Brock Lesnar's standard tests. Good, bad?

[MikeVic]

I'm interested in following what happens with Brock Lesnar's tryout for the NFL.. he apparently did some standard tests recently:

Update On Brock Lesnar's NFL Training
Posted By Ashish on 03.23.04

And how he did on his standard tests...

Mike Morris had an update on Brock Lesnar this morning on his radio show. Morris said that Lesnar arrived in Arizona today to start training for his NFL tryouts. He weighed in at 283 lbs, ran a 4.65 40, had a 35 inch vertical jump, a 10 foot standing long jump, and benched 225 lbs. at 30 reps. These are all standard tests that NFL teams do. Brock is expecting to improve these numbers over the next six weeks.

Credit: PWInsider.com

Is this considered ok? Given his size and these results, is it possible to say whether he is at least athletically talented enough to be in the NFL, and at what position? Thanks.

[cthomer5000]

Those look like NFL caliber DE/OLB numbers to me.

[cthomer5000]

how tall is he, and how old is he?

[hukarez]

I think he's like 24?

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

how tall is he, and how old is he?

He's about 6'4" (wrestling tends to exagerate on size, so 6'2"-6'4" is more like it), and around 29 years old as far as I know.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by hukarez

I think he's like 24?

Maybe he's 24.. I'm not sure. heh. I'll have to find out.

[hukarez]

He's definately not 29 years old.

http://www.brocksolid.com/bio.html

[damnMikeBrown]

It's so hard to say.

I was watching the indoor collegiate track championship on espn the other night. The guy who won the 60m ran an equivalent of a 4.08sec 40yd dash.

Speed & strength do not necessarly translate to any sort of football type athletic ability.

Having said that, those numbers for a man that size, are enough to get teams to look into wether or not they think he has, or can develop football skills.

Is this the wrestler guy? Isn't he older? No doubt, like all the pro wrestlers, he's done heavy steroid cycles as well. Might very well cause doubt as to how well those numbers will hold up a year from now...bet he's down to 263 by the end of a season if he gets picked up.

[Leonidas]

Actually, these numbers are phenomenal. I'm a bit shocked if they are indeed accurate. Guys have been known to puff up their numbers. Who is verifying this information or is it based on what Lesnar's trainers are saying?

A guy weighing 283, running a 4.65 40 is very, very rare. That's like Jevon Kearse talent, only even bigger than Kearse. A 35 inch vertical is what really has me skeptical about the validity. There might be no more than 10 CB's in the NFL with that kind of vertical right this minute. I find it very hard to believe a muscle bound white guy could jump like that.

The 30 reps on the weight is probably pretty standard for a guy his size. Not earth shattering, but strong enough he could go toe to toe with most offensive linemen.

If these numbers are accurate, or at least close to accurate, then you have a guy with excellent physical talent, even by NFL standards. I doubt more than 2 or 3 guys in the combine had a package comparable. But considering this guy's association with Vince McMahon, and the propensity of prospects to exaggerate their numbers without a NFL scouts on hand makes me very suspicious.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

Actually, these numbers are phenomenal. I'm a bit shocked if they are indeed accurate. Guys have been known to puff up their numbers. Who is verifying this information or is it based on what Lesnar's trainers are saying?

A guy weighing 283, running a 4.65 40 is very, very rare. That's like Jevon Kearse talent, only even bigger than Kearse. A 35 inch vertical is what really has me skeptical about the validity. There might be no more than 10 CB's in the NFL with that kind of vertical right this minute. I find it very hard to believe a muscle bound white guy could jump like that.

The 30 reps on the weight is probably pretty standard for a guy his size. Not earth shattering, but strong enough he could go toe to toe with most offensive linemen.

If these numbers are accurate, or at least close to accurate, then you have a guy with excellent physical talent, even by NFL standards. I doubt more than 2 or 3 guys in the combine had a package comparable. But considering this guy's association with Vince McMahon, and the propensity of prospects to exaggerate their numbers without a NFL scouts on hand makes me very suspicious.

