OT: Arsenal Undefeated?

[CraigSca]

It's my understanding that Arsenal has a chance today to be the first team since the 19th century to go the entire Premiership season without a loss.

Is it only because I live in the States that I don't hear a buzz about this? What's the mood like in England? Why isn't there talk about this being perhaps one of the best teams of all time?

I mean, if an NFL team or NBA team went undefeated in the US, that's probably all we would be talking about. Is it the same in other countries? I'm just surprised people aren't going nutso about this, or maybe I'm just not seeing it from this side of the pond.

[Poli]

I look at this, and I read, "OT: Ardent Undefeated?"

I've really got to fix my eyes.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

It's my understanding that Arsenal has a chance today to be the first team since the 19th century to go the entire Premiership season without a loss.

Is it only because I live in the States that I don't hear a buzz about this? What's the mood like in England? Why isn't there talk about this being perhaps one of the best teams of all time?

I mean, if an NFL team or NBA team went undefeated in the US, that's probably all we would be talking about. Is it the same in other countries? I'm just surprised people aren't going nutso about this, or maybe I'm just not seeing it from this side of the pond.

They are losing to Leicester 0-1 right now. And I'm sure Arsenal fans are going nutso. I don't think you'll Man U. fans getting very excited about it though.

[Eaglesfan27]

Go Leicester! I'm now a Man U fan thanks to my CM career

[davidlando1]

yep, it's official Arsenal 2 Leicester 1 . Now we have to put up with Larry Czonka, Bob Griese et al. getting together to celebrate when the last team loses in the English Premier League...bastards!!!

[B & B]

I was sweating the total over 2'

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm watching the game on Fox sports tape delay presentation while playing CM. I can't wait to see how the scoring actually occurs.

[WussGawd]

Maybe the English FOFC denizens can tell. Has this happened before in any division of English Football?

[Mr. Wednesday]

Preston North End did it in the first division (then the top level of English football) back in the late 1800's, I believe.

[BreizhManu]

Arsenal join Invincibles in record book

LONDON (Reuters) - Arsenal have capped an astonishing league season by becoming the first team in 115 years to remain unbeaten in the top flight after a 2-1 win over Leicester City.

The champions matched the achievement of Preston North End, known as the Invincibles, in 1888/9. Preston played 22 matches while Arsenal -- two world wars and five monarchs later -- have played 38 in the premier league, winning 26.

[bhlloy]

It's very impressive and it's getting a decent amount of coverage over here... I'm sure plenty of teams have come close but being the first team to do it in the modern era is something special. AC Milan did it in Italy in the 1990's I believe but apart from that it's unprecedented.

A few jitters over the last few games though when it was clear what they were going for - 2-1 at home against Leicester isn't a great result and they were lucky to get out of Portsmouth with a 1-1 draw a few weeks ago.

[MIJB#19]

Ajax went undefeated in the 1994/1995 season in both the Dutch league and the UEFA Champions' League. Only in the Dutch cup they lost a game that season.

EDIT: I failed to mention that they won both the league and Champions' League.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

It's my understanding that Arsenal has a chance today to be the first team since the 19th century to go the entire Premiership season without a loss.

The LA Times had a pretty great article about this. Sir Alex accused Arsenal of being too arrogant

[Katon]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

It's my understanding that Arsenal has a chance today to be the first team since the 19th century to go the entire Premiership season without a loss.

Is it only because I live in the States that I don't hear a buzz about this? What's the mood like in England? Why isn't there talk about this being perhaps one of the best teams of all time?

Well, Arsenal are having one of the best league seasons ever, but on the other hand this year's Premiership is the only trophy they've won in the past two years and they've never been past the Champion's League quarter-finals and historic teams tend to have a bit more sustained dominance both at home and in Europe than Arsenal have managed.

[mordhiem]

It's the lead story on Sky Sports News at the moment. However the reaction is somewhat subdued as it has seemed almost inevitable they would do it. It is a truly incredible achievement, but I think that their failure (again) in Europe will haunt them. They have been the best team in Europe by a very large distance this year with Real, Man Utd, Milan, Juve et al showing big weaknesses either domestically or on a european scale. Realistically, they should've cleaned up.

[tucker342]

wow.... 38 games, 26 wins and 12 ties. That's incredible.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

The LA Times had a pretty great article about this. Sir Alex accused Arsenal of being too arrogant

Mr. Pot calling out the kettle.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by mordhiem

It's the lead story on Sky Sports News at the moment. However the reaction is somewhat subdued as it has seemed almost inevitable they would do it. It is a truly incredible achievement, but I think that their failure (again) in Europe will haunt them. They have been the best team in Europe by a very large distance this year with Real, Man Utd, Milan, Juve et al showing big weaknesses either domestically or on a european scale. Realistically, they should've cleaned up.

