Another Colorado Football Rape Victim comes forward

[ScottVib]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...hnida/?cnn=yes

In this case it was the female place kicker they had Katie Hnida.

Absolutely sickining. If there is a better example of a lack of institutional control, I'm not sure what it is.

[Franklinnoble]

That's f'ed up, man.

What really bothers me, though, is that CU is NOT the only school to use prostitiution as a recruiting tool.

[MrBug708]

Think Barnett's college future is done? I'd say so.

I hope she names the guy who did if it's true.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

What really bothers me, though, is that CU is NOT the only school to use prostitiution as a recruiting tool.

I'd imagine it's pretty much standard practice.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Think Barnett's college future is done? I'd say so.

I hope she names the guy who did if it's true.

Doubt it. Barnett is a good football coach but if these acquisitions are true then he is a sorry ass person.

[albionmoonlight]

Assuming all of these various allegations are true:

1.) Everyone who is at Colarado on athletic scholarship should be allowed to either transfer without penalty or to remain at Colarado for free and not have to play sports.

2.) Going forward, Colarado should have all schoarships in all sports revoked for the next ten years.

3.) The NCAA should issue a statement saying that it is "not unsporting" to run up the score against Colarado teams for the next decade.


That may actually encourage University presidents and athletic directors to pay attention to what their teams are doing.

[Eaglesfan27]

This is sickening and I hope that the NCAA lays down some severe sanctions against CU assuming that the charges can be proved.

We had a female kicker on my high school team in the early 90's and even though we had a lot of immature guys on the team, nothing like that ever happened to her - in part cause most of our team genuinely feared our coach kicking us off the team and he had great control of the team.

[corbes]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

We had a female kicker on my high school team in the early 90's and even though we had a lot of immature guys on the team, nothing like that ever happened to her - in part cause most of our team genuinely feared our coach kicking us off the team and he had great control of the team.

Glad to hear that, Eaglesfan. Everything that happens on a team IS the coach's responsibility.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by corbes

Glad to hear that, Eaglesfan. Everything that happens on a team IS the coach's responsibility.

I agree 100%

[corbes]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Assuming all of these various allegations are true:

1.) Everyone who is at Colarado on athletic scholarship should be allowed to either transfer without penalty or to remain at Colarado for free and not have to play sports.

2.) Going forward, Colarado should have all schoarships in all sports revoked for the next ten years.

3.) The NCAA should issue a statement saying that it is "not unsporting" to run up the score against Colarado teams for the next decade.


That may actually encourage University presidents and athletic directors to pay attention to what their teams are doing.

The more I think about this, albion, the more these steps would be a good place to start. This is most assuredly lack of institutional control. If Barnett doesn't know it's going on -- exactly.

[ScottVib]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

This is sickening and I hope that the NCAA lays down some severe sanctions against CU assuming that the charges can be proved.

We had a female kicker on my high school team in the early 90's and even though we had a lot of immature guys on the team, nothing like that ever happened to her - in part cause most of our team genuinely feared our coach kicking us off the team and he had great control of the team.

As this stuff comes out if it can be proved to be true, I think they are almost leaving the NCAA with no choice but to seek the Death Penalty for the CU football program and force them to start from scratch, as SMU has been forced to do.

Stuff happening at practice to a player is completely unacceptable (and the coach takes direct responsibility for that stuff), having a recruiting assistant placing calls to an escort service (note the assistant claims they were for personal use), the other rape accusations, and the revelations of several schools using strippers (and I know its more common then that) as recruiting aids, is almost forcing the NCAA's hand into making the Buffs an example and trying to reign in the out of control recruiting behaviors.

The allegations that have come out prove a clear pattern of a lack of institutional control, Barnett, and others including the AD and President of the university will face immense pressure to step down and CU will have to do something to "start over".

The Hnida stuff just disgusts me, one of the most disturbing football stories I've ever read.