I just got them from a wrestling news site.. no idea how valid they are, but this guy is a freak... I have to find the video I have of him doing a shooting star press. Maybe the numbers are inflated, or maybe they are accurate... but this guy was something else in wrestling at least.

[cthomer5000]

Well, the age would definitely be a major turn-off to most teams. You really don't see too many linebackers or defensive ends playing in their prime past the age of 30.

for reference, here are some size/speed number from the top 10 prospects at DE, OLB, ILB:

DE
1. 6'3, 277 lbs, 4.75 (Kenechi Udeze, USC)
2. 6'3, 265, 4.70 (Will Smith, Ohio State)
3. 6'4, 278, 4.80 (Antwan Odom, 'Bama)
4. 6'5, 288, 4.95 (Marquise Hill, LSU)
5. 6'3, 275, 4.80 (Darrion Scott, Ohio State)6. 6'3, 251, 4.49
7. 6'3, 254, 4.80
8. 6'3, 253, 4.83
9. 6'5, 264, 4.83

OLB
1. 6'1, 245, 4.55 (D.J. Williams, Miami)
2. 6'3, 231, 4.58 (Karlos Dansby, Auburn)
3. 6'2, 223, 4.55 (Michael Boulware, FSU)
4. 6'1, 240, 4.55 (Teddy Lehman, OU)
5. 6'2, 228, 4.65 (Keyaron Fox, Ga Tech)

ILB
much the same as OLB

He's definitely too heavy for linebacker, but end or even a DT in a 4-3 defense would seem about right.

[damnMikeBrown]

Jackie Chan is really a phenominal athlete too. . .

[cmp]

Originally Posted by damnMikeBrown

It's so hard to say.

Is this the wrestler guy? Isn't he older? No doubt, like all the pro wrestlers, he's done heavy steroid cycles as well. Might very well cause doubt as to how well those numbers will hold up a year from now...bet he's down to 263 by the end of a season if he gets picked up.

I'm pretty sure he hasn't done any steroids. The guy was a National Champion wrestler at Minnesota. I don't think he could have done steroids and gotten away with it.

And he's 26 right now.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by damnMikeBrown

Jackie Chan is really a phenominal athlete too. . .

Yes, he is. But I don't think he's strong enough for the NFL.

[cthomer5000]

and yeah, the 4.65 speed is pretty suspicious for a guy weighing that much.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

and yeah, the 4.65 speed is pretty suspicious for a guy weighing that much.

Maybe, though I've never known The Superstar to lie to me before.

[cthomer5000]

http://sportsblog.org/archives/2004/03/14/001029.php

...the official Web site of Fox Sports reported Wednesday that Lesnar received offers from the Tampa Bay Bucs and the Washington Redskins back in 2000 when he won the NCAA wrestling championship while at the University Of Minnesota. Lesnar, however, turned down those offers and signed with WWE in August 2000.

Lesnar is expected to try out for the Minnesota Vikings this summer.

[cthomer5000]

If that speed is even close to right (lets say 4.8). the weight is close to right, and he has any football instinct, he seems like he could immediately be a situational pass-rusher (think KGB of the Packers a few years ago). That's the sort of thing that would be able to help him justify making the roster while having some time to develop as a more complete all-around player.

I don't know why I'm giving this subject so much thought...

[MikeVic]

I find it intriguing to see a guy like this try to make it into the NFL, and am rooting for him all the way.

[mckerney]

http://www.twincities.com/mld/pionee...ts/8174870.htm

Tice said there is no truth to rumors that Twin Cities-based pro wrestler Brock Lesner, a former heavyweight wrestler with the Gophers, is preparing for a tryout with the Vikings. "It's not happening," Tice said.

[cthomer5000]

Good, I hope Green Bay signs him and he ends up killing the Vikes a few years from now. The Vilkings are one of the teams I hate for absolutely no reason.

