Is this legal (in Baseball)?

[Vince]

From an ESPN Article:

"Or say you've got a left-handed hitter coming up," McCarty mused. "And I happen to be in the lineup, in the outfield. You could bring me in to face the left-hander, put the pitcher out there for one batter, then bring him right back in to face the next guy."

The synopsis - McCarty is a pretty decent utility hitter/fielder...but he's got a background pitching. And he's a 6'5" lefty. Red Sox are working him out as both a pitcher and position player this spring, to see how it looks. Could a pitcher who wasn't taken out of the game, but WAS moved from the #1 position to another position, later move back to the mound to resume pitching again? I thought I knew baseball rules pretty well, but this one stumps me, and I don't have a copy of the official rules handy.

[k0ruptr]

would be awesome thats all I know.

[clintl]

I'm pretty sure it's OK to do that.

[GoldenEagle]

In youth baseball, you can re-enter the pitcher once. It can not be in the same inning. That is USSSA organzaition. I do not think it would be legal in MLB though.

[VPI97]

It's fine...I remember one game in the 80's that the Mets had (I think) John Franco in right while Randy Myers was pitching...they'd switch according to the batter.

[Draft Dodger]

I'm pretty sure there was a game once where Fernando Valenzuela was moved out to leftfield, a righthander was brought in to face a particular tough batter or two, and then Fernando came back in to pitch.

[Young Drachma]

Yeah, a pitcher can move to another position just like you move the second baseman over to a new position or whatever. It happens rarely and that's interesting about Fernando. But, yeah..its totally legal. I don't think the Brewers did that with Brooks Kiesnick (sp) last year, it seem like they just used him as a pinch hitter sometimes, as a DH when they played AL games and pitched sometimes.

And he was the first guy to be a regular 2-way player in many years I think. It was noted somewhere.

[PunkyQB]

Yep ... absolutely legal to do that.

I still remember my jaw dropping one day when I was a kid and I witnessed Don Zimmer (managing my Cubs) send Rick Suttcliffe from the mound out to left-field for 1 hitter, use a reliever, then swap Suttcliffe right back out to the mound.

At the time, I thought this was the most revolutionary thing ever. I believed I'd seen the first instance of a strategy that would surely change the game. I was ... not very smart

The idea still intrigues me, I have to admit ... there are so many instances where a particular hitter's matchup advantage will "chase" a particular pitcher from the game ... the idea that you could relieve the pitcher without losing his services for the rest of the game, still teases me as seeming like a big deal.

But ... I know ... I know ... I should have learned something since I was watching Zimmer in 1989


(edited to correct myself on something)

[Celeval]

Just to echo - very legal.

[cthomer5000]

you would think you'd see this a lot more often on teams with a few interchangeable parts on the field (outfield or 1st base would be the only serious candidates I think) and a pitcher who can at least not make a major mistake playing at that position for a batter or two.

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by PunkyQB

At the time, I thought this was the most revolutionary thing ever. I believed I'd seen the first instance of a strategy that would surely change the game. I was ... not very smart

I had a similar experience watching Whitey Herzog manage my Cardinals in the mid 80's. When he moved Todd Worrell to the outfield for a batter and then put him back on the mound for the next batter I thought he was the smartest man to ever walk the face of the earth.

[finkenst]

very legal in the National League...

in the American League, I think that would remove your DH from the game.

[Leonidas]

I believe you can move positional players around all you want. You can move a CF and RF back and forth the whole game if you want. Technically speaking, the only things MLB really acknowledges as "official" positions is the DH (which has very specific rules about changing) and the current batter (which also has certain rules). I also think if you bring in a pitcher, he has to throw at least one pitch to the current batter. There are also very specific rules about the batting order. Otherwise, you must have a pitcher and a catcher, but you can do anything with the other guys in the field you want. No rule says you have to have a 1B or 2B or any other position. And no rule says you can't move a guy back and forth out of either the P or C position, only that you must have those positions fielded.

[Ksyrup]

Rocky Colavito was used this way for the Indians and/or the Yankees, I believe.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by finkenst

very legal in the National League...

in the American League, I think that would remove your DH from the game.

