Player weights & position switches (INPUT NEEDED)

[cthomer5000]

Someone is always looking for this info, and I can never really find it. I think this would be a nice addition to the reference thread when complete.

What weight ranges must a player be to switch to X position?


DE: 260-299 The only think I know for a fact is defensive end. To switch to/within the DE group a player must weigh at least 260 and no more than 299. (259 = no good, 300 = no good).

LB: 220(?) - 260(?) I'm not sure, but I believe an LB over 260 will not be able to switch to another LB position.


Your input is greatly appreciated.

[cthomer5000]

somebody must know something. I vow to dola the shit out of this post until we have this completed.

Or more likely i'll just test it myself tonight after getting no help here.

[albionmoonlight]

miss . . . ez . . . so . . . much . . .

[stevew]

This is a great Idea. I will be interested in seeing
the results of your work.

[JesterBlaze]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Someone is always looking for this info, and I can never really find it. I think this would be a nice addition to the reference thread when complete.

What weight ranges must a player be to switch to X position?


DE: 260-290 The only think I know for a fact is defensive end. To switch to/within the DE group a player must weigh at least 260 and no more than 290. (259 = no good, 291 = no good).

LB: 220(?) - 260(?) I'm not sure, but I believe an LB over 260 will not be able to switch to another LB position.


Your input is greatly appreciated.

cthomer5000,

Since I just got this game I'm too addicted to do anything but actually play it right now but as the newness wears off I'd be willing to help out on this. I can clearly see the usefulness of a reference like this.

[cthomer5000]

bah. I'll just figure it out when I get home tonight.

[JeeberD]

Hasn't Jim said that weight really doesn't matter in the game? Or is that just height..?

[JesterBlaze]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Hasn't Jim said that weight really doesn't matter in the game? Or is that just height..?

When going through the threads linked to by the "All inclusive reference thread" recently I read that weight does matter and that height unfortunately doesn't.

Not sure if I was linked to an old pre-patch thread though.

[cthomer5000]

weight = only matters for position switches
height = doesn't ever matter

[Vince]

Corey, let me look...because of my vacuous Guard space last season, I was really interested in this for Guards. I've got some data somewhere, let me pull it up real quick.

[cthomer5000]

I've started my research, and here's where I am so far. What's news to me is that there are some types of players who can't go to certain positions despite fitting the weight range. For instance, a 260 lb Tight End cannot move to DE, and can only be moved to fullback.

pos	min	max
QB
RB
FB
TE
WR
C	260*	none
G	275	none
T	280	none
DE	260	299
DT	290	none
ILB	230	275
OLB	220	270
CB	LT 158	220
S	LT 158	230
*	262 is proven, but I would need to find a non-center at 260 lbs to prove my therory
	260 is a safe bet

LT = Less Than

I couldn't find a player in the league less than 158, but we can probably assume that any eligible player under 220 and 230 can be shifted to CB and S, respectively.

[cthomer5000]

pos	min	max
QB	n/a	n/a
RB	none	260
FB	215	280*
TE	215	280*
WR	none	230
C	260*	none
G	275	none
T	280	none
DE	260	299
DT	290	none
ILB	230	275
OLB	220	270
CB	none	220
S	none	230

*at FB, 279 was the highest testable weight. 280 is my theory.
*at TE, 273 was the highest testable weight. 280 is my theory.
*at C, 262 was the lowest testable weight (and 259 could not be moved to C). 260 is my theory.
*no players can be moved to QB, but QB's can be changed to other positions.

[cthomer5000]

my next step would be to figure out exactly which position groups certain types of players can switch within.

For instance, a 260 lb. DT can move to Center, while a 260 lb. DE cannot.

[Ben E Lou]

Is this still a work in progress, or is it ready to be linked?

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Is this still a work in progress, or is it ready to be linked?

it's about as complete as is reasonably possible.

[Alf]

And it would be appreciated if SkyDog could link to it from the sticky reference thread. I had to do a global search to find it again.


