Katie Hnida revisited. Or Bobby Bowden opens his large mouth.

[digamma]

http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=2194206

Wouldn't you think that after 50 years in coaching, you would have the common sense to keep your mouth shut on this one?

[DeToxRox]

wrong time? probably.
right comments (for the most part)? probably.

i hate fsu but i hes probably right.

[Buccaneer]

FSU under Bowden has run a dirtier program than CU, only he has more clout to cover more of it up (but couldn't cover everything up).

[miami_fan]

Unfortunately I have to stand up for a Seminole (Forgive me Bernie Kosar)

1) Whether you believe she was raped or not, the question as to why she waited two years is a valid one. You can accept her answers to that question or not.

2) I also agree with his statement that 50 years ago no one would have even said a thing about his comment. Some (myself included) would say that society is better off because someone said it was wrong. Others would say we have just gotten too sensitive.

Now as far as Gary Barnett have good morals.........

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

FSU under Bowden has run a dirtier program than CU, only he has more clout to cover more of it up (but couldn't cover everything up).

Man, are you still pissed that he beat you out for West Virginia's head coaching position 35 years ago?

[pjstp20]

Damn Bobby seems like he's losing it more and more every day. I like the guy but man he really puts his foot in his mouth a lot these days. Aligning himself with a rapist, and now one who is insensitive to rape. Shut up Bobby!!! Who cares what happened 50 years ago. 50 years ago there were no black players in football, things have changed for the better.

[The_herd]

Rick Reilly tells the story of him Hnida telling him about the alleged rape here:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ida/index.html

SI.com: How did your Hnida story come about?

Reilly: I live in Denver, and one night back in 1998 a local high school girl became the first person in history to kick a field goal the same night she was named homecoming queen. I just thought it was cool, so I wrote about her that week for the magazine. You talk about a bubbly kid who had the world on a string; that was Katie Hnida. She was an honor roll student, a state finalist for the forensics team, won best story in the state high school newspaper competition ... and she didn't miss an extra point or a field goal her senior year. She was just on top of world. So I wrote about her, and I've kept in touch with her ever since.

Two times during the last two years she said, "I have something big to tell you," but she decided both times that she couldn't go through with it. Last Tuesday she called me. I flew to Albuquerque to talk to her, and the story she told me was just horrific -- she said teammates cornered her in the hallway and threatened her with sex acts, calling her the C-word. She said that became her nickname on the team. She said she had been groped in the 100-man huddles at the end of practice, that players touched her breasts under her shoulder pads, groped her crotch. She said she had endured every kind of vulgar proposition -- "Why don't you come over to the house and do me?" One time she was sick and a player allegedly said, "Why don't you die already, bitch?" She said was eating lunch another day and a guy came up to her and asked, "Why haven't you quit yet, prom queen?" Just terribly degrading stuff, and then after the season she says she was raped by a teammate whom she had thought was her friend.

SI.com: What was her demeanor as she told you her story?

Reilly: I've noticed that the last two years she hasn't been the same person she was in high school. She's more cautious, her face is just sadder. She's more serious than she was. Throughout the interview, she was pretty strong. She cried a couple of times. A few times I could see her just gulping for a breath of air to give her strength.

SI.com: Do you believe her story?

Reilly: I've been writing about sports and people for 25 years, so I've learned not to believe everything I hear, but I have to say Katie's story was very believable. Her tears, the details, the depth of her recollection were all very believable. When she said she never felt welcome at Colorado, that it felt like her teammates were trying to drive her out ... you can see now, after hearing Gary Barnett talk about it, that it was the case. Barnett said she was "terrible" -- plus she was "a girl!" -- as if being a girl was bad enough? The Buffs have had some bad kickers on their team recently -- were those guys harassed and tormented? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard a coach say.

SI.com: Did you foresee the dramatic chain of events that have taken place since your story was published Tuesday?

