that have over 25 million in dead cap money. One team has *41 million* in dead cap money. Yeow. These teams are screwed.

-Rookies drafted in the first round seem to always pan out to be at the very least "good" players. Now granted this is only after three years but so far 90% of the first round picks are either studs, starters, or 5 star potential players waiting their turn. I have yet to see one just flat out bust, but I admit I do need to play more before stamping this as a definte issue.

--Speaking of rooks, I have been able to sign my first round picks to SEVEN year deals for fairly low cap costs. My stud CB signed a 7 year deal worth 12 million dollar. He was the 19th pick in the draft and is now a 5 star lockdown CB.

-These things make the game a bit too easy. I have no fear of losing players (I can just trade for more or restructure deals).

-As most of you know, you cannot manually sub any players when coaching the games. The patch allows you to set a % of the time your #1 RB gets the ball, but I'd still like more manual control over this.

-I can't use my wheel mouse to scroll through my rosters. Very annoying. In fact I'm no fan of the entire GUI.

-Playcalling AI needs work. I think this is a big area that FoF needs work in as well, but TPF could use a boost here too. I was reading my gamelog tonight and the CPU has 1st and goal at my 4 and I come out in a 4-3 Pass Def DIME? Uh...

-Some of the PbP is odd. When I call a medium slant to my #1 WR on 3rd and 9 I don't want to see that WR catch a pass for 3 yards.

-Stats. Well in my league there are a few bits of weirdness. Sacks are out of hand. Every year at least 5 QBs suffer at least 65 sacks. One poor guy was nailed 77 times. That's...a bit much. The stats my first year were totally out of whack:

15 runs from scrimmage over 80 yards; 6 over 90
28 1,000 yard rushers – 18 NFL
7 4,000+ yard passers (2 in NFL 2003)
24 passes over 80 yards
18 receivers with over 100 catches – 4 in NFL
36 players with 10+ sacks – 15 in NFL

Player notes:

A rookie DE #1 pick overall, registered 19 sacks
A rookie RB rushed for 2,150 yards
Another for 1,792
Another for 1,463
Another for 1,360

In all, 5 rookie RBs had 1,000 yard seasons and one went for over 2,000.

However, after this first year, things settled down and got back to reality. Again -- only three years in the books so take that FWIW but the stats are levelling out a bit (sans sacks).

OK that's some of the bad stuff. The good is that TPF is not THAT far off from being a very, very good game. It's not there yet and most likely will not be there until TPF2 (if they fix what's broken, mainly AI and player development related) but this is a hell of a first effort. It has more personality than FoF, has more depth in offensive gameplanning than FoF, and includes a TON of little extras like contract incentives, conditional draft picks, etc.

Lock me in a room and make me pick a game and I'll pick FoF. It's a better simulation. But TPF2 is definately a game I want to see.

Perhaps a multiplayer league will be better because you can erase some of the boneheaded AI gaffes if you have a full roster of human GMs? We'll see.

[Buccaneer]

--The trade AI is fairly easy to take advantage of. The first season in my test league I went 3-13, made some off season trades and made it to the AFC Champ game with a 13-3 mark. An example of a bad CPU trade: Trading a 3 star (range is 1-5) center with a nice low contract for a 7th round pick. And trading away a starting SS (4 star), who is coming off his rookie year with 3 INTs and 109 tackles and 3 sacks...for a 2nd and a 4th round pick. This SS was the last player taken in the first round the year before and also has a nice low contract. No way would a GM trade that guy for a 2nd and a 4th. I also traded away my 33 year old QB, and his 9 mil cap hit, to a team for a 6th round pick. Thank you for taking that salary on there bub. Plus it didn't give me a cap hit for his bonus money. A bug? The REAL kicker...they trade for this guy and he doesn't even start for them.

-CPU teams are terrible at finances. I have 4 teams in my league that have over 25 million in dead cap money. One team has *41 million* in dead cap money. Yeow. These teams are screwed.

-Rookies drafted in the first round seem to always pan out to be at the very least "good" players. Now granted this is only after three years but so far 90% of the first round picks are either studs, starters, or 5 star potential players waiting their turn. I have yet to see one just flat out bust, but I admit I do need to play more before stamping this as a definte issue.

--Speaking of rooks, I have been able to sign my first round picks to SEVEN year deals for fairly low cap costs. My stud CB signed a 7 year deal worth 12 million dollar. He was the 19th pick in the draft and is now a 5 star lockdown CB.

-These things make the game a bit too easy. I have no fear of losing players (I can just trade for more or restructure deals).

