More Atheists in Foxholes (reposted article)

[Fritz]

From Strategy Page

June 1, 2004: The old adage that there are “no atheists in foxholes” does not appear to apply as much as it used to. It turns out that the active duty troops in the American armed forces are somewhat less religious than the population as a whole.

Americans over all are 78 percent Christian, 1.3 percent Jewish, .5 percent Moslem, .4 percent Hindu, 13 percent unknown or none and the rest various other sects and faiths. But the troops are 55 percent Christian, .3 percent Moslem, .27 percent Jewish, .04 percent Hindu, .24 percent Buddhist and 34 percent unknown or no preference. Part of this may be a generational thing, as the troops are younger than the population as a whole. People become more religious as they get older. Another factor is probably education, as the high education standards for recruits means those in uniform have several years more formal education than their civilian peers. More literate too, as people in uniform read at a level a full year ahead of civilians. As people become more educated, they tend to be less religious.

While most religions are underrepresented in the military, there are some exceptions. The Mormons (Latter Day Saints), represent 1.3 percent of the American population, and 1.1 percent of the troops. Catholics, which are 25 percent of the population, are 22 percent of the troops. The Mormons are recruited energetically by the military. Mormon families emphasize education and clean living for their kids, which makes them ideal candidates for enlisted or officer slots. Because nearly all Mormon men spend two years as missionaries, and many do this in foreign countries (after learning the local language at Mormon schools), Mormons are particularly sought after for intelligence, translation and Special Forces jobs. The largest concentration of reserve Military Intelligence units is located in Utah, a state with a majority Mormon population. If Mormons cannot be enticed into active duty, the armed forces makes it easier for the well educated and multi-lingual Mormons to join these reserve units.

Even so, when American troops work with those from other countries, the foreign soldiers are surprised at how “religious” the U.S. troops are. That’s because the United States has the highest rate of religious participation in the industrialized nations.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Fritz

From Strategy Page

As people become more educated, they tend to be less religious ... the United States has the highest rate of religious participation in the industrialized nations.

Hrmm...

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Hrmm...

The truth hurts, don't it???

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Americans over all are 78 percent Christian, 1.3 percent Jewish, .5 percent Moslem, .4 percent Hindu, 13 percent unknown or none and the rest various other sects and faiths.

It just seems like we'll never know the truthful answer to this question. How many of those 78 per cent, in particular, are really in the "unknown" column but just feel more comfortable considering themselves semi-or-non-practicing, mostly unaffiliated Christians?

And it strikes me as a little odd to lump "unknown" and "none" together... which certainly seems like a grouping that was prepared by a believer, who might not recognize there to be any difference.

[wade moore]

In addition to QS's comments...

Are you really "Catholic" if you were baptized Catholic and go to church less than once a year? I just wonder how that compares to the "religious" in other countries.. they probably do not have the social stigmatism against being "non-religious" that we do so they get more truthful answers...

[gi]

There is some great stuff at www.ffrf.org about this very issue and others. I was in the Army and am a Freethinking Atheist..... There are countless stories about Atheist's in foxholes...good stuff.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Axxon

The truth hurts, don't it???

Actually, the apostle Paul acknowledges this in 1 Corinthians.

1 Cor. 1:18-25 (NKJV)

^{(1) 18} For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. ¹⁹For it is written:


"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."<sup>[1]


20</sup>Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? ²¹For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. ²²For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; ²³but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks^[2] foolishness, ²⁴but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. ²⁵Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

[Fritz]

^{I like little text way up top}

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by gi

There is some great stuff at www.ffrf.org about this very issue and others. I was in the Army and am a Freethinking Atheist..... There are countless stories about Atheist's in foxholes...good stuff.

I hope you were comparing yourself to a non-freethinking atheist

[gi]

I wasn't aware that I was comparing myself to anything....

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Actually, the apostle Paul acknowledges this in 1 Corinthians.

Paul acknowledged no such thing. He compares the foolishness OF God, not the foolishness of the belief in God. Since the belief in God was what put food on his table so to speak, surely he couldn't address this issue.

