A Comparison between FOF and NFL stats

Easy Mac · 02-16-2004, 07:03 PM

Just thought I'd do this because there hadn't been a statistical thread in a while. I am beginning by comparing the FOF career passing records against the NFL career passing records. I just completed the 16th season of my league, and I thought it would be a good time to compare some records with those of the NFL. So here are the first numbers. I intend to do this will most major statistical season and career records, though it may take a while, since I'm supposed to be writing 2 papers tonight.

Looking at the career passing records, the NFL is pretty well ahead at this point. Almost all of the FOF players in the top 5 have finished their careers, and the ones that snuck on are at the tail end. Granted, we're missing about 3 years of Peyton Manning, but otherwise, Carr doesn't have very many yards from last year. This career is not experiencing a high number of 4000 yards passing from one player. I have the injury setting on 200, so that may be the reason the numbers are low, as most QB's aren't durable and these are the few who have survived.

Code:

Career Records	(*still active)
 
 FOF Completions		NFL Completions
 P. Manning	4497		D. Marino	4967
 D. Carr	3702		J. Elway	4123
 B. Leftwich	3556		W. Moon		3988
 *M. Durham	3422		*B. Farve	3960
 *B. Richardson	3271		F. Tarkenton	3686
 
 
 FOF Passing Yards		NFL Passing Yards
 P. Manning	52737		D. Marino	61361
 D. Carr	49045		J. Elway	51475
 B. Leftwich	43547		W. Moon		49325
 T. Green	37687		F. Tarkenton	47003
 *M. Durham	37357		*B. Farve	45646
 
 
 FOF Passing TD's		NFL Passing TD's
 P. Manning	339		D. Marino	420
 D. Carr	336		*B. Favre	346
 B. Leftwich	254		F. Tarkenton	342
 T. Green	244		J. Elway	300
 *E. Atkins	236		W. Moon		291

Noop · 02-16-2004, 07:09 PM

*Earmuffs* Wow that is some fucking great shit. Seriously that is interesting I might try it but I can no longer stand playing that game.

noop

hukarez · 02-16-2004, 07:10 PM

I'm guessing this is the original FOF? Not FOF2K4?

JonInMiddleGA · 02-16-2004, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I have the injury setting on 200, so that may be the reason the numbers are low, as most QB's aren't durable and these are the few who have survived.

Question: If the QB's are going down at a regular enough rate (on 200) to avoid the 4k yd passing issue, how many players at other positions survive long enough to play 14-16 games a year regularly?

sabotai · 02-16-2004, 07:13 PM

Hmmm, if you take Dan Marino out of the NFL stats, things start looking really good as far as comparisons go.

hukarez · 02-16-2004, 07:16 PM

I'm guessing this is FOF2K4, with regards to injury settings..something that I haven't really fiddled around with myself.

Easy Mac · 02-16-2004, 07:16 PM

This is FOF2004. And for the most part, there are a lot of 4000 yard passers, but everyone seems to go down to injury eventually (at least created players). Not many players survive 16 games every year. I've had a lot of guys last about 10 years playing 16 each year, but then they just get killed by injury. I also have seen guys have 3 or 4 great years, get hurt, then play sparingly b/c of recurring injuries, but be great in the times they get to play.

amdaily · 02-16-2004, 07:19 PM

I lost my 53 year career due to an out of memory error, but you definitely need to play another couple decades before comparing stats. They'll start falling in line a bit closer. In either case, Jim as already stated he made more changes to the stat engine for 5.0c, so....

amdaily · 02-16-2004, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

This is FOF2004. And for the most part, there are a lot of 4000 yard passers, but everyone seems to go down to injury eventually (at least created players). Not many players survive 16 games every year. I've had a lot of guys last about 10 years playing 16 each year, but then they just get killed by injury. I also have seen guys have 3 or 4 great years, get hurt, then play sparingly b/c of recurring injuries, but be great in the times they get to play.

Dola,

This is the one thing I'm still interested in knowing if it has been addressed in 5.0c or not. Once a player goes down with an injury longer than 10 weeks, he'll never play in more than 6-10 games in a season again, even if his career goes on for another 5 or 6 years.

I suspect this "super-prone" injury rating would be the culprit in any career record discrepancies.

hukarez · 02-16-2004, 07:22 PM

I guess I don't pay much close detail to stat discrepancies or the like, and to be honest...I can't find many bugs with that 5.0b release. I'm sure there are - I just haven't really been looking for them, to be honest. Still, that 53 year career thing might prove to be a bit disconcerting, as I've thoroughly enjoyed the 20 years invested so far with 3 different franchises.

Easy Mac · 02-16-2004, 07:29 PM

The differences here are a lot more obvious than the career passing leaders. So far I've found that FOF does a poor job doing running success. The top rushers in FOF have played every game in their career, but they seemed to get replaced easier later in their career. I have not seen any injuries with them, they just get replaced during their last 3 or 4 years and are backups. This process seems to happen earlier in FOF than in the real world. I'm not sure if this is due to the logicv Jim implemented that was supposed to put high potential ahead of older veterans. No matter what, the discrepancies I am seeing are pretty large. The average FOF RB's career (top 5) is 11 years, while in the NFL it is ~13-14. Those 2 years would put the numbers closer, but not quite to NFL level (expect for TD's, not sure whats up there)

Code:

 Career Records (*still active)
 
 FOF Rushes			NFL Rushes
 J. Brewer	2914		*E. Smith	4142
 *M. Derricott	2828		W. Payton	3838
 R. Verstegen	2782		*J. Bettis	3119
 *A. Schultz	2581		B. Sanders	3062
 D. Wynn	2506		M. Allen	3002
 
