Bob Sura's rebound being stricken from records?

[MikeVic]

Link

I don't know what to say about the intentional miss. I normally don't like when players care about their own individual stats, but he was encouraged by teammates... so I'm more open to him missing on purpose to get a 10th rebound. But, I do find it kind of dumb for the NBA to step in and say that the FG attempt doesn't count, and neither does the rebound.... anyone else agree/disagree?

[KWhit]

I think it definitely should be disallowed.

A record (even if just a triple double) should actually MEAN something.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Take back Strahan's sack.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by BigJohn&TheLions

Take back Strahan's sack.

No kidding, that was just plain cheap.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I disagree with the NBA's ruling, although they did a great job of justifying it.

[TredWel]

At least he didn't pull a Ricky Davis and shoot at his own basket.

[kcchief19]

On the one hand, I think this is silly because with all the problems the NBA has, whether or not Bobby Sura got a triple double isn't even on the radar. How about teaching these thugs to shoot a jumper or get the weed and the guns out of everybody's hands? No, we need to crack down on manipulation of meaningless stats.

On the other hand, it seems silly because they are saying that they are not counting the miss and the rebound because it was intentional. That's like saying they are not going to count a Barry Bonds home run because he "intentionally" tried to hit.

I'm not saying it wasn't cheap -- it was -- but who cares? I understand that Sura did something "negative" while Bonds is trying to do something "positive." But is it any different than when Kobe turned into a chucker to try and keep his 40-point game streak alive last year? Should the NBA have taken away points from him because he was desperately trying to keep a streak alive?

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by TredWel

At least he didn't pull a Ricky Davis and shoot at his own basket.

True... but it still was fairly egregious. However, I don't think you can just erase a stat. Rather, I would like to see his teammates, coaches, and opponents police that.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Originally Posted by TredWel

At least he didn't pull a Ricky Davis and shoot at his own basket.

I think Ricky Davis was doing his best Jim Marshall impression...

[stevew]

Moses Malone got a shitload of rebounds that way(Missing back to himself) and you wondered if some of them were on purpose....

[tucker342]

Ya it was stupid, but who the hell cares? Doesn't the NBA have more important things to worry about?

[Ragone]

if thats the case.. take back ricky davis's one too.. and strahan's sack.. and nykesha's sales gimp layup..

[MrBug708]

Davis's was rightfully taken back, but Sura's shouldn't have. That's like missing a FT on purpose to get the ball back and then giving the ball to the other team.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Ragone

if thats the case.. take back ricky davis's one too..

I don't think Davis had a triple double at any point, he was immediately given a T after shooting at the wrong basket.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

True... but it still was fairly egregious. However, I don't think you can just erase a stat. Rather, I would like to see his teammates, coaches, and opponents police that.

That's the thing about this rebound... his teammates wanted him to do it. If there is no rule against this (the NBA says there is if you shoot at your own basket, ala Ricky Davis), and his team is encouraging him to do this... I don't see how the NBA can just step in a take it away. There are other posts in this thread already that point to other examples, like Kobe's 40-point streak.

[Desnudo]

It should stand, but he should be fined for conduct unbecoming or whatever it is that the NBA fines people for being selfish fools.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

That's the thing about this rebound... his teammates wanted him to do it. If there is no rule against this (the NBA says there is if you shoot at your own basket, ala Ricky Davis), and his team is encouraging him to do this... I don't see how the NBA can just step in a take it away. There are other posts in this thread already that point to other examples, like Kobe's 40-point streak.

I agree that the NBA shouldn't be able to just take it away. However, I think it is disgusting that his teammates and coaches were encouraging him to do this. Furthremore, I think his opponents should be enraged. They should make sure that he doesn't get any easy rebounds or baskets in the future against them. I realize in this case his teammates and coaches didn't police this action, but I think they should have done so.

I also agree that the NBA should levy a heavy fine against him. I just don't think they can go around erasing stats.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by mckerney

I don't think Davis had a triple double at any point, he was immediately given a T after shooting at the wrong basket.

Why would he have been given a tech? There's nothing actually illegal about shooting at the wrong basket...

[Pumpy Tudors]

I don't see where anything he did was so wrong. His actions didn't tarnish the integrity of that particular game. The game was out of reach for New Jersey, the rebound itself was meaningless. So the man is going for a triple-double. If people didn't make such a damn big deal about "triple-doubles" or "stats" to begin with, he wouldn't have done it. It didn't hurt anybody at all, and to pretend that the NBA or basketball in general has some kind of code against it is awfully pretentious. It didn't even decide the outcome of the game. I don't get it.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

On the one hand, I think this is silly because with all the problems the NBA has, whether or not Bobby Sura got a triple double isn't even on the radar. How about teaching these thugs to shoot a jumper?