Thanks very much corey. It might help me in IHOF (you'll see :evil

[cthomer5000]

I think SkyDog deemed it unsticky-worth for some unknown reason. Speculation about a game can make it, facts about an existing game do not.

[Ben E Lou]

...or maybe I made a mistake, thinking I'd stickied it. Thanks for assuming the worst.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

...or maybe I made a mistake, thinking I'd stickied it. Thanks for assuming the worst.

Well, you questioned the sticky worthiness of both this thread and the coaching salary bug thread. I would say it was a pretty educated guess.

[Ben E Lou]

Ummmm...I questioned it because you yourself called it "a work in progress."

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Ummmm...I questioned it because you yourself called it "a work in progress."

Actually, you asked if it was a work in progress, and I responded.

Regardless, thanks for incuding it in the sticky thread (if you choose to do so).

[Ben E Lou]

You forgot, apparently. I used the phrase "work in progress" because those were the exact words of the person who posted in the sticky thread asking me to link to it (I think that person is you, but I'm not certain). I left that post in the sticky thread for quite some time, then came into this thread and asked if it was *still* a work in progress.

[cthomer5000]

I couldn't say whether I did or did not use that languange when requesting this be added, as it was some time before the thread got touched.

Regardless, you came in here, asked about it, then didn't add it. I assumed that was a conscious decision on your part.

Sorry if I offended you in some way by suggesting that was the case.

[Ben E Lou]

No, it wasn't a conscious decision. When I add a requested link, such as this one, it is a multi-step process, including deleting the post requesting the link, editing the sticky thread, copying the link, pasting the link, etc., and I usually add two or three links in one sitting. I'm quite sure what happened is that I left off a step, much like I apparently did with the 2004 rosters, as is mentioned in the thread right now.

[gstelmack]

Hehehe, a fight over whether or not a thread was once considered "sticky-worthy" or not ;-)

BTW, anyone figured out the position limitations on this? I'm thinking the next version of DraftAnalyzer may tell you what pro positions a player could possibly play (nothing quite like drafting an SILB and finding out he can't switch to MLB...)

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

(nothing quite like drafting an SILB and finding out he can't switch to MLB...)

I'd quite possibly pay money* to know what the limitations on moving a *ILB to MLB are, for this very reason, and for the sake of my hair that I pull out every time this happens.....


*OK, not really....

[WSUCougar]

cthomer: "You got your peanut butter in my chocolate!"

SkyDog: "You got your chocolate in my peanut butter!"

cthomer: "You got your Georgia on my Rutgers!"

SkyDog: "You got your Rutgers on my Georgia!"

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

BTW, anyone figured out the position limitations on this? I'm thinking the next version of DraftAnalyzer may tell you what pro positions a player could possibly play (nothing quite like drafting an SILB and finding out he can't switch to MLB...)

Linebackers can always move within the LB positions as long as their weight is in the correct ranges. I've posted it above in one of those tables, but to 'move' a player to MLB (or any ILB position), they need to be between 230 and 275 pounds. So if you draft a 219 pound MLB, he's either stuck at MLB, or you can move him to safety.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Linebackers can always move within the LB positions as long as their weight is in the correct ranges. I've posted it above in one of those tables, but to 'move' a player to MLB (or any ILB position), they need to be between 230 and 275 pounds. So if you draft a 219 pound MLB, he's either stuck at MLB, or you can move him to safety.

Understood, and that's why I'm going to put it in. It's the other position changes you hinted at (DE not going to C) that I was wondering about. I'd hate to lie to someone about where a player they're about to draft can go

But if no one has that, I'll either play around with it myself or wait for the bug reports to roll in...

[gstelmack]

I'm gathering some quick data. Looks like:

RB/FB can't move to LB (and vice-versa)
DE can't move to OL/TE
TE can't move to DL/LB

At least at a quick glance. There may well be more restrictions (and some are implicit in the weight restrictions, although I have not checked, say, a light DE in college if he can become a RB).