 
 FOF Rushing Yards		NFL Rushing Yards
 J. Brewer	12197		*E. Smith	17418
 R. Verstegen	11959		W. Payton	16726
 *M. Derricott	11581		B. Sanders	15269
 D. Wynn	11420		E. Dickerson	13259
 *A. Schultz	10701		T. Dorsett	12739
 
 
 FOF Rushing TD's		NFL Rushing TD's
 *A. Schultz	83		*E. Smith	155
 R. Verstegen	79		M. Allen	123
 M. Binn	78		W. Payton	110
 *B. Everett	78		J. Brown	106
 D. Wynn	77		J. Riggins	104

Easy Mac · 02-16-2004, 07:34 PM

Don't get me wrong, I love to play the game, and I never checked the stats until just now. Their being out of "line" don't really bother me, I just felt like checking my guys against the NFL to see how they stacked up. I just thought I would share my findings with the board to get their read on things.

And yes, if SD sees this, it doesn't matter if they match up exactly, just food for thought (i.e. tweaking the running game a bit, or at least the pass/run balance or something).

And on the super-injury thing, I've notice a lot of guys who get hurt for a long time end up being hurt more often. I've also noticed some guys can get over it, but its harder to do. I'd prefer if it wasn't like that ( it decimated some of my teams), but I live with it.

amdaily · 02-16-2004, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Don't get me wrong, I love to play the game, and I never checked the stats until just now. Their being out of "line" don't really bother me, I just felt like checking my guys against the NFL to see how they stacked up. I just thought I would share my findings with the board to get their read on things.

And yes, if SD sees this, it doesn't matter if they match up exactly, just food for thought (i.e. tweaking the running game a bit, or at least the pass/run balance or something).

And on the super-injury thing, I've notice a lot of guys who get hurt for a long time end up being hurt more often. I've also noticed some guys can get over it, but its harder to do. I'd prefer if it wasn't like that ( it decimated some of my teams), but I live with it.

The injury system really does concern me. As I've said before if a guy tears his ACL in a freak off season basketball game, he will either A) retire from it, either now or in a subsequent season from reinjuring the ACL, or B) continue playing. He does not magically become prone to every type of injury in the book such as plantar fasciitis, torn rotator cuffs, hamstrings, etc. The current injury system has no basis in reality. The end result is the same players get injured year in and year out (and likewise, another set of players play every game year in and year out) and that cannot be good for statistic output. At the very least the system should be moderated, if not totally overhauled.

No one has really taken the time to compare rushing stats, and they very well may be more out of line than the passing stats. I wish I had my long career to do some stat checking

. I'll have to look it up again, but I think Jim mentioned more tweaks in ine rushing game as well though.

Easy Mac · 02-16-2004, 07:56 PM

This is the final look at career stats, mainly because profootball-reference.com only lists offensive career stats. Well, it seems that the FOF receptions records fall just a bit short of the NFL records... and by a bit I mean a lot. Granted, Jerry Rice is a freak of nature (a la Dan Marino), but even 2nd place is off. None of the guys have been injured, so that is not the problem. It just seems there are a lot of options per team for each QB to throw too, so no one player racks up the stats. The most concerning thing is the TD's, which are off by quite a bit. The average top 5 FOF receiver has 12 years, the average NFL receiver has ~15-16 years. Most of the active FOF players should retire in a year or 2.

Code:

 Career Records (*still active)
 
 FOF Receptions			NFL Receptions
 *O. Garcia	916		*J. Rice	1519
 *B. Ochoa	839		C. Carter	1101
 *E. Clemons	807		*T. Brown	1070
 W. Benson	758		A. Reed	951
 L. Coles	752		A. Monk	940
 
 
  FOF Receiving Yards		NFL Receiving Yards
 *O. Garcia	12052		*J. Rice	22466
 *C. Berry	10919		*T. Brown	14734
 W. Benson	10557		J. Lofton	14004
 *B. Ochoa	10504		C. Carter	13899
 M. Tartabull	10409		H. Ellard	13777
 
 
 FOF Receiving TD's		NFL Recieving TD's
 W. Benton	71		*J. Rice	194
 F. Granberry	67		C. Carter	130
 *S. Lindquist	65		S. Largent	100
 M. Tartabull	64		*T. Brown	99
 *O. Garcia	64		D. Hutson	99

Swaggs · 02-16-2004, 08:11 PM

Where is the "FOF Children Slapped" column?

Easy Mac · 02-16-2004, 08:12 PM

Thats a defensive stat, or thats what Dean Houston cried in court.

Easy Mac · 02-16-2004, 09:10 PM

Now its about time to look at the season stats. There aren't huge differences in yards and completions when you take out the run and gun Raiders and Dan Marino. The numbers here are pretty good. According to profootball-reference, there have been 49 (or 50, I may have missed 1) 4,00 yard passing seasons. FOF reporter only goes out to the top 20 performances, so I can't see if those numbers line up. However, the top 20 in FOF end with #20 passing for 4316 yards. There have been 22 passers in the NFL who have passed for at least that many yards, so passing yards line up fairly well. The top 20 in completions in FOF end with 356 completions, while 20 NFL passers have at least that many completions in a season.

However, the huge discrepancy is in TD passes a season. For some reason, FOF tops out at 35 a year (or at least in every season I've simmed). Don't know if this is by design or what, but it makes the career records be off. by a bit. 47 NFL players have thrown 30 TD's, compared with 27 in my FOF league, this should be looked at.