[Sun Tzu]

I think it's important to keep in mind that most of todays wrestlers (whether you believe they're on steriods or not is up to your own stupidity and inability to get out of the year 1988) are better athletes than the majority of today's professional athletes. Every athlete who has ever given wrestling a shot has not only looked awful and clumsy in the ring, but obviously couldn't handle the physical part of it either.

[Leonidas]

The quote from Tice, combined with the complete lack of interest by anyone in the NFL is leading me more and more to think this is a work, complete with bogus data that make him look like a first rounder. I'm just wondering which retired NFL star McMahon has holed up that will come out to "challenge" Lesnar for disrespecting the NFL.

BTW, the list of prospects didn't include that guy from Hampton who had unreal numbers. I can't think of his name, but he weighed around 250 and ran a 4.5 40. I read somewhere he was a hurdler on the track team. Guy had amazing numbers and was being called the small college surprise of the combine.

[Travis]

Not sure if any of you have seen the video of this guys work out, but his standing vertical is amazing. His leg strength and brute upper body strength make any and all of these numbers quite reasonable. On the steroid topic, hard to say what's happened since he left college, but he hasn't bulked up all that much since he won while 'clean', so it wouldn't be shocking to find out that he's never gotten into that sort of thing.

I'd really like the Hawks to take a flyer on him provided he's not looking for some outrageous sort of contract. Having been a wrestler at that level, if he tries to play DE he should have somewhat of a headstart on things by understanding leverage and just being such a physical force. He could be very scary if he's able to pick up the nuances of the game and be a coachable player.

That said, he may come in, demand $4 or $5 million a year, wear out after the preseason and do nothing but become the oddest cheerleader in the NFL.

Imagine being a LT and looking across the line and seeing a guy like that line up against you, might make you want to check into the weight room a few more times a week.

[Travis]

Dola, meant to mention, if he does look at going for DE, that 40 time won't matter, Olympic wrestlers tend to be very, and I mean VERY damn quick over shorter distances which will be another helper for trying this sort of career switch. If he's able to get his timing down on snaps, he'll be scary.

[Hurst2112]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Maybe, though I've never known The Superstar to lie to me before.

Maybe not ever lie, but he does talk out of his ass from time to time.

[Ryche]

This is not a work by WWE

And not all wrestlers use steroids.

I think the only way Lesnar will get a shot in the NFL if he goes to Europe or the CFL to play for a season or two. His age and lack of experience are the two biggest factors against him.

[JeeberD]

Jerry Jones loves ex-baseballplayers, so I bet he would love to take a flyer on an ex-wrestler.

Dear god I hope I'm wrong...

[druez]

If he was a black guy, you guys would be saying his .40 time is great and it would believable. But, since he is a white guy there is no way a guy that size can run a .40 that fast.

Pretty flawed logic.

[damnMikeBrown]

Where the hell did anybody mention race, except you? Where did anybody indicate the color of his skin impeded or assisted his performance, except you?

What an utterly idiotic statement.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by druez

If he was a black guy, you guys would be saying his .40 time is great and it would believable. But, since he is a white guy there is no way a guy that size can run a .40 that fast.

Pretty flawed logic.

Are you kidding me? I'd be suspect of that 40 time coming from ANYONE weighing 280 lbs. I don't even know if there is a single NFL player that size who runs that fast.

Not to mention he's coming from the WWF, not exactly the most straight-forward organization in reporting any numbers. Until we see reported times from a workout in front of NFL scouts, we have incredibly good reason to be skeptical.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by damnMikeBrown

What an utterly idiotic statement.

Yeah, I also would like to drive home just how insanely stupid I thought that comment was. I didn't make that point enough in my previous post.

[druez]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

I find it very hard to believe a muscle bound white guy could jump like that.

Here is a jumping reference to him being a muscle bound white guy.....

Sorry if I took it out of context....

[SirFozzie]

He definitely has some major leaping ability, one of his trademarks was leaping from the floor to the Wrestling ring's apron from a standing start (which is about 3 feet if I remember correctly..) and one of his finishers in OVW (the so called "minor league" to WWE) was a Shooting Star Press, which people 40-50 pounds lighter have trouble doing.

