OT - Restoring America's Honor

[NoMyths]

Link: NYT: Restoring Our Honor

I have been silent around these parts on the current P.O.W. atrocity in Iraq, partly out of a disgust and dismay so overwhelming that it exhausts me. This New York Times column by Thomas Friedman is an eloquent statement about the situation we now find ourselves in, and I'd encourage everyone to read it. There's a little something in it for everyone.

Full Text:
NYT: Restoring Our Honor
by Thomas L. Friedman

We are in danger of losing something much more important than just the war in Iraq. We are in danger of losing America as an instrument of moral authority and inspiration in the world. I have never known a time in my life when America and its president were more hated around the world than today. I was just in Japan, and even young Japanese dislike us. It's no wonder that so many Americans are obsessed with the finale of the sitcom "Friends" right now. They're the only friends we have, and even they're leaving.

This administration needs to undertake a total overhaul of its Iraq policy; otherwise, it is courting a total disaster for us all.

That overhaul needs to begin with President Bush firing Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld — today, not tomorrow or next month, today. What happened in Abu Ghraib prison was, at best, a fundamental breakdown in the chain of command under Mr. Rumsfeld's authority, or, at worst, part of a deliberate policy somewhere in the military-intelligence command of sexually humiliating prisoners to soften them up for interrogation, a policy that ran amok.

Either way, the secretary of defense is ultimately responsible, and if we are going to rebuild our credibility as instruments of humanitarian values, the rule of law and democratization, in Iraq or elsewhere, Mr. Bush must hold his own defense secretary accountable. Words matter, but deeds matter more. If the Pentagon leadership ran any U.S. company with the kind of abysmal planning in this war, it would have been fired by shareholders months ago.

I know that tough interrogations are vital in a war against a merciless enemy, but outright torture, or this sexual-humiliation-for-entertainment, is abhorrent. I also know the sort of abuse that went on in Abu Ghraib prison goes on in prisons all over the Arab world every day, as it did under Saddam — without the Arab League or Al Jazeera ever saying a word about it. I know they are shameful hypocrites, but I want my country to behave better — not only because it is America, but also because the war on terrorism is a war of ideas, and to have any chance of winning we must maintain the credibility of our ideas.

We were hit on 9/11 by people who believed hateful ideas — ideas too often endorsed by some of their own spiritual leaders and educators back home. We cannot win a war of ideas against such people by ourselves. Only Arabs and Muslims can. What we could do — and this was the only legitimate rationale for this war — was try to help Iraqis create a progressive context in the heart of the Arab-Muslim world where that war of ideas could be fought out.

But it is hard to partner with someone when you become so radioactive no one wants to stand next to you. We have to restore some sense of partnership with the world if we are going to successfully partner with Iraqis.

Mr. Bush needs to invite to Camp David the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council, the heads of both NATO and the U.N., and the leaders of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Syria. There, he needs to eat crow, apologize for his mistakes and make clear that he is turning a new page. Second, he needs to explain that we are losing in Iraq, and if we continue to lose the U.S. public will eventually demand that we quit Iraq, and it will then become Afghanistan-on-steroids, which will threaten everyone. Third, he needs to say he will be guided by the U.N. in forming the new caretaker government in Baghdad. And fourth, he needs to explain that he is ready to listen to everyone's ideas about how to expand our force in Iraq, and have it work under a new U.N. mandate, so it will have the legitimacy it needs to crush any uprisings against the interim Iraqi government and oversee elections — and then leave when appropriate. And he needs to urge them all to join in.

Let's not lose sight of something — as bad as things look in Iraq, it is not yet lost, for one big reason: America's aspirations for Iraq and those of the Iraqi silent majority, particularly Shiites and Kurds, are still aligned. We both want Iraqi self-rule and then free elections. That overlap of interests, however clouded, can still salvage something decent from this war — if the Bush team can finally screw up the courage to admit its failures and dramatically change course.

Yes, the hour is late, but as long as there's a glimmer of hope that this Bush team will do the right thing, we must insist on it, because America's role in the world is too precious — to America and to the rest of the world — to be squandered like this.

