Bill Simmons take on Wrestlemania

[MikeVic]

I know I'm probably in the minority here, but Bill Simmons take on Wrestlemania (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/040315) struck a bad note in me... I agree with some of the stuff he said (the length of the show, and a couple of the matches really sucked), but a lot of what he said left a bitter taste in my mouth. It's probably because I'm a smark, and Bill is a casual fan... but I really hated that article.

[Fidatelo]

I found it hilarious. Of course, I didn't watch Wrestlemania so I can't speak for its accuracy.

[Hammer755]

How can you not love this blurb:

5:17 -- Actual quote from Jim Ross: "Good God, Ric Flair's catheter just popped out! Urine is spraying everywhere! My god, this is terrible!!!!!"

[Suicane75]

1. "but if I were writing a TV pilot about two renegade cops from the 1970s, they would definitely be named Garrison Cade and Mark Jindrak."

That was funny.


My take on the show is this. Great start to the show but the Goldberg/Lesner match totaly killed the flow until the Angle/Guerrero match.
It wasn't a great show, it was decent. But in the end, at about 11:40pm last night, 10 guys in my house were all standing up yelling "tap tap tap" as Benoit had the crossface locked on, and when HHH tapped we all just went nuts. It was a great finish, a great match and a total mark out moment for anyone who's been waiting for Benoit to get his title run.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

1. "but if I were writing a TV pilot about two renegade cops from the 1970s, they would definitely be named Garrison Cade and Mark Jindrak."

That was funny.


My take on the show is this. Great start to the show but the Goldberg/Lesner match totaly killed the flow until the Angle/Guerrero match.
It wasn't a great show, it was decent. But in the end, at about 11:40pm last night, 10 guys in my house were all standing up yelling "tap tap tap" as Benoit had the crossface locked on, and when HHH tapped we all just went nuts. It was a great finish, a great match and a total mark out moment for anyone who's been waiting for Benoit to get his title run.

Yeah, there were good parts in the article, and funny parts too... but the overall tone was that he thought it sucked, and he was inaccurate in a few statements. I also saw this PPV with about 9 or 10 people, and we were all going crazy for the Taker intro and the last match. There was a stretch of a few matches that were pretty boring, but I forget where it started and ended.

[Suicane75]

Eh, I didn't mind it so much, it was clear he's not anything more than a casual fan, so I can live with it.

[Ksyrup]

"A staggered 10-man Cruiserweight title match -- finish off one guy, the next one comes in -- an idea apparently inspired by the Hilton sisters."

Haha!

Wrestling is a soap opera. I do not watch soap operas.

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

It's probably because I'm a smark

What the hell is a smark?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

What the hell is a smark?

It's got to be some highly technical wrestling term...

[Suicane75]

Smart Mark, a guy who understands that it's fake but still enjoys the show.

A mixture of old carny slang for wrestling, Smart being a guy who realized it was fake and of course Mark for a guy who didn't realize it was fake. There, now blast me.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

It's got to be some highly technical wrestling term...

"Mark" = Someone who doesn't know anything about the way the business works. They know it's scripted (every wrestling fan above the age of five these days knows it's scripted) but otherwise are blissfully unaware of just about everything.

"Smart" = Someone who knows all about how the business works. Usually someone who has actually worked in the industry.

"Smark" = Combination of Mark and Smart. Someone who knows a little bit about how the business works, but not nearly as much as they think they do. Hobbies include referring to wrestlers by their real name, reading Internet wrestling sites, and babbling on through the show while annoying the hell out of everyone else who's just there to have a good time.

And yes, I'd be a smark too.

[AlejandroSosa]

professional wrestling still exists? Coulda fooled me.

[rkmsuf]

See that's where they blew it. Back in the day people actually believed it was real. Now they do such stupid crap that it couldn't be real. Before that it was plausible but cracking someone's body in half is obviously false to just about everyone...

[rkmsuf]

dola

Although the fact that people shell out 50 bucks today for the PPV says they are doing ok...

[Maple Leafs]

Apparently they made $2.5M on Sunday. Not bad for one day's work in a dead industry.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

See that's where they blew it. Back in the day people actually believed it was real. Now they do such stupid crap that it couldn't be real. Before that it was plausible but cracking someone's body in half is obviously false to just about everyone...