These are the only points in Bill's list that I found important. I, too, look forward to TPF2 to start playing this game. OOTP6 should be here soon so I'll be set until then.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

--The trade AI is fairly easy to take advantage of. The first season in my test league I went 3-13, made some off season trades and made it to the AFC Champ game with a 13-3 mark. An example of a bad CPU trade: Trading a 3 star (range is 1-5) center with a nice low contract for a 7th round pick. And trading away a starting SS (4 star), who is coming off his rookie year with 3 INTs and 109 tackles and 3 sacks...for a 2nd and a 4th round pick. This SS was the last player taken in the first round the year before and also has a nice low contract. No way would a GM trade that guy for a 2nd and a 4th. I also traded away my 33 year old QB, and his 9 mil cap hit, to a team for a 6th round pick. Thank you for taking that salary on there bub. Plus it didn't give me a cap hit for his bonus money. A bug? The REAL kicker...they trade for this guy and he doesn't even start for them.

The deal for the starting SS isn't that out of bounds, IMO. GB traded a second and swapped later picks for a backup CB last offseason. If a team had the cap space, trading a 6th for some QB depth isn't a bad deal either (but probably shouldn't have been made). Still, I definately feel there is room for improvement in the trade AI. I think this will come over time as I see more feedback like the above.

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

-CPU teams are terrible at finances. I have 4 teams in my league that have over 25 million in dead cap money. One team has *41 million* in dead cap money. Yeow. These teams are screwed.

First, dead money also includes roster bonuses, so that team may have had 8-10 players with roster bonuses to take up half that $41 million. How are the teams cap-wise? Are they over the cap? This dead money issue is less of one considering the game moves all roster bonuses to dead money in the middle of the offseason.

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

-Rookies drafted in the first round seem to always pan out to be at the very least "good" players. Now granted this is only after three years but so far 90% of the first round picks are either studs, starters, or 5 star potential players waiting their turn. I have yet to see one just flat out bust, but I admit I do need to play more before stamping this as a definte issue.

Busts occur from time to time. The normal odds are for 3-4 first rounders a year to end up as below average players and a few others to only be average. Injuries can also hamper a top pick

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

--Speaking of rooks, I have been able to sign my first round picks to SEVEN year deals for fairly low cap costs. My stud CB signed a 7 year deal worth 12 million dollar. He was the 19th pick in the draft and is now a 5 star lockdown CB.

-These things make the game a bit too easy. I have no fear of losing players (I can just trade for more or restructure deals).

How have you faired in your seasons so far? I have tried to keep rosters fairly consistent over time and balance the difficulty. In other words, it's very difficult to get top AI QBs, RBs and other valuable positions since they often break the bank to resign them. So, if you happen to get one in the draft, consider yourself fortunate. But, you probably won't have much success getting top players in FA unless a team happens to be in some cap trouble (which is also fairly rare).

I would play the game past the first couple seasons in the off chance you got a stacked roster off the bat.

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

-As most of you know, you cannot manually sub any players when coaching the games. The patch allows you to set a % of the time your #1 RB gets the ball, but I'd still like more manual control over this.

-I can't use my wheel mouse to scroll through my rosters. Very annoying. In fact I'm no fan of the entire GUI.

Fair criticism, and things that I will certainly look at for the next version of the game. But, with the easy hot-keys and quick menu navigation, most of the response on the UI has been positive.

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

-Playcalling AI needs work. I think this is a big area that FoF needs work in as well, but TPF could use a boost here too. I was reading my gamelog tonight and the CPU has 1st and goal at my 4 and I come out in a 4-3 Pass Def DIME? Uh...

What was the opposing offense in? If they went 5 or 4 WR, this is certainly something that could happen.

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

-Some of the PbP is odd. When I call a medium slant to my #1 WR on 3rd and 9 I don't want to see that WR catch a pass for 3 yards.

Maybe the defense played the deeper routes or had a blitz and QB had to get rid of the ball. 3rd and 9 seems like a good time to blitz. Also, this does happen in the NFL, have you ever seen a Bears game?

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

-Stats. Well in my league there are a few bits of weirdness. Sacks are out of hand. Every year at least 5 QBs suffer at least 65 sacks. One poor guy was nailed 77 times. That's...a bit much. The stats my first year were totally out of whack:

15 runs from scrimmage over 80 yards; 6 over 90
28 1,000 yard rushers – 18 NFL
7 4,000+ yard passers (2 in NFL 2003)
24 passes over 80 yards
18 receivers with over 100 catches – 4 in NFL
36 players with 10+ sacks – 15 in NFL

This is all being toned down a bit (esp the receivers and QBs) in 1.38 coming out in the next couple of days.

