OT: Alexandria/Herndon VA Area

[CamEdwards]

All Northern VA residents: How much would you say a middle class family of five (or six) need to make to live comfortably in that area?

[dacman]

Depends on your definition of middle class, but probably $60-70,000 -- houses in that area are pricey.

[QuikSand]

Wow. I can't imagine living in that area for $70K.

Again, it depends on your definition of "middle class" but a reasonable 4-bedroom townhome in that area will run you $300,000 or more.

[Primal]

http://www.salary.com/ has a great cost of living calculator about 1/2 down the page.

[John Galt]

I think there is a big difference between Herndon and Alexandria COL-wise. Alexandria, especially some hot spots, is much pricier than Herndon. I think QS is right that 300K for a 4 bedroom townhouse is definitely possible in Herndon, but I think less so in Alexandria unless it is an old, rundown place. In Herndon, you can also find much cheaper single family homes that are older than those created during the internet boom.

It is always hard to say how much you need to live because it really depends on debt and leverage. A lot of people in that area aren't high income, but are heavily in debt - it seems to be a common NOVA trend.

If you are seriously looking in Herndon, PM me - my mom lives there so I know a bunch about the area.

[Samdari]

I think Alexandria and Herndon are probably very different (Herndon being a much longer commute to DC). Most townhomes are of the 3 bedroom variety, and one in Alexandria will easily cost you 300K. I have never priced Herndon, but I would imagine it would be cheaper.

I bought a 4 bedroom colonial in October 2001, for $250,000, when that was typical of my subdivision. Now, typical of my subdivision is $350,000-$375,000. I would think it would be very difficult to do so on 60-70k as well.

Actually Cam, I moved here from from Oklahoma, and there was a feeling of sticker shock. I (and moreso my wife) was woefully underpaid in OK, and am generously overpaid here, so we actually increased our disposable income by a factor of 10 by moving. You should definitely expect a salary bump of at least 30% to be able to live at the same standard. I was nervous about being able to survive here, so asked for what I thought was an ungodly 45% increase in salary. They did not even blink, and as it turns out, I underpriced myself slightly.

[dacman]

I was hitting the low end -- you probably need more like $100k to be "comfortable" and that would be in the less pricey areas. My sister lives in Alex, but very close to Fairfax and $300,000 there would get you a 1500 sq. ft. (which is small) house.

edit: My parents pulled it off at $70k, but that was 1995-8, so maybe things have changed a lot since then?

If you do move, and need lawn and lanscaping services, my brother-in-law can hook you up. http://www.b-rushing.com

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by dacman

edit: My parents pulled it off at $70k, but that was 1995-8, so maybe things have changed a lot since then?

housing prices have gone up 10%-20% per year since then.

[Hijinx]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

All Northern VA residents: How much would you say a middle class family of five (or six) need to make to live comfortably in that area?

hmm... it depends on how you define "comfortable", and how much debt you might be carrying.

I think 75-80K is about is about the bottom end of comfortable.

If you're working in Herndon, you might want to look a bit further south. If you live in Manassas and drive, you could find that housing is a lot more affordable.

[Dutch]

My folks live there and I consider them upper-middle class there and own a 350k - 400k house. If they decided on a whim to move to Sherveport they would probably be richest people in town that weren't "old" money. So yeah, the area is probably just as expensive as LA or SF or NY.

[CamEdwards]

interesting stuff. Thanks, guys.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Hijinx

If you live in Manassas and drive, you could find that housing is a lot more affordable.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

interesting stuff. Thanks, guys.

Why do you ask?

I'm looking at N. Va. as well... lots of tech jobs... and I'll probably live in Manassas and commute to afford it.

[Dutch]

Manassas is not really that far of a commute and a great area.

[Turd Ferguson]

Go to coldwellbanker.com it has a house price index thingy somewhere on there. Although I can't see why anyone lives in Northern Virginia, such a crappy place to live.
Try to get your kids (if you have any) into a good school like Hylton. That was one of the nicest high schools around when I lived up there.

[Dutch]

I had a blast when I lived in NOVA. Of course that was a couple 2...3 moons ago.

[JeeberD]

Ya getting a job with an east coast station, Cammy?

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Why do you ask?

I'm looking at N. Va. as well... lots of tech jobs... and I'll probably live in Manassas and commute to afford it.

guys in NOVA may not agree, but think Fredericksburg.....

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Ya getting a job with an east coast station, Cammy?

Yah, I am curious too.

[Subby]

It all depends on what kind of commute you can deal with. My wife and I lived in Loudoun County for five years and did a 70 mile round trip commute every day (we both worked downton in DC). It was miserable. We felt our lives slipping away as we spent up to two plus hours per day in the car.

In 2001 we moved inside the Beltway (to McLean) and had our commuting times cut by more than 60%. Living 8 miles from work will do that. I will never ever live far away from work again. I have colleagues that live in Fredericksburg and Mannassas and the other way-out suburbs and their commutes are god-awful. Some days it takes them two and a half hours to just get into work.