[gstelmack]

A bit more data: apparently the breakdowns may need to be more detailed than just "OLB". I have a 269-lb LDE that I just drafted who can switch to:

RDE
SLB
SILB
MLB
WILB

No Weak-Side Linebacker shows up.

(now watches cthomer roll eyes wondering "where was all this input 3 months ago when I was trying to put this together?")

I have a couple of T that can't switch to DE, so that appears to be a 2-way street. And I confirmed that a light DE can't move to RB once drafted. I'm generating a table for Draft Analyzer. Here's what I've got so far:

static const bool kCanSwitchFrom[CFOFDraftAnalyzerDlg::kPositionCount][CFOFDraftAnalyzerDlg::kPositionCount] =
{
	//   QB,    RB,    FB,    TE,    WR,     C,     T,     G,    DT,    DE,   ILB,   OLB,    CB,     S,     P,     K
	{  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true, false, false }	// kQuarterback
	,{false,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true, false, false, false, false,  true,  true, false, false }	//  kRunningBack
	,{false,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true, false, false, false, false,  true,  true, false, false }	//  kFullback
	,{false,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true, false, false, false, false,  true,  true, false, false }	//  kTightEnd
	,{false,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true, false, false }	//  kWideReceiver
	,{false,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true, false,  true,  true,  true,  true, false, false }	//  kCenter
	,{false,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true, false,  true,  true,  true,  true, false, false }	//  kTackle
	,{false,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true, false,  true,  true,  true,  true, false, false }	//  kGuard
	,{false, false, false, false, false,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true, false, false }	//  kDefensiveTackle
	,{false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true, false, false }	//  kDefensiveEnd
	,{false, false, false, false, false,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true, false, false }	//  kInsideLinebacker
	,{false, false, false, false, false,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true, false, false }	//  kOutsideLinebacker
	,{false,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true, false, false }	//  kCornerback
	,{false,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true,  true, false, false }	//  kSafety
	,{false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false,  true,  true }	//  kPunter
	,{false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false,  true,  true }	//  kKicker
};

You index by current position group, then target. So find the row for your current position group of the player, then go across for all potential positions, then apply weight restrictions. This does not account for WLB/SLB differences as described above, but is close.

[cthomer5000]

wow, that SLB but not WLB is seriously strange. thanks for the info, I'll take a close look when I have game access again.

[Runtheball]

Of course a DT can switch to NT, but would you expect ANY skill loss? Is it worth it to actually change his position designation, or would you simply line him up at NT without actually switching his position? Is there any penalty to his performance for playing out-of-position since he's a DT playing the role of a NT?

[gstelmack]

It depends. If he's a DT drafted out of college that does not have the weight for one of the DT positions, he won't be able to switch. I've got a SS for me now that was drafted as an SILB, and when I went to a 4-3 and discovered he was too light to play any ILB position, I moved him to SS.

But in most cases my switches from LDT <-> NT <-> RDT <-> LDT incur no potential loss, but they do still incur an experience loss. Which means leave them alone and play them where you want.

This is also when you get mad when the scout says "Hey, you should be playing a 4-3!" and ruins your star NT by switching him to LDT and costing him experience (not that this has ever happened to me or anything...)

[gstelmack]

Another interesting idea for investigation if someone has time: I'm finding a lot of college players imported from TCY that are a bit light to play their position in the NFL. For example, 270-lb DTs play fine in college but are more DE material, or ILBs from college that can only play OLB or S in the NFL.

It would be interesting to see if these guys develop well at the position they draft in, or if they are more likely to bust than normal. Will they develop better in a different position?

[cuervo72]

I've always thought it would be interesting if players could "grow into" positions...IOW, if player weights were dynamic.