[ScottVib]

Originally Posted by corbes

The more I think about this, albion, the more these steps would be a good place to start. This is most assuredly lack of institutional control. If Barnett doesn't know it's going on -- exactly.

dola,

Personally while I think CU should get the death penalty. The players were part of the climate here that lead to the problem, and I wouldn't waive the one year sit down rule for them. Making the players have to sit down a year as well might give recruits a chance to pause and wonder should I sign with the school using the strippers and/or coed escorts, knowing I may have to sit down a year to be punished should they get caught... or should I go to the "cleaner" school, and not run the risk of losing a year to an out of control institution that got caught.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by ScottVib

dola,

Personally while I think CU should get the death penalty. The players were part of the climate here that lead to the problem, and I wouldn't waive the one year sit down rule for them. Making the players have to sit down a year as well might give recruits a chance to pause and wonder should I sign with the school using the strippers and/or coed escorts, knowing I may have to sit down a year to be punished should they get caught... or should I go to the "cleaner" school, and not run the risk of losing a year to an out of control institution that got caught.

Again, I agree 100%. The coach IS responsible for everything that happens on the team, but the coach's responsibility does not absolve the players' of their own personal responsibility. They should face penalties (such as the normal transfer penalties) for their part in the negative behavior which appears to be prevalent at CU.

[corbes]

Originally Posted by ScottVib

dola,

Personally while I think CU should get the death penalty. The players were part of the climate here that lead to the problem, and I wouldn't waive the one year sit down rule for them. Making the players have to sit down a year as well might give recruits a chance to pause and wonder should I sign with the school using the strippers and/or coed escorts, knowing I may have to sit down a year to be punished should they get caught... or should I go to the "cleaner" school, and not run the risk of losing a year to an out of control institution that got caught.

If I were actually making a recommendation, I would put Colorado football on the death penalty (for five years, minimum). That's the easiest decision to make.

Colorado's football players should indeed be held to the one year sit down rule. I guess, if they choose to stay instead of transfer, their scholarships should be paid for the remainder of their four years.

(Edit: No, I change my mind. They are part of letting this happen. Their scholarships should be immediately revoked. A scholarship is a privilege, not a right.)

While it seems unfair for Colorado's other athletes to suffer as well, the athletic department should be punished for allowing such action in the football program. At the very least, the athletic director and the university president should be out. I hold them directly responsible for such misconduct. Barnett, to say the least, should never hold an NCAA position again.

If I can think of a fair way to shut down all Colorado athletics, I'll do it...

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by ScottVib

As this stuff comes out if it can be proved to be true, I think they are almost leaving the NCAA with no choice but to seek the Death Penalty for the CU football program and force them to start from scratch, as SMU has been forced to do.

Except that SMU got the death penalty for paying football players - which is against NCAA rules. As has been discussed ad infinitum here, breaking the law is not.

[corbes]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Except that SMU got the death penalty for paying football players - which is against NCAA rules. As has been discussed ad infinitum here, breaking the law is not.

Lack of institutional control is the main criteria, correct?

[ScottVib]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Except that SMU got the death penalty for paying football players - which is against NCAA rules. As has been discussed ad infinitum here, breaking the law is not.

I was attacking this from a lack of institutional control prespective. There shouldn't have to be a NCAA bylaw that says you can't use sex or rape as recruiting practices. Or that you can't assault a teammate during practice.

[corbes]

dola-

and I'd let colleges pay players from now until the end of time before I allowed one sexual assault, let alone rampant misconduct.

[Noop]

Well I have to say this is pretty shocking...*Note to self stay far away from Colorado* I'm surprised that one has decided to take swipes at other schools.... so I will.... Look at whats happening or happened at Florida State, Miami, The SEC, etc? Poor poor Colorado.... In case you can't read thru this i was joking of course.



noop

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by corbes

dola-

and I'd let colleges pay players from now until the end of time before I allowed one sexual assault, let alone rampant misconduct.