[Desnudo]

Where to start? This kind of thing, while unfortunate, has happened in all wars in the past and yes, commited,*gasp!*, by Americans. The attrocities commited in Vietnam went far beyond the scope of what happened in Iraq. The same for looting in WWII. The difference is in the publicity around them. These things happen in war. We should be congratulated that the incident rate was incredibly low considering the amount of prisonors and guards.

[JonInMiddleGA]

re: the op/ed piece -- What an utter & complete pile of steaming horseshit. Just a lot of hot air from someone who clearly has an agenda that the unfortunate incident with a handful of prisoners happens to be useful to further.

Then again, I'd expect nothing less from the NYT.

re:

partly out of a disgust and dismay so overwhelming that it exhausts me.

If you're so exhausted, let me suggest that you stay the fuck out of the way of the people who are still willing to do what is necessary to get the job done.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

re: If you're so exhausted, let me suggest that you stay the fuck out of the way of the people who are still willing to do what is necessary to get the job done.

If it is your sense, conversely, that when I'm not exhausted I'm standing in the way of the torture and sexual humiliation of others, then I suppose I'll have to save a little bit of energy.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

If it is your sense, conversely, that when I'm not exhausted I'm standing in the way of the torture and sexual humiliation of others, then I suppose I'll have to save a little bit of energy.

Yeah, that guy is doing a real hell of a job being an armchair critic. Lives have been saved. Thank god he's on their side.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Yeah, that guy is doing a real hell of a job being an armchair critic. Lives have been saved. Thank god he's on their side.

I'm on America's side. I wish you fuckers would quit ruining the place, and what it stands for.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

I'm on America's side. I wish you fuckers would quit ruining the place, and what it stands for.

Right. I'll be leaving the thread about restoring civility after that personal attack. Have a nice day.

[Easy Mac]

Friedman's generally considered one of the more conservative writers for the NY Times op-ed. Of course, I'm sure if American prisoners were sexually abused by Iraqi's, JiMGa would be right there to shove the broom further up their ass.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Friedman's generally considered one of the more conservative writers for the NY Times op-ed.

I believe you may have just defined the phrase "damning with faint praise"

Of course, I'm sure if American prisoners were sexually abused by Iraqi's, JiMGa would be right there to shove the broom further up their ass.

Sorry, that's been covered in another thread (search for "double standard" & I believe that ought to turn it up if you missed it the first time around)

[albionmoonlight]

So, Jon, are you for the torture of prisioners as a means of extracting information? I don't mean to bait with this question, but that's how I read your comment about staying out of the way of people willing to do what is necessary . . . .

[BishopMVP]

As to his larger point of the US being hated in the world right now, he's right. The Cold War is over, and until these people are convinced that the alternative is worse than America it'll stay that way. Talking to them (Europeans in particular) and pointing out just how bad Islamic fundamentalism is doesn't seem to work, so I'm content to do what we have to do with the countries that realize what must be done.

As to Abu Ghraib specifically, you and every other editorialist that has devoted a column to this needs to retain some perspective. First, anyone who thinks firing Rumsfeld in the middle of the war will either help us win or significantly change anything in the military is a fool. As to the abuses themselves, they were disgusting, they were disgraceful, everyone who committed or condoned them should be severely punished, especially because they increased the risk posed to every soldier there, but to imply that we lost our military lost its honor over that? A few soldiers committed the acts and the Army began investigating and punishing them 3 months ago, 3 months before this ever became public. The larger investigation has ruled there were 25 deaths of Iraqi prisoners, with 2 being considered murders since the beginning of the conflict. That's two more than should have happened, but the fact that countries who routinely torture and kill people as state policy have the gall to criticize us over our treatment of prisoners disgusts me.

To me, this incident shows why our military is so honorable. A few soldiers committed heinous acts, and they were investigated and prosecuted by the Army before any public outcry happened. Personally, I think there have been times fairly recently we've lost honor - our decisions to pull out of Vietnam, Lebanon and Mogadishu and to a lesser extent when the people of Rwanda, Iraq, currently the Sudan, etc, died while we had the power to stop it and did nothing.

[EagleFan]

Kind of funny how the people who cry double standards are the ones who say nothing when reports of attrocities of other countries come out. Mistreated American prisoners get very little attention from them but suddenly the roles are reversed and they get out their soap box.