[druez]

1. Julius Peppers, North Carolina (6-6 1/4, 282)
Did not work out at the combine, worked out March 26 at North Carolina. Did 24 strength reps, had a 36½-inch vertical and a 10-foot, 5-inch long jump, and ran two 40-yard dashes (4.69 and 4.71). Played defensive end and tailback in high school (had 46 touchdowns). The AAU team he played on won the National Championship.

7. Charles Grant, Georgia (6-3, 278)
Had 24 strength reps and a 31-inch vertical jump at the combine. Also did cone and shuttle drills. Ran the 40-yard dash on campus for times of 4.64 and 4.74 seconds (on turf). Spent a year in prep school after high school. Was a running back in high school and scored 101 touchdowns in three years. Has very good athletic ability and is just learning to play the position. Hard worker, strong long arms (34 inches). Wish he were just a little taller. Has a good future as a defensive end.


A few examples of big men running quick 40 times.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by druez

A few examples of big men running quick 40 times.

So you name 2 of the elite DE's in the NFL. This is exactly why we should be skeptical about the numbers. The guy is about to turn 27, hasn't played college football, and is coming from the WWF. I don't think we should readily accept that he is automatically in the top percentile of DE prospects in the league.

Again, until I hear numbers reported from a workout with an NFL team, or conducted in front of NFL scouts... I wouldn't put too much faith in the numbers we're hearing.

[druez]

http://archive.profootballweekly.com...sis_032802.asp

Check this out pretty cool info and gives averages of times and weight per position based on the 2002 draft.

[cthomer5000]

Position-by-position comparison of numbers

Pos.	Ht.	Wt.	Reps	40	Vert.	Broad	Shuttle	Cone
QB	6-2 1/4	221	Not tested	4.83	33	9’1"	4.21	7.11
RB	5-11	215	19	4.62	35"	9’7"	4.21	7.10
FB	6-0 1/8	245	22	4.80	33"	9’6"	4.33	7.28
TE	6-4 1/8	256	19	4.83	33"	9’4"	4.27	7.21
WR	6-0 1/2	198	Not tested	4.52	37"	9’11"	4.11	6.93
C	6-3 1/8	298	28	5.23	30.5"	8’4"	4.61	7.66
OG	6-3 7/8	317	26	5.37	28"	8’1"	4.88	8.14
OT	6-6 1/8	321	26	5.29	29.5"	8’7"	4.77	7.92
DE	6-4 1/8	269	25	4.82	35"	9’5"	4.37	7.33
DT	6-3 5/8	302	27	5.10	31"	8’7"	4.54	7.60
ILB	6-2 1/4	244	22	4.82	34.5"	9’5"	4.25	7.10
OLB	6-2 1/8	241	23	4.69	35.5"	9’8"	4.25	7.14
CB	5-11 1/4	193	13	4.57	37"	9’11"	4.20	7.04
FS	6-1 1/8	208	17	4.60	36"	10’0"	4.11	7.01
SS	6-0 1/4	211	21	4.60	36.5	9’11"	4.10	6.89

Ht. — height.
Wt. — weight.
Reps — No. of repetitions lifting 225-pound bench press.
40 — electronically clocked time in 40-yard dash.
Vert. — vertical jump in inches.
Broad — broad jump in feet and inches.
Shuttle — clocked time in 20-yard pro shuttle.
Cone — clocked time in three-cone drill.

[cthomer5000]

that falls right in line with projecting him to be a DE or maybe even a DT in a 4-3 defense.

[druez]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

So you name 2 of the elite DE's in the NFL. This is exactly why we should be skeptical about the numbers. The guy is about to turn 27, hasn't played college football, and is coming from the WWF. I don't think we should readily accept that he is automatically in the top percentile of DE prospects in the league.

Again, until I hear numbers reported from a workout with an NFL team, or conducted in front of NFL scouts... I wouldn't put too much faith in the numbers we're hearing.

Well if you read his story, Minnesota "the college" tried to get him to play football. With that being said, Wrestlers are great atheletes and there is no reason to believe that the raw numbers aren't correct.