The law is supposed to outlaw those things. The NCAA was set up to establish a set of rules for intercollegiate comptetition that were not covered by the law. I do not think that the NCAA needs to set up rules for everything that is currently against the law. I do think that they should set up some sort of rule applying uniform penalties for being convicted (CONVICTED!) of a crime.

Think about it, do we really want the NCAA enforcing criminal codes? These people are incompetent at what they do, can you imagine how badly they would botch an actual criminal investigation and trial? They should certainly not cave to hysteria like these stories are creating, and punish people for what is published in newspapers and on the internet (especially given how "get it first" has replaced "get it right" as the journalistic credo in this country).

Let's let the people of Colorado, who fund this atrocity, deal with it. People who's guilt can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt should be punished appropriately (and harshly). Barnett WILL be fired, and the administration there will try to change the culture.

[NoMyths]

This makes me incredibly sad. I think the stats are that 1 out of every 4 women has been sexually assaulted. Things like this really bring that home, and make me sad and angry. The first woman to ever score in D1 football was allegedly raped by a teammate...that's a stat that just...ugh, no words.

[ScottVib]

No one is asking the NCAA to enforce criminal code. They are asking the NCAA to enforce it's institutional code standard. If a college has a climate such that seems to exist at Colorado (and by no means do I think Colorado is the only school with strippers and sex for recruits), the NCAA's mission is ensure there isn't a "lack of institutional" control.

The NCAA's job is to police the schools... the Colorado allegations are the most egregious allegations to rock the NCAA in a long time. If they don't show a lack of institutional control I don't know what does. It's this kind of thing the NCAA is supposed to police and deal with. They are supposed to deal with the college, when the college lacks the control to deal with itself. These allegations show a pattern that illustrates a lack of institutional control over the Colorado football program, and it's my opinion that the Death Penalty for the program is appropriate in this case.

[Noop]

Scott who is your team in college football?

[ScottVib]

UConn. And trust me they are anything but perfect. Had a player busted for obstruction of justice last year. (He washed his sheets, which were actually evidence in a rape case against an acquantaince of his, he's no longer with the team, and has transferred to Sacramento State)

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by ScottVib

UConn.

No seriously, he said football team

[GoldenEagle]

What comes with the death penalty again?

[Easy Mac]

3 less strippers and a football team.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by ScottVib

UConn. And trust me they are anything but perfect. Had a player busted for obstruction of justice last year. (He washed his sheets, which were actually evidence in a rape case against an acquantaince of his, he's no longer with the team, and has transferred to Sacramento State)

That's interesting. The office where I'm working right now is about 1/2 a mile from Sac. State.

And the football program here is pretty pathetic...

[ScottVib]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

What comes with the death penalty again?

Program shut down for at least 1 full year (no recruiting no nothing). Lots of fines (the fines were so crippling SMU cancelled a 2nd football season on its own).

SMU ultimately restarted the program and had nothing but first year players.

[corbes]

Originally Posted by Samdari

The law is supposed to outlaw those things. The NCAA was set up to establish a set of rules for intercollegiate comptetition that were not covered by the law. I do not think that the NCAA needs to set up rules for everything that is currently against the law. I do think that they should set up some sort of rule applying uniform penalties for being convicted (CONVICTED!) of a crime.

Think about it, do we really want the NCAA enforcing criminal codes? These people are incompetent at what they do, can you imagine how badly they would botch an actual criminal investigation and trial? They should certainly not cave to hysteria like these stories are creating, and punish people for what is published in newspapers and on the internet (especially given how "get it first" has replaced "get it right" as the journalistic credo in this country).

Let's let the people of Colorado, who fund this atrocity, deal with it. People who's guilt can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt should be punished appropriately (and harshly). Barnett WILL be fired, and the administration there will try to change the culture.

I'm not saying that the NCAA should be in charge of the criminal investigations, although those investigations should surely follow in the wake of any allegations or charges that are made.