Both are wrong. It's war and it happens (a realistic viewpoint). Don't go trying to make a political agenda out of a small group of people doing something wrong.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Kind of funny how the people who cry double standards are the ones who say nothing when reports of attrocities of other countries come out. Mistreated American prisoners get very little attention from them but suddenly the roles are reversed and they get out their soap box.

Both are wrong. It's war and it happens (a realistic viewpoint). Don't go trying to make a political agenda out of a small group of people doing something wrong.

Yep.

The only thing I agree with is that Rumsfield must go.

[albionmoonlight]

Just FYI: I still beleive that the vast, vast majority of Americans and the vast, vast majority of our military know that this is wrong and are ashamed of these actions of a few.

I also beleive that these actions are wrong whether we do them or whether some non-Americans do them.

I also beleive that those responsible for the torture will be subjected to a fair trial/process, allowed to present a defense, and will be accorded the punishment that they deserve.

I hope that processes will be put in place to try to prevent such things from happening again.

[Buccaneer]

By the way NM, how come you didn't get disgusted to the point of exhaustion after seeing photos of missionaries getting tortured and mutilated in China and some ME countries? Or seeing thousands of Kurds piled up after numerous genocide attacks? Or seeing thousands of children being held in bondage in Sub-Sahara Africa? Or seeing a trash can full of dead fetuses? Or many other human atrocities? Aren't each of these just as worthy to get raged about just as the ones showing prison abuse? So why single out this one for the comment about being disgusted to the point of exhaustion?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Kind of funny how the people who cry double standards are the ones who say nothing when reports of attrocities of other countries come out. Mistreated American prisoners get very little attention from them but suddenly the roles are reversed and they get out their soap box.

Dunno about this. People were plenty outraged at how the remains of those four contractors were treated following the ambush. Those were just the remains. And do you remember the whole Jessica Lynch affair? People were pretty upset at the initial reports. I don't think there is a double standard at all.

What was done to those prisoners is inexcusable, barbaric, cruel, and dishonorable. Unfortunately, I was not surprised when it came to light. These things happen in war.

Whenever I hear about this kind of thing, I always think about that scene in "Platoon" where Bunny finds that old woman and her one-legged son in that hut. He makes fun of them and starts tormenting them, shooting his M-16 at the one-legged guy's feet to make him hop. Bunny laughs and laughs, getting a real kick out of it, before he kills him. That scene stuck with me. I hated Bunny for it. It was a depiction of a horror of war. Much like these photos.

[sabotai]

I reason that comes to mind is that we keep saying that we are better than they are, that we hold human rights far higher than places like China, Iraq, etc. and here we have our soldiers, the same people who we have put up on a pedastal and called "heros", doing stupid shit like this...

But I for one agree with the notion that if after a year of war, the worst thing we have done was that a few soldiers acted like total jackasses (and have been dealt with before we heard about it), considering past an present "wartime atrosities", that's actually pretty damn good. Doesn't excuse what these few soldiers have done, but so far statistically, our boys and girls over there have behaved themselves pretty well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

...but that's how I read your comment about staying out of the way of people willing to do what is necessary . . . .

Now that misconception is something I feel like I have to clear up, because that's not what I was referring to at all.

That "willing to do" comment was in reference to Bush, Rumsfeld, the U.S., etc. & in terms of the bigger picture, and had nothing to do with the allegations of mistreatment of prisoners.

I see very clearly how easy it was to apply the reference to something other than what I meant, I pretty much shifted gears in midstream (which was something that I alluded to the editorialist doing earlier in the thread -- I guess that's why I made the jump & figured people would see where I was landing.) I should have added another phrase or something that would have avoided creating confusion.

In other words, a'light ... my bad.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Now that misconception is something I feel like I have to clear up, because that's not what I was referring to at all.

That "willing to do" comment was in reference to Bush, Rumsfeld, the U.S., etc. & in terms of the bigger picture, and had nothing to do with the allegations of mistreatment of prisoners.