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

Player notes:

A rookie DE #1 pick overall, registered 19 sacks
A rookie RB rushed for 2,150 yards
Another for 1,792
Another for 1,463
Another for 1,360

In all, 5 rookie RBs had 1,000 yard seasons and one went for over 2,000.

However, after this first year, things settled down and got back to reality. Again -- only three years in the books so take that FWIW but the stats are levelling out a bit (sans sacks).

There are some anomolies that occur on some initial seasons from time to time. Most of it related to how strong some initial teams "draw". All this is valid criticism and things I will look at down the road.

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

OK that's some of the bad stuff. The good is that TPF is not THAT far off from being a very, very good game. It's not there yet and most likely will not be there until TPF2 (if they fix what's broken, mainly AI and player development related) but this is a hell of a first effort. It has more personality than FoF, has more depth in offensive gameplanning than FoF, and includes a TON of little extras like contract incentives, conditional draft picks, etc.

Lock me in a room and make me pick a game and I'll pick FoF. It's a better simulation. But TPF2 is definately a game I want to see.

Perhaps a multiplayer league will be better because you can erase some of the boneheaded AI gaffes if you have a full roster of human GMs? We'll see.

Overall, I think this a fair look at the game and appreciate the feedback. For the dead cap space, I think the fact that it includes roster bonuses for the year may change your outlook (regrettably, that isn't in the manual). Certainly other areas like the trade AI, player development and certain parts of the engine will improve in future versions as I get more feedback.

Arlie

[druez]

Originally Posted by FargoFreez aka fof playa

A high score doesn't necessarily translate into a good review.

The two other reviews were both quite good also. Guess its a matter of opinion.

[cincyreds]

Bill Abner is a good reviewer of games.

I remember him from High Heat boards awhile back he always gave good feedback about the game back then. So I respect what he has to say.

TPF2 should be great!

[hukarez]

I'm assuming this is the same Bill Abner from Operation Sports?

[MizzouRah]

Yep. Bill has been around for a long time and is a sports game nut much like most on here. He had the famous NCAA 2003 sliders that made the game so much fun for me.

Bill, if you are still around... what do you think about MVP 2004 thus far? I know it's only PA stuff and screenshots, but this might be a really in-depth baseball console/pc sim.


I'm in agreement, TPF2 should definitly give us another choice for football sims next year. Although, I'm going to try out the v1 demo.


Todd

[hukarez]

Ahh! Then it's his sliders which I use for EPSN Football! I haven't played that in awhile myself.

[druez]

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

--The trade AI is fairly easy to take advantage of. The first season in my test league I went 3-13, made some off season trades and made it to the AFC Champ game with a 13-3 mark. An example of a bad CPU trade: Trading a 3 star (range is 1-5) center with a nice low contract for a 7th round pick. And trading away a starting SS (4 star), who is coming off his rookie year with 3 INTs and 109 tackles and 3 sacks...for a 2nd and a 4th round pick. This SS was the last player taken in the first round the year before and also has a nice low contract. No way would a GM trade that guy for a 2nd and a 4th. I also traded away my 33 year old QB, and his 9 mil cap hit, to a team for a 6th round pick. Thank you for taking that salary on there bub. Plus it didn't give me a cap hit for his bonus money. A bug? The REAL kicker...they trade for this guy and he doesn't even start for them.

Hershel Walker? Ricky Williams? Keyshawn Johnson to Tampa from the Jets? We could go on but there are alot of strange trades made in the NFL.

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

-CPU teams are terrible at finances. I have 4 teams in my league that have over 25 million in dead cap money. One team has *41 million* in dead cap money. Yeow. These teams are screwed.

So were the Ravens after their Super Bowl Run. So were the 49ers and the Cowboys. It happens... Maybe not to that extreme but it definitely happens.

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

-Rookies drafted in the first round seem to always pan out to be at the very least "good" players. Now granted this is only after three years but so far 90% of the first round picks are either studs, starters, or 5 star potential players waiting their turn. I have yet to see one just flat out bust, but I admit I do need to play more before stamping this as a definte issue.

-These things make the game a bit too easy. I have no fear of losing players (I can just trade for more or restructure deals).

Sort of like the real NFL. Where teams constantly let go stars and pick up others. Happens every year. Teams really don't fear loosing any player, because they can pick up others, quite a few star players restructure their deals if they are hungry for a title and want to pick up the missing piece to their Super Bowl Puzzle.