I'm saying that the NCAA should be in the business of assessing whether or not the institution (Colorado) has allowed a set of conditions to exist which would create this sort of behavior -- especially if those in charge (coaching staff, athletic department) claim not to know what is going on.

[SackAttack]

Here's what I want to know.

Did this young lady (Katie Hnida?) seek the publicity? Was she actively looking to step forward and reveal who she was and what happened to her? Or is her name just being used because of the whole 'female kicker' on the football team bit? IOW, because she'd be fairly easy to identify, she isn't being shielded?

I ask because I find it fairly interesting that, despite Colorado's vaunted rape shield laws, she's been identified, and yet there's that near-obsession with protecting the identity of Kobe's accuser.

I'm not trying to contrast the one or the other, mind you. Casting no aspersions on the validity of either claim. I'm simply curious as to whether Ms. Hnida willfully waived her rights here, or if there's a double standard being applied.

[SirFozzie]

she came forward because the existing case kinda dragged her back into the hell that Colorado was for her.. (or at least that's the gist I get from the article)

[BishopMVP]

It appears from the article she isn't even pressing charges or revealing the name of the player, so I don't think that you can compare it to the Kobe case.

[ScottVib]

She's not even suing the University, so it's not like she's doing it for financial gain.

[stevew]

Pretty sad how this program has deteriorated from Mccartney to Neuheisel to Barnett.

[bertogarce]

These allegations sicken me. However, I feel the need to repeat some comments I've seen on some of our CU message boards.

When people keep refering to a lack of institutional control by Coach Barnett, I want to know how you control something like these allegations. Rape is disturbing and wrong and that is why it is against the law of society. Not everything is in Barnett's control. He can't decide who someone dates, if they can have sex, and I am positive he does not want any of his players raping anyone. Players would have been punished, schollies lost, suspensions, recruits denied admission. I am not sure what Barnett can do about something like this now. I think it is horrible if all of these allegations are true, but I don't know how it becomes Barnett's fault. If he is hiding anything or letting this go on with knowledge of it, then he should be fired immediately. I don't believe that is the case. In fact, no one knew of the latest allegations until recently. How does Barnett control that???

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Here's what I want to know.

Did this young lady (Katie Hnida?) seek the publicity? Was she actively looking to step forward and reveal who she was and what happened to her? Or is her name just being used because of the whole 'female kicker' on the football team bit? IOW, because she'd be fairly easy to identify, she isn't being shielded?

I ask because I find it fairly interesting that, despite Colorado's vaunted rape shield laws, she's been identified, and yet there's that near-obsession with protecting the identity of Kobe's accuser.

I'm not trying to contrast the one or the other, mind you. Casting no aspersions on the validity of either claim. I'm simply curious as to whether Ms. Hnida willfully waived her rights here, or if there's a double standard being applied.

She came forward and this is not a criminal case so the laws don't apply.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by ScottVib

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...hnida/?cnn=yes

In this case it was the female place kicker they had Katie Hnida.

Absolutely sickining. If there is a better example of a lack of institutional control, I'm not sure what it is.

Louisiana (Was it Monroe? Lafeyette?) where the 15 year old genius prodigy was gang banged by the football team. That's where the worse example is.

-Anxiety

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by bertogarce

These allegations sicken me. However, I feel the need to repeat some comments I've seen on some of our CU message boards.

When people keep refering to a lack of institutional control by Coach Barnett, I want to know how you control something like these allegations. Rape is disturbing and wrong and that is why it is against the law of society. Not everything is in Barnett's control. He can't decide who someone dates, if they can have sex, and I am positive he does not want any of his players raping anyone. Players would have been punished, schollies lost, suspensions, recruits denied admission. I am not sure what Barnett can do about something like this now. I think it is horrible if all of these allegations are true, but I don't know how it becomes Barnett's fault. If he is hiding anything or letting this go on with knowledge of it, then he should be fired immediately. I don't believe that is the case. In fact, no one knew of the latest allegations until recently. How does Barnett control that???

