Crybaby Award

Honolulu_Blue · 05-04-2004, 05:32 PM

These coaches are assholes, even though it is a bit funny...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...rybaby_award_1

PLEASANTVILLE, N.J. - The coaches of a middle school basketball team who humiliated one of their players by giving him a "crybaby award" will likely face disciplinary action from district officials.

The 13-year-old boy's coach called him just before last month's team banquet and told him to make sure he attended because he was getting a special trophy, the boy's father said.

At the event, the boy watched as all of his Pleasantville Middle School teammates received trophies or certificates.

He was then called up to receive his award, and a coach told the crowd that the boy was being honored because "he begged to get in the game, and all he did was whine."

The trophy had a silver figure of a baby atop a pedestal engraved with the boy's name, which was spelled incorrectly. Family members said the teen — an honor roll student — was so embarrassed that he stayed home from school on the following Monday.

Edwin Coyle, superintendent of the Atlantic County district, said he would recommend that the unidentified coaches receive some type of punishment. He planned to address the matter at Tuesday night's Board of Education meeting.

"I was very upset and dismayed that our coaches would take an opportunity to belittle or lessen the self-esteem of our athletes," Coyle said.

------------------------

Mayhap we here at FOFC should have one of these awards...

dawgfan · 05-04-2004, 05:53 PM

Those coaches are assholes indeed.

albionmoonlight · 05-04-2004, 05:55 PM

It's not like middle school coaching pays a lot. Why would you take the job if you hate kids?

Nyarlahotep · 05-04-2004, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

It's not like middle school coaching pays a lot. Why would you take the job if you hate kids?

To be in a perfect environment to act on that hatred?

Honolulu_Blue · 05-04-2004, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyarlahotep

To be in a perfect environment to act on that hatred?

Wow. How very serial killer that would be...

Surtt · 05-04-2004, 06:25 PM

They should never be allowed near children again.

This kid is going to carry this with him the rest of his life.

JeeberD · 05-04-2004, 06:27 PM

Shorty's gonna be scarred for life...

Schmidty · 05-04-2004, 06:40 PM

I'm pissed at the father of the kid for not beating the shit out of the coaches. I'm not normally a violent person, but I would have put a fucking hurt on those bitches.

sabotai · 05-04-2004, 06:48 PM

Pleasentville is near Stockton. It's not very pleasent...I'm not surprised that the best people they could find to coach basketball turned out to be complete assholes.

Franklinnoble · 05-04-2004, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I'm pissed at the father of the kid for not beating the shit out of the coaches. I'm not normally a violent person, but I would have put a fucking hurt on those bitches.

Agreed. I'd kill any SOB that did something like that to my kid...

Buccaneer · 05-04-2004, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Agreed. I'd kill any SOB that did something like that to my kid...

You would also be teaching your kid to whine as well? As much as I find the behavior of the coach unacceptable in this certain siutation, it has and will happen more (or have we become too societal sensitive?). Any one been in band and become humiliated by the director in front of everyone for screwing up (like I have)? Any one played sports and get chewed out by the coach in front of the whole team for any one of many reasons? Any one had to be singled out in class by standing in a corner or some other punishment due to bad behavior? Any one work at a job while a teen and get fired or reprimanded in front of everyone? It's part of growing up and maturing, teaching you how to deal with such future situations and to change behavior by learning from them.

The Daily Contrarian

Suicane75 · 05-04-2004, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

You would also be teaching your kid to whine as well? As much as I find the behavior of the coach unacceptable in this certain siutation, it has and will happen more (or have we become too societal sensitive?). Any one been in band and become humiliated by the director in front of everyone for screwing up (like I have)? Any one played sports and get chewed out by the coach in front of the whole team for any one of many reasons? Any one had to be singled out in class by standing in a corner or some other punishment due to bad behavior? Any one work at a job while a teen and get fired or reprimanded in front of everyone? It's part of growing up and maturing, teaching you how to deal with such future situations and to change behavior by learning from them.