I see very clearly how easy it was to apply the reference to something other than what I meant, I pretty much shifted gears in midstream (which was something that I alluded to the editorialist doing earlier in the thread -- I guess that's why I made the jump & figured people would see where I was landing.) I should have added another phrase or something that would have avoided creating confusion.

In other words, a'light ... my bad.

Cool beans.

[Buccaneer]

sabotai: I agree with you. In a relative sense, I believe we adhere to human rights far better than most other countries - not perfect by any sense, but still better. However, I look at society today here in this country and see many cases of degradation - in many forms of abuse (child, spousal, pornographic, etc.), toleration and celebration of deviant behaviors, as well as reduction of personal responsibilities and accountability. Are we then surprised at seeing a photo such as this?

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

By the way NM, how come you didn't get disgusted to the point of exhaustion after seeing photos of missionaries getting tortured and mutilated in China and some ME countries? Or seeing thousands of Kurds piled up after numerous genocide attacks? Or seeing thousands of children being held in bondage in Sub-Sahara Africa? Or seeing a trash can full of dead fetuses? Or many other human atrocities?

I do. I tend to have those discussions in venues other than this forum.

Aren't each of these just as worthy to get raged about just as the ones showing prison abuse? So why single out this one for the comment about being disgusted to the point of exhaustion?

Absolutely. I single this one out because a) I tend to post articles relating to the Iraq situation here; b) I've been struggling with how to articulate my dismay at how much world goodwill we've squandered since 9/11 and c) I thought Friedman did a nice job in an article I felt others here would be interested in reading.

By the by, Bucc, since you're evidently wondering what else is on my attention list that I don't post about here, here's a quick runthrough of the books in the "working through them" spot on my desk: four books on Auschwitz and the Holocaust, the first Shelby Foote Civil War book, Hawking's Universe in a Nutshell, a collection of Afghan womens' poetry, and two Galway Kinnell poetry collections. And to the best of my recollection, I've posted about none of these subjects in this forum, though they all are occupying more than a little of my attention lately.

[Buccaneer]

NM, fair enough. By the way, you and I can debate endlessly about Shelby's views and interpretations in his 3 vol book but seeing that you are living in SC, I suspect we would differ quite a bit.

[John Galt]

I too have been horrified and dismayed at the torture and abuse of prisoners. It makes me fear what is happening in Cuba as well.

And I also am upset about the sad situation for human rights in Burma, the continued deaths in Isreal and in the PNA, the various abuses suffered by women in countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and India, the endless violence in Sudan, and the horrors that occurred in Rwanda.

What do any of the second group have to with the first?

I'm an American and I oppose actions by my government that violate the basic liberties and rights of people. To say this an inevitable part of war and life is just sad. Change happens when people stop saying things are "just the way they are" and that they "are inevitable." That people can actually justify the abuses suffered by these prisoners is disgusting. The righteousness and indigination expressed by Americans who believe they are better than everyone else yet won't face up to the role they/we play in making humanity weaker disturbs me to no end.

America, its military, and its government can be both "GOOD" and "BAD" at the same time. I don't why people pretend it has to be one or the other.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

I do. I tend to have those discussions in venues other than this forum.

If you hold this viewpoint, then do you disagree with what we have done, or just how it was done?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by John Galt

That people can actually justify the abuses suffered by these prisoners is disgusting. The righteousness and indigination expressed by Americans who believe they are better than everyone else yet won't face up to the role they/we play in making humanity weaker disturbs me to no end.

I wasn't trying to justify the abuses, because they are horrible. I just hate all these people that use these acts to attack our entire military/country and the people who focus so much more attention on these pictures than on other abuses around the world to justify their hatred of America/Bush/Globalization/Capitalism.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I wasn't trying to justify the abuses, because they are horrible. I just hate all these people that use these acts to attack our entire military/country and the people who focus so much more attention on these pictures than on other abuses around the world to justify their hatred of America/Bush/Globalization/Capitalism.

Why? America/Bush/Globilization/Capitalism are the in part responsible for the abuses (just as you would say Islamic fundamentalism is in part responsible for 9/11 or many other terrorist attacks).

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Why? America/Bush/Globilization/Capitalism are the in part responsible for the abuses (just as you would say Islamic fundamentalism is in part responsible for 9/11 or many other terrorist attacks).

