OT: Scouting reports in text sims. The next step.

[HornedFrog Purple]

One of the things that drives me nuts in OOTP is the scouting reports. I don't mean to pick on it in particular but generally they are all too general in every text sim I play.

Just listening to and watching the MLB draft, this is the kind of stuff I personally want as examples:

BODY SIMILAR TO MARQUIS GRISSOM. OPEN AT PLATE FROM BOTH SIDES. COLLAPSES BACK HALF. CREATES SOME BAT SPEED W/ STRENGTH. LINE DRIVE, GAPS TYPE HITTER. QUICKER STROKE AS RHH. GEARED FB. AVG RUNNER UNDERWAY. EASY THROWS, GOOD CARRY & ACCURACY. PLAYS HARD.

LONG FRAME. STRONG, THICK, ATHLETIC BODY. LONG ARMS. BIG HANDS & FEET. GOOD PITCHERS BUILD. SIMILAR TO ROGER CLEMENS. HIGH 3/4 TO OVER HEAD ARM SLOT. SOLID DELIVERY. GOOD EXTENTION ON RELEASE. FB EXPLODES LATE IN ZONE, RIDES IN ON RHH. ALSO PITCHES IN TO LHH. CB HAS BIG, 12-6 BREAK. SLIDER OCCASIONALLY TIGHT. EXCELLENT MOVEMENT & DECEPTION TO CHANGE UP. RHP W/ A BIG TIME ARM & DOMINANT STUFF TO BECOME A 1 OR 2 STARTER AT ML LEVEL. VERY GOOD MOUND PRESENCE. AGGRESSIVE APPROACH.

One thing to note is the comparison to another player currently in the fictional universe. Now of course there are people who don't want nor care about this kind of detail and are content with "He will deliver!" and that's fine.

Discuss.

[LionsFan10]

I agree, the scouting reports in most text sims are very, very basic. What you describe sound a lot better, but the question is can it be done? I'm sure it can, but if it can be done, why hasn't it?

Either way, I like you would like for better (i.e more indepth) scouting reports in future games.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple

One thing to note is the comparison to another player currently in the fictional universe. Now of course there are people who don't want nor care about this kind of detail and are content with "He will deliver!" and that's fine.

Bingo. Seeing something along the lines of "He reminds some of a young Joe Schmoe" (where Joe Schmoe is a fictional all-star) would both be helpful and rank high on the "hey, cool" scale.

[albionmoonlight]

If a game cannot do text reports in a way that actually sounds intelligent and fresh after many seasons of game play, then I would prefer numbers. A repetitive text report ends up getting glossed over by the gamer after he gets used to it anyway.

Kind of like cut scenes in console games. The first couple of times, you look at them and say--wow cool!. After you see them for more than a few times, you just button through them.

I don't want programers spending time on eye candy and/or "immersive" features that will become stale after a while.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Bingo. Seeing something along the lines of "He reminds some of a young Joe Schmoe" (where Joe Schmoe is a fictional all-star) would both be helpful and rank high on the "hey, cool" scale.

You know I think Madden 2004 actually does that when you scout a player a couple times. It will say "speed like Randy Moss" etc on some of them and that's a console game (and PC too).

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

If a game cannot do text reports in a way that actually sounds intelligent and fresh after many seasons of game play, then I would prefer numbers. A repetitive text report ends up getting glossed over by the gamer after he gets used to it anyway.

I think it's inevitable that they'll become stale eventually (but then again, doesn't "real world" sports writing become stale too after a while?).

But as someone who has been playing sports sims for a while and who has made a living as a sportswriter in the past, they can do much better than they are now. At the risk of potentially offending our European brothers, I find it odd that the makers of both EHM and OOTP absolutely refuse to hire some North American writers to work on their products.

[korme]

espn basketball also has player comparisons for the draft. but it's crappy.

1/3 of all centers in draft comparison: theo ratliff
1/3 of all centers in draft comparison: alonzo mourning
1/3 of all centers in draft comparison: elden campbell

very not-deep

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

If a game cannot do text reports in a way that actually sounds intelligent and fresh after many seasons of game play, then I would prefer numbers. A repetitive text report ends up getting glossed over by the gamer after he gets used to it anyway.

Kind of like cut scenes in console games. The first couple of times, you look at them and say--wow cool!. After you see them for more than a few times, you just button through them.

I don't want programers spending time on eye candy and/or "immersive" features that will become stale after a while.

A bit of my point was since we have the physical attributes (height/weight, timed 40, bench press what have you) why not do something with them?

The ratings can turn into descriptions as well.

The key component of a linebacker for example is how he reacts. He can have all the speed and strength in the world but that doesn't tell you how he plays the position.

[Honolulu Blue]

HFP: Please don't take this the wrong way, but the scouting reports you gave as examples strike me as being a step in the WRONG direction - describing the player's physical attributes rather than the results.

I'm bottom-line oriented. If I'm looking for a .300 hitter, it's irrelevant to me whether he looks like Willie Wilson or John Kruk. Some things, like "he's a hard worker" or "he looks a little out of shape" are useful in comments, more so than as numerical ratings.

I actually like OOTP's text descriptions. Basic? Yes. Repetitive? Certainly. Occasionally fractured syntax? Of course. But at least it tries to put the numbers into a brief description. FOF doesn't even try.

[Ksyrup]

Right up the alley of this thread:


Glorified gibberish?

---

By Rob Neyer
ESPN.com

The biggest surprise related to the amateur draft? That I received only one e-mail message like this:

• Rob, did you see this stuff?
  