How do you feel about new construction? Because in the outer-lying, "affordable" suburbs that is almost all there is. Poorly constructed, small lotted, depressing sameness. You go out on your deck and see your fat neighbor sunbathing. That kind of stuff. Yes there are established neighborhoods, but they are the exception.

We were fortunate to buy a fixer-upper five bedroom in McLean in 2001 for 350K. We have a pretty big family (four kids) so we needed a single family home. A townhouse might work for your guys, but suprisingly, townhomes aren't a TON cheaper than single family units.

One place to consider might be Reston. It is a planned community, but was built in the 60s and has matured nicely. It is in Fairfax Co., so you can be assured that the schools are some of the best in the country. There are miles of walking trails, lots of water, lots of sports fields, and a ton of convenient but well-placed shopping. Reston also isn't as god-awful far away as some of the other 'burbs.

As far as income is concerned, it all depends. When my wife and I had two kids in daycare, we both needed to work. Now she stays home and we get buy on my salary. I have great benefits (I work at a non-profit) so that helps immensely - but we definitely have to cut corners - we shop at Costco, use public schools, don't take big vacations, drive a Kia Sedona, etc... All that said, we live comfortably. We have DirectTv and TiVo and DSL and a library card. That's really all you need.

Anyway - let me know if you need any other information. I love it here.

[CamEdwards]

interesting stuff. It's just something that we're looking at right now as we plan for the future. Next year would be a good time to move if we're going to make a change, and that area's close enough to my wife's family that we could see them more often, yet not close enough that it would be an every weekend occurance.

[CamEdwards]

dola: I'm spoiled when it comes to commuting (I have a four minute drive to work) and I'm spoiled by housing (75k for a 1800 sq ft. home), so anywhere in the country is likely to send me into culture shock.

[Subby]

There are a redonkulous amount of Republicans here, so you'll like that

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Dutch

My folks live there and I consider them upper-middle class there and own a 350k - 400k house. If they decided on a whim to move to Sherveport they would probably be richest people in town that weren't "old" money. So yeah, the area is probably just as expensive as LA or SF or NY.

Don't go that far. NOVA can't even come close to NYC in terms of cost of living. $300,000 in Manhattan will get you a run down studio smaller than a closet in most states. And you will have to pay coop/maintenance fees higher than most people's rent on top of your mortgage. In Brooklyn and Queens, you'll get a little more, but the cost of living here blows everything else in the US away. London and Tokyo are probably the only cities that can compete with NYC cost of living.

Cam, you are certainly in for a little sticker shock simply because big family homes are a bit pricier, but overall the area isn't bad. Schools are great (although I'm a product of Fairfax County schools - so you can be the judge). And you will fit in all too well politically.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Subby

There are a redonkulous amount of Republicans here, so you'll like that

dola, Subby beat me to it.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Fritz

guys in NOVA may not agree, but think Fredericksburg.....

I think that is crazy talk if you are commuting to DC. Commuting to the rest of NOVA, maybe, but that place is waaayyyyy far away.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by John Galt

London and Tokyo are probably the only cities that can compete with NYC cost of living.

San Francisco has actually passed NYC as the most expensive city to live in in the US.

Fairfax County, while expensive, does not approach either.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Samdari

San Francisco has actually passed NYC as the most expensive city to live in in the US.

Fairfax County, while expensive, does not approach either.

I don't know where you read that - it would blow my mind.

Looking at this salary calculator, you need to make 14% more in Manhattan than in SF if you own property to live the same lifestyle. And that doesn't even factor in that a NYC apartment of the same size sucks compared to an equivalent size SF apartment.

http://www.homefair.com/homefair/ser...07&ownrent=own

[moriarty]

Just to give you another data point, I live in Potomac Falls (actually part of Sterling, but they changed the name because Sterling had a 'negative' image), but I work in Herndon. It's about a 15 minute commute since I don't have to drive on rte 7.

We bought a house last year for 400k, 10 years old, 4 bedrooms, 3 1/2 baths - good size, but probably what you need for a family of six. Comparible townhouses in the area were ~350k. You can go to a mortgage site and do some quick calcs. on what your monthly mortgage would be in this range.

Alexandria has some great spots (especially old town), but you'd pay alot more. The closer to DC, the more pricey. We even looked at Reston near the town center, and the 10 or so miles closer in made enough of a difference that we bought further out.

I came from NYC, so the cost of living seems much here, but I would definitely factor in differences between tax rates and sales taxes to figure out how much you would need to live of of.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I don't know where you read that - it would blow my mind.

Looking at this salary calculator, you need to make 14% more in Manhattan than in SF if you own property to live the same lifestyle. And that doesn't even factor in that a NYC apartment of the same size sucks compared to an equivalent size SF apartment.

http://www.homefair.com/homefair/ser...07&ownrent=own

The federal government's locality pay is based upon cost of living, and is higher in SF than anywhere. Its actually higher in Houston than NYC.

And a free internet calculator? Would it surprise you if they were using five year old data? Wouldn' surprise me.

Try this

What is happening, is that while the NYC area is ever expanding, thus providing people who need to be near NYC cheaper alternatives for housing than in Manhattan, SF has geographic boundaries that prevent that from happening.