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

-As most of you know, you cannot manually sub any players when coaching the games. The patch allows you to set a % of the time your #1 RB gets the ball, but I'd still like more manual control over this.

I agree

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

-I can't use my wheel mouse to scroll through my rosters. Very annoying. In fact I'm no fan of the entire GUI.

I wish you could scroll using your wheel also, but this other part is confusing. You aren't a fan of GUI's all together, or just this one in particular? Agreed it can be tweaked, but it is a step in the right direction compared to FOF in my opinion. I want to play a game not a spreadsheet.

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

-Playcalling AI needs work. I think this is a big area that FoF needs work in as well, but TPF could use a boost here too. I was reading my gamelog tonight and the CPU has 1st and goal at my 4 and I come out in a 4-3 Pass Def DIME? Uh...

Playcalling on a good 3rd of the teams in the NFL needs work. Just ask a Greenbay fan about punting in the Eagles game on 4th and less then 1. Or the Eagles how they constantly throw down near the goal line. There are alot of calls in the NFL that make you scratch your head.

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

-Some of the PbP is odd. When I call a medium slant to my #1 WR on 3rd and 9 I don't want to see that WR catch a pass for 3 yards.

Ok out of all your comments, this one really makes me scratch my head. It’s even to the point where I wonder how much football you watch? How many times, do you hear the announcers talk about them running pass routes well short of the first down. Or if there is a blitz, they will call a hot route. No it shouldn't happen all the time and in TPF it doesn't. Was your QB a rookie, was there a blitz, did a lineman get pressure, did the receiver run a bad route?

The whole premise of a slant is to hit the receiver short in stride so he can gain yardage after the catch. Even on a medium, slant it is possible he would read blitz and run a shorter slant. I will agree there are some issues in PBP, but you choose a real poor example.

[The_herd]

You can pick a situation from real life to defend just about anything that happens in text sims. But that doesn't make it the norm, and it doesn't mean that its ok. When oddities like Bill posted are a regular theme, then they need addressed.

You can't name 1 example of a team taking that large of a cap hit on a trade. Keyshawn was traded for multipul 1st round picks. The Hershel and Ricky (I'm assuming you mean the Ditka trade to aquire him) trade's are lesson's in what not to do, and if I saw an trade similar to these in a game I would still want it fixed.

The Cowboys and Niners are bad examples of poor cap management. That was early on in free agency and teams have learned that restructuring deals every year in order to push back the money owed isn't a good way of beating the cap. The Ravens loaded up for Super Bowl runs knowing they were going to take a big hit, which leaves me wondering if the AI teams in TPF can do the same.

Playcalling does need tightened up a bit. The examples you give are short yardage situations for the offense, which will be debated by any fan. However, coming out in a Dime when the offense has 1st and goal at the 4 is poor playcalling by the AI in anyone's book.

What it comes down to is making the game feel right. These are all valid, constructive criticism's that, at the very least, should be looked at. Pulling out rare, real life examples to defend the engine isn't making the game any better.

[pjstp20]

Well said Herd

[hukarez]

Welp. Seems like 1.38 is already out as of yesterday.

[Bill Abner]

Herd pretty much summed it up but I'll try to address certain points. It's the patterns that matter, not the individual circumstance. These were all patterns that I saw. Perhaps I should have been a bit clearer about that. In fact, if these were rare occurrences I think it would be a PLUS for the game. The occasional crazy trade would be pretty cool. Like you said, it happens. The SS trade was but one example. TPF, in its current state, is too easy to either keep a team together or continuously trade to keep your team loaded. It reminds me of FoF 1 and 2 when you could trade your way to a championship team each season. But even in your examples, Walker, Johnson, and Williams played and started for those teams. The QB I traded was a 9 mil cap hit sitting the bench for the CPU. You can call that a bad trade; I call that bad trade logic.

As for the dead money issue, I'm still figuring out how TPF handles money, but the team that had 41 million in dead cap money entered the college draft with something like 19 players on the team. I am now in week 1 preseason and St. Paul (the team in question) has *23* undrafted free agents on the roster.