Back in the day? Ya mean when we were kids?
I know i'm touchy cause im a huge wrestling fan, but when people go around saying stuff like "wow, you know it's fake don't ya?" It irritates the hell out of me. I wouldn't go up to someone and say "Lord of the rings, you know that's fake right?"

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Back in the day? Ya mean when we were kids?
I know i'm touchy cause im a huge wrestling fan, but when people go around saying stuff like "wow, you know it's fake don't ya?" It irritates the hell out of me. I wouldn't go up to someone and say "Lord of the rings, you know that's fake right?"

There were far more "adults" in the George the Animal Steele era that were convinced of the realness than there are today.

What that means I have no idea and as Maple said they brought in 2.5 million...

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

"Lord of the rings, you know that's fake right?"

lol

[rkmsuf]

Combine LOTR and WWE and you've got a winner...

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

There were far more "adults" in the George the Animal Steele era that were convinced of the realness than there are today.

What that means I have no idea and as Maple said they brought in 2.5 million...

Youre right about that, sorry if i came off defensive. It was a totaly different generation back then though. I just get annoyed when people goof on something I dig so much, but i guess thats to be expected.

[CamEdwards]

Hobbit Smackdown.... I'd pay to see that.

[Maple Leafs]

See, that's the big secret of wrestling these days. Not that it's fake, but that everyone knows it's fake and enjoys it anyways. I can't understand why people find that so hard to get their heads around. If you can enjoy a movie or a sitcom or CSI or whatever without worrying about how real it is, why can't a wrestling fan do the same? Suicane's right, telling a wrestling fan that it's fake is no less pointless and annoying than telling someone that Friends is scripted. Do we look down on people who watch Friends?*

As far as how wrestling was percevied "back in the day", I'm not sure people thought it was real so much as they never really thought that hard about it at all. It was what it was. I view it similar to how reality TV is viewed today. Twenty years from now our kids will wonder how we thought it was all legit. And we'll tell them that we knew it really wasn't, but we played along because it was harmless fun.

*(Yes we do, and rightly so.)

[MikeVic]

Yeah, I should've defined smark.. I've seen a few threads about wrestling on here, so I assumed most people knew what it meant. It also annoys me when people say "don't you know it's fake? Look, he's using ketchup right now!" And when I try to explain the whole blading (cutting yourself to bleed) thing, they don't believe me. I guess I should show pictures of some of these guys' foreheads.

[Suicane75]

Which reminds me, Micheals mid air blade job last night was a thing of beauty.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Which reminds me, Micheals mid air blade job last night was a thing of beauty.

I couldn't catch it when he first did it, and everyone that was watching with me were surprised that he was bleeding... you can see it on the replay of the slingshot into the turnbuckle though. Looks like he cut himself right as Benoit picked him up by his legs. He's probably the best at doing that.

[Maple Leafs]

How was the show, by the way? I didn't see it and I've heard pretty mixed reviews.

[SegRat]

This is why boxing still does ok, some people still believe it is real.

[Franklinnoble]

This is right about the point where I comment on the blatant homoeroticism in professional wrestling that most fans seem to ignore.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

How was the show, by the way? I didn't see it and I've heard pretty mixed reviews.

Cena vs Big Show started it off and was good for what it was, crowd was hyped for Cena so it was ok.

Jericho vs Christian was real good and the Trish heel turn was real well done, a very good match and continuation of the angle.

They did a skit with Mean Gene and Bobby Heenan being trapped in a storage room with Moolah and May Young, very funny.

The RAW Tag Team Title match was eh.

The HOF induction was pretty nice.

The cruiswerweight open was decent but way too fast. Ultimo Dragon slipped coming out and the slipped climbing the turnbuckles before the match even started, that was kind of funny. Everything in the match went too quickly but there some pretty cool spots. Kidman nearly botched a SS to the outside and went headfirst into someones stomach, i forget who, but if it were a bit shorter he would of gone head first into the floor.

The Lesner/Goldberg match was the turning point of the show in a bad way.
Crowd started the "you sold out" chants right away and both Brock and Goldberg looked very flustered, it was almost like an ECW crowd as they turned on both guys before the match even started and then turned on the match itself about 5 seconds in. Chants of "you sold out" "Hogan" and "end this match" made it almost surreal. The match itself sucked donkey balls as outside of a sweet press into a powerslam by Goldberg they did nothing but restholds and lockups. Austin stunned both guys after the match but the crowd went into a big lull for almost 90 minutes afterwards.