Don't get your panties in a bunch John, nobody is saying that its cheap there.

Cam, you might want to look at that too, but more to see that OKC makes the list of cheapest cities.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Samdari

The federal government's locality pay is based upon cost of living, and is higher in SF than anywhere. Its actually higher in Houston than NYC.

And a free internet calculator? Would it surprise you if they were using five year old data? Wouldn' surprise me.

Try this

What is happening, is that while the NYC area is ever expanding, thus providing people who need to be near NYC cheaper alternatives for housing than in Manhattan, SF has geographic boundaries that prevent that from happening.

Don't get your panties in a bunch John, nobody is saying that its cheap there.

Cam, you might want to look at that too, but more to see that OKC makes the list of cheapest cities.

I'm not upset - it just doesn't match my experience. My law firm pays the same salary no matter which office we work in. I've been out to SF and seen where people making the same wage I do and I envy them for what they can afford.

As for the NYC expansion, we have a lot of geography issues as Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, and Staten Island are completely packed on islands and the Bronx is pretty filled as well. And moving to NJ ensures two taxmen harass you and take money.

Trust me, I'm not trying to start a fight over this, I'm just trying to figure out where I'm moving next - NYC is just not a place for long term savings.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I'm not upset - it just doesn't match my experience.

I agree with JG on this one. Having lived in both San Francisco and NYC (and now northern VA), NYC definitely was more expensive to me - at least from a rent/tax standpoint. I saved money in San Fran, whereas it was near impossible in NYC despite not owning a car.

Of course there's a lot of variety in both cities. I lived in Manhattan, but if you compare Snob Hill with outer Brooklyn, then San Fran would seem more pricey.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I think that is crazy talk if you are commuting to DC. Commuting to the rest of NOVA, maybe, but that place is waaayyyyy far away.

I have friends that light rail in every day. They say they use the time to read the paper, etc.

----
Funny that you and Subby say that it is Republicanville up there. NOVA and Richmond Metro tend to vote dem (if I recall). Of course, most of the country is to the left of Hampton Roads.

[Samdari]

Well guys, I came about this piece of information by actually taking your side of the argument with a mortgage broker in this area. I could not imagine anywhere being more expensive than Manhattan. She assured me that based on property sale values - the San Fran area had passed NY, NY in housing cost. I have not actually seen any of the data. She acted like she knew, so I believed her.

And those people who light rail it from Fredericksburg to DC, they are insane, just not quite as insane as the drivers. It is still a minimum of two hours from leaving their house to being at their desks (its 1.5 hours on the train). Even if you can read the paper, it still makes your time commitent
to work 4 hours more than the day itself. Ugh, I could never do it.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Fritz

I have friends that light rail in every day. They say they use the time to read the paper, etc.

----
Funny that you and Subby say that it is Republicanville up there. NOVA and Richmond Metro tend to vote dem (if I recall). Of course, most of the country is to the left of Hampton Roads.

Really, I've never really looked at the breakdown. I know the area is very pro-choice which is how Wilder got elected, but when you stare at the NRA headquarters all the time and you talk about issues like welfare and affirmative action, you start to think the whole community would elect Pat Buchanan. Maybe Alexandria and Arlington are a bit more liberal and that affects things. I just know growing up in Fairfax, Burke, Centreville, and Oakton, I thought everyone was a Republican. I remember in grade school, I was the only kid who said his parents were voting for Carter (1 other said Anderson). But yeah, Hampton Roads is really scary.

[Toddzilla]

Cam,

I live in Burke VA (southern Fairfax Co.) w/ two kids. My wife and I paid $220K for our house, and its a 30-45 min. commute to Reston in rush hour. We both used to work in the District, and that was a 90-120 min. commute by orselves, or 45-60 min. commute w/ a slug. To live *comfortably* (and there's alot of ambiguity in that word), I would expect $85K-$95K to do it. Alot, of course, depends on car payments, debt, etc., but the cost of living, while not as high as the humongous cities, is up there...

[Hijinx]

fwiw, I love living in NoVA now - but I hated it when I was doing field consulting and driving all over creation (couldn't metro on most days) but now that I'm doing a 20 minute commute (springfield to alexandria) I love the area.

We decided last weekend to pack up the kids and hit the smithsonian natural history museum, spent a couple of hours there and had a blast. for free even (had to pay a couple of dollars to feed the meters)

there's a ton of stuff to do around here. NGA, many smithsonians, and the monuments are really nice - I like to visit them at night when it's cool and there's not so many toursists. the FDR memorial at night is really amazing, especially if you get there when the cherry trees are in bloom.

There's 6 flags, Kings Dominion, and Bush Gardens in the area - KD and 6F are both about an hour away from the south side of the beltway. There's always concerts, symphonies, and plays at the Kennedy Center and Wolftrap. There's plenty of great restaurants, except possibly for the fact that it's hard to find good mexican food.

There's always tons of stuff to do - plenty of it is free - you just have to make the most of it.

and if you have any kind of tech experience and a security clearance, you are in pretty good shape.