Does this translate to football? Of course not.... But, I don't find it hard to believe that a physcial specimen such as him couldn't put up good combine numbers.

Just ask the Eagles how much combine numbers mean and Mike Mamula

[Maple Leafs]

I think a lot of people are just dismissing Lesnar's chances because he's a wrestler and it's fake and there's just no way that a wrestler could have any success if a real sport. If you've actually seen Lesnar perform, it's not tough to believe the numbers. They could be exaggerated, sure, but it wouldn't shock me at all if at least the strength and leaping numbers were legit.

That said, even if all the numbers are there, that doesn't mean he's an NFLer. Can he learn a playbook? Can he read and react to an offense? Does he have the first clue how to wrap and tackle? That's what we need to wait and see.

[druez]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I think a lot of people are just dismissing Lesnar's chances because he's a wrestler and it's fake and there's just no way that a wrestler could have any success if a real sport. If you've actually seen Lesnar perform, it's not tough to believe the numbers. They could be exaggerated, sure, but it wouldn't shock me at all if at least the strength and leaping numbers were legit.

That said, even if all the numbers are there, that doesn't mean he's an NFLer. Can he learn a playbook? Can he read and react to an offense? Does he have the first clue how to wrap and tackle? That's what we need to wait and see.

I'm willing to bet he can wrap and tackle. He was an All American College wrestler.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by druez

I'm willing to bet he can wrap and tackle. He was an All American College wrestler.

Yeah, good point. OK, substitute "take an angle and close on a guy" and you see my point.

[digamma]

1. He hasn't played organized football in ten or so years. Who cares if Minnesota tried to get him to play or if he was offered a "try-out" when he graduated from there? Based on his lack of experience alone, he would be a long, long, long shot. For every freak athlete who hasn't played football, there is a freak athlete who has been playing big time college football.

2. No mainstream sports media is covering this. He's not listed as a prospect anywhere. we have links to another message board, a wrestling magazine and a fox sports article that came out the day after he announced his retirement.

It is not real, or if it is real, it is a freakin' pipe dream.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by digamma

1. He hasn't played organized football in ten or so years. Who cares if Minnesota tried to get him to play or if he was offered a "try-out" when he graduated from there? Based on his lack of experience alone, he would be a long, long, long shot. For every freak athlete who hasn't played football, there is a freak athlete who has been playing big time college football.

2. No mainstream sports media is covering this. He's not listed as a prospect anywhere. we have links to another message board, a wrestling magazine and a fox sports article that came out the day after he announced his retirement.

It is not real, or if it is real, it is a freakin' pipe dream.

Was there noise when Kurt Warner went from stacking cans in a grocery store to became the #2 QB for the Rams behind Trent Green? (and eventually the QB with the greatest QB rating in NFL history) Was there noise when 29 year old beer truck driver Micheal Lewis, who never played HS or college football, was brought in by the Saints to possibly return kicks? (and eventually went on to even be a pro bowl kick return man)

This stuff is rare, but one thing the Lewis example shows is raw talent can get you a chance and even more. Lewis got a chance with the team simply by playing a few months of small league arena football(the only football he played in his life) the year before and running a 4.2something in front of Saints officials. Lesnar's athletic ability is real. Will it translate? Probably not, but stranger things have happened, and just because no NFL news outlet thinks Lesnar's story will amount to anything, does not mean that will be the case.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Was there noise when Kurt Warner went from stacking cans in a grocery store to became the #2 QB for the Rams behind Trent Green? (and eventually the QB with the greatest QB rating in NFL history) Was there noise when 29 year old beer truck driver Micheal Lewis, who never played HS or college football, was brought in by the Saints to possibly return kicks? (and eventually went on to even be a pro bowl kick return man)

This stuff is rare, but one thing the Lewis example shows is raw talent can get you a chance and even more. Lewis got a chance with the team simply by playing a few months of small league arena football(the only football he played in his life) the year before and running a 4.2something in front of Saints officials. Lesnar's athletic ability is real. Will it translate? Probably not, but stranger things have happened, and just because no NFL news outlet thinks Lesnar's story will amount to anything, does not mean that will be the case.