How can you get kids to respect the game when you allow this to happen? Getting people to respect the game, and those that have come before is an important step in doing exactly what you want the NBA to do.

-Anxiety

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Why would he have been given a tech? There's nothing actually illegal about shooting at the wrong basket...

Actually there is. Direct quote from the above article that was cited:

"Ricky Davis, then with Cleveland, took matters to the extreme last season when he intentionally missed a shot at the wrong basket, with the idea of getting his own rebound and finishing off the first triple-double of his career.

It didn't work. The NBA said it wouldn't have mattered anyway -- there's a rule against trying to score for the opposing team. As it was, Davis was fined by his own team and roundly condemned for his blatant attempt at personal glory."


-Anxiety

[Hammer755]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

That's the thing about this rebound... his teammates wanted him to do it. If there is no rule against this (the NBA says there is if you shoot at your own basket, ala Ricky Davis), and his team is encouraging him to do this... I don't see how the NBA can just step in a take it away. There are other posts in this thread already that point to other examples, like Kobe's 40-point streak.

They can take it away because that's the way the rule is written.

Yahoo Article

But the NBA said his tactics in Monday night's 129-107 win over New Jersey violated the rule that states, "A field goal attempt is a player's attempt to shoot the ball into the basket for a field goal.''

Since Sura wasn't trying to make the shot, the NBA said, he shouldn't get credit for a field goal attempted. Therefore, there was no rebound.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

Actually there is. Direct quote from the above article that was cited:

"Ricky Davis, then with Cleveland, took matters to the extreme last season when he intentionally missed a shot at the wrong basket, with the idea of getting his own rebound and finishing off the first triple-double of his career.

It didn't work. The NBA said it wouldn't have mattered anyway -- there's a rule against trying to score for the opposing team. As it was, Davis was fined by his own team and roundly condemned for his blatant attempt at personal glory."


-Anxiety

D'OH!!!

I'm an idjit...

[stevew]

I think they should chop off Sura's head with Hanzo steel, but only if it sprays blood like a geyser all over the arena. Then the Kids will know that the great game of basketball shall not be defiled under any circumstances.

[Pumpy Tudors]

As Hammer755's post demonstrates, the NBA did a great job at justifying their decision. I vehemently disagree with the league choosing to erase the rebound, but I can't argue with their logic.

[MrBug708]

What happens if he needs a 3 point shot at the buzzer to hit 10 points? He can't purposely step behind the line? Heave a half court shot?

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

What happens if he needs a 3 point shot at the buzzer to hit 10 points? He can't purposely step behind the line? Heave a half court shot?

Mark Cuban compared it to a different situation in this article:

http://www.blogmaverick.com/entry/6573571713523336/

[INDalltheway]

The funniest part about the whole thing was how he almost missed the rebound and it almost went out of bounds... How funny would that have been?

[Celeval]

The argument isn't that he can't try to get stats - it's that he can't intentionally miss the shot in order to rebound. What he SHOULD have done was have a teammate loft a brick off the glass.

[ISiddiqui]

Actually, the rationale that I heard was that an 'official' rebound comes off of a shot which is intended to score. Seeing as Sura's shot was NOT intended to score, him getting the ball back cannot be a rebound.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Celeval

What he SHOULD have done was have a teammate loft a brick off the glass.

Or wait for the oppertunity and actually try and get his 10th rebound.

[SackAttack]

They had been trying all night to get him that 10th without success. Apparently the shots they were taking kept going in.

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Actually, the rationale that I heard was that an 'official' rebound comes off of a shot which is intended to score. Seeing as Sura's shot was NOT intended to score, him getting the ball back cannot be a rebound.

This is a rationale I can buy. A comparison that can be used would be, say, a player toss the ball off the backboard to catch it for a dunk (I have seen McGrady done this with the Magic a few times), I don't think he gets a rebound (well, I guess I should say I hope he doesn't). I guess they can use that as a point of comparison?

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

They had been trying all night to get him that 10th without success. Apparently the shots they were taking kept going in.

Maybe it's just me, but if I'd like to see a player who gets a triple double actually get a triple double, not get 22 points, 11 assists, 9 rebounds plus one a teammate dumped to you.

You're supposed to get a triple double by playing basketball, not play for a triple double in a basketball game.

[mckerney]

Dola:

Though if this were womens basketball and a player had needed one more basket for a triple double, someone would have probably called timeout so the coaches could arranage to trade layups.

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Dola:

Though if this were womens basketball and a player had needed one more basket for a triple double, someone would have probably called timeout so the coaches could arranage to trade layups.