  -- LEAN, WIRY STRONG. LONG ARMS. THIN WAIST. TAPERS TO LONG, STRONG LEGS
  
  -- LARGE FRAME. BROAD, SLOPED SHOULDERS. STRONG, DURABLE, OVERALL BUILD. MORE DEVELOPED LOWER HALF
  
  -- ROOM TO ADD MORE WEIGHT. BABY-FACED. MEDIUM-WIDE, SLOPED SHOULDERS. ESPECIALLY LONG ARMS. LONG TORSO. HIGH REAR
  
  You would think this is a scouting report for models ... but these are straight out of the MLB.com draft coverage. If you look at every report, there is more of that stuff than if a guy can get guys out or hit. Which is amazing to me.
  
  -- Olivier Paul-Hus

I have to admit, I could have spent hours looking at those "reports" (for lack of a better word) just for the sake of amusement. Thin waist? Baby-faced? High rear? In fairness to the reporters, in addition to the lengthy descriptions of body parts, we do also get a sense for how they actually play, if not necessarily how well. Here's the note about Yovani Gallardo, a high-school pitcher the Brewers drafted with their second-round pick (No. 46 overall):

COMMENT: TALL, LEAN, ATHLETIC BODY. SLENDER TORSO. STRONG, WELL DEVELOPED THIGHS & REAR. SIMILAR TO ESTEBAN LOIAZA. NO WINDUP, HIGH 3/4 DELIVERY. LIVE FB, MOST PLUS VELOCITY BORING INTO RHH, SINK WHEN DOWN, OCCASIONAL CUT ACTION. TIGHT ROTATION, DOWN 3/4, SNAPPING CB. ALSO THROWS STRAIGHT CHANGE. REPEATS DELIVERY WELL. CLEAN, BALANCED DELIVERY. LOOSE, VERY QUICK ARM W/ GOOD EXTENSION. AGGRESSIVE, COMPETITOR. MAINTAINS VELOCITY. FUTURE 15-20 GAME ML WINNER.

I appreciate the note about Gallardo's thighs and rear. What I don't appreciate is the prediction that he'll win 15-20 games in the major leagues. Does this scout have any idea how hard that is, to win 15 games in the major leagues? There are probably one or two pitchers per draft for whom that's a reasonable expectation (though of course more than one or two will actually do it), and if Gallardo were one of them he'd have been drafted a lot earlier than he was.


Two picks later, here's Princeton outfielder Brandon Szymanski, drafted by Cincinnati:

COMMENT: LONG LIMBED. RACE HORSE TYPE BODY. THIN ANKLES. LOOSE, LIVE, GRACEFUL ACTIONS. FULLY MATURED. RESEMBLES JON OLERUD. STRAIGHT UP, SLIGHTLY OPEN STANCE W/ NARROW SPREAD. HARD, LINE DRIVE CONTACT TO ALL FIELDS. TOUGH OUT. GAP PWR. BALL JUMPS. GOOD READS ON FLY BALLS. GLIDES TO BALL. PLAYABLE ARM WILL IMPROVE. FLIES 1ST TO 3RD. FEARLESS. CAN CARRY TEAM. HAS THE MAKINGS OF A 5-TOOL PLYR.

More on Szymanski in a moment. My single favorite comment -- granted, I read only a small percentage of the reports -- was this one, about a high school pitcher named Michael Schlact, who was drafted by the Rangers in the third round:

SAME BODY TYPE AS BRAD RIGBY.

Brad Rigby? The same Brad Rigby who won exactly five games in the major leagues, and retired with a 5.50 career ERA? Even if we know what "same body type as Brad Rigby" means, what good does that knowledge do us? My suspicion is that descriptions like that -- and most of the reports include a comparison to a major leaguer -- are simply there to help the reader form a mental image of the amateur player, which I suppose is interesting to a point. But where do you go from there?


Which is to say, what does all of it mean? Look at the report on Szymanski again. He's got a body like a race horse (thin ankles, et cetera). He resembles John Olerud. He's got a slightly open stance w/ narrow spread. (We also learn that Szymanski "can carry team," which would be interesting if every hitter drafted in the first dozen or so rounds couldn't do the same thing.) Great, but do any of those things suggest a successful professional career?


If you've ever wondered why teams are going after college players from big conferences, look at those scouting reports, which say very little about how good the players actually are. If a pitcher throws in the low 90s and posted great stats in the Pac-10, then you or I can guess that he's got a decent chance to pitch effectively as a professional, even if he's built like Eleanor Rigby. The rest of it seems awfully murky, though, doesn't it?


I'm not suggesting that scouts don't have a place in the game, or that some of them aren't awfully good at what they do. But you read those reports, and you understand just why at least a few baseball executives think they have to add at least a modicum of precision to the process.
Senior writer Rob Neyer writes four columns per week during the baseball season. This spring, Fireside will publish Rob's next book, "The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers" (co-written with Bill James); for more information, visit Rob's Web site. Also, click here to send a question for possible use on ESPNEWS.

[mordhiem]

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple

You know I think Madden 2004 actually does that when you scout a player a couple times. It will say "speed like Randy Moss" etc on some of them and that's a console game (and PC too).

Yeah, except it still says "As accurate as Peyton Manning" or "Ferocious in the tackle, like Ray Lewis" 25+ years after these players have retired.

Surely it would be a simple algorithm to program? The game looks at the player's scouted potential and compares the attributes with current pros in the database, finds a close match and then says "Very mobile, like Frak Smith".