Reilly: I knew it would be bad, because there had been so much frustration in Colorado about the fact that nothing had happened to Barnett or Dick Tharp, the CU athletic director, when so much was going on -- allegations of rape, strippers, escort services. This is just another log on the fire. There are now six alleged assaults. If those six are all true -- or if any of those allegations are true -- it's shameful. It makes you ashamed of your school.

SI.com: Did the university take the right course of action in placing Barnett on paid leave following his comments about Hnida?

Reilly: The university wants to fire Barnett. But because of the pending lawsuit [filed by a woman who alleges she was raped at a recruiting party in 2001], CU can't fire him, because he deserves due process from his employer. Plus, it's the university that's being sued. If Colorado officials admit, "Look, we now admit our football program was out of control under this guy," that'd be a sure way to lose that lawsuit pretty quickly. They're stuck, so they found this middle ground. But if he comes back, I'm Eleanor Roosevelt, because I don't think there's any way he's going to.

In interviews I did while working on the story, I asked both Barnett and Tharp flat out about the alleged fifth victim [whose allegations were made public for the first time Wednesday], whom I understood to be part of the football program and who said she was raped in 2001 but never filed a police report. I asked them both if they knew about the allegations, and they both said no. But now, according to the police report, it appears Barnett did know. So if you believe the head coach wasn't aware of any of this, you have to therefore admit you have a head coach who is clueless. I don't think you want either.

SI.com: Is Barnett ultimately to blame for the state of affairs at Colorado, or does it reach beyond him?

Reilly: I think the way we treat women in the culture in this country, especially among athletes, is problematic. I think athletes have trouble hearing the word "no." They don't hear it very often. Instead, they hear "yes," "it's free" and "we love you." That's a problem within the athletic culture. But, like it or not, in college football the head coach is responsible for his players' actions. He has to be accountable. What this head coach has been saying is, "No, I didn't know anything about it." And it think that's stretching believability to a snapping point.

SI.com: What can Colorado do to restore your faith in its football program?

Reilly: I think the program should get a new athletic director. I believe it needs a new head coach. And I think the head coach should be a guy named Dave Logan, who is one of the finest people ever to come out of Colorado. Dave is the play-by-play voice for the Denver Broncos, he was a big star in the state who later played for the Cleveland Browns, and he's a fantastic coach for Denver's JK Mullen High School who always gets his team to the state tournament. He's ready for the job.

Sounds legit to me.

[Ksyrup]

FYI, Bowden clarified his comments here:


Bowden confirmed that's what he said - but said it was not directed at Katie Hnida, who recently told Sports Illustrated that she was raped by a Colorado football player in 2000 but was too afraid to inform law enforcement. Hnida has said she will not file charges or a lawsuit.

"That's not true. I wasn't referring to her," Bowden said.

The Florida State coach said his comments were in reference to other recent allegations regarding Colorado. Three women have sued the university after claiming they were raped by high-school recruits or players during or after a 2001 party held near the Boulder, Colo., campus.

"I don't want to retract too much. I'm not ashamed of what I said," Bowden said. "I was not referring to the kicker but to another case. ... I read earlier at Colorado where somebody is abused in 2001 and they don't choose to repeat it until 2004. That I don't understand. That raises a red flag, That's my opinion. That's how I feel."

Bowden, reacting to Barnett's comment that Hnida was an "awful" player, told reporters Monday that "Gary Barnett simply told what he thought was the truth: She was not a very good player."

Bowden didn't rescind that comment.

Bobby Bowden defended Colorado coach Gary Barnett's comment on former kicker Katie Hnida. "Gary Barnett simply told what he thought was the truth: She was not a very good player," Bowden said.

[pjstp20]

A males opinion on how a female should react to being raped is ridiculous. Bowden should have never opened his trap on this one because he has no idea what he's talking about.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by pjstp20

Bowden should have never opened his trap on this one because he has no idea what he's talking about.

Holding Bowden to a higher standard than yourself?