To the believer, God is all knowing and all powerful and as we all know man is not, therefore to say that the foolishness of God would dwarf even the greatest wisdom of man isn't exactly a stunning revelation is it?? Heck, I'm sure even nonbelievers would say that this is true if you believe in the myth.

I wasn't talking about this though. I was talking about the sad state of education in this country and how vehemently people fight for the right to be mediocre but then assume we're superior because we're the U.S.A. It's odd but I guess it's cool to sit in our trailers, drinking beer and being pissed because the foreigners have all the good jobs and we're forced into unemployment because we're too good to work at Walmart.

I had never related this to religion but it may well be true. Religion, if it indeed requires ignorance ( and I'd add poverty as well ) then keeping it's constituency dumb and poor makes sense. If so, then it's just another reason for me to despise religion and their so called morality.

See, I embrace knowledge and respect those who seek it and think education is a pretty good thing. I also believe in God. I don't believe education inhibits belief in God per se. I believe it seriously affects belief in idiots who unswervingly center on very specific verses in a book to push their own beliefs while ignoring any other verses but still insist the entire book is the word of God.

It's not the word of God and I can prove it. If it was the word of God it would be clear and easy to understand. The creator of all languages would clearly have a way with words. End of argument.

The last paragraph was paraphrased by the late great Bill Hicks but know what? I agree with him.

I guess my belief in God stops where the words of man trying to tell me what God is and wants and what I MUST believe in start and I think that is as it should be. If I decide I agree with what you believe then I'll join you. So far, I like bits and pieces of a lot of things but still haven't found anything to buy into 100%

[Axxon]

Dola,

I'm pretty sure the reason I haven't is because too many humans have made their own personal preferences crucial to follow their particular flavor of the ONE TRUE GOD.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Paul acknowledged no such thing. He compares the foolishness OF God, not the foolishness of the belief in God. Since the belief in God was what put food on his table so to speak, surely he couldn't address this issue.

To the believer, God is all knowing and all powerful and as we all know man is not, therefore to say that the foolishness of God would dwarf even the greatest wisdom of man isn't exactly a stunning revelation is it?? Heck, I'm sure even nonbelievers would say that this is true if you believe in the myth.

I wasn't talking about this though. I was talking about the sad state of education in this country and how vehemently people fight for the right to be mediocre but then assume we're superior because we're the U.S.A. It's odd but I guess it's cool to sit in our trailers, drinking beer and being pissed because the foreigners have all the good jobs and we're forced into unemployment because we're too good to work at Walmart.

I had never related this to religion but it may well be true. Religion, if it indeed requires ignorance ( and I'd add poverty as well ) then keeping it's constituency dumb and poor makes sense. If so, then it's just another reason for me to despise religion and their so called morality.

See, I embrace knowledge and respect those who seek it and think education is a pretty good thing. I also believe in God. I don't believe education inhibits belief in God per se. I believe it seriously affects belief in idiots who unswervingly center on very specific verses in a book to push their own beliefs while ignoring any other verses but still insist the entire book is the word of God.

It's not the word of God and I can prove it. If it was the word of God it would be clear and easy to understand. The creator of all languages would clearly have a way with words. End of argument.

The last paragraph was paraphrased by the late great Bill Hicks but know what? I agree with him.

I guess my belief in God stops where the words of man trying to tell me what God is and wants and what I MUST believe in start and I think that is as it should be. If I decide I agree with what you believe then I'll join you. So far, I like bits and pieces of a lot of things but still haven't found anything to buy into 100%

Well, maybe you and I are reading that passage a little differently. I'm presently studying 1 Corinthians, and one of the topics that Paul addresses in this letter to the church at Corinth is the very fact that people who have devoted themselves to the pursuit of secular knowledge and wisdom often have trouble with the simple message of the Gospel - all men are sinners and are born damned, and cannot achieve salvation by their own means, only through the grace of Jesus Christ who sacrificed himself on the cross for ALL men.