The Daily Contrarian

All true, of course I've also done the wrong thing to the wrong guy at the wrong time and got my ass handed to me. This coach went out of his way to emasculate a 13 year old boy.

Buccaneer · 05-04-2004, 07:28 PM

emasculate

Have to look that one up.

Eaglesfan27 · 05-04-2004, 07:31 PM

I played on the football team against Pleasantville and had a lot of friends in the area. It is not a very pleasant area as Sabotai mentioned. Interestingly, I went to high school with the superintendent's son. Actually, maybe that is not so interesting.

Pumpy Tudors · 05-04-2004, 07:34 PM

Buccaneer, while I agree that people can get chewed out on teams or that sort of thing, couldn't the coaches have done this to the kid at practice? It's one thing to call out a player in front of the team. It's another thing to call him out in front of (presumably) friends, family, and authority figures at the school. For anyone who thinks that team problems should be dealt with behind closed doors, this is a prime example of it.

Personally, I really don't care what these particular coaches did to this particular kid, but I just don't understand why it had to be done like that, particularly when there are far less inflammatory options.

Franklinnoble · 05-04-2004, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

You would also be teaching your kid to whine as well? As much as I find the behavior of the coach unacceptable in this certain siutation, it has and will happen more (or have we become too societal sensitive?). Any one been in band and become humiliated by the director in front of everyone for screwing up (like I have)? Any one played sports and get chewed out by the coach in front of the whole team for any one of many reasons? Any one had to be singled out in class by standing in a corner or some other punishment due to bad behavior? Any one work at a job while a teen and get fired or reprimanded in front of everyone? It's part of growing up and maturing, teaching you how to deal with such future situations and to change behavior by learning from them.

The Daily Contrarian

First of all, no, I would not expect my kid to whine.

Secondly, I don't care how you justify it... the situations you've stated are a far cry from a dickhead coach going out of his way to:

1. Make a special trophy.
2. Call the kid and make sure he's going to show up.
3. Publicly humiliate him at an end-of-season banquet which, in my experience, is typically geared towards sharing good times and reflecting on all the fun of the past season.

There's no excuse. That's a pre-meditated act of humiliation, not a spur-of-the-moment ass-chewing for stupid behavior, and the coach deserves to have his ass kicked. Repeatedly.

Franklinnoble · 05-04-2004, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

emasculate

Have to look that one up.

It's how a horse becomes a gelding. Just FYI.

Ksyrup · 05-04-2004, 07:40 PM

There's teaching a life lesson, and there's purposefully humiliating a kid. This one isn't even close.

Tigercat · 05-04-2004, 07:40 PM

Its one thing to call out poor play, especially when one can do better, or to call out a bad attitude when it counts.(Like a game, performance, or practice). This is done to encourage better play/attitude.

Its another thing to call a kid out in public with the specific purpose to humiliate. No one should even try to defend these coaches.

BigJohn&TheLions · 05-04-2004, 07:42 PM

So I guess he was disgruntled about his playing time. He likely was just a roster filler who should be happy to be warming the bench.

I need to give one of these awards to my #4 tackle...

JonInMiddleGA · 05-04-2004, 07:47 PM

I'm more along the lines of Bucc's thoughts than most everyone else who's posted so far.

To say much more than, I'd have to know just how much whining was done (and what else might be behind this whole situation, sure as hell seems like there's probably more to this story than we've heard).

sabotai · 05-04-2004, 07:52 PM

If the kid was wnining so much to warrent treatment like this, he should have been kicked off the team, not humiliated by the coaches the way he was.

dawgfan · 05-04-2004, 08:25 PM

Yeah, I don't care what the kid did - nothing would justify his coaches putting together a carefully planned public humiliation like this.

Buccaneer · 05-04-2004, 08:55 PM

I agree with all of the latest sentiments. Just bringing in another thought.

sterlingice · 05-04-2004, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

At the event, the boy watched as all of his Pleasantville Middle School teammates received trophies or certificates.