Code:

 Season Records
 
 FOF Completions		NFL Completions
 D. Bridges	405		R. Gannon	417
 P. Manning	389		W. Moon		404
 D. Bridges	387		D. Bledsoe	400
 K. Collins	381		P. Manning	392
 B. Leftwich	379		D. Marino	385
 
 
 FOF Passing Yards		NFL Passing Yards
 D. Bridges	4799		D. Marino	5084
 D. Bridges	4685		K. Warner	4830
 D. Carr	4680		D. Fouts	4802
 B. Leftwich	4630		D. Marino	4746
 D. Carr	4604		D. Fouts	4715
 
 
 FOF Passing TD's		NFL Passing TD's
 D. Carr	35		D. Marino	48
 R. Strong	35		D. Marino	44
 T. Green	35		K. Warner	41
 D. Carr	35		B. Favre	39
 D. Carr	35		B. Favre	38

Easy Mac · 02-16-2004, 09:28 PM

The running game is fairly in line with what has been going on in the NFL. With the exception of mr. Gaddy's 461 carries, the carries are pretty much in line with the NFL. There haven't been a lot of 2000 yard seasons in my career yet, but there could be. I think this correlates to the slightly low ypc that the top carrying RB's get in FOF. I think most of the 2000 yard NFL rushers had high ypc, while in FOF they don't. As for TD's, well... its TD's, their always an anomoly in this game. I may have to check scoring overall just to see if everything matches up.

The top 20 ends with 359 carries in the FOF league, while 37 NFL players have carried the ball at least that much in the season. The top 20 ends with 1572 yards in FOF, while 37 NFL players have rushed for that much in a season. The top 20 ends with 13 TD's in FOF, while at least 50 NFL players have run for that many.

Code:

 Season Records
 
 FOF Rushes			NFL Rushes
 K. Gaddy	461		J. Anderson	410
 W. Finney	411		J. Wilder	407
 T. Barber	406		E. Dickerson	404
 H. Kennedy	398		E. George	403
 D. Salcedo	388		G. Riggs	397
 
 
 FOF Rushing Yards		NFL Rushing Yards
 W. Finney	2061		E. Dickerson	2105
 K. Gaddy	2047		J. Lewis	2066
 G. Norton	1860		B. Sanders	2053
 T. Barber	1835		T. Davis	2008
 K. Gaddy	1700		O. Simpson	2003
 
 
 FOF Rushing TD's		NFL Rushing TD's
 K. Gaddy	18		P. Holmes	27
 B. Everett	17		E. Smith	25
 J. Bettis	15		J. Riggins	24
 J. Fargas	15		5 tied with	21
 D. Salcedo	15

RPI-Fan · 02-16-2004, 09:34 PM

With the career records... consider that the NFL has about 35 years of history, while we're going off of 16. I greatly appreciate the work, Easy Mac, as it does certainly point out some issues. But after 35 years, the numbers would look moderately, if not much, closer to the NFL ones.

Ben E Lou · 02-16-2004, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

With the career records... consider that the NFL has about 35 years of history, while we're going off of 16. I greatly appreciate the work, Easy Mac, as it does certainly point out some issues. But after 35 years, the numbers would look moderately, if not much, closer to the NFL ones.

Actually more than that. Jim Brown is on the leader board. He played in the late 50's-mid 60's, did he not?

Ben E Lou · 02-16-2004, 09:40 PM

Whoa...and Don Hutson. 40's?

cthomer5000 · 02-16-2004, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Actually more than that. Jim Brown is on the leader board. He played in the late 50's-mid 60's, did he not?

The NFL is about 85 years old. I would say about 45-55 of those are statistically relevant here.

Easy Mac · 02-16-2004, 09:44 PM

Have I mentioned how much I love receptions, because there is far less to analyze, since it matches up fairly well. Both FOF and NFL have their anomoly year (Harrison and Tanner), and the rest of the receptions fall into place. FOF is a little high on the recieving yards, but they fall back into place around the 5th spot. TD's are again a little low, and adds to the idea that TD's are more spread out in FOF.

The top 20 receivers in FOF have at least 103 catches, while in the NFL 29 players have that many or more. The top 20 in receiving yards ends at 1475, while in the NFL 27 players have that many. The top 30 in receiving TD's for FOF ends with 11, while at least 50 NFL players have caught 13.

Code:

Season Records
 
 FOF Receptions			NFL Receptions
 C. Tanner	137		M. Harrison	143
 L. Cardwell	120		H. Moore	123
 W. Boehler	119		C. Carter	122
 J. Cassidy	118		J. Rice		122
 A. Crumpler	117		C. Carter	122
 
 
 FOF Receiving Yards		NFL Receiving Yards
 J. Cassidy	1972		J. Rice		1848
 T. Owens	1911		I. Bruce	1781
 C. Tanner	1882		C. Hennigan	1746
 W. Boehler	1758		M. Harrison	1722
 J. Gaffney	1737		T. Holt		1696
 
 
 FOF Receiving TD's		NFL Receiving TD's
 T. Owens	16		J. Rice		22
 C. Tanner	14		M. Clayton	18
 J. Oden	14		S. Sharpe	18
 6 tied with	13		6 tied with	17

Easy Mac · 02-16-2004, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

With the career records... consider that the NFL has about 35 years of history, while we're going off of 16. I greatly appreciate the work, Easy Mac, as it does certainly point out some issues. But after 35 years, the numbers would look moderately, if not much, closer to the NFL ones.

Yeah, I was going to mention that in another post, but I accidentally deleted it like halfway through typing it and just didn't feel like doing it.