This doesn't touch the DH, so there's no problem in either league.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I'm pretty sure there was a game once where Fernando Valenzuela was moved out to leftfield, a righthander was brought in to face a particular tough batter or two, and then Fernando came back in to pitch.

Looks like that might have happened to him twice.

[CentralMassHokie]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

This doesn't touch the DH, so there's no problem in either league.

Nope. You'd lose the DH. Per the major league rulebook:

Once the game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game.

Rule 6.10

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by finkenst

very legal in the National League...

in the American League, I think that would remove your DH from the game.

Yeah, I don't think Dave McCarty has thought this thing through. In the AL, once a pitcher assumes a defensive position, the designated hitter is lost. In either league you can move the pitcher to a defensive position and back to the mound, but you can only do it once per inning. Dave would be better trying this in the NL.

http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/of...s/batter_6.jsp

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by CentralMassHokie

Nope. You'd lose the DH. Per the major league rulebook:



Rule 6.10

Huh. I guess the Red Sox aren't really thinking clearly about this then. This is valid for the NL, but unless they leave McCarty in as pitcher - since he would be a good DH replacement - this won't function the way it does for the Brewers and Brooks Kieschnick (however it's spelled).

It also explains why Rocky Colavito was able to do it, since he played in the 50's and 60's.

[CentralMassHokie]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

you would think you'd see this a lot more often on teams with a few interchangeable parts on the field (outfield or 1st base would be the only serious candidates I think) and a pitcher who can at least not make a major mistake playing at that position for a batter or two.

Being a Sox fan, a bunch of us have been having this discussion lately. The reason it's not real valuable today is because of the construction of major league rosters.

Most teams carry at least 2 guys who kill lefties/righties, because they carry 11 or 12 pitchers. If the difference between your two LOOGYs or ROOGYs is so great that you'd take the risk of putting them in another position defensively, lose the DH (AL), and burn a second position player (to replace the one displaced by the pitcher), then it's likely your team isn't very good to begin with.

There's such a marginal advantage gained here that it just doesn't outweigh the potential losses. If it's such a close game that you'd try this, it's likely that you're going to wish you had the extra bench player you burn through later on to either pinch hit/run/defense.

Now, if a team wanted to construct their roster with an 8 or 9 man staff, then this sort of swingman becomes much more valuable. I'd love to see a team try that, because the LaRussian-bullpen bores the crap out of me.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Rizon

Looks like that might have happened to him twice.

I could be mistaken, but I believe the time Fernando move to a position and came back to pitch was when he was moved to 1B. The game where he played LF and RF I believe was an extra inning game where Lasorda put him into the game because they were out of position players and he shuttled back and forth depending on left/right batters. Cardinals did the same thing in a game in the late 80s.

[CentralMassHokie]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Huh. I guess the Red Sox aren't really thinking clearly about this then.

This is really just a flyer for McCarty, since he's not likely to make the roster in any other fashion.

From the Sox point of view, if McCarty turned out to be a decent lefty reliever, they'd likely carry an 11 man staff, with McCarty as the 14th position player, it gives them a little flexibility.

Need to mop up a big win/loss, throw McCarty. Need a late inning defensive replacement, in goes McCarty. Got a game that goes into extra innings and need to get out a single lefty, in goes McCarty.

This is valid for the NL, but unless they leave McCarty in as pitcher - since he would be a good DH replacement - this won't function the way it does for the Brewers and Brooks Kieschnick (however it's spelled).

You've obviously never seen McCarty hit

[robbgmaier]

even with DH implications, the sox still could do this, it would really only happen late in the game, late enough that you wouldn't have to worry about batting again, or that you could afford to pinch hit for pitcher....i don't think the DH thing is all that big a deal

also, I don't think the original pitcher gets any warm ups when he resumes the mound....

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I could be mistaken, but I believe the time Fernando move to a position and came back to pitch was when he was moved to 1B. The game where he played LF and RF I believe was an extra inning game where Lasorda put him into the game because they were out of position players and he shuttled back and forth depending on left/right batters.