[pjstp20]

Ummm not quite I never commented on how a woman should react after getting raped

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

FSU under Bowden has run a dirtier program than CU, only he has more clout to cover more of it up (but couldn't cover everything up).

Care to offer proof?

[Noop]

Originally Posted by pjstp20

Ummm not quite I never commented on how a woman should react after getting raped

I see your back to your Nole bashing....good for you.

[pjstp20]

Hahaha, no Noop I preferaced everything by saying I actually like Bowden, he just tends to make a lot of stupid comments these days.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by pjstp20

Hahaha, no Noop I preferaced everything by saying I actually like Bowden, he just tends to make a lot of stupid comments these days.

Well I would like to offer a comment on this subject if I may.... believe it is well known I am very hmm... well I don't believe that the word rape is fair so to speak. So of course I don't believe she was raped per-say maybe he wanted to her to give him a blowjob or something....or they were dating and he found a better girlfriend. Sigh this is not making sense at all I just confused myself

Anyway, Bobby should have never said anything at all but he did...

*Note to self stay far away from Colorado-Remember Kobe and the CU program*



noop

[pjstp20]

Originally Posted by Noop

Anyway, Bobby should have never said anything at all but he did...

Exactly, I'm glad to see that even a die hard Seminole fan can understand this. It seems to me that FSU needs to hire a PR guy that follows Bowden's every move and he shouldnt be allowed to comment on anything until its run through the PR guy first.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Noop

Care to offer proof?

Just off the top of my head (and in the last few years)...
Adrian McPherson
Darnell Dockett
Talman Gardner
Laverneous Coles
Peter Warrick

Add to that Rix's parking troubles, Scott Bentley's sex tape shenanigans, and whatever used to go on back in Deion's day, and I'm not sure we're dealing with the cleanest program in America. How it compares to Colorado, I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by Noop

Anyway, Bobby should have never said anything at all

That was my only point in posting this. You would figure that you would have some sense after 50 years of when to stay away from hot button issues (regardless of whether your stand is defensible or not).

[Noop]

Originally Posted by digamma

Just off the top of my head (and in the last few years)...
Adrian McPherson
Darnell Dockett
Talman Gardner
Laverneous Coles
Peter Warrick

Add to that Rix's parking troubles, Scott Bentley's sex tape shenanigans, and whatever used to go on back in Deion's day, and I'm not sure we're dealing with the cleanest program in America. How it compares to Colorado, I'm not sure.

Notice all those things have one thing in common...those are all the players fault not Florida State. I have yet to see them go on probation(I know about the foot locker thing, but there was no lost of schollys or anything) Colorado I believe is innocent because its the players fault not the team's.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by digamma

Just off the top of my head (and in the last few years)...
Adrian McPherson
Darnell Dockett
Talman Gardner
Laverneous Coles
Peter Warrick

Add to that Rix's parking troubles, Scott Bentley's sex tape shenanigans, and whatever used to go on back in Deion's day, and I'm not sure we're dealing with the cleanest program in America. How it compares to Colorado, I'm not sure.

I don't get what any of this has to do with being "clean." There's personal, off-the-field issues, which the athletes at a lot of schools, including FSU have had, and then there's University of Minnesota/Clem Haskins-type issues, which clearly involve the school and/or its athletic department. The only thing you've cited to above that comes even close to implicating the school or coaching staff is the McPherson case; the others were off-field issues. Darnell Dockett - the only thing I know about his problems is that he got shot in the ass. How does that implicate the school?

I think there's a distinction that needs to be drawn. What Colorado's coaches may or may not have sanctioned as part of their recruiting process is hardly equivalent to a couple of receivers getting a 90% discount from a friend at a local sports store, or a jackass QB parking in a handicapped spot, or a moron taping his sexual escapades ("Are you taping this? No, never, never.").