He was then called up to receive his award, and a coach told the crowd that the boy was being honored because "he begged to get in the game, and all he did was whine."

The trophy had a silver figure of a baby atop a pedestal engraved with the boy's name, which was spelled incorrectly. Family members said the teen — an honor roll student — was so embarrassed that he stayed home from school on the following Monday.

Am I the only sadistic person that found this a little funny?

But on a more serious note, I'm not so quick to dismiss the coach because of this: "was so embarrassed that he stayed home from school on the following Monday". Any of you get humiliated at school? I think we all did, repeatedly, that's life. But did you ever go beg your parents to not let you to go to school the next day and seriously mean it in the sense that "I'm so embarassed I can't go to school" rather than "You know, this sounds like a good excuse to stay home from school"? So, in other words, he went and whined to his parents. Still no excuse for what the coach did, but basically, yeah, the kid sounds like a whiny little brat.

SI

MrBug708 · 05-04-2004, 10:41 PM

I was always the "whiny kid" but I generally was the skinniest kid who was sick a lot. I always played the hardest and love sports for what it was, but I usually sat on the bench anyways. It was funny to hear coaches preach "everyone plays' when they didn't mean it. Ah well, last year I played Little League, I hit over .500 and lead the league in singles, doubles, triples, SB's, and walks. They wanted me to play the next year and I went to a different league with a Big F-You.

Kids are mean, it's the way it goes. If that was my kid, I would have put a Donkey on a trophy and gave it to the coach. The Jackass Award and I would have done it on a 3 foot mantle, welded to the hood of his car.

Suicane75 · 05-04-2004, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Ah well, last year I played Little League, I hit over .500 and lead the league in singles, doubles, triples, SB's, and walks.

Yeah, but you're much older than the rest of the kids arn't you?

Craptacular · 05-04-2004, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Secondly, I don't care how you justify it... the situations you've stated are a far cry from a dickhead coach going out of his way to:

1. Make a special trophy.
2. Call the kid and make sure he's going to show up.
3. Publicly humiliate him at an end-of-season banquet which, in my experience, is typically geared towards sharing good times and reflecting on all the fun of the past season.

There's no excuse. That's a pre-meditated act of humiliation, not a spur-of-the-moment ass-chewing for stupid behavior, and the coach deserves to have his ass kicked. Repeatedly.

Could not have said it better myself.

SFL Cat · 05-05-2004, 12:04 AM

No excuse for doing that to a 13 year old. As others have said, if he was a constant whiner and detriment to the team, give him the boot. But to humiliate someone the way they did in public...that's just not right.

I remember the first year I played organized football in middle school. My coach (who looked a lot like a thin Vince Lombardi) rode me mercilessly at practice my first year. I thought the guy hated me. Several times, I thought about quitting, but I guess I was too stubborn.

At the end-of-the-season award ceremony (in front of the whole school), coach told the school audience that this had been my first year and that things had been tough for me at first. He told everyone he had been hard on me, maybe too hard, but he had watched me improve a lot as a player. He then said I showed great potential and hoped I would continue to play. He then called me over and handed me the Most Improved Player Certificate.

Best...coach....ever. I'd do anything for him.

miami_fan · 05-05-2004, 12:08 AM

As I read this article, I am picturing a coach who has a problem with "today's athlete" and decided he was going to take his frustrations out on the kid. Just like many coaches pull a kid from a game for running out a ground ball for example. I am not condoning or justifying what he did. Just giving my first imprressions.

Bucc: it may have been more funny if Dennis Erickson would have presented such an award to Terell Owens prior to him leaving San Fran

Samdari · 05-05-2004, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Any one been in band and become humiliated by the director in front of everyone for screwing up (like I have)? Any one played sports and get chewed out by the coach in front of the whole team for any one of many reasons?