I think that's correct. and I want to say it was against the Phillies, but I'm probably just full of it.

[McSweeny]

is that SOSH lingo i see? over here at FOFC?

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I could be mistaken, but I believe the time Fernando move to a position and came back to pitch was when he was moved to 1B. The game where he played LF and RF I believe was an extra inning game where Lasorda put him into the game because they were out of position players and he shuttled back and forth depending on left/right batters. Cardinals did the same thing in a game in the late 80s.

I think I actually saw that game. If I remember right, it was one of those crazy long games in Houston where it went something like 17 or so innings. Fernando went to 1B for a bit and Eddie Murray went to 3rd. I believe the game also featured Jeff Hamilton striking out future-MVP Ken Caminiti. Pre-steroid, I'd presume.

[DukeRulesMAB]

For the record, the best instance of this in recent years was a game between the '86 Mets (my alltime favorite team) and the Reds. I remember the general incident clear as day, though I was only 8 at the time (a Mets fan in Reds country). Details, though, come from Baseball Dynasties as a source.

July 22, 1986.

In the 10th inning, Eric Davis ran for Pete Rose. He slid into 3rd on a steal, and ended up getting in a brawl with Ray Knight. Both of them and Kevin Mitchell (playing right field in a late substitution) that night. As you can imagine, this left the Mets short-handed, as there had already been a number of subs. Gary Carter ended up playing 3rd base, while Jesse Orosco (then a spry 41, or so )was sent to right field. With Roger McDowell on the mound, he and Orosco switched places depending on whether a RH or LH hitter was up. The pitcher also would switch between left and right field, Mookie Wilson playing the other, depending on the hitter (RH/LH, pull/spray, etc).

Orosco and McDowell combined for 5 shutout innings, Orosco recorded a putout, and the Mets won in the bottom of the 14th on a 3 run HR by shortstop (hehe) Howard Johnson.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by DukeRulesMAB

For the record, the best instance of this in recent years was a game between the '86 Mets (my alltime favorite team) and the Reds. I remember the general incident clear as day, though I was only 8 at the time (a Mets fan in Reds country). Details, though, come from Baseball Dynasties as a source.

July 22, 1986.

In the 10th inning, Eric Davis ran for Pete Rose. He slid into 3rd on a steal, and ended up getting in a brawl with Ray Knight. Both of them and Kevin Mitchell (playing right field in a late substitution) that night. As you can imagine, this left the Mets short-handed, as there had already been a number of subs. Gary Carter ended up playing 3rd base, while Jesse Orosco (then a spry 41, or so )was sent to right field. With Roger McDowell on the mound, he and Orosco switched places depending on whether a RH or LH hitter was up. The pitcher also would switch between left and right field, Mookie Wilson playing the other, depending on the hitter (RH/LH, pull/spray, etc).

Orosco and McDowell combined for 5 shutout innings, Orosco recorded a putout, and the Mets won in the bottom of the 14th on a 3 run HR by shortstop (hehe) Howard Johnson.

That's the one I was trying to come up with earlier....I was at that game HoJo's homerun was hit about 10 rows behind me in the right field stands.

Edit - That game is also the reason I will always hate the Mets...and Ray Knight. That brawl at third started with a hard tag by Knight...when Davis stood up and started jawing with him, the ump grabbed Davis in a bearhug from behind. Knight took that opportunity to cheap shot Davis with a right to the face.

The worst time of my life long love affair with the Reds was when that bastard was hired on to be manager...

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by PunkyQB

Yep ... absolutely legal to do that.

I still remember my jaw dropping one day when I was a kid and I witnessed Don Zimmer (managing my Cubs) send Rick Suttcliffe from the mound out to left-field for 1 hitter, use a reliever, then swap Suttcliffe right back out to the mound.

I remember watching that game on WGN! I can't remember who the pitcher was, but Sutt's as likely as any.

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by CentralMassHokie

Being a Sox fan, a bunch of us have been having this discussion lately. The reason it's not real valuable today is because of the construction of major league rosters.