[ISiddiqui]

Bowden's a moron. Women tend not to report a lot of rapes because of the embarassment and humilation inherant in the act. When others are coming forward, it makes it easier to come forward yourself.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Bowden's a moron. Women tend not to report a lot of rapes because of the embarassment and humilation inherant in the act. When others are coming forward, it makes it easier to come forward yourself.

You know I could never understand that about rape...humilation from what? If there was a crime why don't they report it as soon as possible? Maybe I can't understand this whole rape seeing how rape does not really have a definite meaning in the court of law. How about most rapes that destroy the lives of males across the country aren't really rapes. In case you haven't noticed the law is setup for women and not for men. Can I charge a girl in my class of rape? Because she grabs my ass and my dick when I'm in class... then I could sue the school system for some bullshit ass reason. I say this is response to your comment that she is going to face embarassment and humilation.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I don't get what any of this has to do with being "clean." There's personal, off-the-field issues, which the athletes at a lot of schools, including FSU have had, and then there's University of Minnesota/Clem Haskins-type issues, which clearly involve the school and/or its athletic department. The only thing you've cited to above that comes even close to implicating the school or coaching staff is the McPherson case; the others were off-field issues. Darnell Dockett - the only thing I know about his problems is that he got shot in the ass. How does that implicate the school?

I think it is about a pattern that shows there aren't the necessary controls in place in the program to prevent this type of behavior. Sure, ultimately it is on the player to behave, but when you have incident after incident, you have to admit that questions about who is running the hen house are bound to arise.

I think there's a distinction that needs to be drawn. What Colorado's coaches may or may not have sanctioned as part of their recruiting process is hardly equivalent to a couple of receivers getting a 90% discount from a friend at a local sports store, or a jackass QB parking in a handicapped spot, or a moron taping his sexual escapades ("Are you taping this? No, never, never.").

I'll grant you that. Maybe I wasn't explicit enough in my post above that I wasn't intending to compare FSU and Colorado--only trying to show that St. Bobby may not have the cleanest hands, himself.

I also remembered my favorite Bobby disciplinary (or non-disciplinary) action. When Janikowski (after all of his past troubles) broke curfew at the Sugar Bowl a few years ago, wasn't Bobby's quote that he wasn't going to suspend him because he was too valuable to the team?

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Noop

You know I could never understand that about rape...humilation from what? If there was a crime why don't they report it as soon as possible? Maybe I can't understand this whole rape seeing how rape does not really have a definite meaning in the court of law. How about most rapes that destroy the lives of males across the country aren't really rapes. In case you haven't noticed the law is setup for women and not for men. Can I charge a girl in my class of rape? Because she grabs my ass and my dick when I'm in class... then I could sue the school system for some bullshit ass reason. I say this is response to your comment that she is going to face embarassment and humilation.

Noop, take a look at the Kobe Bryant case as one highly visible example of what women can potentially go through in pressing rape charges if the case goes to court.

In cases of violent rape, a women might be justifiably worried for her safety if she presses charges. If it's a case where mutual consensual foreplay or fooling around progressed into non-consensual sex, i.e. rape, the woman faces a he-said/she-said scenario that is hard to prove, with the possibility that by bringing the accusation into the open, the man will be given the benefit of the doubt, especially when it's someone in a position of noteriety and acclaim like a university football player.

If you're serious about wanting to know why a woman might not report a rape right away, or at all even, I encourage you to listen to the stories of rape-victims and see the experiences they went through in dealing with it.

Rape is obviously a touchy subject because not only does it tarnish the reputation of the accused, it can also be a very difficult crime to report and see through to prosecution and trial for the victim.

Bowden could've expressed support for Barnett without devolving into public speculation about the credibility of the alleged recruiting-party rape victims.

[Noop]

dawgfan

I can understand where you’re coming from to a certain point. But again I don't understand that logic; if you were the victim of a crime you should report it. Waiting weeks, months, or even years does not make sense why not have some sort of closer (sp?) and have that man brought to justice? Maybe its just I am a little bitter because of things that have happened in the past to friends and a family member. I want it known that I do not support rapist or people like them but I have seen cases where a female can just lie and the male's life would be ruined.