Those are totally different from what happened here. In front of the team is one thing (calling band practice analogous to team sports practice). Did the band leader stop a concert to yell at you in front of spectators? Or hold an assembly specifically to embarass you in front the general public? Or get on the PA system at school the next day to tell everyone what a screwup you were?

You cannot even compare a coach yelling at people for screwing up in practice with what these losers did.

corbes · 05-05-2004, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

No excuse for doing that to a 13 year old. As others have said, if he was a constant whiner and detriment to the team, give him the boot. But to humiliate someone the way they did in public...that's just not right.

I remember the first year I played organized football in middle school. My coach (who looked a lot like a thin Vince Lombardi) rode me mercilessly at practice my first year. I thought the guy hated me. Several times, I thought about quitting, but I guess I was too stubborn.

At the end-of-the-season award ceremony (in front of the whole school), coach told the school audience that this had been my first year and that things had been tough for me at first. He told everyone he had been hard on me, maybe too hard, but he had watched me improve a lot as a player. He then said I showed great potential and hoped I would continue to play. He then called me over and handed me the Most Improved Player Certificate.

Best...coach....ever. I'd do anything for him.

Good story, SFL

That's EXACTLY the function a banquet should serve. It's a celebration, not a trial.

Buccaneer · 05-05-2004, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samdari

Those are totally different from what happened here. In front of the team is one thing (calling band practice analogous to team sports practice). Did the band leader stop a concert to yell at you in front of spectators? Or hold an assembly specifically to embarass you in front the general public? Or get on the PA system at school the next day to tell everyone what a screwup you were?

You cannot even compare a coach yelling at people for screwing up in practice with what these losers did.

Yes. No. No.

miami_fan · 05-28-2004, 03:04 PM

Middle school holds assembly in boy's honor

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/news/story?id=1811551

Associated Press
PLEASANTVILLE, N.J. -- A middle school honor student who was humiliated when his basketball coach gave him a "Crybaby Award" last month was feted at a school assembly Friday with applause from his peers and an apology from the coach.

Ousted Pleasantville Middle School coach James Guillen presented Terrence Philo Jr. with a certificate, a trophy and the first-ever Terrence Philo Jr. Award.

"I would like to extend a special apology to the Terrence Philo family," Guillen told the boy in front of about 250 of his cheering classmates. He blamed his error last month on "my lack of experience as a coach and as a teacher."

St. Joseph's basketball coach Phil Martelli also was on hand to see the boy honored.

Philo, an eighth-grade honor student, was a guard on the team, which went 12-3 and won its division championship.

Guillen, a teacher in his first year as coach, had told him to be sure to attend the team's April 24 banquet to accept an award. But when he showed up, Guillen gave him a Crybaby Award trophy for always pleading to get into games.

The boy's family was irate, and Guillen was removed as coach, suspended from his teaching job for five days and lost a scheduled pay raise.

The boy's determination to participate was the impetus behind the new award, which will go each year to a student who demonstrates dedication and team spirit. Philo said he was pleased.

"How they did it this way, it's better," he said.

Martelli, who guided the Hawks to a surprising run at the national championship this past season, said the assembly would help everyone involved learn from what happened.

"It's an unfortunate situation that I think has ended in a positive vein," he said.

sterlingice · 05-29-2004, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miami_fan

PLEASANTVILLE, N.J. -- A middle school honor student who was humiliated when his basketball coach gave him a "Crybaby Award" last month was feted at a school assembly Friday with applause from his peers and an apology from the coach.

Ousted Pleasantville Middle School coach James Guillen presented Terrence Philo Jr. with a certificate, a trophy and the first-ever Terrence Philo Jr. Award.

Blech. So the moral of this story is that if you whine and cry and your coach is a dumbass, you can get an award and Martelli will come to your awards ceremony. Speaking of whining...

SI

sabotai · 05-29-2004, 04:54 PM

They just go from one extreme to the other...like SI said, lessoned learned. Whine enough and you get what you want (and more).