That's an asshat comment, even for you. Of the examples of these type of situation given on the linked article, only Sales' layup was from women sports. This situation and thread has zero to do with the dumbass men-vs-women sports. Focus.

[Ragone]

only bad thing is.. that Sales layup is the first time i can remember any sports team laying down to allow someone to break a record.. set a really bad prescedent..

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Maybe it's just me, but if I'd like to see a player who gets a triple double actually get a triple double, not get 22 points, 11 assists, 9 rebounds plus one a teammate dumped to you.

Look, I'll admit I'm not a big basketball fan any more and I don't want to attack you but this makes no sense.

Every single assist is earned because one teammate dumped the ball to you as opposed to taking a shot. Assist means helping someone score a basket. It means giving up one statistic you could have earned for one a teammate earns and you getting credit for that. Thats kinda what happened here.

I object to the phrase a teammate dumped to you. That my friend is an assist isn't it??? Really, no matter what stat you gained from it.

You or I may see a difference in what happened here and a real assist, and I sort of do and you obviously do but your example makes absolutely no sense. IMHO of course.

[k0ruptr]

Well Wait a second now. Davis WAS ABSOLUTELY NOT "trying" to score for the opposing team. he was trying to miss to get his own rebound. if they said he was, then how can they say sura wasn't trying to score. thats BS if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Anxiety

It didn't work. The NBA said it wouldn't have mattered anyway -- there's a rule against trying to score for the opposing team. As it was, Davis was fined by his own team and roundly condemned for his blatant attempt at personal glory."

[Ragone]

So Davis was clearly in the wrong.. and by doing this.. the nba clearly has employed miss cleo to infact learn.. Bobby sura was shooting NOT TO SCORE..

[Ksyrup]

I have no problem with what the NBA did with Sura or Ricky Davis, but I've always thought that the NBA was in the wrong for not stepping in on the David Robinson 70+ point game at the end of the 1994 season, when it was clear that everyone was trying to prevent Shaq from winning the scoring title, and they kept feeding Robinson the ball and he scored 28 4th quarter points in a meaningless game - stopping the clock whenever they could to give him more chances to score.

I know it is more difficult to police that kind of situation, but to me, that was more egregious than what Sura did, since it affected the leage's season records. Is one shot not to score any worse than an extra 15 shots to score, when the game is meaningless, the season is over, and you're calling timeouts to ensure all of those extra shots?

That's always bothered me, and I've thought less of Robinson since that day. And the rest of the league, since it was a coordinated effort not to allow the big, bad rookie to win the scoring title.

[Samdari]

Did any of you see a replay? I thought the NBA's decision was a bit sketchy until I saw it. Everyone keeps referring to this play as Bobby Sura "shooting" at the (correct) basket and missing on purpose to get another rebound. By no definition did he shoot the ball. He lightly tossed it towards the bottom of the rim and caught it as it bounced down. The NBA did the right thing in refusing to ackowledge it as a shot attempt. At no time was any part of the ball above the rim - the ball never had a chance to go in.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Samdari

the ball never had a chance to go in.

If that's the standard, then the NBA needs to disallow about 50% of the shots Jon Koncak took in his career.

[Ragone]

Or shaq's free throws

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

If that's the standard, then the NBA needs to disallow about 50% of the shots Jon Koncak took in his career.

I would bet nearly 99% of them had some part of the ball above the rim, and that Koncak was earnestly (if poorly) trying to make them.

[Ksyrup]

But they had no chance of going in.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

But they had no chance of going in.

Perhaps I need to redefine. When Sura flung the ball at the bottom of the rim, he knew it had no chance. Koncak looked at times like he thought some of them actually had a chance.

[ISiddiqui]

A comparison that can be used would be, say, a player toss the ball off the backboard to catch it for a dunk (I have seen McGrady done this with the Magic a few times), I don't think he gets a rebound (well, I guess I should say I hope he doesn't). I guess they can use that as a point of comparison?

Exactly right! It isn't that Sura was trying to get a record, it is that in doing so, he did not intend to score on his 'shot' and thus didn't fulfill the criteria for a rebound.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

How about teaching these thugs to shoot a jumper or get the weed and the guns out of everybody's hands? No, we need to crack down on manipulation of meaningless stats?

Wow. That's an unbelievable generalization about hundreds of people with which you have probably never even spent 5 minutes...

[rkmsuf]

It should be stricken for the mere fact that it was the weakest attempt at a fake shot ever. Yeah let me throw the ball underhand, off the bottom of the rim.

I really didn't even get what the big deal was anyway. All the hugging and jubulation was ridiculous.