*Note* For those of you offended by what I have said I did not mean to offend I am simply stating an opinion.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by digamma

I think it is about a pattern that shows there aren't the necessary controls in place in the program to prevent this type of behavior. Sure, ultimately it is on the player to behave, but when you have incident after incident, you have to admit that questions about who is running the hen house are bound to arise.

While I agree that controls can assist a school in keeping this activity to a minimum, I don't really see how that equates to an assumption that the players are running the program, just because a handful of guys decide to steal and commit other illegal acts. I tend to believe that the 18 years they spent prior to college has more of a bearing on that, rather than the 6 months to 5 years a guy spends at college.

Take the Warrick/Coles stuff - do you honestly believe that Bowden or his staff could teach them right and wrong in the context of running a football program, when that message obviously never got there or was ignored for years prior to that incident? Or even Rix - there were stories about how much time they put into working with him on his attitude, etc., and then he still f'ed up. Twice. What can you do?!

[ISiddiqui]

You know I could never understand that about rape...humilation from what? If there was a crime why don't they report it as soon as possible? Maybe I can't understand this whole rape seeing how rape does not really have a definite meaning in the court of law. How about most rapes that destroy the lives of males across the country aren't really rapes. In case you haven't noticed the law is setup for women and not for men.

As dawgfan says, rape sets you up for being thought of as a slut. Before rape shield laws your entire sexual history could come out. It has much more consequences for the accuser than other crimes. If you report you've been mugged, no one is going to think any less of you. If you report rape, a lot of people may think you are just slut. As dawgfan said, look at the Kobe Bryant case.

Many women who have been raped don't want it to get out at all.

Rape does have a definite meaning. As definite as any other crime. Many of them use non-consent as the standard. It may be difficult in close cases to find that line, but it is defined. People are slowly learning that "No means no". Thankfully more women are actually reporting and persuing rape charges (a lot of times they don't want to press charges because they don't want to go through it).

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Noop

dawgfan

I can understand where you’re coming from to a certain point. But again I don't understand that logic; if you were the victim of a crime you should report it. Waiting weeks, months, or even years does not make sense why not have some sort of closer (sp?) and have that man brought to justice? Maybe its just I am a little bitter because of things that have happened in the past to friends and a family member. I want it known that I do not support rapist or people like them but I have seen cases where a female can just lie and the male's life would be ruined.

It can be hard to step in the shoes of someone else and understand their motivation. That's why I suggest listening to the stories of a number of women that have been the victim of a rape and get their perspective on the entire ordeal. It's easier to say that they should all press charges right away than it is to actually have to go through that process.

And I acknowledge that there have been women who have and will abuse the system and falsely accuse someone of rape in a spite of anger or retribution. Women that do this are doubly evil, because not only do they falsely taint the reputation of the men they accuse, they make it that much harder on legitimate victims by making people more cynical about claims of rape.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Noop

dawgfan

I can understand where you’re coming from to a certain point. But again I don't understand that logic; if you were the victim of a crime you should report it. Waiting weeks, months, or even years does not make sense why not have some sort of closer (sp?) and have that man brought to justice? Maybe its just I am a little bitter because of things that have happened in the past to friends and a family member. I want it known that I do not support rapist or people like them but I have seen cases where a female can just lie and the male's life would be ruined.

*Note* For those of you offended by what I have said I did not mean to offend I am simply stating an opinion.

I'm not offended by what you've said, but how many times have you heard the argument that "she was asking for it"? When a woman reports a rape, her entire sexual reputation is laid on the line. That reputation becomes so volatile that absolutely anything can lead to this woman being ridiculed, insulted, or shunned. It's not as simple as just reporting it and letting justice take over. I know someone who was raped, and for some time afterwards, some women wonder if they were somewhat responsible for being raped. Rape is a lot to overcome, and it can absolutely shatter a person's psyche. I don't have a problem with people questioning that, but I do hope that everyone at least tries to understand it, as difficult as that may be.