The coach brought those players in in the first place. The coach sets personal standards and expectations that his players are supposed to live up to. There is no one more directly responsible for the day to day behavior of his players than the coach. The way he's handled it hasn't spoken well for him, and makes the accusations all the more believable.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

Louisiana (Was it Monroe? Lafeyette?) where the 15 year old genius prodigy was gang banged by the football team. That's where the worse example is.

-Anxiety

I thought it was UAB.

[Buccaneer]

CU = latest NCAA and media whipping boy. Most other D1 schools = glad the spotlight is not on them (for now).

[Leonidas]

I keep having visions of that school in that stupid Scott Bakula/Sinbad movie where they went out of control, cut the team, and started a new team with only walkons. This team needs to go.

What I can't help but wonder is how much of the same stuff is common at other schools. I bet at least half the stuff we've heard so far happens at several Top 20 teams. Granted, there seems to be a certain out of control element here, and I think that comes directly from lack of control from the staff.

ANother funny thing is all along I kept thinking Neuheisal was responsible for UC getting a bad rap a few years ago. If anything, things have gone from bad to much worse since he left. And this from Barnett, a guy everyone thought was squeaky clean coming in from Northwestern.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

I keep having visions of that school in that stupid Scott Bakula/Sinbad movie where they went out of control, cut the team, and started a new team with only walkons. This team needs to go.

Unnescessary Roughness was a GREAT movie! Kathy Ireland as the kicker {drool}

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Unnescessary Roughness was a GREAT movie! Kathy Ireland as the kicker

Oh my God, you're right. I completely forgot they had the chick kicker. Accidental irony is possibly the best kind.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

The coach brought those players in in the first place. The coach sets personal standards and expectations that his players are supposed to live up to. There is no one more directly responsible for the day to day behavior of his players than the coach. The way he's handled it hasn't spoken well for him, and makes the accusations all the more believable.

Uhh actually the players are directly responsible for their own actions. The coach has no control over what the players do for 75% of the day. He controls practice/film session, that's it.

[ScottVib]

Originally Posted by bertogarce

These allegations sicken me. However, I feel the need to repeat some comments I've seen on some of our CU message boards.

When people keep refering to a lack of institutional control by Coach Barnett, I want to know how you control something like these allegations. Rape is disturbing and wrong and that is why it is against the law of society. Not everything is in Barnett's control. He can't decide who someone dates, if they can have sex, and I am positive he does not want any of his players raping anyone. Players would have been punished, schollies lost, suspensions, recruits denied admission. I am not sure what Barnett can do about something like this now. I think it is horrible if all of these allegations are true, but I don't know how it becomes Barnett's fault. If he is hiding anything or letting this go on with knowledge of it, then he should be fired immediately. I don't believe that is the case. In fact, no one knew of the latest allegations until recently. How does Barnett control that???

The verbal harrassment, throwing balls at her head, and even sexual assault (groping her crotch and breasts) took place at practice. That directly goes to the responsibility of the coach.

Furthermore the harrassment was actually brought to light last year. And Barnett was confronted on the matter before Hnida left Colorado.

At least with respect to Hnida's accusations, these were directly under the coaches control.

Similarly actions during the players recruiting visits ultimately fall under the coaches responsibility.

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Uhh actually the players are directly responsible for their own actions. The coach has no control over what the players do for 75% of the day. He controls practice/film session, that's it.

Yes, but the coach chooses the player he recruits, and he sets a standard of behavior for the players to follow. I have studied leadership for several years and people do take cues from their leaders on how to act. It can be both verbal and non-verbal. The best thing for a leader is to set the example by his or her actions. And if you allow individuals to take advantage of certain situations by "cutting them slack," you'll wind up with an epidemic of bad behavior.