But they weren't the best team in Europe this year. They scraped through the group phase of the competition, won a second-round tie against a team struggling against relegation, and were outplayed and eliminated in the quarter-final. There was only one match in the competition where they really looked like a truly elite team, and that came against the Italian equivalent of Liverpool. There are half a dozen teams who played better than Arsenal in the Champions' League this year; that's not the best team in Europe by any distance.

To pick a specific example, let's look at Milan. Milan's "big weakness" was one unbelievably poor performance away to Deportivo. That was probably the worst single performance by any of the tournament's big shots, but every team in the tournament had at least one performance of the type. Arsenal being humiliated at home to Inter Milan, Chelsea being shut out by Besiktas, and Deportivo shipping eight against Monaco are all from the same category. If this is a weakness, it's one that is shared by most of Europe.

[Mac Howard]

Well, the reason we Man Utd fans are not that impressed is that the record of won 26 drawn 12 lost 0 doesn't compare with Utd's performance in 1999/2000.

Arsenal 2003/2004 - points 90, goals scored 73 (won 26 drawn 12 lost 0)

Man Utd 1999/2000 - points 91, goals scored 97 (won 28 drawn 7 lost 2)

Note in particular the goals scored comparison achieving these

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

Well, the reason we Man Utd fans are not that impressed is that the record of won 26 drawn 12 lost 0 doesn't compare with Utd's performance in 1999/2000.

Arsenal 2003/2004 - points 90, goals scored 73 (won 26 drawn 12 lost 0)

Man Utd 1999/2000 - points 91, goals scored 97 (won 28 drawn 7 lost 2)

Note in particular the goals scored comparison achieving these

C'mon, boss, you can do better than that. For one thing, the ManU totals add up to 37 games. Secondly, "this doesn't compare"?!?!?! Give me a break! Whether or not you think ManU did better, the two are CERTAINLY comparable.

[Mac Howard]

Just a typo, RPI-Fan - it's lost 3.

>Whether or not you think ManU did better, the two are CERTAINLY comparable.

I suppose 73 compares with 97

Just mild trolling, RPI-fan, and explaining why Man Utd fans don't see it as exceptional

But I'm with you on "go red"

[MIJB#19]

Man Utd fans can't see that going all season unbeaten is a big accomplishment because they never saw their own team do the same trick.

[Mac Howard]

Well if you draw all 38 matches you'll still go unbeaten but probably be (justifiably) relegated

And we must remember that they've also lost to both Man Utd (FA Cup) and Chelsea (Champions League) and presumably in the Worthington Cup (but I can't remember to whom) so it's all a bit of a furphy really

And, being a Dutchman, MIJB, you'll probably realise that it was only thanks to Ruud van Nistelrooy blasting that penalty against the bar with minutes to go at Old Trafford that allowed them to go through the league season undefeated. So they can even thank Man Utd for this "undefeated" record - and then look at the way the ungrateful @#&%#@s treated Ruud for that favour

In fact the more I'm caused to think about this the more unimpressive it becomes

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

Well if you draw all 38 matches you'll still go unbeaten but probably be (justifiably) relegated

Belgium, Euro 2000, 3 draws, knocked out in the group stages. Team who can't win don't deserve anything. Still, not losing is arguably the harder accomplishment.

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

And, being a Dutchman, MIJB, you'll probably realise that it was only thanks to Ruud van Nistelrooy blasting that penalty against the bar with minutes to go at Old Trafford that allowed them to go through the league season undefeated. So they can even thank Man Utd for this "undefeated" record - and then look at the way the ungrateful @#&%#@s treated Ruud for that favour

I can't remember that game really, I have to confess I only follow English football through news papers, which don't give you eye candy like penalties on the bar.
Overhere in the NLs, people tend to call it luck of the better team. It's this kind of luck the Dutch top teams have about 5 times a year against smaller teams, yet they are unlucky twice in European games.
Dutch football fans quote Johan Cruijff's "Geluk dwing je af" very often, free translated "luck is like getting what you deserve for your effort".

Besides, letting a Dutchman take a penalty in a big game is asking for trouble. That's one of football's laws: "A Dutchman will miss a penalty kick in the most important game of his career". Ferguson should have known that, Jaap Stam was a Mancunian when he missed against Italy in Euro2000.