[gstelmack]

In case anyone is curious, here is a breakdown of the current NFL by position with average height, sample-based standard deviation for height, average weight, and sample-based standard deviation for weight:

 		 Ht Av   StDv	 Wt Av	  StDv
 C  Result	75.13	1.30	288.17	23.37
 DB  Result	71.68	1.82	199.19	16.22
 DE  Result	75.83	1.35	276.28	15.61
 DT  Result	75.07	1.50	306.07	16.20
 FB  Result	72.16	1.50	238.25	16.62
 G  Result	75.94	1.15	313.22	19.30
 K  Result	72.32	2.31	202.59	18.20
 LB  Result	73.62	1.52	240.36	9.97
 P  Result	74.09	1.88	212.15	16.24
 QB  Result	74.70	1.55	221.68	14.19
 RB  Result	71.16	1.79	220.80	17.24
 T  Result	77.31	1.51	315.25	19.06
 TE  Result	76.05	1.35	256.88	10.50
 WR  Result	72.63	2.17	200.60	14.35
 Grand Total	73.93	2.53	246.27	45.70
 

[gstelmack]

Rhone Ranger has discovered that the weights have tweaked a bit in 5.1a (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/f...ad.php?t=32708):

Originally Posted by RhoneRanger

RB 265 or less
FB/TE 210 and up
WR 235 or less
C any
G 270 and up
T 275 and up
DT 280 and up
DE 255-315
ILB 215-280
SLB 220-275
WLB 220-270
CB 225 or less
S 235 or less

I'm not sure I agree about Center; has anyone seen a player under 260 that can switch to Center? Either there is still a minimum, or there are position requirements on this (I've got a 259-lb TE that can't go to Center).

Also note the different maxes for SLB/WLB, which pins down a query I had above. I'm also trying to pin down if the drop from 230 -> 215 for ILB is only for SILB/WILB, or if it applies to MLB as well. A bit more digging needs to be done here.

[gstelmack]

Okay, time to REALLY get to the bottom of this. I've created a spreadsheet and posted it at http://home.nc.rr.com/gstelmack/PositionWeights.xls. If you are interested in contributing and are using FOF2k4 5.1a, here's what I'd like you to do:

1. Download the spreadsheet.
2. Print your 5.1a team roster to a text file, open in Excel, and copy the player name, position, and weight columns into this spreadsheet.
3. Go through your roster and attempt to change every player to every position that he can be changed to.
4. Fill in the columns for the players as follows:

-1 = player already at this position
0 = can't change
1-99 = game-reported ratings change
100 = can switch with no change
110 = switch could increase ratings

5. E-mail your spreadsheet back to me at [email protected].

I'll compile these into one giant spreadsheet which I'll share with anyone who wants it. The goal here is to use this to determine which positions can switch to which other positions, what weight ranges apply, and what determines how successful the switch will be (weight only, weight + originating position, or hidden attributes we can't predict?). Those results will be posted (again, I'll share the spreadsheet, so anyone who wants to help with analysis can as well).

In addition, I'll use the results to update Draft Analyzer. What I'd like to be able to do is show possible NFL positions like:

SLB+ MLB WLB LCB- RCB- SS-- FS--

where the listed positions are those that are possible, while a "+" indicates better at that position, no modifier means little or no change, "-" is some change, and "--" is a big change.

The spreadsheet shows a sample from one team I've got at home, and I've got another team or two I can add to it to get more data. But the more players we've got, the better the results will be.

[Pyser]

i just drafted an olb that weighed 220. he was too light to move to ilb. im on 5.1a.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Pyser

i just drafted an olb that weighed 220. he was too light to move to ilb. im on 5.1a.

Agreed. In the 3 test teams I've been through so far this weekend, no one under 225 can move to ILB. I've got a pair of WLB (223/224) that cannot move to any of the ILB positions.

[Pyser]

i have a 225 olb that can move to cb, and a 235 that can move to safety. these are higher weights than 5.0. 236 is too heavy to move to safety. de has dropped to at least 255 (lowest ive found so far). 280 seems to be as heavy as you can be to move to olb, which is more than 5.0. 280 also seems to be the lightest a player can be to move to dt. i found a 297 player that can move to de, but 300 cannot. i think 299 is the heaviest a de can be.