[tucker342]

Is it really that hard for Football coaches to keep their mouths shut!?!?! All they need to learn is two words: NO COMMENT!!!

[Noop]

Are you more careful about what you say now a days with political correctness?

Everybody is. I do not like political correctness. I think it is a fallacy of our society. In other words, if you said something that was honest and truthful but it doesn't match what they think you ought to say they can get you in trouble. Why? 'Because that's not politically correct.' I nearly relate political correctness to lying. I will say what you want to hear just so you won’t get mad at me. You know where it might not even be the truth, so I don’t like political correctness and yet it is big, especially in politics. You better not say the wrong thing, it is true anywhere in public.

Bobby Bowden

[Butter]

Bobby Bowden's just old. Why you all gotta hate on the oldness? He never has run a dirty program. He didn't at all have no idea that a player of his was ejected from a game last year. Why can't you just let the old man be old and enjoy his old-ocity. I think you all are just jealous of his old-ernation. So he gets suckered in by players who take advantage of him. So he has a consistent pattern of recruiting thugs that makes Bob Huggins blush. So, what's your point? Just lay off Bowden, alright!!!

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

While I agree that controls can assist a school in keeping this activity to a minimum, I don't really see how that equates to an assumption that the players are running the program, just because a handful of guys decide to steal and commit other illegal acts. I tend to believe that the 18 years they spent prior to college has more of a bearing on that, rather than the 6 months to 5 years a guy spends at college.

Take the Warrick/Coles stuff - do you honestly believe that Bowden or his staff could teach them right and wrong in the context of running a football program, when that message obviously never got there or was ignored for years prior to that incident? Or even Rix - there were stories about how much time they put into working with him on his attitude, etc., and then he still f'ed up. Twice. What can you do?!

I'd argue that these coaches spend the better part of two years recruiting the player (sometimes more). They know where the risks are and what they are going to have to do if they take a trouble prone kid. I won't deny that other problems likely exist that contribute to a player's misbehavior, but I think defending Bowden to the hilt is a bit naive. Every school has a bit of trouble come its way, but it seems to follow FSU around. At some level, you have to blame Bowden for that.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

So he has a consistent pattern of recruiting thugs that makes Bob Huggins blush. So, what's your point? Just lay off Bowden, alright!!!

Sigh.. Thug? He has a had a few bad apples but so those every team. It just so happens Florida State gets the most media coverage because of their past success. If you think Florida State is the only one then you need to check every school in America to make sure.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by digamma

I'd argue that these coaches spend the better part of two years recruiting the player (sometimes more). They know where the risks are and what they are going to have to do if they take a trouble prone kid. I won't deny that other problems likely exist that contribute to a player's misbehavior, but I think defending Bowden to the hilt is a bit naive. Every school has a bit of trouble come its way, but it seems to follow FSU around. At some level, you have to blame Bowden for that.

Those coaches only talk to the player on the phone and come watch a few games that it. Thats not enough time to find out about a player sometimes highschool coaches will lie for the player so his scholly won't be revoked. Remember schools can't just focus on one player unlike TCY where once he commits he doesn't decommit. So you have to continue to recruit them thru the whole process until they sign the LOI. By then it is to late cause problems can arise ala Willie Williams...

[dawgfan]

I don't think the issue here is really political correctness; the problem people have with what Bowden said is it shows a lack of understanding of the difficulties rape victims face. I think it was a statement borne of some level of ignorance of the whole issue of rape.

The area where political correctness could be brought up is in describing Hnida as a bad kicker; the reason for not bringing this up in the first place when Barnett said it was not that it's bad to describe a women player as being 'bad', i.e. being politically correct; it was the context in which he said it, in the middle of discussing her rape and abuse allegations - this led to an interpretation that somehow Barnett was equating her football ability as a reason for her abuse.