Most teams carry at least 2 guys who kill lefties/righties, because they carry 11 or 12 pitchers. If the difference between your two LOOGYs or ROOGYs is so great that you'd take the risk of putting them in another position defensively, lose the DH (AL), and burn a second position player (to replace the one displaced by the pitcher), then it's likely your team isn't very good to begin with.

There's such a marginal advantage gained here that it just doesn't outweigh the potential losses. If it's such a close game that you'd try this, it's likely that you're going to wish you had the extra bench player you burn through later on to either pinch hit/run/defense.

Now, if a team wanted to construct their roster with an 8 or 9 man staff, then this sort of swingman becomes much more valuable. I'd love to see a team try that, because the LaRussian-bullpen bores the crap out of me.

Well, this is true in the AL but not so much in the NL. In the league that actually requires some roster strategy (ahem ), you can't afford to carry 12 pitchers or else you're really left lacking on the bench come the 7th-9th innings when you need that extra hitter for a double switch. In the NL, most teams carry 10 or 11 pitchers: 5 starters, one or two long relief scrub/spot starter, lefty specialist, 7th inning guy, setup, and closer.

SI

[Vince]

Yeah...I couldn't come up with a reason to myself as to why it would be illegal, but it just didn't sound right. Combine that with the fact that I haven't been around long enough to remember any of these situations that you guys have brought up, and there's your reason as to my confusion

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by VPI97

That's the one I was trying to come up with earlier....I was at that game HoJo's homerun was hit about 10 rows behind me in the right field stands.

Edit - That game is also the reason I will always hate the Mets...and Ray Knight. That brawl at third started with a hard tag by Knight...when Davis stood up and started jawing with him, the ump grabbed Davis in a bearhug from behind. Knight took that opportunity to cheap shot Davis with a right to the face.

The worst time of my life long love affair with the Reds was when that bastard was hired on to be manager...

Are you serious ? Wow- that's on my list of games I would love to have been at. At the end- did you guys figure you'd witnessed something that wasn't likely to happen again ?

[CentralMassHokie]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

is that SOSH lingo i see? over here at FOFC?

Well, I don't think LOOGY or ROOGY are limited to SoSH, but I've been known to post there from time to time.

[CentralMassHokie]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Well, this is true in the AL but not so much in the NL. In the league that actually requires some roster strategy (ahem ), you can't afford to carry 12 pitchers or else you're really left lacking on the bench come the 7th-9th innings when you need that extra hitter for a double switch. In the NL, most teams carry 10 or 11 pitchers: 5 starters, one or two long relief scrub/spot starter, lefty specialist, 7th inning guy, setup, and closer.

SI

Quite true, though I'm not sure there are any NL teams that only carry 10 pitchers any more.

Actually, maybe in April, though I need to take a look at some rosters from last season.

At any rate, it still holds that if you're so worried about the drop from one lefty specialist to another lefty in your pen - for one hitter, then I think your team has bigger problems. Especially since you're still burning an extra position player, which as you've said, are more valuable in the NL.

Now, if you had a position player already in the game who could pitch, that's a different story. In that case (since you don't bring in anyone new), the marginal value of having, a righty-specialist 1b come in for one batter between lefties, has some value (assuming the 1b-pitcher is good enough).

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Aadik

Are you serious ? Wow- that's on my list of games I would love to have been at. At the end- did you guys figure you'd witnessed something that wasn't likely to happen again ?

Actually the pitcher/position switching was just a sidenote (for me) to the fight & 14th inning home run. Of course, I was only 12, so when I saw Orosco/McDowell in the outfield, I probably just thought "Cool" and went back to eating Cracker Jack

[CubsFan915]

Perfectly legal - as long as the pitcher remains on the field, you can bring him back to the mound every other batter, if you want.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by CentralMassHokie

Well, I don't think LOOGY or ROOGY are limited to SoSH, but I've been known to post there from time to time.

i know

just making light of the whole situation with G38 and some others getting peeved at the copying of comments and posts

[Ksyrup]

According to Gammons, looks like the point is moot...



"The David McCarty pitching experiment was noble, but it ended quickly, throwing 81-83 mph against the Phillies in Clearwater."