If the coach has little responsibility for his/her players, then how do you explain why some programs have so many problems (Colorado, Oklahoma under Barry Switzer, Miami under Dennis Erickson, anyone under Jim Harrick, FSU under Bobby Bowden, etc) while other programs seem to have comparitively few problems (Duke under Coach K, Penn State under Joe Paterno, UCLA under John Wooden, etc.)?

There will always be individual examples of problem children in a program. Coach K had Corey Maggete, Joe Pa has had recent problems with some players, but by and large programs under these guys have a reputation for being clean. While guys like Switzer and Harrick ran outlaw programs and everyone knew it. And the police blotter shows that. By and large the coach picks the players for the team and sets the example. The coach also has an obligation to take care of these situations before they get out of hand. Clearly Barnett has not taken control of this team. There are more than one or two bad apples here. This guy is recruiting lower class human beings, and is not holding them accountable.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by ScottVib

The verbal harrassment, throwing balls at her head, and even sexual assault (groping her crotch and breasts) took place at practice. That directly goes to the responsibility of the coach.

Furthermore the harrassment was actually brought to light last year. And Barnett was confronted on the matter before Hnida left Colorado.

At least with respect to Hnida's accusations, these were directly under the coaches control.

Similarly actions during the players recruiting visits ultimately fall under the coaches responsibility.

I agree with you about the coaches responsibility for stuff that happens at practice. I also think that any situation brought to the coaches attention is now his "problem" to get to the bottom of and make sure the right thing is done.

Recruiting visits on the other hand...

When I went on my visits for lacrosse, this is what they basically all were:

- Meet coaches. Get food waiver. Talk about team stuff, grades, the college, and anything else you want to talk that neither of you already know from previous discussions (which usually isn't much)

- Meet your host. Do the nickel tour of the campus. (this is usually where mom and dad go to the hotel for the night).

- Hang out at the host's apartment/dormroom til you go out. You almost ALWAYS go out. I don't care what sport it is, the hosts job is to show you a good time. The coach really doesn't have any responsibility here. Yes, it's his job to tell the host not to do anything bad but he doesn't have any control over it any more than he does when his players go out drinking any other time.

The coach shouldn't be telling the host to do illegal stuff (go out drinking, find groupies for the recruit to fuck, etc...) but he doesn't have any control over whether those things happen so I can't hold the coach responsible.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

CU = latest NCAA and media whipping boy. Most other D1 schools = glad the spotlight is not on them (for now).

Where is the backlash for this statement? I said the same thing when the media was jumping all over Florida State's case... yet no one says a thing to you... interesting...

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

Yes, but the coach chooses the player he recruits, and he sets a standard of behavior for the players to follow. I have studied leadership for several years and people do take cues from their leaders on how to act. It can be both verbal and non-verbal. The best thing for a leader is to set the example by his or her actions. And if you allow individuals to take advantage of certain situations by "cutting them slack," you'll wind up with an epidemic of bad behavior.

If the coach has little responsibility for his/her players, then how do you explain why some programs have so many problems (Colorado, Oklahoma under Barry Switzer, Miami under Dennis Erickson, anyone under Jim Harrick, FSU under Bobby Bowden, etc) while other programs seem to have comparitively few problems (Duke under Coach K, Penn State under Joe Paterno, UCLA under John Wooden, etc.)?

There will always be individual examples of problem children in a program. Coach K had Corey Maggete, Joe Pa has had recent problems with some players, but by and large programs under these guys have a reputation for being clean. While guys like Switzer and Harrick ran outlaw programs and everyone knew it. And the police blotter shows that. By and large the coach picks the players for the team and sets the example. The coach also has an obligation to take care of these situations before they get out of hand. Clearly Barnett has not taken control of this team. There are more than one or two bad apples here. This guy is recruiting lower class human beings, and is not holding them accountable.

Well I can comment on JoePa since I lived there for a year. Only because the teams have been bad recentlly has stuff not been "pushed under the rug".

Sure the coach can lead by example and punish players when they break the rules but he doesn't control them.

By that logic, the coach should go to jail if the player breaks the law.