05-04-2004, 06:27 PM	#7
JeeberD General Manager Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Town of Flower Mound	Shorty's gonna be scarred for life... __________________ UTEP Miners!!! I solemnly swear to never cheer for TO

05-04-2004, 06:40 PM	#8
Schmidty Coordinator Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Early, TX	I'm pissed at the father of the kid for not beating the shit out of the coaches. I'm not normally a violent person, but I would have put a fucking hurt on those bitches. __________________ Just beat the devil out of it!!! - Bob Ross Last edited by Schmidty : 05-04-2004 at 06:48 PM.

05-04-2004, 07:31 PM	#14
Eaglesfan27 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey	I played on the football team against Pleasantville and had a lot of friends in the area. It is not a very pleasant area as Sabotai mentioned. Interestingly, I went to high school with the superintendent's son. Actually, maybe that is not so interesting. __________________ Retired GM of the eNFL 2007 Super Bowl Champion Philadelphia Eagles (19-0 record.) GM of the WOOF 2006 Doggie Bowl Champion Atlantic City Gamblers. GM of the IHOF 2019 and 2022 IHOF Bowl Champion Asheville Axemen.

05-04-2004, 07:34 PM	#15
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	Buccaneer, while I agree that people can get chewed out on teams or that sort of thing, couldn't the coaches have done this to the kid at practice? It's one thing to call out a player in front of the team. It's another thing to call him out in front of (presumably) friends, family, and authority figures at the school. For anyone who thinks that team problems should be dealt with behind closed doors, this is a prime example of it. Personally, I really don't care what these particular coaches did to this particular kid, but I just don't understand why it had to be done like that, particularly when there are far less inflammatory options. __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

05-04-2004, 07:40 PM	#18
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	There's teaching a life lesson, and there's purposefully humiliating a kid. This one isn't even close. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

05-04-2004, 05:53 PM	#2
dawgfan Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Seattle	Those coaches are assholes indeed.

05-04-2004, 05:55 PM	#3
albionmoonlight Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: North Carolina	It's not like middle school coaching pays a lot. Why would you take the job if you hate kids?

05-04-2004, 06:25 PM	#6
Surtt College Benchwarmer Join Date: Nov 2003	They should never be allowed near children again. This kid is going to carry this with him the rest of his life.

05-04-2004, 06:48 PM	#9
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	Pleasentville is near Stockton. It's not very pleasent...I'm not surprised that the best people they could find to coach basketball turned out to be complete assholes.

05-04-2004, 07:28 PM	#13
Buccaneer Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	emasculate Have to look that one up.

05-04-2004, 07:40 PM	#19
Tigercat College Starter Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Federal Way, WA	Its one thing to call out poor play, especially when one can do better, or to call out a bad attitude when it counts.(Like a game, performance, or practice). This is done to encourage better play/attitude. Its another thing to call a kid out in public with the specific purpose to humiliate. No one should even try to defend these coaches.

05-04-2004, 07:42 PM	#20
BigJohn&TheLions College Benchwarmer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New York	So I guess he was disgruntled about his playing time. He likely was just a roster filler who should be happy to be warming the bench. I need to give one of these awards to my #4 tackle... __________________ In the immortal words of a great alcoholic, "Can't we all just get along?"

05-04-2004, 07:47 PM	#21
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	I'm more along the lines of Bucc's thoughts than most everyone else who's posted so far. To say much more than, I'd have to know just how much whining was done (and what else might be behind this whole situation, sure as hell seems like there's probably more to this story than we've heard). Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 05-04-2004 at 07:47 PM.

05-04-2004, 07:52 PM	#22
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	If the kid was wnining so much to warrent treatment like this, he should have been kicked off the team, not humiliated by the coaches the way he was.

05-04-2004, 08:25 PM	#23
dawgfan Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Seattle	Yeah, I don't care what the kid did - nothing would justify his coaches putting together a carefully planned public humiliation like this.