I think the fact that the NFL is older influences seasonal numbers more than career numbers, at least in terms of the top of the top. There's more chance for a rare greatness for a season after 60 some odd years than 16, while a great career is very hard to come by.

Easy Mac · 02-16-2004, 09:48 PM

I don't know if the rushing game in FOF will ever equal on a consistent basis the NFL records, merely because of the way FOF handles rushing.

Ben E Lou · 02-16-2004, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I think the fact that the NFL is older influences seasonal numbers more than career numbers, at least in terms of the top of the top. There's more chance for a rare greatness for a season after 60 some odd years than 16, while a great career is very hard to come by.

True for the most part, but by the same logic, over a long period of time more players would "get lucky" and never get a serious injury. I say that because I assume what you're seeing (generally lower career stats than real life) is at least partially a product of the recurring injury issues.

Ben E Lou · 02-16-2004, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I don't know if the rushing game in FOF will ever equal on a consistent basis the NFL records, merely because of the way FOF handles rushing.

See post above. Didn't cthomer have a guy rush for almost 30,000 yards?

Ben E Lou · 02-16-2004, 09:53 PM

Yup...

cthomer5000 · 02-16-2004, 09:55 PM

dat boy ran so good....

amdaily · 02-16-2004, 09:57 PM

I was listening to a local radio show the other day and something really hit me when they started discussing the "decreasing role of Quaterbacks in the NFL" and then went on the cite Brady and Delhomme being unspectacular but consistent.

FOF seems to be headed in the other direction. It's all but impossible to win with a mediocre, or even a Brady type QB in FOF despite how good the rest of your team it. In my opinion to much depends on one position. I didn't own FOF4, but one thing I really didn't like jumping straight from FOF2001 to FOF2004 was that formations are now solely dependent on QB's. That's just one visible example, but I'm willing to be alot of hidden variables have either been moved or added to the QB position between the two versions.

Easy Mac · 02-16-2004, 09:58 PM

I don't think I've ever seen a computer team have a runner like that. I think its easier to pump up numbers with your own team than it is to get a computer team to have high numbers.

I would say the lower numbers are due to injury. I would start a career on 100 injury setting, but I've been doing this one since November 24, so who knows how long that one would take me.

cthomer5000 · 02-16-2004, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I don't think I've ever seen a computer team have a runner like that. I think its easier to pump up numbers with your own team than it is to get a computer team to have high numbers.

I would say the lower numbers are due to injury. I would start a career on 100 injury setting, but I've been doing this one since November 24, so who knows how long that one would take me.

Every year except the last were AI set game plans.

RPI-Fan · 02-16-2004, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amdaily

...but one thing I really didn't like...

Is there anything you do like?

amdaily · 02-16-2004, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

Is there anything you do like?

I've always been a big fan of perfection

Peregrine · 02-16-2004, 11:23 PM

There's got to be a bug or something with that Langen guy. I have a 35 year career and have seen at most 3 or 4 2000 yard seasons total in that time, one guy having 9 of them is just nuts.

dawgfan · 02-17-2004, 12:12 AM

A question for those that play FOF4 and FOF2004 - has Jim fixed the issue with punting averages and the decision-making with regard to whether to go for it on 4th down, to punt or to kick a FG depending on field position, score and the game clock?

I'm hoping if/when he puts out TCY2 that this will have been fixed...

Carligula · 02-17-2004, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgfan

A question for those that play FOF4 and FOF2004 - has Jim fixed the issue with punting averages and the decision-making with regard to whether to go for it on 4th down, to punt or to kick a FG depending on field position, score and the game clock?

I'm hoping if/when he puts out TCY2 that this will have been fixed...

Punting averages seem OK - the leaders around 44-45, the worst around 37-38.

One thing I've noticed, I don't know if anyone else has, is that clock management does seem a little off. Teams that say, trail by 2 points and have the ball at the opponent's 20 with 1:30 remaining will use their timeouts - it just gives the other team time to score after the FG. (The team on defense in that situation would of course use their own otherwise - but this way they can keep them for their own last drive.)

Darkiller · 02-17-2004, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrine

There's got to be a bug or something with that Langen guy. I have a 35 year career and have seen at most 3 or 4 2000 yard seasons total in that time, one guy having 9 of them is just nuts.

having three or four 2000 yard rushing seasons in your 35 year career looks good to me, it's basically what the NFL has in its 80 year history.
As for Zach Langen, he started at RB for 14 straight seasons (wow) and NEVER had under 1872 yards in a season : of course this is "nuts" and unthinkable as far as realism. But knowing FOF quite a bit, I believe this is the single greatest performance I've ever seen by a player, regardless of the position. I don't know if Ben tweaked his gameplan for runs, runs, and runs at will but if he didn't, then just WOW.

In all of my years in the Real49ersFootball career, I have had just one 2000 yard season, and it came from a Hall of Fame RB of mine, J.R Smedley. Of course, my gameplans have always been West-Coast oriented and I favour the short passing game and not much of a "pounding" all around running game, which is why i've sedlom had any "off the charts" runners on my teams.

One question on Zach Langen : how did your teams, as a whole, fared during his career. Did these teams win some SuperBowls ? Were they perennial contenders with him in the backfield ?

Ben E Lou · 02-17-2004, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkiller

But knowing FOF quite a bit, I believe this is the single greatest performance I've ever seen by a player, regardless of the position.