Because these people say "Look at that terrible human rights abuse" or "Look at this kid who doesn't have enough to eat" and rail against those systems while failing to acknowledge the abuses committed by the systems they want to emulate. Such as the people who look at this and say "See??? America is just as bad as Saddam Hussein!!!"

[Leonidas]

I think most folks around here know I am a military man, and I took part in the initial operation that rid Iraq of that piece of scum know as Saddam Hussein. I have also lost friends in this whole operation and have already signed myself, and five other people who work for me up for another tour over there this fall. So I think I speak from a unique perspective from one particular side. Friedman has an excellent reputation as a straight shooter. In fact he has probably been roundly criticized for being too friendly to the current administration. I like his columns and greatly respect his views. I think for the most part this is a good piece.

But the more pictures of what I see in this prison the madder it makes me. I happen to know a thing or two about the interrogation trade and I can tell you the really good ones at it do not need torture. The really good ones can extract information while the subject doesn't even realize it isn't happening. Then there are some subjects that only brute force works. Every situation is different, but by and large torture is counter productive. When you torture people all you get is mimicry of what you want to hear. What I saw in those pictures was frat party hazing bullshit that had nothing to do with legitimate military interrogation and I am embarassed to share the uniform with anyone who thinks this is the way to do business. I am especially embarrassed because we know the world is watching. Do the people over there doing these things think they can do them, photograph it, and really get away with it? God I am so ashamed of this. I pride myself on being a professional and this crap cheapens the whole deal. Regardless, I know everyone I work with is equally appalled and disgusted not just for oursleves, but for the sake of human decency. You don't treat people this way.

Now I do think Friedman is off on a couple points. I am not so certain we are losing in Iraq. He is correct in pointing out the silent majority. It most certainly is there. But that silent majority is not necessarily as silent as the press would have you believe. There is a great deal of progress being made in many areas. There is a bright side, really, there is. In time I think some folks will be pretty amazed at what comes down.

Anyway, I've been storing this crap up for some days and felt the need to relieve myself of it. For those well meaning right wingers trying to explain this away, just let it go. The whole thing is a huge mistake we need to own up to and make good on. No excuse or rationalization can make any of it better. We just need to suck this one up and make damn sure it doesn't happen again.

[WussGawd]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

re: the op/ed piece -- What an utter & complete pile of steaming horseshit. Just a lot of hot air from someone who clearly has an agenda that the unfortunate incident with a handful of prisoners happens to be useful to further.

Then again, I'd expect nothing less from the NYT.

re: If you're so exhausted, let me suggest that you stay the fuck out of the way of the people who are still willing to do what is necessary to get the job done.

Um, JiMG, you do realize that Friedman has been one of the bigger Bush apologists when it comes to the Iraq War, right?

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Because these people say "Look at that terrible human rights abuse" or "Look at this kid who doesn't have enough to eat" and rail against those systems while failing to acknowledge the abuses committed by the systems they want to emulate. Such as the people who look at this and say "See??? America is just as bad as Saddam Hussein!!!"

Who are "these people?" How is your statement different than theirs?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Why? America/Bush/Globilization/Capitalism are the in part responsible for the abuses (just as you would say Islamic fundamentalism is in part responsible for 9/11 or many other terrorist attacks).

WTF???

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Dutch

WTF???

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory, but I'll try again. Without Bush/Capitalism/Globalization/America, you don't have those abuses in Iraq (just as without Islamic Fundamentalism, you don't have many terrorist attacks). Therefore (in reply to BishopMVP's point), people have reason to hate Bush/Capitalism/Globalization/America for these abuses.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Why? America/Bush/Globilization/Capitalism are the in part responsible for the abuses (just as you would say Islamic fundamentalism is in part responsible for 9/11 or many other terrorist attacks).

Hmm, Islamic fundamentalism promotes and sponsors terrorism, so I guess you are saying that America/Bush/Globilization/Capitalism promote the torture? That's the only way to take that statement.

[Buccaneer]

Just ignore him, most people do.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Hmm, Islamic fundamentalism promotes and sponsors terrorism, so I guess you are saying that America/Bush/Globilization/Capitalism promote the torture? That's the only way to take that statement.