Playcalling: That wasn't my point about odd calls. I'm a Browns fan. We had Bruce Arians run our offense. I know all about head scratching calls. My point was that the play in question didn't make any sense. First and goal at the 4 and my DC calls a Dime? They run off tackle and score? Can I fire this guy now? Again, this is a pattern in the game, esp. defensive play calling. (Unless you coach the games yourself)

Finally, as for the slant, I do think it's a good example because it leaves you guessing as to what happened. There are many instances in the game when you call a specific play and end up with results that are a bit odd. It leaves you to guess -- what happened? How did I lose 8 yards on a 36 Slam? Did my WR break off the route on that deep curl that netted me 6 yards? Did my QB audible? The PbP will say the QB makes an audible but in the end calls the play you selected. So which is it? Is this a problem in the game or just vanilla PbP? It reminds me of OOTP, a game that I love, in that the PbP makes no senses at times. When an E speed runner beats out a double play, or a guy with an E range repeatedly makes diving one handed catches on the run. How do these things happen? In the case of the slant, all the PbP needs to do in that instance is to tell the player "The WR broke his route short" or "The rush forced an early throw by Smith." As is, when I call a medium pass (be it a slant, cross, flag, post, whatever) and my QB completes the pas to the primary receiver for 3 yards, I think it's at least fair to question the result if the PbP isn't clear as to what happened on the play. You disagree, and that' fine. But I think it's at least worth discussing. As to questioning how much football I watch on TV, let's not go there. Don't make me bring the wife on the forum LOL

But let me add that with the 1.38 patch, I am really starting to like TPF. Arlie is doing a fantastic job of plugging up the holes as they appear. I think those that dismissed the game based on early returns should give the game another look. It's not perfect by any stretch (neither is FoF) but I think it's well worth a look at this point.

Edit: Todd, I really want to see MVP. I thought last year's game was a good start, only a few serious flaws kinda ruined it. When it comes to EA Sports and baseball I'm still gonna hold my breath until I see the final product, but it sure looks good on paper. I'll try to get an early review copy from EA and I'll let you know how it looks. They're pretty anal about early copies anymore, but I'll see what I can do.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

There are many instances in the game when you call a specific play and end up with results that are a bit odd.

This is a very good point about most text sims actually, not just TPF, that I hope any other developers reading this will take note ot. When an odd result occurs, without some feedback we have no way of knowing if we're dealing with a game engine problem that needs tweaking, a bug that needs fixing, or a cool, quirky, unusual result. There are things that *could* happen to cause an 8-yard loss on 36 slam, an E-speeded runner to beat out a double play on a grounder to short, or a punter to make the tackle after a 2-yard return, but they aren't likely, so if we see such a result, we need to know why.

[MizzouRah]

Edit: Todd, I really want to see MVP. I thought last year's game was a good start, only a few serious flaws kinda ruined it. When it comes to EA Sports and baseball I'm still gonna hold my breath until I see the final product, but it sure looks good on paper. I'll try to get an early review copy from EA and I'll let you know how it looks. They're pretty anal about early copies anymore, but I'll see what I can do.

That would be great. I know the boys at IGN have really been enjoying this game thus far.


Todd

[miked]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

This is a very good point about most text sims actually, not just TPF, that I hope any other developers reading this will take note ot. When an odd result occurs, without some feedback we have no way of knowing if we're dealing with a game engine problem that needs tweaking, a bug that needs fixing, or a cool, quirky, unusual result. There are things that *could* happen to cause an 8-yard loss on 36 slam, an E-speeded runner to beat out a double play on a grounder to short, or a punter to make the tackle after a 2-yard return, but they aren't likely, so if we see such a result, we need to know why.

This is a very good point. What would be more helpful on 3rd and 8 if it's a 3 yd completion is "The QB felt the pressure and had to throw early" or "WR broke off his pattern and was stopped immediately" or something just to explain a weird result. Or when your RB gets nailed with a 7 yd loss, "RB ran into some trouble and tried to turn it the other way before getting mobbed" or something. Little things like that would dismiss most quirky results PBP output.

[HornedFrog Purple]

I hope this isn't interpreted as a slam, just an honest question.

If this game had come out 4 weeks later than it did (about a halfway point between when it originally came out and now and assuming the workrate done to fix/improve it was the same), is it safe to assume that the public relations problem on initial release would have been greatly subsided?

[druez]

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

The QB I traded was a 9 mil cap hit sitting the bench for the CPU. You can call that a bad trade; I call that bad trade logic.