As for your implication that the Bible is not plain-speaking enough, well, all I can say is that it started making a lot more sense to me once I took the time to really study it, and did so with an open heart. I believe that the Bible is plain enough to all who truly seek the Lord and are filled with the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 12:3

³Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

[gi]

Out of simple curiosity, which bible are you talking about? There are many, each with slightly different translations and word use.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Well, maybe you and I are reading that passage a little differently. I'm presently studying 1 Corinthians, and one of the topics that Paul addresses in this letter to the church at Corinth is the very fact that people who have devoted themselves to the pursuit of secular knowledge and wisdom often have trouble with the simple message of the Gospel - all men are sinners and are born damned, and cannot achieve salvation by their own means, only through the grace of Jesus Christ who sacrificed himself on the cross for ALL men.

I don't see it. I don't think the belief in God springs from the same well as the search for knowledge. I feel that people use knowledge to explain their lack of belief when confronted but belief is either something you have or don't have.

As for your implication that the Bible is not plain-speaking enough, well, all I can say is that it started making a lot more sense to me once I took the time to really study it, and did so with an open heart. I believe that the Bible is plain enough to all who truly seek the Lord and are filled with the Holy Spirit.

I don't see this either. If God wanted to share his wisdom with the people he'd have made it crystal clear to everyone, especially those without the capability to comprehend compicated passages nor the desire to do so. He wouldn't talk in riddles he'd do what Jesus did and speak in simple language and with simple stories that are timeless and they'd understand.

Biblical scholars make careers splitting hairs about what the bible says and what it means and new churches spring up around interpreting the bible differently. God wouldn't need to do that if he wrote the book.

If someone truly seeks the Lord and are filled with the Holy Spirit they will be filled with faith. I believe this. I don't think the bible plays into this. It can't. There are enough examples in the bible itself of people who hadn't read it and who meet the criteria and are filled with faith.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by gi

Out of simple curiosity, which bible are you talking about? There are many, each with slightly different translations and word use.

Any and all of them, of every conceivable religion. At least, that's the bible I'm talking about.

[sabotai]

I believe that the Bible is plain enough to all who truly seek the Lord and are filled with the Holy Spirit.

In other words, it's easy to understand to those who already beleive in God faithfully and beleive it is 100% the word of God.

So why do you feel the need to 'study' it? If it's so easy and plain enough, wouldn't one read through be enough?

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by sabotai

In other words, it's easy to understand to those who already beleive in God faithfully and beleive it is 100% the word of God.

So why do you feel the need to 'study' it? If it's so easy and plain enough, wouldn't one read through be enough?

Not to mention, why are there so many different brands of Christianity if the Bible is so easy to understand and clear?

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

Not to mention, why are there so many different brands of Christianity if the Bible is so easy to understand and clear?

Because those not belonging to whoever's sect is obviously not one with God! DUH!

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Axxon

I had never related this to religion but it may well be true. Religion, if it indeed requires ignorance ( and I'd add poverty as well ) then keeping it's constituency dumb and poor makes sense. If so, then it's just another reason for me to despise religion and their so called morality.

Interesting to note that Uniterian Universalists, on average, are more educated and have a higher income than the average American. We also don't tend to believe in blind faith but rather think that each individual should find and discover what is Truth to them.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Telle

Interesting to note that Uniterian Universalists, on average, are more educated and have a higher income than the average American. We also don't tend to believe in blind faith but rather think that each individual should find and discover what is Truth to them.

Hmm, thanks for the information. Sounds really interesting.

Just did a quick google search and while I don't have time to explore before I go to work I found some pretty cool stuff to look at once I get there.

A religion which allows mixing and matching of beliefs?

I wouldn't have believed it possible.

At a Unitarian Universalist worship service or meeting, you are likely to find members whose positions on faith may be derived from a variety of religious beliefs: Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, naturist, atheist, or agnostic. Members might tell you that they are religious humanists, liberal Christians, or world religionists.

All these people, and others who label their beliefs still differently, are faithful Unitarian Universalists committed to the practice of free religion. We worship, sing, play, study, teach, and work for social justice together as congregations-all the while remaining strong in our individual convictions.

Imagine, so many fine, upstanding, God loving folks burning in hell for all eternity together.

Again, thanks.

Some may say it sounds more like a club than a religion from the quote above. I don't know about that though. I'll post more thoughts once I've looked at it more.