It depends on what you mean by "promote." I preferred to say, "but for." Either way, I don't see why it doesn't make sense for people around the world to increase their hate for America/Bush/Globalization/Capitalism in response to these abuses as America/Bush/Globalization/Capitalism made those abuses possible.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory, but I'll try again. Without Bush/Capitalism/Globalization/America, you don't have those abuses in Iraq (just as without Islamic Fundamentalism, you don't have many terrorist attacks). Therefore (in reply to BishopMVP's point), people have reason to hate Bush/Capitalism/Globalization/America for these abuses.

Bush/Capitalism/Globalization/America don't promote that kind of behavior. That is the worst kind of logical reasoning that I have ever seen. That's like saying that because the DC snipers were black, you don't have that crime without black people. Complete and utter garbage reasoning.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Just ignore him, most people do.

Thanks, Bucc. I try my best to respect you and others. Then you say stuff like that.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Bush/Capitalism/Globalization/America don't promote that kind of behavior. That is the worst kind of logical reasoning that I have ever seen. That's like saying that because the DC snipers were black, you don't have that crime without black people. Complete and utter garbage reasoning.

You are missing my point. I'm saying because B/C/G/A are part of what made these abuses possible, it makes PERFECT sense that people will hate B/C/G/A for these abuses.

I in NO way say that B/C/G/A are equivalent to terrorists or fundamentalism. My point is that these abuses reflect poorly on B/C/G/A and to pretend otherwise is to deny reality.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Thanks, Bucc. I try my best to respect you and others. Then you say stuff like that.

I would say the same of you, sir.

[John Galt]

And how have I ever suggested that other people ignore you? I guess I just find that rude.

[sabotai]

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory, but I'll try again. Without Bush/Capitalism/Globalization/America, you don't have those abuses in Iraq (just as without Islamic Fundamentalism, you don't have many terrorist attacks).

Damn, that's a non-sequintur and a half...I *might* agree if it was Bush (Bush sends troops to Iraq, so the troops physically aren't there without him), but to include Capitlaism/Globalization/America...and I thought Dutch put out some mighty non sequinturs in that past.

[EagleFan]

Those abuses reflect poorly on the people who chose to commit them. If it comes out to be something that is rooted deeper, such as some sort of backwards ass policy, then you can blame the rest of the group. You've been watching too much of that Middle Eastern propoganda.

Those abuses could have happened no matter what the country, leader or association (and have), just based on human nature sometimes. The Islamic fundamentalist funded and sponsored terrorism doesn't happen without them.

[Buccaneer]

Not ignore as in Ignore List but just keep the vitrolic opinions to oneself and not to respond in kind. There was no reason for you to say publically what you did here, knowing that many would take great offense for your weak analogy - just as some should just let your opinions slide on by without comment.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Damn, that's a non-sequintur and a half...I *might* agree if it was Bush (Bush sends troops to Iraq, so the troops physically aren't there without him), but to include Capitlaism/Globalization/America...and I thought Dutch put out some mighty non sequinturs in that past.

Well, I think globalization is the biggest stretch and I thought of leaving it out, but I think it is fair to say if America didn't seek to promote global markets and an American style democracy (two parts of globalization), we wouldn't be in Iraq. And I certainly think capitalism fits there as well. And if Bush is responsible, then all of us as Americans are responsible. We elected him and one man is not responsible for the abuses committed by our armed forces (just as one man would not be responsible for their accomplishments).

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

re: the op/ed piece -- What an utter & complete pile of steaming horseshit. Just a lot of hot air from someone who clearly has an agenda that the unfortunate incident with a handful of prisoners happens to be useful to further.

Then again, I'd expect nothing less from the NYT.

re: If you're so exhausted, let me suggest that you stay the fuck out of the way of the people who are still willing to do what is necessary to get the job done.

Hey Jon,
Are you serving in the military now?What the hell are you doing to get the job done?What job is that,EXACTLY?Do you really believe that what is going on currently in Iraq is benefitting America or Her Interests?BTW I am active duty military and serving.(Osan AB ,South Korea)

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Those abuses reflect poorly on the people who chose to commit them. If it comes out to be something that is rooted deeper, such as some sort of backwards ass policy, then you can blame the rest of the group. You've been watching too much of that Middle Eastern propoganda.