Playcalling: That wasn't my point about odd calls. I'm a Browns fan. We had Bruce Arians run our offense. I know all about head scratching calls. My point was that the play in question didn't make any sense. First and goal at the 4 and my DC calls a Dime? They run off tackle and score? Can I fire this guy now? Again, this is a pattern in the game, esp. defensive play calling. (Unless you coach the games yourself)

Finally, as for the slant, I do think it's a good example because it leaves you guessing as to what happened. There are many instances in the game when you call a specific play and end up with results that are a bit odd. It leaves you to guess -- what happened? How did I lose 8 yards on a 36 Slam? Did my WR break off the route on that deep curl that netted me 6 yards? Did my QB audible? The PbP will say the QB makes an audible but in the end calls the play you selected. So which is it? Is this a problem in the game or just vanilla PbP? It reminds me of OOTP, a game that I love, in that the PbP makes no senses at times. When an E speed runner beats out a double play, or a guy with an E range repeatedly makes diving one handed catches on the run. How do these things happen? In the case of the slant, all the PbP needs to do in that instance is to tell the player "The WR broke his route short" or "The rush forced an early throw by Smith." As is, when I call a medium pass (be it a slant, cross, flag, post, whatever) and my QB completes the pas to the primary receiver for 3 yards, I think it's at least fair to question the result if the PbP isn't clear as to what happened on the play. You disagree, and that' fine. But I think it's at least worth discussing. As to questioning how much football I watch on TV, let's not go there. Don't make me bring the wife on the forum LOL

To the PBP anomiles I agree, they happen in just about every text based game i've played. Where a lack of description or a generic description makes you scratch your head. I think that is the point you are making. If I understand you right, you are stating that you understand that a slant can be run short of the first down, you just want to know what happened to make it be that way?

On a side note It took CM about 5 or 6 years to get to the point where there text was pretty unique and descriptive.

Now that you explained your points in more depth they all make alot more sense. I do alot of coaching myself, so I don't see the AI calling bad of plays for my team, nor does it seem to be that way when I play against them.

As to the trade thing, I don't put alot of stock into it. Trades are pretty low in occurance these days in football and most teams are built through the draft and free agency. But there are stud QB's who sit the bench that make a ton of money. "Tim Couch" "Jeff George" I know if we try we can all think of others. Or maybe this season if Brunel goes to the Redskins and then looses his job to Ramsey.

One last thing, you said the defense called a 4-3 dime? That is weird and is probably a problem, because there is no such thing as a 4-3 dime. Dime means 6 db's 1 lb and 4 dl. So, that is something arlie needs to look at.

Herd, while I agree the trade AI should indeed be a bit stronger. I do want the computer from time to time to make real bad trades. Its football and I find GM's like Matt Millen amusing and part of the game. It should be based on the GM's ratings I suppose and not random....

Also, remember one thing when scouting, players will look different when they are on your team or if they are on another team. So a player that may be a 4.0 on your team, might only be a 3.0 when not on your team. Or at least that is how I think it can work. Maybe Arlie can explain that more.

Basically, you get your ratings on your players on your team from your coaching staff, but other teams and free agents etc... are based on your budget for scouting of positions.

[Bill Abner]

Originally Posted by druez

To the PBP anomiles I agree, they happen in just about every text based game i've played. Where a lack of description or a generic description makes you scratch your head. I think that is the point you are making. If I understand you right, you are stating that you understand that a slant can be run short of the first down, you just want to know what happened to make it be that way?

Oh, TPF is by no means alone in this. I agree. And yes, I fully realize that any play can end up with results that on the surface look strange. You need the context of that play to get a better understanding. Without that added description, you're left wondering if it's an engine problem (a medium pass going for 3 yards) or if the CB jammed the WR or a LB blitzing forced the QB to make a hot read.

Originally Posted by druez

As to the trade thing, I don't put alot of stock into it. Trades are pretty low in occurance these days in football and most teams are built through the draft and free agency. But there are stud QB's who sit the bench that make a ton of money. "Tim Couch" "Jeff George" I know if we try we can all think of others. Or maybe this season if Brunel goes to the Redskins and then looses his job to Ramsey.

Well, Couch wasn't traded for to make 9 mil to sit on the bench. He just happened to end up there. And if Couch doesn't restructure, he's out of Cleveland. (BTW, yes a player will look different from team to team. That QB was a 4 "star" player for me and a 3.5 for the team I traded him to.) Still, if they already had a 3.5 star player, why the need for a 33 year old making big moolah to hold a clipboard? I'm all for experienced backups, but damn! But the thing about the trades is that I'm just finding it too easy to trade for what I want every off season. Sure I can make a house rule limiting this stuff, but should I have to do that?