First, I didn't say that the reason it will not be the case is that media is not covering the story. The media coverage is relevant because if he were really trying to cross over, there would be some legitimate public interest. It would likely be a news story--as opposed to a guy who played arena football and makes a team as a third quarterback (guys do that all the time) or someone that prior to his NFL experience was delivering beer or laying tile (it is heartwarming and people like it when those guys succeed, but it isn't really a news story until they succeed). My first paragraph regarding his not having played organized football is why I think he won't succeed. My second paragraph about media coverage was more about why I don't think this is real. Of course, I could be proven wrong on both accounts.

[Tigercat]

I think the reason the media isn't into the story, can be told in the reaction you see on all NFL message boards regarding this story. "Yea hes on steriods" "A wrestler playing football? What a joke." There is a huge section of the sporting population that sees professional wrestling and wrestlers as a complete joke, and refuse to believe that it could have ANY relationship to legitimate athletic endeavors. Its quite an unusual version of elitism. Very strange how the Harlem Globetrotters, in their exhibition/noncompetitive days, could be seen as a legitiment scripted exhibition of athletic ability, yet professional wrestling is always a complete joke. I think you see those two compete ideas at play in this very thread. I think sports media outlets such as ESPN and Sports Illustrated have always stayed on the side of the fence that always laughs at professional wrestling, and the smaller sports media has followed suit. As I alluded to earlier, there is a lot of talk on message boards about this story.

[druez]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

I think the reason the media isn't into the story, can be told in the reaction you see on all NFL message boards regarding this story. "Yea hes on steriods" "A wrestler playing football? What a joke." There is a huge section of the sporting population that sees professional wrestling and wrestlers as a complete joke, and refuse to believe that it could have ANY relationship to legitimate athletic endeavors. Its quite an unusual version of elitism. Very strange how the Harlem Globetrotters, in their exhibition/noncompetitive days, could be seen as a legitiment scripted exhibition of athletic ability, yet professional wrestling is always a complete joke. I think you see those two compete ideas at play in this very thread. I think sports media outlets such as ESPN and Sports Illustrated have always stayed on the side of the fence that always laughs at professional wrestling, and the smaller sports media has followed suit. As I alluded to earlier, there is a lot of talk on message boards about this story.

I agree with the above. Another point also, if a legitimate outlet gives it press and it turns out to be a hoax, they look foolish. So they aren't going to cover it because they don't want to risk looking stupid....

[MikeVic]

I guess that's part of the reason I want to see Lesnar at least make an NFL roster, or even something like Arena or NFL Europe (if he does indeed want to do that). It would maybe show that not all wrestlers are steroid-taking big guys who can only do "fake" wrestling. These guys are athletes too, but a lot of people choose to ignore that.

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by druez

Here is a jumping reference to him being a muscle bound white guy.....

Sorry if I took it out of context....

I apologize for making a ratio stereotype, but is was said to make an exaggerated statement to match what I believe to be exaggerated numbers from the Lesnar camp. I think very few people have a full appreciation for vertical jump numbers. A true vertical jump is measured from a guy standing still, with no steps or runup to a vertical target. I knew guys who could do all kinds of amazing dunks who were in the 6'4" range and had like a 28" vertical. A 35" vertical is extremely rare. I'm talking like Deion Sanders kind of athlete. I was a 5'11" guy in high school who was a state finalist high jumper and my true vertical was around 33", and yes I could dunk. That's why I find it hard to swallow a muscle bound guy like Lesnar could do a 35" jump. I won't say it's impossible, but I find it very, very unusual. I have seen Lesnar in the ring and was fairly impressed. However, I bet Rob Van Dam would struggle to get a 35" leap and I don't think Lesnar has near the same athletic ability.

I had no intention of making race an issue and would have been highly skeptical if we were talking about Booker T or even Sweet Brown Sugar (who had some real hops in the 80's).