Those abuses could have happened no matter what the country, leader or association (and have), just based on human nature sometimes. The Islamic fundamentalist funded and sponsored terrorism doesn't happen without them.

That is my point. Those abuses can and do happen EVERYWHERE. That is a reason to fight them, not to say they are inevitable. I have no idea if there was a larger policy that made these abuses possible. I don't think it matters. If we send troops to fight a war for us and they do bad things, WE are responsible.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Not ignore as in Ignore List but just keep the vitrolic opinions to oneself and not to respond in kind. There was no reason for you to say publically what you did here, knowing that many would take great offense for your weak analogy - just as some should just let your opinions slide on by without comment.

I'm confused as to why anything I've said here was offensive or uncalled for. It is what I believe in my heart. I believe Americans should feel shame at what their troops have done. I don't know how they could ever feel pride in America if they aren't willing to feel shame when horrible wrong are committed in our name. Blaming a couple individuals is just too convenient for me. I'm not willing to abdicate my responsibility in this and I don't think others should do it either. By throwing stones at those criticizing us, I think we miss an important opportunity to look at ourselves.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Damn, that's a non-sequintur and a half...I *might* agree if it was Bush (Bush sends troops to Iraq, so the troops physically aren't there without him), but to include Capitlaism/Globalization/America...and I thought Dutch put out some mighty non sequinturs in that past.

But that's just because I never check my work before I post.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I'm confused as to why anything I've said here was offensive or uncalled for. It is what I believe in my heart. I believe Americans should feel shame at what their troops have done. I don't know how they could ever feel pride in America if they aren't willing to feel shame when horrible wrong are committed in our name. Blaming a couple individuals is just too convenient for me. I'm not willing to abdicate my responsibility in this and I don't think others should do it either. By throwing stones at those criticizing us, I think we miss an important opportunity to look at ourselves.

One would only think this is an "important opportunity" if in the context of not believing any good came or would come out being Iraq.

But look at what I said earlier in the thread. This is not more of an important opportunity than many other society's ills. You choose to put in the context of Bush/Capilization/etc and that is way too narrow and obviously politically motivated. But you chose to look at what you want to see and have it support your views, I'll chose to look at the more fundamental root cause and how this is not a singular event in human history.

[sabotai]

Well, I think globalization is the biggest stretch and I thought of leaving it out, but I think it is fair to say if America didn't seek to promote global markets and an American style democracy (two parts of globalization), we wouldn't be in Iraq. And I certainly think capitalism fits there as well.

I don't agree with this at all. If it's in America's nature to promote and push whatever it is this nation beleives in (Globalization/Capitalism), then those things can't be held responsible for what America does. If we still wanted to go around spreading what we beleived, but we were a total Communist state, then would Communism be partly responsible? In other words, because America goes around pushing what it beleives, doesn't make those things responsible for what America does.

And if Bush is responsible, then all of us as Americans are responsible. We elected him and one man is not responsible for the abuses committed by our armed forces (just as one man would not be responsible for their accomplishments).

emphasis mine...I would argue that the men and women in the armed forces who commited the abuses are the only ones responsible in anyway. Just because Bush sent them there doesn't mean he's responsible for their actions. It's a slipperly slope (sort of).

Are the soldier's commanding officer responsible for putting them on the shift that the atrocities accured on? Are his parents? You know if they never had him, he wouldn't have been there to put them on that shift, so they are partly resposible. Well, you can't prove that if someone else was the commanding officer that things would nessicarily be different (anyone in command could of, and probably would have, put them on that shift).

What I'm getting at is that, imo anyway, all responsibility is with those commiting the crime. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. In the end, everyone in our armed forces have a mind of their own. It begins and ends with them. They knew what they were doing was wrong, so it's their fault. Fully their fault.

NOW, if you want to argue that those who hate us, Bush, Globalization and Capitalism are going to use this to just hate more all of things they already hate...I won't disagree. They'll use it (just like they'll use anything. A sheep shits on an ant...Bush is the devil.). But they're wrong for using it.