Example: Today I made this trade: My Oline needed a boost at guard. My guy last year somehow gave up *21* sacks as a GUARD. He had to go. Now. I go to the player database and find this 6'7 guard named Robert Jones. 25 years old. 4 stars. Bad ass player. Potential All pro IMO. High durability. I want him. His contract? He has a 1 year deal worth 477K. I have no idea how he has this contract...but he does. I'll resign him after this season and pay him what he wants. I have cap space. I have yet to see a player in TPF refuse to sit down with you when doing contract stuff so I'm confident I can resign him. Last year Jones allowed 4 sacks and had 18 pancakes. I ended up trading to get him by offering:

A 28 year old 3 star DE who also has 1 year left on his deal making 1.29 mil. He started for me last season and did the following: 2 sacks, 9 tackles. NINE tackles! He started 16 games and registered 9 friggin' tackles and 2 sacks. The year prior he had 8 sacks and 22 tackles. I also toss in my 5th round pick in this draft and my 5th round pick in the following year's draft. This is a very typical trade in TPF. I can do this every year. So I traded away a big time underachieving DE, making 1.29 mil and two 5th round picks for an All-Pro caliber OG (remember he's also just 25 yrs old) making 477K this year. So I saved $$, got a MUCH better player, and gave up two draft picks that will most likely be role players anyway. To top it off, Carson City (the team I was dealing with) now has a 1.5 star bum playing guard. Bad move, boys.

Originally Posted by druez

One last thing, you said the defense called a 4-3 dime? That is weird and is probably a problem, because there is no such thing as a 4-3 dime. Dime means 6 db's 1 lb and 4 dl. So, that is something arlie needs to look at.

Yep they'e all over the gamelogs. Example:

Bismarck ball, Quarter:1, Time:12:21, Down:1-8, on Hollywood 8 BIS 0, HOL 0
Offense: Inside Run, Set: Double TE; Defense: Stop Run, Set: 3-4 Dime
RB R. Bullard runs for 0 yards. So, what's worse: the fact that we are seeing a 3-4 Dime "Stop Run"...or the fact that this team had double TEs against that defense and got zero yards.

Originally Posted by druez

Herd, while I agree the trade AI should indeed be a bit stronger. I do want the computer from time to time to make real bad trades. Its football and I find GM's like Matt Millen amusing and part of the game. It should be based on the GM's ratings I suppose and not random....

I absolutely agree with this. The game has owner personailities; I think it would be very cool to have GM personalities as well.

[Arles]

For the 4-3 dime, there is a difference. I probably should have worded it different, but you can play a dime package with either 4 DL and 1 LB or 3 DL and 2 LB. So, a 4-3 Dime has 4 DL, 1 LB and 6 DBs. A 3-4 dime has 3 DL, 2 LB and 6 DBs. To see examples of this you need to look no further than the SB teams. Carolina goes with 4 down linemen in their dime package, whereas New England only uses 3.

On the trade AI, you really have to know the other team's view of the player as well. Maybe your opponent viewed the DE as a 3.5 star guy and the OG as a 3.5 star guy as well (instead of your 3 and 4 star view). But, I think that was a bad deal for the team considering what they had left at guard (maybe they had an injury there as well). I would also like to know how much that 4-star guard costs to resign. Maybe the team wanted to get something for him and figured they couldn't resign him.

All that said, I certainly agree that this area and the PBP are two where some clean up is neccessary. For the trade AI, I tried to balance team needs, value, age and contract (size and length), not to mention the player's ability and performance. Also, because of the scouting system, some teams will have poor emphasis on opposing players. This may end up with them over (or under) valueing a player on your team. The only way to get around this is to have the AI use absolute ratings which would be cheating, IMO. Finally, there is also a chance that you have overvalued a player you went after. In my testing, there were a few times where I grabbed a 4-star DE in a deal, only to see him stink it up because he was really only a 3-star guy (I had a below average pro scout). You can always check in the player editor to get a true evaluation of a player. I did that a bunch when looking at wierd trades in earlier versions. Sometimes the deals aren't as bad as they look when you know the "truth".

Also, it's very hard to consistently get a good player (3.5 star or better) without giving something equally as good in return for most cases. There will certainly be exceptions, but it's not something I've seen anyone reproduce in regularity. And, through numerous posts on the game in its recent state, I haven't seen anyone be able to assemble a top championship team by ripping off the AI in trades. In fact, there are three threads on our forums where people are saying it's almost too hard to get quality players in deals.

[druez]

I enjoyed the discussion Bill. One last thing I would like to comment on. When I judge a first gen game, I usually give them a bit more leadway then when I do a second or 3rd generation game. I notice alot of other people do this also.

My thinking on this, is we need to reward companies for taking risks, but we can't allow them to sit on their laurels and only let them enhance a few minor things and call it a new version. This is something I've felt Jim has done for a while with FOF. Its a great sim, but he in my opinion has done nothing to really enhance the game leaps and bounds over the last 5 years.