Yeah. Let me chime in here. As a rule, I have no problem with any text sim that creates once-in-a-blue-moon players who perform waaayyyyy above anything we've ever seen. Let's not forget, Jerry Rice is 400 catches, nearly 8,000 yards, and over 60 TD's ahead of the competition. If in the hundreds of years of FOF careers we've collectively played, there is ONE guy who rushes for 30,000 yards, in my opinion that is a good thing, not a bad thing. It definitely adds personality to a game when you know that a true-blue superstar can be created--but very rarely. Just as these seemingly-superhuman guys will show up in real life, they should should up at some point in text sims. Every sport has its "unbreakable" records. Two that come to mind in recent memory are Henderson's stolen bases and Rice's receiving records. Both are freaks of nature--and so in Langen. Now, if we had a 20,000 yard rusher retiring every 10-15 years, I'd be raising a stink.

Bottom line: there should be "once-in-a-generation" players--guys that challenge the "normal" range of career records (say, 12,000-15,000 receiving yards for example)--but also "once-in-a-lifetime" players--no more than one or two guys in a position group over 100 years or so that far surpass the "normal" range of career records.

(BTW, DK, this wasn't my guy, but cthomer's, and he used AI game plans.)

cthomer5000 · 02-17-2004, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyDog

(First off, DK, this wasn't my guy, but cthomer's, and he used AI game plans.)

Yep. After early failures with game-planning myself, I had completely given it up by the time Langen rolled around. ONLY in the last season, when I became obsessed with him hitting 30,000 yards did I crank up the gameplan a notch. The AI handled it all up until the last season of his career.

JonInMiddleGA · 02-17-2004, 06:09 AM

Based on what I've seen in, gosh I guess 65-75 seaons worth of play across 3 or 4 careers, I'd wager the rushing TD's are low because the AI game-planning seems to be a pass-happy run-hater, especially inside the 3 yd line. And/or it seems that defenses are keyed extremely well on runs down close, so if you can't run it in on 1st or 2nd down from the 2, then you end up throwing more short TD's & get fewer rushing TD's in the bargain.

The more I play, the more I find that calling my own plays at least a good portion of the time is the only way I really enjoy it. Whether it's been particularly entertaining to anyone or not, I really think I've come to understand (what I perceive as) the strengths & weaknesses of 2k4 a lot better because of my Misfit Toys dynasty.

Anyway, talking about the QB's & their performance curves, injury proneness, etc., if anyone examining these things might be looking to watch for something else, see if the injuries are having logical effects. What I'm talking about is something from my MT dynasty that I'd never noticed particularly before but I'm now wondering if it's common. My QB, Darrell Kelsay is a 75-95 red bar stud in a bunch of categories, including his various passing distances. He's also a serious scrambler. He blows his ACL & misses something like 36 weeks. When he returns, he can still run better than most QB's but suddenly he can't throw a pass downfield to save his life. Maybe it was age, maybe the game is so sophisticated that it's factoring some loss of strength in his lower body robbing him of distance, but what it felt like was that he was "punished" for the injury by having some skills dropped sharply, and it happened to be randomly instead of logically chosen categories.

If there's more injuries, then there should also be more injury effects. And if that's the case at all positions, then you end up with RB's & WR's with not only fewer games played but also more games played with diminished skills.

Peregrine · 02-17-2004, 06:28 AM

I agree with your point Skydog, but I think that once (hopefully) the injuries are tweaked a bit and players aren't starting every game for many years as many are currently, we'll be able to more accurately judge who the superstars are. A lot of it also depends on the individual team of course. Langen's team must have had a pretty sorry passing game for him to run over 500 times in several of his seasons, that is massively, massively higher than anything I've seen before, I think 430-440 is the most carries I've seen from a player on an AI team.

Ben E Lou · 02-17-2004, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrine

I agree with your point Skydog, but I think that once (hopefully) the injuries are tweaked a bit and players aren't starting every game for many years as many are currently, we'll be able to more accurately judge who the superstars are.

Certainly. Different points entirely.

Ben E Lou · 02-17-2004, 08:01 AM

I'll take the bait, by the way. I'll quicksim a bunch of seasons at 200 injuries and report in (probably by tomorrow morning at the latest).

Ben E Lou · 02-17-2004, 09:07 AM

After six seasons, a few data points.... (I'll leave the analysis/real life comparisons to y'all. I'm kinda busy today, but quick-simming is easy to do.)

3 QB's have played 96 games. 9 have played >80 games.
4 RB's have played 96 games. 15 have played >80 games.

A 4th-year RB is third all-time in rushing, with 6,401 yards. (Portis and Tomlinson are 1-2, but this kid is only 490 yards off the lead).

Ben E Lou · 02-18-2004, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

The NFL is about 85 years old. I would say about 45-55 of those are statistically relevant here.

I'm going to report on 50 seasons of quicksimming then.

Ben E Lou · 02-19-2004, 08:12 AM

Quick update....after 35 seasons....

82 >=4,000 yard passers (2.34 per year)

Ben E Lou · 02-19-2004, 08:28 AM

Dola--

Kinda cool. A former 7th-round draft choice QB, now at beginning of year 14, is about 4,300 yards, 300 completions and 32 TD's away from breaking all of Matt Newton's records.

cthomer5000 · 02-19-2004, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Langen's team must have had a pretty sorry passing game for him to run over 500 times in several of his seasons, that is massively, massively higher than anything I've seen before, I think 430-440 is the most carries I've seen from a player on an AI team.

Not the case at all. Here's the only screenshot I have on hand, but this was pretty much the case the whole time Langen and Wulfeck were together. My offensive was just unstoppable.

cthomer5000 · 02-19-2004, 08:40 AM

dola. It's cleary not just a run dominated team:

Looking at there 3rd year together, Langen had 528 attempts for 2,524. Still, my QB threw 440 times for 3,884 yards and a 30/3 TD/INT ratio.