The smackdown tag match was eh.

The women title match was eh.

The bra and panties match featured a ton of crotch shots as they kept rolling each other up, providing numerous crotch closeups. While the T&A was pretty nice the whole thing fell kind of flat.

The majorit of the Angle/Guerro match was tecnhicly sound but it did nothing to liven the crowd up. The end was pretty hot though and it got the crowd hyped.

The Undertaker entrance got a big pop but it really was a letdown, he came out to the druids and Paul Bearer and his old music but he was essentially the same guy save a cowboy hat and a black trenchcoat, looked more like a dead cowboy than anything else. I think it was a let down for alot of the crowd who expected a return to the full Dead Man gimmick. The match itself blew Donkey Balls as Kane acted intimidated and was basicaly treated as a jobber.

The Main even stole the show and saved it from being a dissaster. The crowd was clearly behind Benoit from the beggining. The booed everything Micheals did and popped like hell everytime Benoit was on offense. Benoit locked in the Sharp Shooter on HHH and the crowd exploded but Micheals hit him with a superkick. The end came when Benoit tossed Micheals out of the ring and turned around, it looked like the perfect setup for HHH to hit the pedigree, and he delivered the kick and put Benoit into position but he was able to hook the arm and roll him into the crossface, HHH just about had the ropes when Benoit rolled him over and back into the center of the ring and HHH tapped.

If you take away the main event it was an average/below average show, but all anyone is really gonna remember is the main event so that saved it.

[wig]

Lord of the Rings really happened.

[Deattribution]

Pretty spot on review Suicane.


Overall if Benoit hadn't won, the show would of been terrible, it was literally the saving grace of the show. Everything before that was so misable it wasn't even funny, it felt more like a 5 hour Raw up until the final match.

I lost all respect for the Undertaker when he came out as Maverick, all that build up just to change his music. Big letdown.

Nobody at all seemed to turn it up, as if it was a big show... everyone just seemed to be going through the motions except for Eddie-Kurt and the triple threat.

[SegRat]

I still can't believe Triple H dropped the belt at wrestle mania. I really didn't think there was any chance of that happening.

[Maple Leafs]

Was the crowd into the Benoit win? They've seemed pretty mixed for him over the last few months.

[Suicane75]

The MSG crowd was a very "smart" ECWish crowd all night, so yes, they popped huge when he won the belt and they were clearly pulling for him the entire match. It was a very odd crowd from the Lesner/Goldberg match on. It was almost like watching Wrestlemania at ECW arena.

[panerd]

Simmons did hit the T&A match right on the head. I watch these pay-per-views all the time with my brother in law and my sister always seems to walk in on either the T&A matches or the comic matches like the Hurricane. I don't mind her thinking I am a loser about watching the Rock or Beniot, but I can't imagine what she thinks when me and her husband are watching Stacy's panties in Torrie Wilson's face.

I do have to echo the shit that we catch from our friends as wrestling fans. I have had my friends engrossed in a good episode of smackdown (A mysterio match or Cena rap) only to stop watching as they realize they will lose all credibility making fun of me if they watch much longer. Than I will be at a bar with them and their wives and they will start talking about the bachlorette or the Paris Hilton show. Come again on who is the loser here?

[MikeVic]

You forgot the Rock 'n' Sock vs Evolution... which was pretty good.. end surprised me, as Orton hit the RKO on Foley for the win.

I think this show had a couple of good matches, one great match, and one extremely good match (match of the year so far for sure, and one of the best Wrestlemania matches ever) in the RAW Triple Threat Title match...

4 and a half hours was just way too long for this... they could've cut out a few of the really crappy matches.

[PineTar]

Originally Posted by SportsGuy

On the bright side, Angle's bloated head makes him look like the white Barry Bonds. Would you like to renew your Balco membership for another year, Mr. Angle?

Comic genious. Surely even the WWE diehards can appreciate the jabs SG was taking at the players in your 'sport'.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by PineTar

Comic genious. Surely even the WWE diehards can appreciate the jabs SG was taking at the players in your 'sport'.