Something like a 2d engine replay system, or some type of sound effect during the game. Voice PBP or even a radio style PBP. FOF doesn't take chances, so its the reason why I have issues giving it an outstanding review even though this is the best version of FOF to date. Thoughts?

There are quite often times where the 2nd or 3rd gen game, is indeed a better product then the origonal but reviewers score it lower then the first. How do you feel about that Bill. Do you give first gen games a bit more leadway and then get harsher as the versions roll on down the line?

[wheels]

Originally Posted by Bill Abner

Oh, TPF is by no means alone in this. I agree. And yes, I fully realize that any play can end up with results that on the surface look strange. You need the context of that play to get a better understanding. Without that added description, you're left wondering if it's an engine problem (a medium pass going for 3 yards) or if the CB jammed the WR or a LB blitzing forced the QB to make a hot read.



Well, Couch wasn't traded for to make 9 mil to sit on the bench. He just happened to end up there. And if Couch doesn't restructure, he's out of Cleveland. (BTW, yes a player will look different from team to team. That QB was a 4 "star" player for me and a 3.5 for the team I traded him to.) Still, if they already had a 3.5 star player, why the need for a 33 year old making big moolah to hold a clipboard? I'm all for experienced backups, but damn! But the thing about the trades is that I'm just finding it too easy to trade for what I want every off season. Sure I can make a house rule limiting this stuff, but should I have to do that?

Example: Today I made this trade: My Oline needed a boost at guard. My guy last year somehow gave up *21* sacks as a GUARD. He had to go. Now. I go to the player database and find this 6'7 guard named Robert Jones. 25 years old. 4 stars. Bad ass player. Potential All pro IMO. High durability. I want him. His contract? He has a 1 year deal worth 477K. I have no idea how he has this contract...but he does. I'll resign him after this season and pay him what he wants. I have cap space. I have yet to see a player in TPF refuse to sit down with you when doing contract stuff so I'm confident I can resign him. Last year Jones allowed 4 sacks and had 18 pancakes. I ended up trading to get him by offering:

A 28 year old 3 star DE who also has 1 year left on his deal making 1.29 mil. He started for me last season and did the following: 2 sacks, 9 tackles. NINE tackles! He started 16 games and registered 9 friggin' tackles and 2 sacks. The year prior he had 8 sacks and 22 tackles. I also toss in my 5th round pick in this draft and my 5th round pick in the following year's draft. This is a very typical trade in TPF. I can do this every year. So I traded away a big time underachieving DE, making 1.29 mil and two 5th round picks for an All-Pro caliber OG (remember he's also just 25 yrs old) making 477K this year. So I saved $$, got a MUCH better player, and gave up two draft picks that will most likely be role players anyway. To top it off, Carson City (the team I was dealing with) now has a 1.5 star bum playing guard. Bad move, boys.



Yep they'e all over the gamelogs. Example:

Bismarck ball, Quarter:1, Time:12:21, Down:1-8, on Hollywood 8 BIS 0, HOL 0
Offense: Inside Run, Set: Double TE; Defense: Stop Run, Set: 3-4 Dime
RB R. Bullard runs for 0 yards. So, what's worse: the fact that we are seeing a 3-4 Dime "Stop Run"...or the fact that this team had double TEs against that defense and got zero yards.



I absolutely agree with this. The game has owner personailities; I think it would be very cool to have GM personalities as well.

bill,

it is certainly good to see you here (finally). please keep up the thoughtful and constructive criticism. you've persuaded me to to buy games in the past, and to stay away from some.

[Senator]

I have yet to read, see, or been given an answer on this subject. Some of you clowns know this off the top of your head.


I am in Texas. My friend is in Alaska. We want to play TPF head to head, online, each one calling the plays of their respective teams and watching the results. I don't want to install a "game plan", I want to call my plays and have my friend call his plays and see the results appear on screen. Can this game do this?

Thx.

[ScottVib]

Originally Posted by Senator

I have yet to read, see, or been given an answer on this subject. Some of you clowns know this off the top of your head.


I am in Texas. My friend is in Alaska. We want to play TPF head to head, online, each one calling the plays of their respective teams and watching the results. I don't want to install a "game plan", I want to call my plays and have my friend call his plays and see the results appear on screen. Can this game do this?

Thx.

There is no head to head play calling capabilities in TPF. Sorry.

[Senator]

Thanks Scott.

This isn't an ender for me personally, but I play in a league where we use Action head to head, and we enjoy the competition, we were looking at possible alternatives, and I told them this might be it.