It's good to know I'm not an Arsenal or United fan, or else I'd lose my credibility.

[Mac Howard]

>It's good to know I'm not an Arsenal or United fan, or else I'd lose my credibility

Yes indeed. It was quite the most controversial game of the whole EPL season. Five or six Arsenal players were disciplined for the enthusiastic way they "thanked" van Nistelrooy for missing the penalty

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

Yes indeed. It was quite the most controversial game of the whole EPL season. Five or six Arsenal players were disciplined for the enthusiastic way they "thanked" van Nistelrooy for missing the penalty

Ah, I remember that!

[RPI-Fan]

I suppose 73 compares with 97

Ah - so the new system for determining league champions is total goals? I guess I missed that change.

[Mac Howard]

Well, not league champions - that is merely comparing performance over one season. But when it comes to breaking records (which is what the fuss is all about) then we need to compare the stats between seasons and one of those would be goals scored - 97 by Utd in 2000 and 73 by Arsenal in 2004. Another, of course, is matches won - 28 by Utd in 2000 and 26 by Arsenal in 2004. Another would be total points - 91 by Utd in 2000 and 90 by Arsenal in 2004.

Of course another factor in this comparison is the principle of the "repeat". Every sports fan that's worth his salt knows that it's much more difficult to REPEAT a championship than it is to win the first. That's because the champions are seen by all the others as the one to beat. As we say in soccer - for the champions "every match is a Cup Final" because of the increased motivation of the opposition teams to beat the champions.

Arsenal, of course, were not champions last year. But Utd were not only champions in 1999 they were in fact TRIPLE champions - winning the Premiership, the FA Cup and the pinnacle of European soccer the Champions League. So Utd's superior performance was achieved in the REPEAT year.

As I said, the more I think about all this the more unimpressive the Arsenal feat becomes - well, for Utd fans that is, as they're used to a much higher level of achievement than other mere mortals

[Francis_Cole]

I think most fans in england do agree that arsenal this year have been amazing. Even man utd fans praise arsenal for being unbeaten.
The media certainly have been non-stop talking about it.

[CraigSca]

Another question...

In England, is your favorite football team usually the one that represents your hometown or where you live? I know in the US the majority of fans root for their hometeam - I'm wondering if it's the same in Europe.

Mac, are you from Manchester?

[Mac Howard]

Yep! Born and bred just 15 miles from Old Trafford and spent 4 wasted years at Manchester University (they'd be gutted if they knew I design computer games for a living - "All that education and you're doing whaaat?" ). I can even claim to have played for the Man U premier eleven

[andy m]

it does indeed appear that arrogance and lack of chivalry is a key factor in being a manchester united fan.

[CraigSca]

Comp. Sci at Man University - isn't that were the forebearer of UNIX came from? Was it Multics? the first file system-based operating system? But I digress...

Since you came from Manchester, I won't give you grief . It just seems like Man U. are the Yankees or Cowboys of English football. Is Man U. as hated as their American equivalents?

[Mac Howard]

>it does indeed appear that arrogance and lack of chivalry is a key factor in being a manchester united fan.


Irony, andy m. Just making sure these Arsenal fans don't get above themselves

[Mac Howard]

>Comp. Sci at Man University - isn't that were the forebearer of UNIX came from?

Not sure. They do claim the very first electronic computer - prior to the ENIAC.

>Is Man U. as hated as their American equivalents?

It's a cross that all successful teams have to bear

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

It just seems like Man U. are the Yankees or Cowboys of English football. Is Man U. as hated as their American equivalents?

Yes.

And Mac, you must be the first Man U fan I've met that is actually from Manchester. I don't think I'm kidding, I honestly can't think of one. Most of them seem to be City fans.

[Francis_Cole]

A man utd fan from manchester? Is there a catch?

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

Just mild trolling, RPI-fan, and explaining why Man Utd fans don't see it as exceptional

It has nothing to do with the fact that its your arch-rival, rather than truly being unimpressive? Laughable.

[mordhiem]

Arsenal are not really Man Utd's arch rivals, that would be Liverpool. Arsenal and Man U are merely competitors.

[Huckleberry]

Going undefeated isn't as impressive in a league that allows draws. Going undefeated in a basketball season is an entirely superior accomplishment.

For the record, I'm a Manchester City fan.

[HornedFrog Purple]

I adopted Ipswich Town a few years back from playing CM. They got booted out of the premiership but they are in the playoffs in division 1 against West Ham, so go Town!

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by andy m

it does indeed appear that arrogance and lack of chivalry is a key factor in being a manchester united fan.