[Pyser]

5.0..................................5.1a
pos min max.......................min....max
QB n/a n/a ........................n/a.....n/a
RB none 260 ......................none..
FB 215 280* ......................210
TE 215 280* ......................210
WR none 230 ......................none..235
C 260* none.......................260....none
G 275 none ........................275....none
T 280 none ........................275...none
DE 260 299 .......................255....320
DT 290 none .....................280....none
ILB 230 275 ......................225....280
OLB 220 270 .....................220....280
CB none 220 .....................none...225
S none 230 .......................none....235

this isnt exact...it was done fairly quickly. if you find an exception, copy a repaste with your new finding.

sometimes you need to switch a player to another position first to have them eligible for others. for instance, a 230 lb wr is only eligible for rb and safety, but once switched to safety, is then eligible for olb, ilb, etc.

also, it seems some players can play different positions at different weights. i found a player who could switch to de at 320, but some at 318 who couldnt. so this list is not exact...it seems there are more variables.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Okay, time to REALLY get to the bottom of this. I've created a spreadsheet and posted it at http://home.nc.rr.com/gstelmack/PositionWeights.xls. If you are interested in contributing and are using FOF2k4 5.1a, here's what I'd like you to do:

...

5. E-mail your spreadsheet back to me at [email protected].

...

Greg, I've started on it and I'll send you 3 teams as soon as I am finished (i expect in a couple of days as it is a pretty time-consuming process...).

Can't wait to see the results.

[fantastic flying froggies]

dola - after doing some 50 odd players so far, I'm pretty sure experience plays a role in the conversion as well. For example, 2 guys at the same position with the same weight have different % conversion whether they're rookies or veterans.

So my question to you Greg is this, do you want us to add an experience column to your spreadsheet ?

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by fantastic flying froggies

dola - after doing some 50 odd players so far, I'm pretty sure experience plays a role in the conversion as well. For example, 2 guys at the same position with the same weight have different % conversion whether they're rookies or veterans.

So my question to you Greg is this, do you want us to add an experience column to your spreadsheet ?

Sure, go ahead. I wasn't sure that was going to play into it when I started, and I have not seen the case you've stated. I was afraid that was going to play a role...

[gstelmack]

I am tempted, once we get this info collated and reach some conclusions, to start a new thread with the fresh data.

A couple of things are clear so far:

- There are definite ranges of weights for each position (which we already knew). However, these ranges get a bit more detailed than we thought. It's clear that the WLB and SLB weight ranges do differ slightly. Still checking other positions.

- Position switching from can restrict what positions you switch to. I'm not sure my earlier post on this is complete, but I'm getting a very clear grasp of this picture now.

- Position switching from and weight combine to tell you how well you'll be able to switch. There are minor differences among detailed positions; for example, you'll get slightly different values for switching to FS vs. SS.

- Rookie vs. veteran may matter, but years as a veteran don't seem to. I've got a 3rd year and 7th year RB at the same weight with the same values at all positions.

- I think (not a proven conclusion yet) that there is an "ideal" weight for each position, and the difference between this and a player's actual weight determine how good the switch will be. At the very least there is a definite bell curve going, where light players and heavy players have similar difficulties switching, and players in the middle have less difficulty. Then there are penalties (bonuses as well?) based on what position you switch from. It's clear, for example, that a 220-lb QB and a 220-lb WR will have different value as a 220-lb RB.

More details once the spreadsheet has more data.

[gstelmack]

A bump (in case anyone else wants to contribute data) and an update:

I'm so far verifying my conclusions from above. I'm holding off on final conclusions until I get froggie's data to help fill in some blanks, but I hope to have something soon.

[fantastic flying froggies]

FYI, 2 1/2 teams done, one half left to go...

Also, it would be really good if we could get data from others as well...

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by fantastic flying froggies

Also, it would be really good if we could get data from others as well...

Agreed. Even with your teams, I'm still only going to have like 12 FBs. The end result will be more accurate with more teams. If I get time, I may do another team or two (I just generate a new fictional universe and run through my team. Takes about 1.5 hours total or so).