[lcjjdnh]

Interesting story relating to this from a high school baseball game in my county yesterday:

hxxp://www.nj.com/hssports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1083145837289250.xml

In one of the stranger scenarios of the season, senior right-hander David Vega earned both the victory and the save and drove in two runs for Arts, which snapped a 48-game losing streak by defeating University, 11-8, yesterday in Newark.
Vega (1-4) allowed five runs on five hits and one walk with six strikeouts in the first five innings and left the mound to play shortstop with Arts leading, 11-5. Vega re-entered the game in the bottom of the seventh inning and struck out the final batter with two out and the bases loaded to earn the save for Arts (1-7), which halted a slide that dated back to May 11, 2001.

Vega also tripled home two runs when Arts scored eight runs in the second inning to take an 8-1 lead. Jose Serviveda went 2-for-4 with a double and two RBI for University (0-7).

[Maple Leafs]

Weird... I knew it was a legal move, but it never occured to me that someone could earn a win and save in the same game that way. I'm assuming MLB has some sort of rule that a save only goes when you enter the game for the first time in a save situation?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Weird... I knew it was a legal move, but it never occured to me that someone could earn a win and save in the same game that way. I'm assuming MLB has some sort of rule that a save only goes when you enter the game for the first time in a save situation?

I think the rule specifically says you can only earn a save if you are the non-winning pitcher, and you do A, B, and C...something to that effect.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Even though, technically, he did save the win, didn't he ? Whether it's his or somebody else's to begin with is another matter...

[Young Drachma]

I imagine the save rule in HS baseball is totally different than the majors. Here is the official MLB save rule:

Rule 10.20 credits a pitcher with a save when he meets all three of the following conditions:
(1) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club; and
(2) He is not the winning pitcher; and
(3) He qualifies under one of the following conditions:
(a) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning; or
(b) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces); or
(c) He pitches effectively for at least three innings. No more than one save may be credited in each game.



Interesting article on the save rule: http://espn.go.com/mlb/starkclosers.html

[Young Drachma]

Dola-

There is an unofficial stat called a "hold" that they award if a player who is under save conditions, but is pulled before he can earn it. I think there are actually two different definitions, but the majors doesn't recognize it or at least, they didn't at least I remember.

Here is some banter about it by Rob Neyer: http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2000/0523/546788.html

First, a little background. The hold was invented in 1986 by John Dewan and Mike O'Donnell, who worked together on The Chicago Baseball Report. Here's their definition, as it appears in the STATS Baseball Scoreboard: 1996...


A Hold is credited any time a relief pitcher enters a game in a Save Situation, records at least one out, and leaves the game never having relinquished the lead.


In other words, you have to enter a game in a save situation, get somebody out, and exit the game with the same save situation intact. John Dewan is now the big cheese at STATS, Inc., where they continue to tabulate holds based on that definition. Holds were first exposed to a wide audience a few years ago, when USA Today, through box scores supplied by STATS, listed them on a daily basis.

However, in 1994 STATS lost the USA Today account to SportsTicker, and the latter parties decided to come up with their own version of the hold. The new definition was different in two respects. One, a pitcher does not have to retire a batter to get a hold. All he has to do is leave with the save situation intact, whether he gets anyone out or not. There's another difference. You know how a pitcher can get a save no matter what the score, as long as he pitches three or more innings? According to STATS, that save situation can lead to a hold opportunity as well, but SportsTicker doesn't credit holds in those big-lead situations.

[Ksyrup]

On this topic, I found reference to a game in 1970 in which Sam McDowell of the Indians pitched into the 8th inning, got 2 outs, had 2 on with a 2-run lead and Frank Howard coming up, and he was put at 2nd base as a right-hander was brought in to walk Howard and pitch to the next guy. The next guy bounced to 3rd, who threw to McDowell covering 2nd for the force to end the inning. McDowell came back to the mound in the 9th and struck out the side to end the game.

[rkmsuf]

I like the title of the thread

Is this legal(in Baseball). Taking no chances that someone may be confused.