02-16-2004, 07:10 PM	#3
hukarez College Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Chula Vista, CA	I'm guessing this is the original FOF? Not FOF2K4? __________________ ...what we have here is a man who looks like Tarzan, but fights like Jane! My VG collection \| Xbox 360 Gamertag: ManThol \| PS3 Network ID: hukarez Doce Pares International - San Diego Council Filipino Martial Arts Digest tweet tweet twitter

02-16-2004, 07:16 PM	#6
hukarez College Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Chula Vista, CA	I'm guessing this is FOF2K4, with regards to injury settings..something that I haven't really fiddled around with myself. __________________ ...what we have here is a man who looks like Tarzan, but fights like Jane! My VG collection \| Xbox 360 Gamertag: ManThol \| PS3 Network ID: hukarez Doce Pares International - San Diego Council Filipino Martial Arts Digest tweet tweet twitter

02-16-2004, 07:22 PM	#10
hukarez College Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Chula Vista, CA	I guess I don't pay much close detail to stat discrepancies or the like, and to be honest...I can't find many bugs with that 5.0b release. I'm sure there are - I just haven't really been looking for them, to be honest. Still, that 53 year career thing might prove to be a bit disconcerting, as I've thoroughly enjoyed the 20 years invested so far with 3 different franchises. __________________ ...what we have here is a man who looks like Tarzan, but fights like Jane! My VG collection \| Xbox 360 Gamertag: ManThol \| PS3 Network ID: hukarez Doce Pares International - San Diego Council Filipino Martial Arts Digest tweet tweet twitter

02-16-2004, 07:29 PM	#11
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	The differences here are a lot more obvious than the career passing leaders. So far I've found that FOF does a poor job doing running success. The top rushers in FOF have played every game in their career, but they seemed to get replaced easier later in their career. I have not seen any injuries with them, they just get replaced during their last 3 or 4 years and are backups. This process seems to happen earlier in FOF than in the real world. I'm not sure if this is due to the logicv Jim implemented that was supposed to put high potential ahead of older veterans. No matter what, the discrepancies I am seeing are pretty large. The average FOF RB's career (top 5) is 11 years, while in the NFL it is ~13-14. Those 2 years would put the numbers closer, but not quite to NFL level (expect for TD's, not sure whats up there) Code: *Career Records (still active) FOF Rushes NFL Rushes** J. Brewer 2914 E. Smith 4142 M. Derricott 2828 W. Payton 3838 R. Verstegen 2782 J. Bettis 3119 A. Schultz 2581 B. Sanders 3062 D. Wynn 2506 M. Allen 3002 FOF Rushing Yards NFL Rushing Yards J. Brewer 12197 E. Smith 17418 R. Verstegen 11959 W. Payton 16726 M. Derricott 11581 B. Sanders 15269 D. Wynn 11420 E. Dickerson 13259 A. Schultz 10701 T. Dorsett 12739 FOF Rushing TD's NFL Rushing TD's* A. Schultz 83 E. Smith 155 R. Verstegen 79 M. Allen 123 M. Binn 78 W. Payton 110 *B. Everett 78 J. Brown 106 D. Wynn 77 J. Riggins 104

02-16-2004, 07:56 PM	#14
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	This is the final look at career stats, mainly because profootball-reference.com only lists offensive career stats. Well, it seems that the FOF receptions records fall just a bit short of the NFL records... and by a bit I mean a lot. Granted, Jerry Rice is a freak of nature (a la Dan Marino), but even 2nd place is off. None of the guys have been injured, so that is not the problem. It just seems there are a lot of options per team for each QB to throw too, so no one player racks up the stats. The most concerning thing is the TD's, which are off by quite a bit. The average top 5 FOF receiver has 12 years, the average NFL receiver has ~15-16 years. Most of the active FOF players should retire in a year or 2. Code: *Career Records (still active) FOF Receptions NFL Receptions** O. Garcia 916 J. Rice 1519 B. Ochoa 839 C. Carter 1101 E. Clemons 807 T. Brown 1070 W. Benson 758 A. Reed 951 L. Coles 752 A. Monk 940 FOF Receiving Yards NFL Receiving Yards* O. Garcia 12052 J. Rice 22466 C. Berry 10919 T. Brown 14734 W. Benson 10557 J. Lofton 14004 B. Ochoa 10504 C. Carter 13899 M. Tartabull 10409 H. Ellard 13777 FOF Receiving TD's NFL Recieving TD's* W. Benton 71 J. Rice 194 F. Granberry 67 C. Carter 130 S. Lindquist 65 S. Largent 100 M. Tartabull 64 T. Brown 99 O. Garcia 64 D. Hutson 99

02-16-2004, 07:09 PM	#2
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Florida	Earmuffs Wow that is some fucking great shit. Seriously that is interesting I might try it but I can no longer stand playing that game. noop __________________ Living in an Oligarchy.

02-16-2004, 07:13 PM	#5
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	Hmmm, if you take Dan Marino out of the NFL stats, things start looking really good as far as comparisons go.

02-16-2004, 07:19 PM	#8
amdaily College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2003	I lost my 53 year career due to an out of memory error, but you definitely need to play another couple decades before comparing stats. They'll start falling in line a bit closer. In either case, Jim as already stated he made more changes to the stat engine for 5.0c, so....