It's not a sport, genius. And I don't remember how big Angle's head was during the Olympics, but I always remember him having a big head and neck... anyone have any pictures comparing Angle during the Olympics and after? That was one of the lines that annoyed me. I watched a Kurt Angle biography thing, and he said he trained 8 hours a day for 4 years to make it to the Olympics. Yes, he could be lying, but I choose to believe him. Saying that he's like Bonds is just wrong...

[AlejandroSosa]

yeah, saying angle is like bonds implies that Bonds has actually done 'roids like every professional wrestler. But there's no doubt that a larger % of wrestlers are on the juice than athletes in any other sport.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

You forgot the Rock 'n' Sock vs Evolution... which was pretty good.. end surprised me, as Orton hit the RKO on Foley for the win.

That was the most meaningless match on the whole card... a 2 on 3 is like a Raw main event, no matter who's in it.

[PineTar]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

It's not a sport, genius. And I don't remember how big Angle's head was during the Olympics, but I always remember him having a big head and neck... anyone have any pictures comparing Angle during the Olympics and after? That was one of the lines that annoyed me. I watched a Kurt Angle biography thing, and he said he trained 8 hours a day for 4 years to make it to the Olympics. Yes, he could be lying, but I choose to believe him. Saying that he's like Bonds is just wrong...

I said 'sport'. How can anyone who watches wrestling be so humorless?

edited for the innocent.

[Sun Tzu]

Suicane's review was about right on. The Rock n' Sock tag match was an alright match, but it did seem very RAWish. I was pleasantly surprised at how ECW like the crowd was, and I was laughing my ass off at all of the chants that came up with the Lesnar/Goldberg match. I too was yelling "TAP! TAP! TAP!" when Beniot put Helmsley in the Crossface. I thought HBK put on a great match too though, and watching him turn to HHH with a blood covered face while motioning with his hand "you and me" will be one of those wrestling moments that will stick with me for a while.

[Suicane75]

I know that things are being shuffled around next week, but I would not mind at all the 3 way fued between Micheals/HHH/Benoit continuing. At the very least I hope Micheals and Benoit go at it at the next PPV. All the matches in this fued since Benoit go involved have been awesome.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I know that things are being shuffled around next week, but I would not mind at all the 3 way fued between Micheals/HHH/Benoit continuing. At the very least I hope Micheals and Benoit go at it at the next PPV. All the matches in this fued since Benoit go involved have been awesome.

As long as Benoit got to pin/submit HHH one more time to certify him as a contender, and not just a fluke champ, I'd have no problem with that either. Even if he dropped the title after that.

[Suicane75]

I think the next PPV in Edmonton will be a ladder match, either Benoit vs Micheals or another triple threat match.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I think the next PPV in Edmonton will be a ladder match, either Benoit vs Micheals or another triple threat match.

I can't see them going that route. With the new "more realistic" style they're pushing, it would seem odd to do a gimmick match so soon.

I'll be interested to see if they do a HBK vs Benoit match in Edmonton. The crowd will already be rabid in favor of Benoit in his home town, but Canadians still hate Michaels. The heat for that march could be off the charts.

[Greyroofoo]

Shawn Micheal stills wrestles? Is he still part of the rockers?

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by PineTar

I said 'sport'. How can anyone who watches wrestling be so humorless?

edited for the innocent.

There's three of four things that piss me off when someone mentions them about wrestling... the "you know it's fake right?," "that's ketchup on his head! Not blood!," and a combination line: "how can this be a sport when it's fake. You know it's fake, right? They all go for beers after the match!"

I've heard these things so many times. Not to mention when I say I watch wrestling, the chuckle I receive followed by shit like: "oh yeah, I watched it a bit back when Hogan and that Iraq guy fought. It was more believable then, but I still knew it was fake! I can't believe you still watch it. How old are you?" When you know they did more than just watch it a bit. Didn't see what you put before the edit, but what I said is just something triggered in me when certain phrases are said about wrestling.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I think the next PPV in Edmonton will be a ladder match, either Benoit vs Micheals or another triple threat match.

That's why I thought Benoit wouldn't win the title at Wrestlemania. Since the next PPV is in Edmonton, I figured he'd win it there. He better notlose it in Edmonton though... that would really suck.

[AlejandroSosa]

this thread is starting to remind me of David Arquette in that one wrestling movie.... "Wrestling's not FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEE!!!"