[Fritz]

fwiw, my bible: http://www.boomerbible.com/

[QuikSand]

Uniterian Universalists...

The nickname I like for these folks is this one: atheists with kids

[Noop]

What do you call people who believe in God but not in religion?

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

The nickname I like for these folks is this one: atheists with kids

Any reason for that nickname??

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Noop

What do you call people who believe in God but not in religion?

I'd say in this case a label isn't necessary. Labels are used to show inclusion not exclusion. Now, those who are "religious" may want to label folks like that but those aren't generally positive names.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Any reason for that nickname??

Just 'cause it sums up the actual feelings of a whole lot of people who find themselves in a UU congregation.

I've got absolutely nothing against the organization or the concept... but quite a lot of people I know who are UUs both fit this mold and would affirm that most of their fellow UUs do as well.

- - -

edit: Rather than have this turn ugly (not my intent) I'm just saying that it's a bit of a poke at the folks who are not religious in their own lives, and are generally comfortable with that - but then when they have kids, they sort of seek to "hedge their bets" and give their kids at least some sense of that environment -- and the UU place gives them a place to go on Sunday mornings, someone to talk about being a good person and proper values, but generally not a lot of "preachiness" and ritual to observe. Many find that a fair compromise, given their own conclusions about religion and faith.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Just 'cause it sums up the actual feelings of a whole lot of people who find themselves in a UU congregation.

I've got absolutely nothing against the organization or the concept... but quite a lot of people I know who are UUs both fit this mold and would affirm that most of their fellow UUs do as well.

- - -

edit: Rather than have this turn ugly (not my intent) I'm just saying that it's a bit of a poke at the folks who are not religious in their own lives, and are generally comfortable with that - but then when they have kids, they sort of seek to "hedge their bets" and give their kids at least some sense of that environment -- and the UU place gives them a place to go on Sunday mornings, someone to talk about being a good person and proper values, but generally not a lot of "preachiness" and ritual to observe. Many find that a fair compromise, given their own conclusions about religion and faith.

Fair enough. I didn't take anything as ugly. I don't fit the category mentioned in your edit but those types of folks need a place to go too so I don't think there's anything wrong with it if that's what it's about.

I haven't had time to read any more about it but I'm going to. I hope there's more to the concept than that though.

[Noop]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121397,00.html

Why oh why..... You destroyed it for the rest of us who will be left to clean this mess that is brewing in the kitchen.

[Axxon]

I found this on a website.

QUESTION: My interest in joining is presently stalled by some embarassment of my economic reality. My salary is about $36K, wife unemployed for over a year. We understand the church isn't a country club, so we're not afraid of being turned away. I guess we're just not sure what we can comfortably pledge would be meaningful as the church might define it (they've made a point of mentioning only 20% of their members contribute 80% of their dollars). I hate to be so squirrely but can you give me an idea of a dollar amount or percentage of salary which is considered quote "meaningful" before I arrange a meeting with the minister?

Brian
Bay Area, California

ANSWER: Your question is important, because it goes to the issue of commitment to a spiritual community and the meaning of membership in that community. I believe that most any UU congregation I can think of would tell you that they hope members will give at a level that signifies their commitment to that community. Many encourage a commitment of 3% to 5% of income...and that will obviously be a different number for different people. I believe that most important is your deep commitment, and with that comes doing what you can for something of importance to you and your family.

There is another question that you raise, which concerns how you will be treated, given that you don't have a high income level. I hope that you will be treated well and respectfully, but I also know that this can be a growing edge for some UU congregations. For too long, our congregations patted themselves on the back for having people in them who had relatively high incomes. I hope that much of this has ended, but if you find that there is some of this sense in the congregations you visit, I hope you will feel comfortable raising the question with the minister(s) of the congregation...we need to learn how to be in respectful worshipping community with one another.

I wish you well on your spiritual journey.

Debbie Weiner
Director of Electronic Communication

http://www.uua.org/newcomers/newcomerbb.html

While I appreciate the honesty I'm not interested in providing bragging rights to a community. I guess my search is still ongoing. Shame too, I like the professed beliefs but this is a bit too direct for my taste.

Plus, I don't have kids.