02-16-2004, 07:34 PM	#12
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	Don't get me wrong, I love to play the game, and I never checked the stats until just now. Their being out of "line" don't really bother me, I just felt like checking my guys against the NFL to see how they stacked up. I just thought I would share my findings with the board to get their read on things. And yes, if SD sees this, it doesn't matter if they match up exactly, just food for thought (i.e. tweaking the running game a bit, or at least the pass/run balance or something). And on the super-injury thing, I've notice a lot of guys who get hurt for a long time end up being hurt more often. I've also noticed some guys can get over it, but its harder to do. I'd prefer if it wasn't like that ( it decimated some of my teams), but I live with it.

02-16-2004, 08:11 PM	#15
Swaggs Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Where is the "FOF Children Slapped" column? __________________ DOWN WITH HATTRICK!!! The RWBL Are you reading In The Bleachers?

02-16-2004, 08:12 PM	#16
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	Thats a defensive stat, or thats what Dean Houston cried in court.

02-16-2004, 09:10 PM	#17
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	Now its about time to look at the season stats. There aren't huge differences in yards and completions when you take out the run and gun Raiders and Dan Marino. The numbers here are pretty good. According to profootball-reference, there have been 49 (or 50, I may have missed 1) 4,00 yard passing seasons. FOF reporter only goes out to the top 20 performances, so I can't see if those numbers line up. However, the top 20 in FOF end with #20 passing for 4316 yards. There have been 22 passers in the NFL who have passed for at least that many yards, so passing yards line up fairly well. The top 20 in completions in FOF end with 356 completions, while 20 NFL passers have at least that many completions in a season. However, the huge discrepancy is in TD passes a season. For some reason, FOF tops out at 35 a year (or at least in every season I've simmed). Don't know if this is by design or what, but it makes the career records be off. by a bit. 47 NFL players have thrown 30 TD's, compared with 27 in my FOF league, this should be looked at. Code: Season Records FOF Completions NFL Completions D. Bridges 405 R. Gannon 417 P. Manning 389 W. Moon 404 D. Bridges 387 D. Bledsoe 400 K. Collins 381 P. Manning 392 B. Leftwich 379 D. Marino 385 FOF Passing Yards NFL Passing Yards D. Bridges 4799 D. Marino 5084 D. Bridges 4685 K. Warner 4830 D. Carr 4680 D. Fouts 4802 B. Leftwich 4630 D. Marino 4746 D. Carr 4604 D. Fouts 4715 FOF Passing TD's NFL Passing TD's D. Carr 35 D. Marino 48 R. Strong 35 D. Marino 44 T. Green 35 K. Warner 41 D. Carr 35 B. Favre 39 D. Carr 35 B. Favre 38

02-16-2004, 09:28 PM	#18
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	The running game is fairly in line with what has been going on in the NFL. With the exception of mr. Gaddy's 461 carries, the carries are pretty much in line with the NFL. There haven't been a lot of 2000 yard seasons in my career yet, but there could be. I think this correlates to the slightly low ypc that the top carrying RB's get in FOF. I think most of the 2000 yard NFL rushers had high ypc, while in FOF they don't. As for TD's, well... its TD's, their always an anomoly in this game. I may have to check scoring overall just to see if everything matches up. The top 20 ends with 359 carries in the FOF league, while 37 NFL players have carried the ball at least that much in the season. The top 20 ends with 1572 yards in FOF, while 37 NFL players have rushed for that much in a season. The top 20 ends with 13 TD's in FOF, while at least 50 NFL players have run for that many. Code: Season Records FOF Rushes NFL Rushes K. Gaddy 461 J. Anderson 410 W. Finney 411 J. Wilder 407 T. Barber 406 E. Dickerson 404 H. Kennedy 398 E. George 403 D. Salcedo 388 G. Riggs 397 FOF Rushing Yards NFL Rushing Yards W. Finney 2061 E. Dickerson 2105 K. Gaddy 2047 J. Lewis 2066 G. Norton 1860 B. Sanders 2053 T. Barber 1835 T. Davis 2008 K. Gaddy 1700 O. Simpson 2003 FOF Rushing TD's NFL Rushing TD's K. Gaddy 18 P. Holmes 27 B. Everett 17 E. Smith 25 J. Bettis 15 J. Riggins 24 J. Fargas 15 5 tied with 21 D. Salcedo 15

02-16-2004, 09:34 PM	#19
RPI-Fan Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Troy, NY	With the career records... consider that the NFL has about 35 years of history, while we're going off of 16. I greatly appreciate the work, Easy Mac, as it does certainly point out some issues. But after 35 years, the numbers would look moderately, if not much, closer to the NFL ones. __________________ Quis custodiets ipsos custodes?

02-16-2004, 09:40 PM	#21
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	Whoa...and Don Hutson. 40's? __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

02-16-2004, 09:44 PM	#23
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	Have I mentioned how much I love receptions, because there is far less to analyze, since it matches up fairly well. Both FOF and NFL have their anomoly year (Harrison and Tanner), and the rest of the receptions fall into place. FOF is a little high on the recieving yards, but they fall back into place around the 5th spot. TD's are again a little low, and adds to the idea that TD's are more spread out in FOF. The top 20 receivers in FOF have at least 103 catches, while in the NFL 29 players have that many or more. The top 20 in receiving yards ends at 1475, while in the NFL 27 players have that many. The top 30 in receiving TD's for FOF ends with 11, while at least 50 NFL players have caught 13. Code: Season Records FOF Receptions NFL Receptions C. Tanner 137 M. Harrison 143 L. Cardwell 120 H. Moore 123 W. Boehler 119 C. Carter 122 J. Cassidy 118 J. Rice 122 A. Crumpler 117 C. Carter 122 FOF Receiving Yards NFL Receiving Yards J. Cassidy 1972 J. Rice 1848 T. Owens 1911 I. Bruce 1781 C. Tanner 1882 C. Hennigan 1746 W. Boehler 1758 M. Harrison 1722 J. Gaffney 1737 T. Holt 1696 FOF Receiving TD's NFL Receiving TD's T. Owens 16 J. Rice 22 C. Tanner 14 M. Clayton 18 J. Oden 14 S. Sharpe 18 6 tied with 13 6 tied with 17

02-16-2004, 09:48 PM	#25
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	I don't know if the rushing game in FOF will ever equal on a consistent basis the NFL records, merely because of the way FOF handles rushing.