05-04-2004, 08:55 PM	#24
Buccaneer Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	I agree with all of the latest sentiments. Just bringing in another thought.

05-04-2004, 10:41 PM	#26
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	I was always the "whiny kid" but I generally was the skinniest kid who was sick a lot. I always played the hardest and love sports for what it was, but I usually sat on the bench anyways. It was funny to hear coaches preach "everyone plays' when they didn't mean it. Ah well, last year I played Little League, I hit over .500 and lead the league in singles, doubles, triples, SB's, and walks. They wanted me to play the next year and I went to a different league with a Big F-You. Kids are mean, it's the way it goes. If that was my kid, I would have put a Donkey on a trophy and gave it to the coach. The Jackass Award and I would have done it on a 3 foot mantle, welded to the hood of his car.

05-05-2004, 12:04 AM	#29
SFL Cat College Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: South Florida	No excuse for doing that to a 13 year old. As others have said, if he was a constant whiner and detriment to the team, give him the boot. But to humiliate someone the way they did in public...that's just not right. I remember the first year I played organized football in middle school. My coach (who looked a lot like a thin Vince Lombardi) rode me mercilessly at practice my first year. I thought the guy hated me. Several times, I thought about quitting, but I guess I was too stubborn. At the end-of-the-season award ceremony (in front of the whole school), coach told the school audience that this had been my first year and that things had been tough for me at first. He told everyone he had been hard on me, maybe too hard, but he had watched me improve a lot as a player. He then said I showed great potential and hoped I would continue to play. He then called me over and handed me the Most Improved Player Certificate. Best...coach....ever. I'd do anything for him. Last edited by SFL Cat : 05-05-2004 at 12:07 AM.

05-05-2004, 12:08 AM	#30
miami_fan Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Land O Lakes FL	As I read this article, I am picturing a coach who has a problem with "today's athlete" and decided he was going to take his frustrations out on the kid. Just like many coaches pull a kid from a game for running out a ground ball for example. I am not condoning or justifying what he did. Just giving my first imprressions. Bucc: it may have been more funny if Dennis Erickson would have presented such an award to Terell Owens prior to him leaving San Fran

05-28-2004, 03:04 PM	#34
miami_fan Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Land O Lakes FL	A happy ending? Middle school holds assembly in boy's honor http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/news/story?id=1811551 Associated Press PLEASANTVILLE, N.J. -- A middle school honor student who was humiliated when his basketball coach gave him a "Crybaby Award" last month was feted at a school assembly Friday with applause from his peers and an apology from the coach. Ousted Pleasantville Middle School coach James Guillen presented Terrence Philo Jr. with a certificate, a trophy and the first-ever Terrence Philo Jr. Award. "I would like to extend a special apology to the Terrence Philo family," Guillen told the boy in front of about 250 of his cheering classmates. He blamed his error last month on "my lack of experience as a coach and as a teacher." St. Joseph's basketball coach Phil Martelli also was on hand to see the boy honored. Philo, an eighth-grade honor student, was a guard on the team, which went 12-3 and won its division championship. Guillen, a teacher in his first year as coach, had told him to be sure to attend the team's April 24 banquet to accept an award. But when he showed up, Guillen gave him a Crybaby Award trophy for always pleading to get into games. The boy's family was irate, and Guillen was removed as coach, suspended from his teaching job for five days and lost a scheduled pay raise. The boy's determination to participate was the impetus behind the new award, which will go each year to a student who demonstrates dedication and team spirit. Philo said he was pleased. "How they did it this way, it's better," he said. Martelli, who guided the Hawks to a surprising run at the national championship this past season, said the assembly would help everyone involved learn from what happened. "It's an unfortunate situation that I think has ended in a positive vein," he said.

05-29-2004, 04:54 PM	#36
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	They just go from one extreme to the other...like SI said, lessoned learned. Whine enough and you get what you want (and more).

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