That is the common factor that Yankees fans share.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple

I adopted Ipswich Town a few years back from playing CM. They got booted out of the premiership but they are in the playoffs in division 1 against West Ham, so go Town!

I became a Forest Green fan after playing them a few times in CM4. How can you not like a team that plays at The Lawn? Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, you don't see Conference games on tv and they aren't exactly perennial promotion favorites.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by mordhiem

Arsenal are not really Man Utd's arch rivals, that would be Liverpool. Arsenal and Man U are merely competitors.

Yes, the truly impressive performances have come from Liverpool in the 70s and 80s who not only dominated the English league but the whole European scene.

Irony over - of course the Arsenal performance is superb and they can truly be called the best in the EPL this season. Their football this season has been quite sublime. They also have, on current form, by far the best player in Europe in Thierry Henry and I can only hope, as an England fan who will watch his team play France in their opening match, that Henry doesn't bring his form along to the Euro 2004 championships. It could be embarrassing for a weakened England defence and Sol Campbell may get a taste of what Premiership defenders have experienced this season.

So congratulations Arsenal and here's hoping that the PLC board in charge of Utd allow Ferguson to bring in the three or four players they will need to challenge for the Premiership next season.

[MrBug708]

I'm a Sunderland fan due to CM

[Franklinnoble]

I've tried to keep up with this thread... but I just can't make myself care. Maybe if I bought Championship Manager, I'd be able to relate...

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I've tried to keep up with this thread... but I just can't make myself care. Maybe if I bought Championship Manager, I'd be able to relate...

Actually you care or else you wouldn't have posted. What you really meant is something like "I'm a miscreant who hoped to post something witty and funny, but ended up sounding tired."

[MIJB#19]

Well, I knew this list would come in handy someday.
Here's a self made list of the teams that I think could be called dominant for a given period of time in European football, mainly the Champions' Cup/League/whatever the name was/is. The criteria were reaching the European main tournament's final at least twice within four seasons (winning it at least once) and see no other team accomplish the same number of final appearances in that period of time.

1955-1960 Real Madrid
1960-1963 Benfica
1963-1967 Internazionale
1966-1970 Celtic
1968-1973 Ajax
1973-1976 Bayern Munchen
1976-1978 Liverpool
1978-1980 Nottingham Forest
1979-1983 Hamburger SV
1980-1984 Liverpool
1985-1989 Steaua Bucuresti
1988-1990 Milan
1990-1993 Olympique Marseille
1992-1995 Milan
1994-1996 Ajax
1995-1998 Juventus
1998-2001 Bayern Munchen
1997-2002 Real Madrid

Note that this list includes teams that were top of the continent for just two seasons (Liverpool mid 70's, Nott'm Forest end 70's, Milan end 80's, Ajax mid 90's) and in some periods of time two teams would qualify as the best (Celtic & Ajax end 60's, HSV & Liverpool early 80's, Bayern & Real Madrid end 90's). Also note that with this list almost every European season is covered, except 1984-1985 and the last two seasons.

[KevinNU7]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

I look at this, and I read, "OT: Ardent Undefeated?"

I've really got to fix my eyes.

UNDEFEATED!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Well, I knew this list would come in handy someday.
Here's a self made list of the teams that I think could be called dominant for a given period of time in European football, mainly the Champions' Cup/League/whatever the name was/is. The criteria were reaching the European main tournament's final at least twice within four seasons (winning it at least once) and see no other team accomplish the same number of final appearances in that period of time.

1955-1960 Real Madrid
1960-1963 Benfica
1963-1967 Internazionale
1966-1970 Celtic
1968-1973 Ajax
1973-1976 Bayern Munchen
1976-1978 Liverpool
1978-1980 Nottingham Forest
1979-1983 Hamburger SV
1980-1984 Liverpool
1985-1989 Steaua Bucuresti
1988-1990 Milan
1990-1993 Olympique Marseille
1992-1995 Milan
1994-1996 Ajax
1995-1998 Juventus
1998-2001 Bayern Munchen
1997-2002 Real Madrid

Note that this list includes teams that were top of the continent for just two seasons (Liverpool mid 70's, Nott'm Forest end 70's, Milan end 80's, Ajax mid 90's) and in some periods of time two teams would qualify as the best (Celtic & Ajax end 60's, HSV & Liverpool early 80's, Bayern & Real Madrid end 90's). Also note that with this list almost every European season is covered, except 1984-1985 and the last two seasons.

Hmm...I don't see Man U on this list. Maybe they're not up to the Yankees or Cowboys level.