02-16-2004, 09:53 PM	#28
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	Yup... __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

02-16-2004, 09:57 PM	#30
amdaily College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2003	I was listening to a local radio show the other day and something really hit me when they started discussing the "decreasing role of Quaterbacks in the NFL" and then went on the cite Brady and Delhomme being unspectacular but consistent. FOF seems to be headed in the other direction. It's all but impossible to win with a mediocre, or even a Brady type QB in FOF despite how good the rest of your team it. In my opinion to much depends on one position. I didn't own FOF4, but one thing I really didn't like jumping straight from FOF2001 to FOF2004 was that formations are now solely dependent on QB's. That's just one visible example, but I'm willing to be alot of hidden variables have either been moved or added to the QB position between the two versions.

02-16-2004, 09:58 PM	#31
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	I don't think I've ever seen a computer team have a runner like that. I think its easier to pump up numbers with your own team than it is to get a computer team to have high numbers. I would say the lower numbers are due to injury. I would start a career on 100 injury setting, but I've been doing this one since November 24, so who knows how long that one would take me.

02-16-2004, 11:23 PM	#35
Peregrine Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Cary, NC	There's got to be a bug or something with that Langen guy. I have a 35 year career and have seen at most 3 or 4 2000 yard seasons total in that time, one guy having 9 of them is just nuts.

02-17-2004, 12:12 AM	#36
dawgfan Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Seattle	A question for those that play FOF4 and FOF2004 - has Jim fixed the issue with punting averages and the decision-making with regard to whether to go for it on 4th down, to punt or to kick a FG depending on field position, score and the game clock? I'm hoping if/when he puts out TCY2 that this will have been fixed...

02-17-2004, 06:09 AM	#41
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	Based on what I've seen in, gosh I guess 65-75 seaons worth of play across 3 or 4 careers, I'd wager the rushing TD's are low because the AI game-planning seems to be a pass-happy run-hater, especially inside the 3 yd line. And/or it seems that defenses are keyed extremely well on runs down close, so if you can't run it in on 1st or 2nd down from the 2, then you end up throwing more short TD's & get fewer rushing TD's in the bargain. The more I play, the more I find that calling my own plays at least a good portion of the time is the only way I really enjoy it. Whether it's been particularly entertaining to anyone or not, I really think I've come to understand (what I perceive as) the strengths & weaknesses of 2k4 a lot better because of my Misfit Toys dynasty. Anyway, talking about the QB's & their performance curves, injury proneness, etc., if anyone examining these things might be looking to watch for something else, see if the injuries are having logical effects. What I'm talking about is something from my MT dynasty that I'd never noticed particularly before but I'm now wondering if it's common. My QB, Darrell Kelsay is a 75-95 red bar stud in a bunch of categories, including his various passing distances. He's also a serious scrambler. He blows his ACL & misses something like 36 weeks. When he returns, he can still run better than most QB's but suddenly he can't throw a pass downfield to save his life. Maybe it was age, maybe the game is so sophisticated that it's factoring some loss of strength in his lower body robbing him of distance, but what it felt like was that he was "punished" for the injury by having some skills dropped sharply, and it happened to be randomly instead of logically chosen categories. If there's more injuries, then there should also be more injury effects. And if that's the case at all positions, then you end up with RB's & WR's with not only fewer games played but also more games played with diminished skills.

02-17-2004, 06:28 AM	#42
Peregrine Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Cary, NC	I agree with your point Skydog, but I think that once (hopefully) the injuries are tweaked a bit and players aren't starting every game for many years as many are currently, we'll be able to more accurately judge who the superstars are. A lot of it also depends on the individual team of course. Langen's team must have had a pretty sorry passing game for him to run over 500 times in several of his seasons, that is massively, massively higher than anything I've seen before, I think 430-440 is the most carries I've seen from a player on an AI team. Last edited by Peregrine : 02-17-2004 at 06:29 AM.

02-17-2004, 08:01 AM	#44
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	I'll take the bait, by the way. I'll quicksim a bunch of seasons at 200 injuries and report in (probably by tomorrow morning at the latest). __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

02-17-2004, 09:07 AM	#45
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	After six seasons, a few data points.... (I'll leave the analysis/real life comparisons to y'all. I'm kinda busy today, but quick-simming is easy to do.) 3 QB's have played 96 games. 9 have played >80 games. 4 RB's have played 96 games. 15 have played >80 games. A 4th-year RB is third all-time in rushing, with 6,401 yards. (Portis and Tomlinson are 1-2, but this kid is only 490 yards off the lead). __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

02-19-2004, 08:12 AM	#47
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	Quick update....after 35 seasons.... 82 >=4,000 yard passers (2.34 per year) __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

02-19-2004, 08:28 AM	#48
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	Dola-- Kinda cool. A former 7th-round draft choice QB, now at beginning of year 14, is about 4,300 yards, 300 completions and 32 TD's away from breaking all of Matt Newton's records. __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

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